Wisconsin notes

[merrycilantro]

Wis 175 could be the alternative for Milwaukee to Fond du Lac, and 45 from there to Oshkosh...might even get Wis 23 between Fond du Lac and Plymouth paid for by just making it a toll...

I'm not certain how open road tolling would work, or if a state could in theory choose to start their tolling venture with open road?

[Joe The Dragon]

Tolls in the news again...what are the odds that we're going to start to see them, especially I'd assume starting from the IL Line up to Milwaukee? I saw an infographic on the hypothetical cost of how much a toll would be between the WI cities. Attempting to unpack the thought, it'd take cars off the Interstates and force those who want to travel free to use secondary highways (which admittedly will cause more wear and tear on them, but money saved from the hypothetical tollways should then be free to use on them, right?

and then people will just take the frontage road

[Milwaukee, WY]

What about managed lanes? They work well enough in places like Texas, Colorado and Virginia. Theoretically you could put tolls on the added lanes in some instances, and 100% tolling in other places where drivers would have less incentive to shunpike (I.e., less direct parallel routes...)

[merrycilantro]

OK...for the dumb (i.e. me...) what is shunpike?

and Joe, good thought, I didn't think about frontage roads.

Are we talking like the express lanes in the Chicagoland area? I could see something like that for sure in the Milwaukee area. I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing adding lanes and then tolling only those.

[Big John]

OK...for the dumb (i.e. me...) what is shunpike?

A free road to take to shun a turnpike (toll road).

[merrycilantro]

aaaah i see what you did there.

[SEWIGuy]

People aren't going to use the frontage roads just to avoid tolls. 

"Shunpiking" seems to be more of a thing when it comes to long distance drives where people don't want to rack up big payments on the Indiana Toll Road or Ohio Turnpike.

For shorter routes that are relatively cheap, I just don't think it's going to happen.

[The Ghostbuster]

I'd support tolls if they were congestion-priced. Maybe have the inner-most lane (preferably a new one) be the toll lane, and the other general purpose lanes remain free. I don't think full blown toll roads (even ones that are charged electronically) will be implemented in Wisconsin, but I could be wrong.

[merrycilantro]

What is congestion-priced, or did you just explain that?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

What is congestion-priced, or did you just explain that?

Prices will vary based on congestion, so you pay more in tolls if the overall traffic is heavier at a given time. You're basically paying for the convenience of skipping the line.

[The Ghostbuster]

That is exactly what I meant, TheHighwayMan394. I believe that is the type of tolling that is most likely to come to Wisconsin. It would likely get more support than full blown toll roads in the state. Of course, I have no idea what form tolling in Wisconsin will come in, if it is implemented at all.

[dvferyance]

I don't listen to talk radio, so I wouldn't know what they say. In any event, I don't have a problem with roundabouts. For those who do, maybe they should get together to found an anti-roundabout coalition.

They did; it's the "Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'" thread.

Seriously? They're not hard to understand. I got my 66 year old mother to understand how they work with a 30 second drive through one. Yield to traffic from the left. How hard is that??

Read tradephoric's thread.  His selection of data and defense thereof is...unique...but lots of decent info in there.

Right. I was pretty pro-roundabout for a long time. And I still have this piece of me that's pretty sure things will improve as roundabouts become more common. But the data he's presented is hard to ignore. These 2x2 (and larger) roundabouts just don't seem to perform well. They are far from deathtraps, but signals aren't exactly deathtraps either.

His main argument has become more about the cost of small-time crashes (no injuries except to the cars involved), of which there is almost universally more of than at signals.

I am not saying they don't work sometimes they do. My point was the they just not good for semis becasue of the difficulty it is to drive on through. And I do think the argument that they are better becasue while they increase minor accidents they reduce fatal crashes is just nuts. An increase in accidents means our insurance goes up it's never fun to be in an accident even a minor one.

[skluth]

And I do think the argument that they are better becasue while they increase minor accidents they reduce fatal crashes is just nuts. An increase in accidents means our insurance goes up it's never fun to be in an accident even a minor one.

I think fewer deaths is always preferable to fewer accidents

[peterj920]

The first WISDOT sign recognizing a town that I've seen on I-41

[SEWIGuy]

I don't listen to talk radio, so I wouldn't know what they say. In any event, I don't have a problem with roundabouts. For those who do, maybe they should get together to found an anti-roundabout coalition.

They did; it's the "Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'" thread.

