ICC Intercounty Connector

[ARMOURERERIC]

How expensive is ICC's annual debt servicing costs?

[cpzilliacus]

How expensive is ICC's annual debt servicing costs?

I am not qualified to answer, but here are the latest toll forecasts and bond amortization schedules for the entire MdTA.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post editorial: Beltway traffic near the Intercounty Connector has eased. Coincidence?

TRAFFIC ON the Beltway is getting better, and traffic on the Beltway is getting worse. That information, shared in a AAA study this week, is not much of a revelation. The real news: Where congestion has decreased, commuters may owe their thanks to Maryland's Intercounty Connector.

The toll road connecting Montgomery and Prince George's counties was a local transportation hot topic for almost a half-century. In 2011, the artery finally opened. The roadway, as we said many times over the course of the decades-long debate, always had the potential to benefit countless commuters who live and work between the two counties. Now, there's data to back that up.

Though many of the Beltway's busiest segments have only gotten busier, AAA's study shows, on others the flow of cars has thinned – and not where the agency expected. When AAA consulted traffic engineers about its findings, they said the Intercounty Connector might have something to do with the change. A closer look from the Suburban Maryland Transportation Alliance bore that out: Major interstate segments served by the connector have seen traffic decrease by as much as 13 percent since the connector opened, 5 percent on net. Segments unaffected by the artery saw an increase of 2 percent.

[TheOneKEA]

I'm still sore about the discontinuous ICC trail but I am pleased to see that actual data is demonstrating the value and utility of the ICC as it is currently built. I will be interested to see if the MdTA has to use congestion pricing on the road at any point over the next several years if its popularity and usage continues to rise.

What are the chances that the link to Midcounty Highway will be built within the next 10-15 years?

[cpzilliacus]

I'm still sore about the discontinuous ICC trail but I am pleased to see that actual data is demonstrating the value and utility of the ICC as it is currently built. I will be interested to see if the MdTA has to use congestion pricing on the road at any point over the next several years if its popularity and usage continues to rise.

The MdTA's board could just increase the tolls across-the-board during the peak AM and PM periods.

What are the chances that the link to Midcounty Highway will be built within the next 10-15 years?

Good question, and I wish I knew the  answer.  I do know at least some of the usual suspects in Montgomery County's old anti-ICC cottage industry are absolutely against any extension of Mid County  Highway at the north or south  ends (the south  end being the  one that would tie in to the ICC just west of the Winters Run tunnel).

[cpzilliacus]

For those that have an interest, a copy of the 1983 Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the ICC and the Rockville Facility can now be found online, courtesy of Google. Aside from some of the maps that were more than a standard page width and not completely scanned, the document is otherwise apparently intact (it is a lot smaller than the 1997 DEIS and the 2006 approved FEIS).

It can  be found here at just over 400 pages.

[cpzilliacus]

Apparently there is litigation pending or under way regarding the newest section of the ICC, Contract D/E.   

The May 4 meeting agenda of the MDTA Capital Committee contains this:

VOTE TO GO INTO CLOSED SESSION
- Discuss pending litigation involving SHA Contract No.
AT3765D60 -  MD200, Intercounty Connector Contract D/E
Modified Design Build Project

[MrAndy1369]

May sound like a simple question, but why can't they just extend I-370 from I-270 to I-95/U.S. 1 and discard the MD-200 designation?

[hotdogPi]

It's a toll road; if it was converted now, it would not receive federal funding, so there is no benefit. (This rule does not apply to older toll roads or to toll bridges.)

[The Ghostbuster]

They should throw out that rule. If a toll road is up to Interstate Standards, it should be allowed to have an Interstate designation, if one is desired.

[MrAndy1369]

Gotcha. Didn't realize that toll freeways could not become toll interstates. I vaguely remember seeing tolled interstates before, but maybe I was mixing them up with bridges/tunnels.

[jwolfer]

A lot of older toll roads were grandfathered in as interstates (PA turnpike is i76 for most of it's route).  Also some toll roads got an interstste number to allow speed limits above 55 when NMSL was first repealed only interstates could be above.55 mph( Illinois i88).

I would think if a state applied for interstate designation there should be nothing legally stopping it.. I would like the Florida turnpike to be a southern i91 to match the secret SR number.. and Central Florida toll roads could be x04 or x91

Z981

[74/171FAN]

I merged the "I-370/MD 200?" thread with the general ICC thread.  -Mark

[Mapmikey]

A state can also pay back all federal money spent on the toll road from design through opening and then the toll road can have an interstate shield.

This actually makes no sense to me really.  Not sure why it matters who paid for a road...if the road meets interstate standards, a shield should be allowed.  I guess it is the perception that "my federal tax dollars paid for this so it shouldn't be toll mentality"

[Beltway]

A lot of older toll roads were grandfathered in as interstates (PA turnpike is i76 for most of it's route).  Also some toll roads got an interstste number to allow speed limits above 55 when NMSL was first repealed only interstates could be above.55 mph( Illinois i88).

Some fairly new tollroads have been designated as Interstate routes.

Built since 1990 --
IL I-355 North-South Tollway
PA I-376 Beaver Valley Expressway, 18-mile segment on either side of the mainline PA Turnpike.

[cpzilliacus]

A state can also pay back all federal money spent on the toll road from design through opening and then the toll road can have an interstate shield.

Seems convoluted, though 

Maryland is certainly on track to pay-off the federal GARVEE bond balances that were used to fund part of the construction cost of MD-200. 

Does that mean that  MDOT can then apply for an Interstate route number in place of MD-200? 

Though I doubt that they will.

