AARoads Forum

You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

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I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Boy do I miss the old Wachovia Bank! I'd shut down Exxon and/or BP due to the oil spill(s).

The Tobacco industry

Just one?  Would it matter if I used to work there?   :-D

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Yikes. I didn't know about any of that. Good to know.
I'm having trouble picking just a single company. There's been a number of companies I've been mad at, but I would want to know others have had similar experiences before making a choice.

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Wells Fargo is near the top of my list too, thanks to all the harassing phone calls they made when they were ostensibly looking for someone else, who "owed" them.

Huawei

Maybe NBC or FOX. Both networks are very biased and report opinions, not facts.

SM-G965U

Wawa. Then all the delusional people who think it's better than Sheetz would have to shut up.  :bigass:

Quote from: hbelkins on August 26, 2019, 03:22:09 PM
Wawa. Then all the delusional people who think it's better than Sheetz would have to shut up.  :bigass:

That was truly bizarre to me how big a following Wawa had when I lived in Florida for three years.  I'd just much rather go get a sandwich from Publix and gas from 7/11. 

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 02:34:35 PM
Maybe NBC or FOX. Both All networks are very biased and report opinions, not facts.

FTFY.  Best to use multiple news outlets and try to decipher the truth from balancing all of them together.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 02:34:35 PM
Maybe NBC or FOX. Both networks are very biased and report opinions, not facts.

SM-G965U

I don't watch NBC very often, but Fox News mostly reports the news. My very anti-Republican wife relies upon it for much of her local news. Now, Fox Opinionators do offer opinions and expected to do so. That's most of their prime time and late night lineup. NBC has been caught in a hoax or two, but their news department seems to make at least a token effort at the facts. They have some commentary shows (mostly on Sundays) and those are loaded with opinions and I would expect them to be.
Now MSNBC does freely mix opinion (often led by an agenda) with facts and chooses not to report upon facts that don't fit their agenda.
By contrast, I am pretty sure that, if a poll showed Trump was up, both NBC and Fox would report it. Maybe they would emphasize different reasons for the success, but they would both report it. During the 2016 Democrat primary season, it seemed to me, if anything, that Fox was cheering for Sanders. With the benefit of hindsight, I can see today that the reason that Fox was covering Sanders in what seemed like a favorable way was that Sanders was actually "saying stuff". Maybe stuff with which I (and presumably many Fox viewers) didn't agree, but he gave Fox something to show. A soundbite or a more lengthy quote, but something to put on the air. Same went for Trump. That wasn't Clinton's campaign strategy (which as nearly as I can tell was more like "Stay quiet. It's your turn. Let opponents bury themselves.") But, people wanted to hear from her and she never really said anything besides "It's my turn" and "Did you hear what my opponent said?...". That and an occasional insult aimed not at her opponent, but at her opponent's supporters and ... well, you know what happened. Insult my candidate and maybe I won't vote for him. That could work out for you. Insult me and maybe my wife won't vote for you! That won't work out for you!

McDonalds or Walmart. They're dishonest and inconsiderate companies.

Getting rid of Walmart would allow for a massive increase in locally owned stores of all kinds. The more money that stays in your local community, the better.

SM-G965U

Given their recent troubles, I'd get rid of either GM or Chrysler, and spin off all their respective divisions into independent companies. No more badge engineering, and they'd have an even better chance to succeed.

Wells Fargo is the best.

Bank of America sucks, they charge you too much and they have really bad customer service.

Quote from: Henry on August 26, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Given their recent troubles, I'd get rid of either GM or Chrysler, and spin off all their respective divisions into independent companies. No more badge engineering, and they'd have an even better chance to succeed.

Isn't GM pretty healthy again by this point?  I would say Chrysler needs to diversify their lineup but they have a strong presence in truck and SUV markets.  They seem to have the market cornered with large niche coupes and sedans (Challenger/Charger).  I would argue the Challenger has more in common with T-Bird or Monte Carlo or a Mustang or Camaro. 

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 26, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Wells Fargo is the best.

I doubt any of the people who were victimized in the account fraud scandal would agree with you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scandal

Quote from: Henry on August 26, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Given their recent troubles, I'd get rid of either GM or Chrysler, and spin off all their respective divisions into independent companies. No more badge engineering, and they'd have an even better chance to succeed.

GM is just the worst when it comes to badge engineering. Off the top of my head I can think of the Suburban/Yukon/Escalade, Encore/Trax, and the Enclave/Traverse (until 2017). Not to mention that several of their vehicles are based off Opel's cars, as they owned that, too (until 2017).

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
Getting rid of Walmart would allow for a massive increase in locally owned stores of all kinds.
SM-G965U

Right, because someone is holding a gun to consumers' heads and forcing them to buy from Amazon and big-box national retailers instead of shopping at locally-owned stores.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 10:14:03 PM

Quote from: Henry on August 26, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Given their recent troubles, I'd get rid of either GM or Chrysler, and spin off all their respective divisions into independent companies. No more badge engineering, and they'd have an even better chance to succeed.

GM is just the worst when it comes to badge engineering. Off the top of my head I can think of the Suburban/Yukon/Escalade, Encore/Trax, and the Enclave/Traverse (until 2017). Not to mention that several of their vehicles are based off Opel's cars, as they owned that, too (until 2017).

