Largest Cities Without an Interstate Connection

[sprjus4]

I have actually been following highway issues for "many decades" and anyone that can make a statement like that is full of baloney

What upgrades are programmed and planned for US-58 that would bring it closer to interstate standards over the next 10-15 years?

At least the I-87 corridor has had a feasibility study conducted, and there is an active push to get it funded piece by piece. Projects near Hertford are programmed for 2025, and more to come over the next couple of decades. It's not going to get built in one project, but it's going to get done piece by piece. I-73 in Virginia is a clear example of what happens when you try to get it done in one project - it sits dormant for decades. They're now deciding to go piece by piece (as seen with the MSC), and actually have a shot of getting some of it done for once. I've seen nothing in regards to bringing US-58 to interstate standards.

(or their hobby is VI-87).

You just can't help yourself can you? Couldn't one say you're equally as invested in it as much as you post about it? You may not be supportive of the project, but you've invested a similar amount of time into the highway and posting about it as I have.

[sprjus4]

I-71 was built when rural Interstate highway construction cost $1 million per mile.

Rural construction in Texas is around $10 million per mile. For 80 miles of new construction, $800 million. To give some cushion, we'll say about $1 billion needed to complete an interstate grade highway between Austin and Houston. TX-130 cost $2 billion for 80 miles, though it has a much larger footprint (extremely wide median due to 85 mph speed limit) and was mostly new location construction, whereas a US-290 or TX-71 upgrade would use existing highway, and likely have a smaller 46 foot median, comparable to the US-281 project proposed.

[Beltway]

I have actually been following highway issues for "many decades" and anyone that can make a statement like that is full of baloney

What upgrades are programmed and planned for US-58 that would bring it closer to interstate standards over the next 10-15 years?

STIPs don't run for 10 or 15 years, the SYIP is for 6 years.  The segment between the Suffolk Bypass and Bowers Hill is either in or nearly in the program.

I-71 was built when rural Interstate highway construction cost $1 million per mile.

Rural construction in Texas is around $10 million per mile.

I don't believe that, not if you are referring to rural Interstate highway construction on new location. 

$25 million at the very minimum is the going rate, usually higher.

[sprjus4]

STIPs don't run for 10 or 15 years, the SYIP is for 6 years.

Long range plan. Upgrading US-58 between I-95 and Bowers Hill to interstate standards isn't in the long range plan. When it is, my support will turn to that project. Until then, I-87 is the only planned southern connection from Hampton Roads, vanity or not, that's what's planned, and that's what I'll support. Naturally, I do believe US-58 is the better routing, but Virginia hasn't done anything or talked about anything, so I-87 is the next best option. There's no direct route NC can upgrade within their borders that would have any benefit to them in the process. You could go NC-11 / US-13, though A) it barely serves anything unlike US-64 / US-17, and B) it would likely be all new terrain construction, way more expensive than upgrading US-64 / US-17.

Nothing so far for US-58 in Virginia.

The segment between the Suffolk Bypass and Bowers Hill is either in or nearly in the program.

That would be a step, but so far it's only in the long range plan, and has a steep price tag for at least a decade away. It's not funded yet, and I wouldn't say it's nearly in the SYIP. There's no still environmental documentation or detailed design that's happened with that project yet, and nothing is currently funded. There was an EA underway, though funding was pulled.

I don't believe that, not if you are referring to rural Interstate highway construction on new location.

I'm referring to upgrading existing roadway. A project would consist of constructing continuous one-way 2-lane frontage roads on either side, raising existing US-290 over cross roads over 2-3 miles and having turnarounds underneath and slip ramps from the mainline to the new frontage roads.

$25 million at the very minimum is the going rate, usually higher.

TX-130 was constructed for about $25 million per mile. Construction is cheaper down south and out west, even as close as North Carolina actually it's roughly $20 - $30 million for new location, and as low as $10 - $15 million per mile for upgrading existing roadway.

This would explain the "low-balled" costs for "V"I-87 you've questioned - rural construction is just generally cheaper in NC, and have generally remained static for at least a decade. Virginia's costs interestingly have been sky-rocketing in comparison over the past decade it seems. A rural interchange in Virginia is $25 - $35 million, whereas you can see on built in North Carolina for as little as $7 million in some cases, even nowadays, on an interstate highway.