Seriously? They're not hard to understand. I got my 66 year old mother to understand how they work with a 30 second drive through one. Yield to traffic from the left. How hard is that??

Read tradephoric's thread.  His selection of data and defense thereof is...unique...but lots of decent info in there.

Right. I was pretty pro-roundabout for a long time. And I still have this piece of me that's pretty sure things will improve as roundabouts become more common. But the data he's presented is hard to ignore. These 2x2 (and larger) roundabouts just don't seem to perform well. They are far from deathtraps, but signals aren't exactly deathtraps either.

His main argument has become more about the cost of small-time crashes (no injuries except to the cars involved), of which there is almost universally more of than at signals.

I am not saying they don't work sometimes they do. My point was the they just not good for semis becasue of the difficulty it is to drive on through. And I do think the argument that they are better becasue while they increase minor accidents they reduce fatal crashes is just nuts. An increase in accidents means our insurance goes up it's never fun to be in an accident even a minor one.

Hold on.  You think it's nuts because it's not accurate?  Or because you would rather have a few more people die because you don't want to be an a minor accident.

Regardless, something like 30% of vehicle crashes at roundabouts in Wisconsin are single vehicle crashes due to people not figuring out how to navigate them.  Experience will improve that.

https://www.citylab.com/design/2017/03/the-other-side-of-roundabouts-more-crashes/518484/

[triplemultiplex]

Hey, take this dead-horse beating roundabout conversation to that one boring thread where it belongs.

[triplemultiplex]

Hey, speaking of roundabouts, check this out:


Remember the roundabout that existed at the temporary end of the US 12 freeway north of Baraboo?  When the new freeway around Baraboo opened, they tore out the temporary connection, roundabout included.  They left behind, however, the landscaping that was once in the middle of the roundabout.  This little cluster of red cedars will mark the roundabout's former location for the a long time.  Look for them as you're passing on by.

[MNHighwayMan]

Remember the roundabout that existed at the temporary end of the US 12 freeway north of Baraboo?  When the new freeway around Baraboo opened, they tore out the temporary connection, roundabout included.  They left behind, however, the landscaping that was once in the middle of the roundabout.  This little cluster of red cedars will mark the roundabout's former location for the a long time.  Look for them as you're passing on by.

You just found someone's favorite roundabout!

[Revive 755]

On a recent trip to the Milwaukee area I took the new exit from EB I-794 to the Lakefront (Exit 1F).  IMHO the new design is awful enough that the ramp should have been removed entirely and Lakefront traffic directed to use the Jackson Street/Van Buren Street ramp (Exit 1E) (although in a better world, the previous design would have been left alone).  By the time one waits for the stoplight at Lincoln Memorial at the end of the ramp, then for the stoplight at Clybourn, it might be faster to exit at Jackson Street.

[SEWIGuy]

So WI-80 ends at a roundabout at its intersection with US-10 south of Marshfield. Any other highways end at roundabouts?  WI-142 at I-41/94 near Kenosha?

[Big John]

WI 22 at US 41 by Oconto ends in a roundabout.

[mgk920]

So WI-80 ends at a roundabout at its intersection with US-10 south of Marshfield. Any other highways end at roundabouts?  WI-142 at I-41/94 near Kenosha?

WI 76 ends at a roundabout in Oshkosh.

Also, WI 172 ends at a roundabout in Hobart (suburban Green Bay).

Mike

[sparker]

Remember the roundabout that existed at the temporary end of the US 12 freeway north of Baraboo?  When the new freeway around Baraboo opened, they tore out the temporary connection, roundabout included.  They left behind, however, the landscaping that was once in the middle of the roundabout.  This little cluster of red cedars will mark the roundabout's former location for the a long time.  Look for them as you're passing on by.

You just found someone's favorite roundabout!

Are you implying that one or more contributors think that the only good roundabout is a dead roundabout?

[peterj920]

Should also note the 3 Freeway/expressways that end at roundabouts in the state. 

US 53 in Eau Claire just south of I-94

US 10 at Central Avenue in Marshfield

US 2 just east of the Bong Bridge in Superior

All 3 also have dual flashing yellow lights above the roundabout signs due to the end of the high speed roads. 

[Mrt90]

So WI-80 ends at a roundabout at its intersection with US-10 south of Marshfield. Any other highways end at roundabouts?  WI-142 at I-41/94 near Kenosha?

There isn't a roundabout there.