Badge engineering is gradually morphing into "platform sharing."   I would doubt an ATS buyer would cross-shop a Camaro even though they are technically both Alpha Platform cars.  Even companies like Subaru have moved to a single platform line.  At minimum vehicle platforms are more customizable than they were I the past. 

Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 26, 2019, 10:19:08 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
Getting rid of Walmart would allow for a massive increase in locally owned stores of all kinds.
SM-G965U

Right, because someone is holding a gun to consumers' heads and forcing them to buy from Amazon and big-box national retailers instead of shopping at locally-owned stores.

People are almost always going to pick the option that is the most convenient & cheap, and that option is Walmart a lot of the time. Without Walmart, people will pick the next best option, and in many places that would end up being a locally owned store or regional chain. Where I live there isn't a secondary chain like Publix, either. 

I might change my entry to the NCAA the new topic on relegation for my gears grinding on how wretched of an organization it really is. 

Do you really want to know?

I know of one business that needs to go to the bottomless pit, where it will freefall for ever and ever, never hitting bottom.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 10:30:22 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 26, 2019, 10:19:08 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
Getting rid of Walmart would allow for a massive increase in locally owned stores of all kinds.
SM-G965U

Right, because someone is holding a gun to consumers' heads and forcing them to buy from Amazon and big-box national retailers instead of shopping at locally-owned stores.

People are almost always going to pick the option that is the most convenient & cheap, and that option is Walmart a lot of the time. Without Walmart, people will pick the next best option, and in many places that would end up being a locally owned store or regional chain. Where I live there isn't a secondary chain like Publix, either. 

Without Walmsrt, they go to Target. Or Kmart. Or Bradlees. Or Caldor. Or Ames...

Basically, WalMart is just one in a long line of large department store chains. Eventually, there'll be something else besides WalMart taking over the shopping landscape..and that's basically Amazon.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 10:30:22 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 26, 2019, 10:19:08 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 26, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
Getting rid of Walmart would allow for a massive increase in locally owned stores of all kinds.
SM-G965U

Right, because someone is holding a gun to consumers' heads and forcing them to buy from Amazon and big-box national retailers instead of shopping at locally-owned stores.

People are almost always going to pick the option that is the most convenient & cheap, and that option is Walmart a lot of the time. Without Walmart, people will pick the next best option, and in many places that would end up being a locally owned store or regional chain. Where I live there isn't a secondary chain like Publix, either.

True, but irrelevant to my point.  "Convenient and cheap," particularly the latter, is a consumer's choice if an independent or secondary-chain store is available.  It isn't forced on him.

Particularly galling to me are people who will visit a local brick-and-mortar location (be it independent or chain) to examine and try out a product and get all their questions answered by a salesperson, but then make the actual purchase online.  Of course that's often the cheapest option; the online retailer isn't carrying the costs of inventory and sales staffing, of which these people expect to take advantage for free.

I've been a Wells Fargo customer for over 20 years.  Now it's true that account scandal was a big problem, especially for those (presumably now-former) customers who were on the receiving end, but I have not had a problem with Wells Fargo.

I'll bite on one not yet mentioned:  Monsanto.  Between their aggressive lawsuits against innocent farmers, their R&D tactics, and their big contributions to the poisoning of the earth and crops (despite their claims, pesticides are not all positive), they're the one I'd pick.

Actually, before Wal-Mart there was just a quilt of regional chains who sold the same Asian sourced goods Wal-Mart does today.   The reason Wal-Mart won that survival of the fittest contest was not related to Asia, but that it was willing to use tight logistics and harsh dealing with said suppliers to push prices to the absolute lowest possible, while many of those that died out were fat, dumb and happy and happy to be fat, dumb and happy, and this resulted in higher prices and lower service.  It is a myth that Wal-Mart put out "mom and pop" or that Wal-Mart's predecessors did any more or less for "the local area". 

As to what company I would wish out of business if I could, as a cigar smoker, the twin giants of Imperial Tobacco (AKA Altadis, which sells slave made products) and Scandinavian Tobacco (AKA  General Cigar).  These twin companies are using the anti-smoking people to push through rules that, when fully implemented, will mean that they can do business as usual but every other company will be pushed out of the industry.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 27, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
Actually, before Wal-Mart there was just a quilt of regional chains who sold the same Asian sourced goods Wal-Mart does today.   The reason Wal-Mart won that survival of the fittest contest was not related to Asia, but that it was willing to use tight logistics and harsh dealing with said suppliers to push prices to the absolute lowest possible, while many of those that died out were fat, dumb and happy and happy to be fat, dumb and happy, and this resulted in higher prices and lower service.  It is a myth that Wal-Mart put out "mom and pop" or that Wal-Mart's predecessors did any more or less for "the local area". 

I'd say Walmart is more responsible for killing Kmart than it is any locally-owned businesses.

Any of the companies owned by the Trump family. Crooked and corrupt to the core, they have zero ethics and no shame.

Walmart used to pride itself in carrying American-made products. That's why I purchased a TV there around 1997. It was American-made.

But no more. Try finding American-made electronics there now.