[Beltway]

STIPs don't run for 10 or 15 years, the SYIP is for 6 years.

Long range plan. Upgrading US-58 between I-95 and Bowers Hill to interstate standards isn't in the long range plan.

What long range plan?  Few states have any long range plan as in a funded planning tool.

I don't believe that, not if you are referring to rural Interstate highway construction on new location.

I'm referring to upgrading existing roadway. A project would consist of constructing continuous one-way 2-lane frontage roads on either side, raising existing US-290 over cross roads over 2-3 miles and having turnarounds underneath and slip ramps from the mainline to the new frontage roads.

I commented on how expensive several Texas Interstate upgrade projects were in the last year, that were announced on this newsgroup, like about $200 million for about 5 miles of highway.  No major bridges, just what was in several interchange upgrades.

Texas has 29 million people now and some huge metro areas.  That all tends to increase the cost of doing business.

$25 million at the very minimum is the going rate, usually higher.

TX-130 was constructed for about $25 million per mile.

Opened in segments in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2012.  Costs have greatly increased since then every where.

Construction is cheaper down south and out west, even as close as North Carolina actually it's roughly $20 - $30 million for new location, and as low as $10 - $15 million per mile for upgrading existing roadway.

Materials, labor and equipment are fairly consistent in cost in rural areas around the country.

A rural interchange in Virginia is $25 - $35 million, whereas you can see on built in North Carolina for as little as $7 million in some cases, even nowadays, on an interstate highway.

$16 million for the Courtland interchange.  That is fairly typical in this part of the country.

[sprjus4]

What long range plan?  Few states have any long range plan as in a funded planning tool.

The 2045 LRTP is currently being developed... the 2040 LRTP is already completed.

The HRTPO Freight Transportation Advisory Committee recommended the following projects that were "corridors that experience significant truck delay" and were not apart of the 2040 LRTP be evaluated for the 2045 LRTP, including I-87. US-58 was not on this list, though US-58 between the Suffolk Bypass and Bowers Hill was in the 2040 LRTP and will likely carry over to the 2045 LRTP. It does not mean I-87 will be apart of the 2045 LRTP, but it shows it's at least being evaluated and will be considered. It may well become one of high priority projects along with the High Rise Bridge expansion to 8-lanes, Third Crossing, US-58 connector, and Bowers Hill interchange, though that will all depend on how the HRTPO views I-87. If it's continued to be viewed as a "direct interstate link" to I-95 South, then it will likely have higher priority. If they see past the "vanity" part of it as you've made quite clear through dozens of posts, and that it will not divert key truck traffic, it may score lower and not be a "high priority" project, or even end up on the LRTP at all. We'll find out in the next year or so when it's officially completed.

• Bowers Hill Interchange
• I-64 Peninsula 29-mile segment between Richmond and HR MPAs
• I-87 (Dominion Blvd to Interstate standard)
• (CHES) Greenbrier Pkwy from Volvo Pkwy to Woodlake Dr
• (CHES/NOR) I-464 from Poindexter St to I-264
• (CHES/SUF) I-664 from I-64 & I-264 to College Dr
• (HAM) Mercury Blvd from Power Plant Pkwy to I-64
• (IW) Benns Church Blvd to ECL Smithfield (Rte 664) to Church St S
• (JCC/WMB) Route 199 from John Tyler Hwy to Jamestown Rd
• (NN) Oyster Point Rd from Jefferson Ave to I-64
• (NOR) 4th View St from I-64 to Ocean View Ave
• (NOR) Ballentine Blvd from I-264 to Virginia Beach Blvd
• (NOR) Boush St/Waterside Dr from St Pauls Blvd to Brambleton Ave
• (NOR) Chesapeake Blvd from I-64 to Little Creek Rd
• (NOR) Hampton Blvd from 21st St to Little Creek Rd
• (NOR) I-64 from I-564/Little Creek Rd to Military Hwy
• (NOR) Military Hwy from I-264 to Virginia Beach Blvd
• (NOR) Monticello Ave from St Pauls Blvd to Virginia Beach Blvd
• (NOR) Newtown Rd from I-264 to Virginia Beach cityline
• (NOR) St Pauls Blvd from I-264 Ramp/MacArthur Mall to Brambleton Ave
• (NOR) Tidewater Dr from City Hall Ave to Norview Ave
• (NOR) Virginia Beach Blvd from Monticello Aven to Azalea Garden Rd
• (NOR/VB) Northampton Blvd from Kempsville Rd to Diamond Springs Rd
• (PORT) Frederick Blvd from I-264 to Turnpike Rd
• (PORT/NOR) I-264/DTT/Berkley Bridge from Portsmouth Blvd to Brambleton Ave
• (SUF) Godwin Blvd from Suffolk Bypass to Kings Fork Rd
• (SUF/NN) I-664/MMMBT from College Dr to Chestnut Ave
• (VB) First Colonial Rd from Old Donation Pkwy to Greak Neck Rd
• (VB) Independence Blvd from Holland Rd to Columbus St
• (VB) Military Hwy from Providence Rd to Indian River Rd