This actually makes no sense to me really.  Not sure why it matters who paid for a road...if the road meets interstate standards, a shield should be allowed.  I guess it is the perception that "my federal tax dollars paid for this so it shouldn't be toll mentality"

I agree - and people that come with  the "it's already paid for" claim have obviously never heard of the cost associated with maintaining and operating and repairing highways that frequently carry heavy volumes of traffic.

[Mr_Northside]

Gotcha. Didn't realize that toll freeways could not become toll interstates.

Yeah... I don't think that statement is really true.  As others mentioned, there were a bunch of "grandfather" type situations, but there also have been recent additions of toll roads as interstates.

Of course, they have the rules against tolling an interstate that was built as a free road (there's a lot of experience in PA here with I-80) - or any free road (it doesn't have to be an interstate)....   Does it really work the other way around too? 
I'm guessing that building an interstate-standard toll road doesn't guarantee it would get approved for an interstate number if requested - but I don't think it's blatantly not allows.
I'm wondering if new non-interstate toll roads (like the ICC) are sticking with State Route number is because the agency doesn't care enough to pursue and interstate designation.

[Alps]

I thought the ICC was intentionally designed with interstate-substandard features to please nimbys

[Mapmikey]

Of course, they have the rules against tolling an interstate that was built as a free road (there's a lot of experience in PA here with I-80) - or any free road (it doesn't have to be an interstate)....   Does it really work the other way around too? 

Check out this letter denying VA 895 interstate status (courtesy Scott's website):  http://www.roadstothefuture.com/Route-895-FHWA-letter.jpg

[Revive 755]

Some fairly new tollroads have been designated as Interstate routes.

Built since 1990 --
IL I-355 North-South Tollway
PA I-376 Beaver Valley Expressway, 18-mile segment on either side of the mainline PA Turnpike.

Plus the currently planned but yet to be constructed I-490 in Chicagoland

[Alps]

Of course, they have the rules against tolling an interstate that was built as a free road (there's a lot of experience in PA here with I-80) - or any free road (it doesn't have to be an interstate)....   Does it really work the other way around too? 

Check out this letter denying VA 895 interstate status (courtesy Scott's website):  http://www.roadstothefuture.com/Route-895-FHWA-letter.jpg

See, this is why we need a Like button.

[davewiecking]

I thought the ICC was intentionally designed with interstate-substandard features to please nimbys

It's possible the lefthand shoulders of the main route between I-370 and I-95 are not wide enough for a 3 lane Interstate. The only part that was rerouted from the half-century old planned route was actually routed away from a stream and put in the backyards of a set of townhouses, but even with the curves necessary to do that the road has a 60 mph speed limit.

However, the east end (between I-95 and US-1) is most certainly not built to Interstate standards, so it seems the last mile or so would still be MD-200. Might as well give the entire toll road the same number.

[froggie]

I believe the law has changed enough since 2001 to where VDOT could theoretically re-ask FHWA to sign VA 895 as an Interstate. SAFETEA-LU (2005) and MAP-21 (2012) made a number of changes in terms of tolling on Interstate highways.  If VDOT were to eliminate tollong on VA 895 east of Laburnum Ave and toll just the James River Bridge, there would DEFINITELY be nothing stopping them from asking for an Interstate.

I'm pretty sure that the ICC was built to Interstate-standard...even the inside shoulders on the narrow-median part under Olde Mill Run and over Rock Creek.  I do not believe there is anything (besides local/statewide political will) preventing them from asking for Interstate designation to I-95.

CP:  it's not just "paying back the Federal GARVEE bond balances".  Under the old system, they would have to completely refund the Federal highway funding used to cover those GARVEE bonds....in short, use state money instead of FHWA money to pay them back.

[cpzilliacus]

I believe the law has changed enough since 2001 to where VDOT could theoretically re-ask FHWA to sign VA 895 as an Interstate. SAFETEA-LU (2005) and MAP-21 (2012) made a number of changes in terms of tolling on Interstate highways.  If VDOT were to eliminate tollong on VA 895 east of Laburnum Ave and toll just the James River Bridge, there would DEFINITELY be nothing stopping them from asking for an Interstate.

I'm pretty sure that the ICC was built to Interstate-standard...even the inside shoulders on the narrow-median part under Olde Mill Run and over Rock Creek.  I do not believe there is anything (besides local/statewide political will) preventing them from asking for Interstate designation to I-95.

The only part that would seem to not comply with Interstate standards is the eastern terminus at U.S. 1 on the southern edge of unincorporated Laurel, which has a "continuous flow" signalized intersection instead of an interchange of some sort.

CP:  it's not just "paying back the Federal GARVEE bond balances".  Under the old system, they would have to completely refund the Federal highway funding used to cover those GARVEE bonds....in short, use state money instead of FHWA money to pay them back.

Given that the road is doing well in terms of collected revenue, that is something they probably could do, but the MDTA's management and board might well ask if there's any benefit to doing so, what with big-money projects like the Gov. Harry Nice Bridge replacement and an anticipated bridge deck replacement on the "old " (1952) span of the WPL Bridge coming in the fairly near future.

[Beltway]

I believe the law has changed enough since 2001 to where VDOT could theoretically re-ask FHWA to sign VA 895 as an Interstate. SAFETEA-LU (2005) and MAP-21 (2012) made a number of changes in terms of tolling on Interstate highways.  If VDOT were to eliminate tollong on VA 895 east of Laburnum Ave and toll just the James River Bridge, there would DEFINITELY be nothing stopping them from asking for an Interstate.

I am still waiting on my requests from last fall on VA-288 and VA-895.  I was informed a month ago that the district office is doing impact studies.