Quote from: froggie on August 27, 2019, 08:05:57 AM
I've been a Wells Fargo customer for over 20 years.  Now it's true that account scandal was a big problem, especially for those (presumably now-former) customers who were on the receiving end, but I have not had a problem with Wells Fargo.

I'll bite on one not yet mentioned:  Monsanto.  Between their aggressive lawsuits against innocent farmers, their R&D tactics, and their big contributions to the poisoning of the earth and crops (despite their claims, pesticides are not all positive), they're the one I'd pick.

Um, Monsanto is gone, see: Bayer.

I have my reservations about Walmart.  But, as I see it, they are following the logic of capitalism within a context that is defined by our reluctance to support a strong safety net or to insist on high labor standards, so I don't really see a strong justification for applying the corporate death penalty to them.  My choice would be Equifax, with its long history as a bad actor both before and after implementation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act of 1973.

Electric utilities and phone companies are pretty much universally hated - except by a few people on Facebook who laughably defend them.

Quote from: bandit957 on August 27, 2019, 01:59:54 PM
Electric utilities and phone companies are pretty much universally hated - except by a few people on Facebook who laughably defend them.

I'd speculate shuttering PG&E after what happened to Paradise during the Camp Fire would be very popular in California. 

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 26, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Bank of America sucks, they charge you too much and they have really bad customer service.

Yeah, my bank vote would go to BoA as well.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2019, 10:50:33 PMWithout Walmart, they go to Target. Or Kmart. Or Bradlees. Or Caldor. Or Ames...

Bradlees, Caldor and Ames have been gone for years if not decades and Kmart seems to be presently on life-support... although there's still two of them near where I live.

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 27, 2019, 03:22:30 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2019, 10:50:33 PMWithout Walmart, they go to Target. Or Kmart. Or Bradlees. Or Caldor. Or Ames...

Bradlees, Caldor and Ames have been gone for years if not decades and Kmart seems to be presently on life-support... although there's still two of them near where I live.

There was another store like this called Gold Circle. It's been gone for years too.

Quote from: bandit957 on August 27, 2019, 03:23:40 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 27, 2019, 03:22:30 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2019, 10:50:33 PMWithout Walmart, they go to Target. Or Kmart. Or Bradlees. Or Caldor. Or Ames...

Bradlees, Caldor and Ames have been gone for years if not decades and Kmart seems to be presently on life-support... although there's still two of them near where I live.

There was another store like this called Gold Circle. It's been gone for years too.

Also, there was a store like this called Van Leunen's.

Quote from: bugo on August 27, 2019, 11:21:50 AM
Any of the companies owned by the Trump family. Crooked and corrupt to the core, they have zero ethics and no shame.

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about that. They'll go bankrupt just like (almost) everything else he touches.

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 27, 2019, 03:22:30 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2019, 10:50:33 PMWithout Walmart, they go to Target. Or Kmart. Or Bradlees. Or Caldor. Or Ames...

Bradlees, Caldor and Ames have been gone for years if not decades and Kmart seems to be presently on life-support... although there's still two of them near where I live.

All the 4-5 Kmarts in my city closed down around 2016, all around the same time. The last example, Target, simply isn't as common as Walmart. A city has to have 50k or so residents to have one unless they are some sort of major retail destination like Branson. Cities between 50-200k only seem get one, as opposed to 5+ supermarkets and even more "neighborhood markets".

SM-G965U

Quote from: hbelkins on August 27, 2019, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: SP Cook on August 27, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
Actually, before Wal-Mart there was just a quilt of regional chains who sold the same Asian sourced goods Wal-Mart does today.   The reason Wal-Mart won that survival of the fittest contest was not related to Asia, but that it was willing to use tight logistics and harsh dealing with said suppliers to push prices to the absolute lowest possible, while many of those that died out were fat, dumb and happy and happy to be fat, dumb and happy, and this resulted in higher prices and lower service.  It is a myth that Wal-Mart put out "mom and pop" or that Wal-Mart's predecessors did any more or less for "the local area". 

I'd say Walmart is more responsible for killing Kmart than it is any locally-owned businesses.

I'd say Kmart is more responsible for killing Kmart than any other business, local or global.

Kmart never was all that great, to be quite frank.

American Express they give you zero breaks if you miss a payment ridiculous.

Quote from: bugo on August 27, 2019, 11:21:50 AM
Any of the companies owned by the Trump family. Crooked and corrupt to the core, they have zero ethics and no shame.

Shut down the "Clinton Foundation". 

The prince of corruption and should be busted thru RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) statutes.

Disney.  They've gotten too big and their brand is largely a giant IP circlejerk.  Hard to believe that 40 years ago they were on the verge of bankruptcy.

Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2019, 03:00:56 PM

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 26, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Bank of America sucks, they charge you too much and they have really bad customer service.

Yeah, my bank vote would go to BoA as well.

Same goes for me.

Quote from: thspfc on August 26, 2019, 09:10:07 PM
McDonalds or Walmart. They're dishonest and inconsiderate companies.

I've never had a problem with McDonalds, but totally agree with Walmart; its customer service sucks, its stores are drab as hell, and the products it sells are shitty, to say the least. Target has a much cheerier atmosphere, and while it may not be as common as Walmart, it succeeds in kicking major ass in the retail game.