https://www.hrtpo.org/uploads/docs/P4-Freight_Project_Prioritization_Survey.pdf

I commented on how expensive several Texas Interstate upgrade projects were in the last year, that were announced on this newsgroup, like about $200 million for about 5 miles of highway.  No major bridges, just what was in several interchange upgrades.

It varies. The I-69 corridor seems to have success with cheap $10-$15 million per mile upgrades on the contrary. What specific highways are you referring to? If they're in the Austin, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas/Fort-Worth metros, that would explain why. And if they're toll projects, I wouldn't expect less.

Opened in segments in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2012.  Costs have greatly increased since then every where.

The 13-mile US-64 Asheboro Bypass cost $356 million ($27 million per mile) and is currently under construction.
The 18.5-mile US-74 Shelby Bypass cost $284 million ($15 million per mile) and is currently under construction.
The 9.4-mile I-73 segment between I-840 and US-220 north of Greensboro cost $176 million ($19 million per mile) and opened in 2017.
The 10-mile US-70 Havelock Bypass cost $221 million ($22 million per mile) and begins construction late this year or early next year.
The 8-mile I-140 completion in Wilmington cost $204 million ($26 million per mile) and opened in 2017. This project also constructed two 2-lane 1.5 mile bridges over the Cape Fear River.
The 20-mile US-70 Goldsboro Bypass cost $235 million ($12 million per mile) and opened phases between 2011 and 2016.

I could continue, though I think these examples are enough to show construction costs have still been kept down in North Carolina, even on current rural freeway construction projects. And these projects were all or are being built to interstate standards, and some of them are part of future interstates or were built as an interstate highway segment.

This will likely continue to show as I-42, I-795, and I-87 are built through eastern NC over the 1-2 decades, and other rural freeway segments are continuing to be build.

$16 million for the Courtland interchange.  That is fairly typical in this part of the country.

Yet when I used $15 million as a base cost of an interchange on US-17, you claimed it was way low-balled just to make a "vanity" interstate cheaper and should be $25 - $30 million?

[webny99]

There isn't a basis to claim those examples are irrelevant. If anything, they aren't superlative enough; Austin to Houston is needed to a greater extent than any of those except arguably I-71.

I-71 was built when rural Interstate highway construction cost $1 million per mile.  The segment between Cincinnati and Columbus would not be built today if it did not already exist.

I know, but the point has nothing to do with whether it exists. The point is that you can't argue that it's not needed.

[Beltway]

There isn't a basis to claim those examples are irrelevant. If anything, they aren't superlative enough; Austin to Houston is needed to a greater extent than any of those except arguably I-71.

I-71 was built when rural Interstate highway construction cost $1 million per mile.  The segment between Cincinnati and Columbus would not be built today if it did not already exist.

I know, but the point has nothing to do with whether it exists. The point is that you can't argue that it's not needed.

I never "argued that it's not needed", just that it would not be built in today's environment.

There would be ways to address the traffic needs, such as widening projects on I-70, I-675 and I-75.