Quote from: GaryV on August 27, 2019, 05:24:22 PM
Kmart is more responsible for killing Kmart than any other business

:clap:

Quote from: Henry on August 27, 2019, 11:19:55 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2019, 03:00:56 PM

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on August 26, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Bank of America sucks, they charge you too much and they have really bad customer service.

Yeah, my bank vote would go to BoA as well.

Same goes for me.

Quote from: thspfc on August 26, 2019, 09:10:07 PM
McDonalds or Walmart. They're dishonest and inconsiderate companies.

I've never had a problem with McDonalds, but totally agree with Walmart; its customer service sucks, its stores are drab as hell, and the products it sells are shitty, to say the least. Target has a much cheerier atmosphere, and while it may not be as common as Walmart, it succeeds in kicking major ass in the retail game.

Despite Walmart being a lot more common, Target is a whole lot less crowded and therefore the lines are a lot shorter and it's less annoying the spend a long time there. I'll even go as far as to say that Target isn't as cold as your refrigerator, like Walmart is.

Uhh, not my local Target.

Quote from: GaryV on August 27, 2019, 05:24:22 PM
Kmart is more responsible for killing Kmart than any other business

What other businesses did they kill?  ;-)

Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:42:55 PM

Quote from: GaryV on August 27, 2019, 05:24:22 PM
Kmart is more responsible for killing Kmart than any other business

What other businesses did they kill?  ;-)

Sears, or at least sped up the process substantially. 

Quote from: froggie on August 27, 2019, 08:05:57 AM

I'll bite on one not yet mentioned:  Monsanto.  Between their aggressive lawsuits against innocent farmers, their R&D tactics, and their big contributions to the poisoning of the earth and crops (despite their claims, pesticides are not all positive), they're the one I'd pick.

(biting my tongue.  MUST NOT COMMENT .)


Chase.  I don't have an account with them, but had to cash a check that was drawn on Chase at one of their branches. $8 Highway robbery. But the worst part is that whilst cashing the check, they tried getting me to open a checking account with them.  Uh.. I have a checking account that has no fees whatsoever, not even overdrafts. Why would I need their menu of fees? (The reason I had to cash the check is that my bank is online only, and I could have used the app, but the money would take four days to be credited to my account, and I needed gas right then.)

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 28, 2019, 02:33:16 PM
Despite Walmart being a lot more common, Target is a whole lot less crowded and therefore the lines are a lot shorter and it's less annoying the spend a long time there. I'll even go as far as to say that Target isn't as cold as your refrigerator, like Walmart is.

My problem with Target is the same problem I have with Meijer, and had with Kmart -- prices are higher than Walmart.

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 27, 2019, 03:22:30 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2019, 10:50:33 PMWithout Walmart, they go to Target. Or Kmart. Or Bradlees. Or Caldor. Or Ames...

Bradlees, Caldor and Ames have been gone for years if not decades and Kmart seems to be presently on life-support...

Exactly.  They're all businesses that had their heyday, but trailed off and died for whatever reason.  People transitioned from those stores to the stores we have now.  It wasn't all that long ago where no one would have ever thought Kmart would be in the position they are in now.  Then again, how about Woolworths, or Kiddie City?  People's tastes change. 

And while we think of Walmart as some million pound goliath that is trying to shut down everyone, it itself was just a single store at one point: Walton's 5 and 10.  Mr. Walton had a vision.  If some little independent store with just an owner and 2 employees has the same vision, some day that could be the goliath that overtakes Walmart.

Quote from: thspfc on August 26, 2019, 09:10:07 PM
McDonalds or Walmart. They're dishonest and inconsiderate companies.

The only reason you mentioned these companies is because they're the most well known companies in their industries.  Do you really think Burger King and Kmart gives their part employees $20 an hour and full benefits?

I've known enough Walmart employees to think of that company at a whole different level as it relates to caring for their staff.  I've only ever known one person working for Walmart who had anything good to say about them as an employer.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Comcast. There may have been a hint upthread, but I don't think anybody has actually come out and said that they are the scum of the earth.

Full disclaimer: My wife was formerly employed by that scum of the earth for many years.

Quote from: Mark68 on August 28, 2019, 05:10:19 PM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Comcast. There may have been a hint upthread, but I don't think anybody has actually come out and said that they are the scum of the earth.

Agree there, and lets add Dish Network to the list.

I hardly watch live TV anymore, and the only time I do is during the Super Bowl or similar event. The customer service of just about any company in the industry is usually downright awful.

Many of the same companies offer Internet, and they simply rip me off by providing speeds far slower than what I'm paying for. Have any of these companies taken advantage of the repeal of Net Neutrality?

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 28, 2019, 06:30:35 PM
they simply rip me off by providing speeds far slower than what I'm paying for. Have any of these companies taken advantage of the repeal of Net Neutrality?

I work in the cable industry, so I'm wondering about this.  How do you know your speed is less than what you're paying for?  Are you using a company-provided modem, or are you using a retail modem?  Have you checked your transmit and receive levels by going into the modem diagnostics?  Have you checked for packet lost by pinging the web from your computer's command prompt?  Is your computer hard-wired to the modem, or are you running on Wi-Fi only?  What have you done to rule out wiring or equipment issues in order to be confident that the speed coming to your house from the mainline is less than what you're paying for?

I said Chase in my previous post.

I'd like to change that to AT&T.  I've gotten screwed over by them 3 times.  Twice for selling service that wasn't available, and once for double billing.

Only One?


I would have to say the entirety of the Comcast Corporation.  Including Xfinity, NBC, Universal, etc.


If I could do multiple, it would be about 90+ cable TV channels that have no business existing.

Quote from: TEG24601 on August 30, 2019, 06:59:31 PM
If I could do multiple, it would be about 90+ cable TV channels that have no business existing.

Pretty sure all of them are useful in some way.

I would have allowed GM to go Chapter 7/liquidation when they were in their deepest trouble a few years ago.  They had been actively selling off divisions for many years before then.  Any of the remaining remnants with any value would have then been taken over by other companies and they were have continued on a much stronger, better position.

I'd also put Sears Holdings and JCPenney out of their misery.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on September 01, 2019, 11:26:27 AM
I'd also put Sears Holdings and JCPenney out of their misery.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Sears/Kmart put out of their misery, but I can't even conceive of where I'd shop if JCPenney closed.  Everywhere else is either more expensive or lower quality, and I will never, ever shop for clothes online.

Quote from: hbelkins on August 28, 2019, 03:22:22 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 28, 2019, 02:33:16 PM
Despite Walmart being a lot more common, Target is a whole lot less crowded and therefore the lines are a lot shorter and it's less annoying the spend a long time there. I'll even go as far as to say that Target isn't as cold as your refrigerator, like Walmart is.

My problem with Target is the same problem I have with Meijer, and had with Kmart -- prices are higher than Walmart.

I'm happy to pay a few dollars more or whatever, because Walmart is so up its own ass it feels like it doesn't even recognize its customers as people anymore. Besides the fact that there are entire shifts with zero cashiers (just self checkout, which I don't normally mind, but it's sort of a pain in the ass if you have more than a few dozen items), there is zero effort into making the stores comfortable to be in. The shelves are always way too close together in the grocery area, so if there's someone else shopping at the same time as you, you have to wait in line just to get through an aisle.

But the most obnoxious thing Walmart has done lately is put these stupid screens everywhere showing their surveillance cameras. Dumb, because that means if you want to steal you can observe the camera angle and hide your movements so that they're not visible (this is why casinos keep their camera angles secret, even from the staff). But if they want to be stupid, that's their own business. No, the problem is that they have a motion detector on them that emits this loud ching when it detects motion, to draw attention to the monitor. Yes, you like to spend money on masturbatory technology, I see you there, Walmart. However, this becomes infuriating when I'm looking for a product–common at Walmart because they don't leave well enough alone and rearrange the entire damn store every 6 months–and so while I'm searching for something across a few aisles, already pissed because I can't find what it is I'm looking for, every time I turn a corner CHING! CHING! CHING! Last time, I finally got so pissed off at the chinging that I just left without it and ordered it off of Amazon*.

Fortunately we have a grocery chain called Crest in Oklahoma City that is competitive with Walmart on price and is a much more pleasant experience. The Norman Crest has been around for about 7 years at this point and they have only rearranged the shelves once, and that was because Oklahoma liquor laws changed and they needed more inventory space for booze.

*Amazon is one that I think is getting to the point where it would be better for everyone if it just goes away. They've done a great job with me as a customer, but my experience as one of their vendors has been hellish enough that I'm not selling through them again. They've lost $207 worth of my inventory and seem content not to bother looking for it, sent out the wrong item to a customer and when they returned it damaged charged me for the loss, instructed me to ship product to a non-existent warehouse so I had my shipment returned by USPS, and on top of it all, they took high enough fees that my profit margin shrank to a mere 3%, meaning I lost money by selling on Amazon. Fuck that noise.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 02, 2019, 03:25:42 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on August 28, 2019, 03:22:22 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 28, 2019, 02:33:16 PM
Despite Walmart being a lot more common, Target is a whole lot less crowded and therefore the lines are a lot shorter and it's less annoying the spend a long time there. I'll even go as far as to say that Target isn't as cold as your refrigerator, like Walmart is.

My problem with Target is the same problem I have with Meijer, and had with Kmart -- prices are higher than Walmart.

I'm happy to pay a few dollars more or whatever, because Walmart is so up its own ass it feels like it doesn't even recognize its customers as people anymore. Besides the fact that there are entire shifts with zero cashiers (just self checkout, which I don't normally mind, but it's sort of a pain in the ass if you have more than a few dozen items)

I found that out the hard way yesterday morning. The Walmart Neighborhood Market in my area is open from 6am-12am (used to be 24/7, but crime changed that), so I stopped by there around 6:30am yesterday to beat the crowd and pick up more than a few things. When I got to the registers, only the self-checkouts were open. I flat out asked the woman keeping watch over the self-checkouts if anyone was working the registers. She told me that the cashiers don't come in until 7:30am.

Funny thing is that I've seen her work registers before...

Quote from: LM117 on September 02, 2019, 11:06:40 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 02, 2019, 03:25:42 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on August 28, 2019, 03:22:22 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 28, 2019, 02:33:16 PM
Despite Walmart being a lot more common, Target is a whole lot less crowded and therefore the lines are a lot shorter and it's less annoying the spend a long time there. I'll even go as far as to say that Target isn't as cold as your refrigerator, like Walmart is.