[Beltway]

What long range plan?  Few states have any long range plan as in a funded planning tool.

The 2045 LRTP is currently being developed... the 2040 LRTP is already completed.

HRTPO includes very little (the eastern end) of Southampton County and none of Greensville County.

A US-58 freeway between Bowers Hill and I-95 would be a VDOT project and initiated by them, because much of the length is not in HRTPO's area.

US-58 was not on this list, though US-58 between the Suffolk Bypass and Bowers Hill was in the 2040 LRTP and will likely carry over to the 2045 LRTP.

Again, that is HRTPO's plan, and VDOT is participating in those projects, and would involve making the expressway part of US-58 into a freeway and would add capacity to the Bowers Hill Interchange.

The soon-to-be-awarded 6-lane widening and access management of 4 miles of US-58 west of the Suffolk Bypass is not a -freeway- (sorry roadgeeks) but it will provide a welcome improvement of that segment.

Don't assume that a new project has to "bubble up" in a long range plan for 20 or 25 years before it can get into a TIP.  It could go into EIS/location studies fairly soon if VDOT wanted to initiate that.

The VTrans2040 Plan for the Corridors of Statewide Significance, Southside Corridor (US-58) mentions those projects.  That is the long range plan for VDOT, and from what it says there really isn't a demand for a continuous freeway west of Suffolk.  While 14,000 AADT and 20% trucks sounds in the ballpark, the existing highway is high enough in design, and traffic growth is slow enough, that there isn't any real impetus to pursue that at this time (sorry roadgeeks).

There is no mention of anything in N.C. being used to supplement that corridor; since the Virginia state government has no control or power over road projects in N.C., then there would be no logical reason for them to consider something that might or might not exist in 2045 as having any influence over this COSS.

(list of HRTPO long-range projects)

That shows how much demand there is in the area for highway expansion in that area.  Given the magnitude of bridge construction needed including the number of major bridges, if a constant-dollar unit cost figure was computed for each pay item in the engineer's estimates of the projects, you would wind up with at least double and perhaps triple the total cost as compared to an equivalent population metro in N.C.

There is no data in NCDOT's history that would provide any estimate as to their cost for a 4,000 to 8,000 foot long underwater tunnel under a major shipping channel.  Virginia has had 8 such projects and has 2 under construction.

(list of N.C. projects varying between $15 and $27 million per mile)

That is a wide variation and due to national and local economic conditions the contractors can bid much lower than average when they really need the work.

I have quoted the $4 million per mile on the US-17 relocation in Chesapeake as a good example of this.  It was completed in 2005 and it could easily have been bid at twice or more that in a different economy.

The Triangle Expressway is little more than a rural freeway with 3 lanes each way and involves no major bridges.
-- 19 miles built at $1.1 billion or $58 million per mile, completed in 2012.
-- 30 miles planned at $2.3 billion or $77 million per mile (the Triangle Expressway Southeast Extension)

I think these examples are enough to show construction costs have still been kept down in North Carolina,

Construction costs are not "kept down" or "not kept down", they are what they are.  It is a matter of local and regional unit costs for labor, raw materials, finished materials, and equipment; and the historical results of engineer's estimates for projects being bidded on by contractors and then seeing what the market demands.

[adwerkema]

What about the route between Hampton Roads and Philadelphia? Each has an incorporated population of about 1.6 million. The shortest route involves US-13, US-113, and DE-1 through the Delmarva Peninsula. This route is also the fastest (unless Richmond, DC, and Baltimore have virtually no traffic).

[LM117]

What about the route between Hampton Roads and Philadelphia? Each has an incorporated population of about 1.6 million. The shortest route involves US-13, US-113, and DE-1 through the Delmarva Peninsula. This route is also the fastest (unless Richmond, DC, and Baltimore have virtually no traffic).

You might find these interesting:

https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/I-99_Final_Report_-_VDOT_website.pdf

https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/SJR184ReportforVDOTwebsite.pdf

[sprjus4]

This route is also the fastest (unless Richmond, DC, and Baltimore have virtually no traffic).

Even at midnight, I-64 to I-95 is 35 minutes slower.