My problem with Target is the same problem I have with Meijer, and had with Kmart -- prices are higher than Walmart.

I'm happy to pay a few dollars more or whatever, because Walmart is so up its own ass it feels like it doesn't even recognize its customers as people anymore. Besides the fact that there are entire shifts with zero cashiers (just self checkout, which I don't normally mind, but it's sort of a pain in the ass if you have more than a few dozen items)

I found that out the hard way yesterday morning. The Walmart Neighborhood Market in my area is open from 6am-12am (used to be 24/7, but crime changed that), so I stopped by there around 6:30am yesterday to beat the crowd and pick up more than a few things. When I got to the registers, only the self-checkouts were open. I flat out asked the woman keeping watch over the self-checkouts if anyone was working the registers. She told me that the cashiers don't come in until 7:30am.

Funny thing is that I've seen her work registers before...

We did this at my Kmart sometimes.  I'd work the service desk and check out customers for upwards of an hour after open.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 02, 2019, 03:25:42 AMI'm happy to pay a few dollars more or whatever, because Walmart is so up its own ass it feels like it doesn't even recognize its customers as people anymore. Besides the fact that there are entire shifts with zero cashiers (just self checkout, which I don't normally mind, but it's sort of a pain in the ass if you have more than a few dozen items), there is zero effort into making the stores comfortable to be in. The shelves are always way too close together in the grocery area, so if there's someone else shopping at the same time as you, you have to wait in line just to get through an aisle.

In Wichita, I have not noticed that Walmart (in any format) has been conspicuously worse than the supermarkets in this regard.  In Dillons, for example, an aisle becomes no-go when there are two people in the middle of it having a discussion about which brand of a given product to buy.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 02, 2019, 03:25:42 AMHowever, this becomes infuriating when I'm looking for a product–common at Walmart because they don't leave well enough alone and rearrange the entire damn store every 6 months–and so while I'm searching for something across a few aisles, already pissed because I can't find what it is I'm looking for, every time I turn a corner CHING! CHING! CHING! Last time, I finally got so pissed off at the chinging that I just left without it and ordered it off of Amazon*.

The last time I had to buy shampoo at Walmart (I use a Head & Shoulders 2-in-1 product), it was a purgatorial experience.  I spent close to half an hour cruising up and down the aisles that contain the hairstyling products, finding no bottles of Head & Shoulders.  I eventually found what I wanted in the Beauty section.  I can see myself doing this witch hunt again since it takes me about two years to go through a full bottle of shampoo (yes, I wash my hair every day, and yes, I still have a full head of hair) and product shelving rarely stays stable for that long.

Most of my visits to Walmart are to buy car maintenance supplies, since we generally use Sams for bulk buys and Dillons for general grocery shopping (though increasingly also Aldi for fresh produce).  It is usually an irritating experience.  I park at the bottom of the parking lot, because Walmart favors angle parking with one-way aisles that force you to drive up to the front of the store and wait for pedestrians to cross if you cannot leave by driving over adjacent empty spaces.  I park closer to the market entrance, because the self-checkouts are installed exclusively in that corner of the store and it is never worth it to wait in line at a staffed checkout when I'm buying just a five-quart jug of motor oil and possibly an oil filter.  Once inside the store, I have a looong walk to the auto center and back again, because it is always located diagonally opposite the self-checkouts.

I've actually considered buying motor oil on Amazon to sidestep these types of errands, but I find Amazon's pricing is favorable only for occasional multibuy deals that require me to assume more stockpiling risk than I like.  For example, my last oil buy on Amazon was three jugs of Rotella T6 that took three years to use up.  (In the past I used to have a Mobil 1 stockpile that took almost 15 years to use up.)  I do buy oil filters online because two cars in the family use the same oversize filter can (I like filling the crankcase slightly beyond capacity to improve on the designed-in oil cooling) and RockAuto's pricing is very favorable.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 02, 2019, 03:25:42 AM*Amazon is one that I think is getting to the point where it would be better for everyone if it just goes away. They've done a great job with me as a customer, but my experience as one of their vendors has been hellish enough that I'm not selling through them again. They've lost $207 worth of my inventory and seem content not to bother looking for it, sent out the wrong item to a customer and when they returned it damaged charged me for the loss, instructed me to ship product to a non-existent warehouse so I had my shipment returned by USPS, and on top of it all, they took high enough fees that my profit margin shrank to a mere 3%, meaning I lost money by selling on Amazon. Fuck that noise.

Amazon is not working all that well for me as a customer.  Every so often I have to buy BD-R discs for archiving.  I have had one shipment go astray, probably because the delivered package was stolen out of my mailbox.  I still haven't received a refund.  When I had the next few shipments sent to me General Delivery, that worked, until Amazon sent the next-to-last via UPS rather than USPS and the Post Office rejected the delivery.  I had it re-sent to an Amazon locker, which worked, but Amazon charged me for both shipments even though only one was delivered, and I have yet to receive a refund for that too.

Walmart isn't the only place that moves stuff just for the heck of it.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 02, 2019, 12:38:47 PM
Walmart isn't the only place that moves stuff just for the heck of it.