I plan on trying it eventually though, just to see what I'm "missing out" on by taking US-13, US-113, and DE-1.

Richmond isn't a big issue on traffic though, thanks to I-295. Baltimore isn't too much an issue - it's mostly the mess that is I-95 through Northern Virginia and Southern Maryland, though mostly Northern Virginia.

And I'm not going to pay $37 for a HO/T trip (this was the toll the other day between Stafford and I-495).

The only thing about US-13 and US-113 that gets annoying is the continuous 55 mph speed limit, but other than that, still better considering there's no good interstate alternative, and it's traffic-free. Once on DE-1 though, back up to 65 mph and cruising at interstate speeds.

If the I-64 and I-95 routing was closer in and only 5-10 minutes slower, and a bypass existed around DC / Baltimore, I'd probably use that despite the additional mileage / time. But 35 minutes - 2 hours slower isn't worth it on an average trip - unless I purposely wanted to go that way for a specific reason.

If at least Virginia would raise the rural stretches of US-13 to 60 mph, and maybe Maryland with US-113 and US-13, it would be slightly better.

[michravera]

Fresno is going to be high on the list with since the primary freeway is CA 99.  But Sacramento comes to mind primarily since it is also on CA 99.

Fresno-San Jose has no direct Interstate connection. In addition to the fact that both cities have only a tangential connection to the I-system, the shortest distance on numbered highway is almost twice as long as the air distance. No one has even credibly proposed any route or combination of routes that would connect the two of them on the I-system (outside of the "Fictional Highways" forum). At the moment, in order to get to avoid traffic controls, one must travel nearly 2.5 times the air distance.

Fresno-Las Vegas is a shorter distance than Las Vegas-Phoenix and has no direct I-system connection. Although there are proposals for an I-system upgrade of CASR-99 to I-7 or I-9 and an upgrade of CASR-58 to I-40, at the moment, you can't get from Fresno to Las Vegas stoplight free without adding about an hour to your route.

[sprjus4]

Phoenix and New York are the largest in the country actually, unless you back track. The gap is north of Phoenix.

[Beltway]

And I'm not going to pay $37 for a HO/T trip (this was the [I-95 HOT] toll the other day between Stafford and I-495).

The 15 trips I have taken in the last 6 months have averaged $18 rounded, and those mostly in or near peak hours.  The very highest was $27 rounded and in peak afternoon hours, and I don't use the HOT lanes in low hours and there were no low tolls in that group, the lowest was $13 rounded.  I download transaction spreadsheet data from EZPassVA and keep the records, so this is derived from actual customer data.

There were at least 2 trips on the edge of peak hours where the VMS times were good enough that I stayed in the general purpose lanes and paid $0 toll.  These of course don't appear on the spreadsheet at all!

You don't have to use the lanes for the entire distance.  If I got "tired" of paying for the full distance I could ride the GP lanes about halfway up and then enter the HOT lanes going north, and going south enter the HOT lanes and then exit to the GP lanes about halfway down.

The only thing about US-13 and US-113 that gets annoying is the continuous 55 mph speed limit, but other than that, still better considering there's no good interstate alternative, and it's traffic-free. Once on DE-1 though, back up to 65 mph and cruising at interstate speeds.

This was influenced by a major transportation barrier, the Chesapeake Bay, and if not for a 17-mile ocean strait crossing, we wouldn't be talking about a more direct Interstate highway route than I-64 and I-95 between Norfolk and Philadelphia.

It will take a ton of money to build out the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel to a full 4-lane facility throughout.  The original facility cost $200 million in 1964, the parallel trestle cost $197 million in 1999, the Parallel Thimble Shoal Tunnel Project is under construction at $756 million, and the Parallel Chesapeake Channel Tunnel Project is unfunded and could be as far out as 2035, but is similar enough to the current project that the cost in 2018 dollars would be about the same.  AADT is 8,800 with 9% large trucks.

[Beltway]

Phoenix and New York are the largest in the country actually, unless you back track. The gap is north of Phoenix.

What is the issue there?