Indeed. My local Kroger does this all the time. My mom noted that this is likely a business tactic to keep people in the store longer, so they might "buy more stuff."  It's just really stupid, and really inconvenient for both customers and employees alike.

I would shut down that lemonade stand a couple of blocks down the street from me.  Damn brat's annoying and the lemonade is Country Time.

Quote from: bandit957 on August 27, 2019, 12:12:25 PM
Walmart used to pride itself in carrying American-made products. That's why I purchased a TV there around 1997. It was American-made.

But no more. Try finding American-made electronics there now.

Does anyone even make electronics in the US?

Stretching the word 'business' a bit further, I'm going to go with journalism as a whole...newspapers, magazines, cable/network news. They're in business for one reason and one reason only: to stay in business; therefore, everything is geared to sinking to the lowest common denominator to sell the most of their product. IMO, 'investigative reporting' and reporting the 'truth' died a long time ago. Everything is skewed to bring in the most buyers. TV and print is just visual clickbait nowadays.

Runner-up is Twitter, for helping ruin attention spans. No one reads beyond the headline anymore (as shown by most any comment section of a news story).

Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2019, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on August 27, 2019, 12:12:25 PM
Walmart used to pride itself in carrying American-made products. That's why I purchased a TV there around 1997. It was American-made.

But no more. Try finding American-made electronics there now.

Does anyone even make electronics in the US?

Americans still buy electronics, so someone ought to.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 02, 2019, 04:52:02 PM

Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2019, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on August 27, 2019, 12:12:25 PM
Walmart used to pride itself in carrying American-made products. That's why I purchased a TV there around 1997. It was American-made.

But no more. Try finding American-made electronics there now.

Does anyone even make electronics in the US?

Americans still buy electronics, so someone ought to.

They're about to start making cell phone touch screens in a huge new plant that is currently under construction along I-41/94 in southeastern Wisconsin.

Mike

Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2019, 04:41:58 PM
Stretching the word 'business' a bit further, I'm going to go with journalism as a whole...newspapers, magazines, cable/network news. They're in business for one reason and one reason only: to stay in business; therefore, everything is geared to sinking to the lowest common denominator to sell the most of their product. IMO, 'investigative reporting' and reporting the 'truth' died a long time ago. Everything is skewed to bring in the most buyers. TV and print is just visual clickbait nowadays.

Runner-up is Twitter, for helping ruin attention spans. No one reads beyond the headline anymore (as shown by most any comment section of a news story).

Isn't any business/industry in business for one reason and one reason only? I mean, show me a business whose business model is the end of their business and I'll show you a business doomed to fail (which, for many, isn't necessarily a bad thing).

One thing is for certain: They need to start enforcing the AT&T breakup again. At this point, it's as if the breakup never even happened.

If the federal government won't do it, the states must.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PM
One thing is for certain: They need to start enforcing the AT&T breakup again. At this point, it's as if the breakup never even happened.

How does one enforce a breakup/divestiture that happened some 35 years ago?  Last time I checked, consumers still have a choice for telephone companies.  No way is it like the days of the old AT&T (aka MA-Bell) of the 1970s.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PMIf the federal government won't do it, the states must.

How about consumers vote with their wallets and choose other providers (example: Verizon)?

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 03, 2019, 04:11:53 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PM
One thing is for certain: They need to start enforcing the AT&T breakup again. At this point, it's as if the breakup never even happened.

How does one enforce a breakup/divestiture that happened some 35 years ago?  Last time I checked, consumers still have a choice for telephone companies.  No way is it like the days of the old AT&T (aka MA-Bell) of the 1970s.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PMIf the federal government won't do it, the states must.

How about consumers vote with their wallets and choose other providers (example: Verizon)?

Around here, we have something like 2 cellphone companies. And if you still want landline, there's one company, and that's it.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 04:34:24 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 03, 2019, 04:11:53 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PM
One thing is for certain: They need to start enforcing the AT&T breakup again. At this point, it's as if the breakup never even happened.

How does one enforce a breakup/divestiture that happened some 35 years ago?  Last time I checked, consumers still have a choice for telephone companies.  No way is it like the days of the old AT&T (aka MA-Bell) of the 1970s.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PMIf the federal government won't do it, the states must.

How about consumers vote with their wallets and choose other providers (example: Verizon)?

Around here, we have something like 2 cellphone companies. And if you still want landline, there's one company, and that's it.

I'm out in the sticks, and we have all sorts of cell providers to choose from. AT&T and Appalachian Wireless are the big ones, but there's Straight Talk, TracFone, and a bunch of others I can't think of off the top of my head.

VW/Audi.

They should have gotten the death penalty for the emissions scandal. Their former CEO is under active indictment in this country and the Germans won't extradite him. When they do, they get their right to participate in the US economy back.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
VW/Audi.

They should have gotten the death penalty for the emissions scandal.

For emissions? By that threshold, I don't think we'd have any automakers left. GM: ignition system; Ford: Pinto, powershift transmission; Toyota: continuing to use Takata airbags in new cars well after the recall started...

Quote from: DaBigE on September 04, 2019, 01:51:55 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
VW/Audi.

They should have gotten the death penalty for the emissions scandal.

For emissions? By that threshold, I don't think we'd have any automakers left. GM: ignition system; Ford: Pinto, powershift transmission; Toyota: continuing to use Takata airbags in new cars well after the recall started...