I-17 to I-40 to I-44 to I-70 to I-76 to I-81 to I-78

[sprjus4]

Currently, Transurban reports the toll for the I-95 Express Lanes between Springfield and Garrisonville Rd is $27.20 and there's no major incidents currently occurring. A little while ago, it was $25. I'll report if it gets higher.

Like I said, $20 - $30.

A quick check at 511virginia.org reports the same number adding up the prices on the overhead sign.

Updates:

Update @ 2:30pm - Toll at $30.00 - Typical conditions / no major incidents
Update @ 2:50pm - Toll at $31.10 - Typical conditions / no major incidents
Update @ 3:00pm - Toll at $31.95 - Typical conditions / no major incidents
Update @ 3:10pm - Toll at $31.55 - Typical conditions / no major incidents
Update @ 3:35pm - Toll at $32.60 - Typical conditions / no major incidents
Update @ 4:40pm - Toll at $33.35 - Typical conditions / no major incidents (A quick check now shows I-495 at $18.10, making an entire I-95/I-495 trip $51.45)

This was from Friday, June 21 - a typical Friday with no major incidents. I recorded the HO/T toll from I-495 to Stafford. These are the usual prices I see when I check, and see when driving through the area.

Note the highest price also included a check on I-495, which showed an entire trip on the system at 4:40pm on a regular, non eventful Friday was $51.45.

[sprjus4]

Phoenix and New York are the largest in the country actually, unless you back track. The gap is north of Phoenix.

What is the issue there?

I-17 to I-40 to I-44 to I-70 to I-76 to I-81 to I-78

Slightly out of the way... 50 miles additional, 15 minutes slower... could work though.

It's similar to the Phoenix to San Diego example... an all interstate trip is roughly 50 additional miles to back track to I-10.

[Beltway]

This was from Friday, June 21 - a typical Friday with no major incidents. I recorded the HO/T toll from I-495 to Stafford. These are the usual prices I see when I check, and see when driving through the area.

You just never stop chumming the waters, do you? 

Heading south on a Friday afternoon in the summer would see much higher rates than the average weekday in a year.

I provided a real world example of a long distance traveler making a lot of I-95 trips for such a person, and mostly in and around peak hours.  If you want, I will do that for 2018 as well.

The 15 trips I have taken in the last 6 months have averaged $18 rounded, and those mostly in or near peak hours.

[sprjus4]

Heading south on a Friday afternoon in the summer would see much higher rates than the average weekday in a year.

I've traveled I-95 on Friday afternoons in the summer, and I barely notice a difference in traffic volumes and congestion. It's horrible any time of the year. I notice similar toll rates in non-summer times of the year too.

I'll do the same recording during non-summer months, and see. Until that time comes and I can do that recording... this is what I'm seeing of the Express Lanes.

[Beltway]

Heading south on a Friday afternoon in the summer would see much higher rates than the average weekday in a year.

I've traveled I-95 on Friday afternoons in the summer, and I barely notice a difference in traffic volumes and congestion. It's horrible any time of the year. I notice similar toll rates in non-summer times of the year too.
I'll do the same recording during non-summer months, and see. Until that time comes and I can do that recording... this is what I'm seeing of the Express Lanes.

So you have driven the route hundreds of times in the last year?  Or you spend hours and hours sitting at your computer running apps?  That is what you make it sound like.

I posted my experience as an intermittent long distance user, and that matches the discussion about traveling between Norfolk and Philadelphia, where I entered the discussion.

A regular commuter would have a very different experience and higher average tolls if they traveled in normal rush hours.  Of course one poster on this forum has cited what he pays using both systems every day, very expensive, but he said that it is an "absolute no brainer" economically given the amount of additional time he gets and the job efficiencies he gets, and that he is not affluent.

An intermittent long distance user could have opportunities modify their trip somewhat to avoid the highest peak hours, and I do that.  I try to avoid the center of rush hour if possible, and avoid Fridays if possible.

Any long distance traveler thru the Baltimore and Washington areas is being shortsighted if they don't make at least some effort to avoid the very highest peaks.

[sprjus4]

So you have driven the route hundreds of times in the last year?  Or you spend hours and hours sitting at your computer running apps?  That is what you make it sound like.

Not hundreds of times, but I go up to North Virginia every few months, or a few times per month, it all depends on the situation.

When I go, it's usually to visit people I know that live up there, and those are people who use I-95 at least 1-3 times per week. I get my knowledge from my own experiences, watching pricing on Transurban's website, and from their experiences living there and driving the corridor frequently.

traveling between Norfolk and Philadelphia, where I entered the discussion.

A trip between Norfolk and Philadelphia uses US-13, US-113, and DE-1. I-95 isn't involved in that, except on the very northern end. The $14 toll on the CBBT is far more worth it than $20-$30 on the HO/T lanes. And it's not even freeway and -I'm- saying that.

Of course one poster on this forum has cited what he pays using both systems every day, very expensive, but he said that it is an "absolute no brainer" economically given the amount of additional time he gets and the job efficiencies he gets, and that he is not affluent.

If you figure $60 per day, 5 days a week, and for 45 weeks out of the year - that's $13,500 per year on HO/T tolls.

That's -a lot- of money dedicated towards tolls, something I would never do (I don't even use it at all), nor would 99% of the people in the HO/T lanes.

That's certainly not someone poor if they're spending that much money on tolls when free options exist.

An intermittent long distance user could have opportunities modify their trip somewhat to avoid the highest peak hours, and I do that.  I try to avoid the center of rush hour if possible, and avoid Fridays if possible.

I try to, but it's not always that easy.

I've used the lanes before during rush hour, and it's nice, but I only use them if I'm carpooling.

[Beltway]

So you have driven the route hundreds of times in the last year?  Or you spend hours and hours sitting at your computer running apps?  That is what you make it sound like.

Not hundreds of times, but I go up to North Virginia every few months, or a few times per month, it all depends on the situation.
When I go, it's usually to visit people I know that live up there, and those are people who use I-95 at least 1-3 times per week. I get my knowledge from my own experiences, watching pricing on Transurban's website, and from their experiences living there and driving the corridor frequently.

15 times in 6 months?  I posted my experience on I-95, ranging $13 to $27 and an average of $18, mostly in and around peak hours.  Twice $0 because the GP lanes were free flowing, that would bring that average down.

The $14 toll on the CBBT is far more worth it than $20-$30 on the HO/T lanes.

It is not "$20-$30", stop posting propaganda.

In many off-peak times you wouldn't pay anything because the VMS would show full speed travel times all the way.

Of course one poster on this forum has cited what he pays using both systems every day, very expensive, but he said that it is an "absolute no brainer" economically given the amount of additional time he gets and the job efficiencies he gets, and that he is not affluent.

If you figure $60 per day, 5 days a week, and for 45 weeks out of the year - that's $13,500 per year on HO/T tolls.
That's -a lot- of money dedicated towards tolls, something I would never do (I don't even use it at all), nor would 99% of the people in the HO/T lanes.
That's certainly not someone poor if they're spending that much money on tolls when free options exist.

So what if it is the difference between having a 110K job or a 60K job?  Before you smirk keep in mind those salaries are not high for the Washington area, and you have multitudes of people willing to take a deal like that.

[sprjus4]

It is not "$20-$30", stop posting propaganda.

For the stretch between Stafford and I-495, it is at least $20 most of the time.

Already refuted many times.

And saying $20 is being nice. My research from June 21 indicates it was up to $33.35 one-way, and I'll continue to research outside of summer months to see the toll then.

Sorry to ruin your love-affair with Transurban, VDOT, and HO/T lanes.

[sprjus4]

Twice $0 because the GP lanes were free flowing, that would bring that average down.

In many off-peak times you wouldn't pay anything because the VMS would show full speed travel times all the way.

If you don't use the HO/T lanes - that doesn't go into an average toll rate for the HO/T lanes.

The HO/T lanes are a seperate facility from the mainline GP lanes and don't mix together. You're either on one or the other. If you're averaging tolls for the HO/T lanes, every trip needs to come from the HO/T lanes. And if you're averaging rush hour tolls, all the toll data you average needs to be from rush hour, not two times you didn't even use the facility, and times that were outside of rush hour.

Stop trying to sugar coat your data to make the "average" toll look cheaper.