Those companies were due to incompetence, this was a willful act. That's the difference.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 26, 2019, 11:40:54 AM
The Tobacco industry

Yes.

There's so many other tastier ways to pollute oneself.

Quote from: DaBigE on September 04, 2019, 01:51:55 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
VW/Audi.
They should have gotten the death penalty for the emissions scandal.

For emissions? By that threshold, I don't think we'd have any automakers left. GM: ignition system; Ford: Pinto, powershift transmission; Toyota: continuing to use Takata airbags in new cars well after the recall started...

VW/Audi was a hit job by the U.S. federal government.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PM
One thing is for certain: They need to start enforcing the AT&T breakup again. At this point, it's as if the breakup never even happened.

If the federal government won't do it, the states must.

The way I see it, the breakup occured because there wasn't actually any direct competition, local and long-distance.  The old ATT was vertically integrated and operated nationwide except for two markets.  SNET operated exclusively in CT, and Cincinatti Bell operated in OH. ATT had only minority stakes in those companies so they weren't affected by the breakup.  In 2019, the telcos that operate in the US exist because of the breakup.  Verizon was borne out of Bell Atlantic. CenturyLink and Qwest were allowed to merge because they were independent.

Quote from: Chrispi on September 02, 2019, 04:30:44 PM
I would shut down that lemonade stand a couple of blocks down the street from me.  Damn brat's annoying and the lemonade is Country Time.

:-D

Quote from: bandit957 on September 03, 2019, 03:49:57 PM
One thing is for certain: They need to start enforcing the AT&T breakup again. At this point, it's as if the breakup never even happened.

At least they have real competition though (Comcast, Verizon, T-Mobile, etc.).

The AT&T break up was, of course, idiotic.  The whole thing has been rendered moot by cell phones and other technology, but Bell was a wonderful company (and the most broadly owned stock of all).  The situation was really simple.    The only kind of phone was a landline, now called "POTS" for plain old telephone service.  Every place had one and only one telephone company that installed telephones.  In about 80% of the country, this was a Bell, many rural areas, and some places not so rural (Las Vegas, Lexington, Tampa, Raleigh-Durham, many others, plus the odd situations in Conn. and Cincinnati), where there were many other companies including Contel, Centel, GTE, United, and many others. 

You could (and yes there are kids today who do not know this) only call locally, generally your county, for "free" and everything else was long distance.  AT&T handled long distance, both for itself and for the 20% of the country otherwise served.  And, and this is the important part, it vastly overcharged for long distance.  So it could vastly undercharge for local service.  Since the major users of long distance was government, business, and the wealthy, this meant that the rich and big business SUBSIDIZED the poor, insuring virtually universal service.  Only the very poorest (who needed to be looking for work, not be on the phone) could not afford phone service.  A wonderful system.

The AT&T breakup "accomplished" two things. 

First was the break up of AT&T into 8 parts.  AT&T which made phones and handled long distance.  The phone making division, Western Electric, and GTE's companion Automatic Electric, which did the same for the 20%, quickly went out of business, destroying good union jobs and replacing study equipment with Chinese crap.  The long distance division was then forced to compete with other companies, such as Sprint and MCI.  Thus the cost of local service went way up, and the cost of long distance went way down.  In other words, the poor and middle class got screwed, and the wealthy and big business saved. 

Second, the seven other companies were the "baby Bells" regional companies that owned the local phone company in different places.  And?  The fact that my phone company was "Bell Atlantic" and somebody else's phone company was "Bell South" and somebody else's was "NYNEX" was TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.  I had ONE AND ONLY ONE local phone company.  Who cares if it was a part of a huge company that also owned the ONE AND ONLY local phone company in Oregon, or just a really big company that "only" owned the local phone company in Pennsylvania, and some other really big company owned the phone company in Oregon?  Irrelevant.  I had the same choice.  None. 

So, the cost of local phone service skyrocketed.  We were a few years from the end of universal service.  Cell phones and VOIP saved us from that fate, but in an alternate universe  without those inventions, today, nobody who was not at least solidly middle class, if not upper middle class, could afford a phone in their home.

The cost of local phone service skyrocketed because of deregulation of big corporations.

If it's impractical for phone and other utilities to be anything other than a monopoly, then they should be publicly owned - not owned by big corporations.

Also, I remember when Cincinnati Bell wanted to charge a fee for people using modems. All due to greed.

Except, of course, local phone companies are totally regulated by state Public Service Commissions, Railroad Commissions, Public Utilities Commissions in every jurisdiction.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 05, 2019, 09:55:05 AM
Except, of course, local phone companies are totally regulated by state Public Service Commissions, Railroad Commissions, Public Utilities Commissions in every jurisdiction.

Cincinnati Bell does pretty much whatever it wants.

Also, why do monopolies advertise?

I remember Cincinnati Bell running huge newspaper ads actually bragging that it was increasing its rates. As with the electric utilities, every rate increase was rubber-stamped by regulators.

Maybe the breaking up of Bell was bad because telecommunications should be treated as a public good rather than private.  Bell should have been nationalized! :D

Speaking of phones I wouldn't mind the trade off of having no cellular industry or even one that didn't really develop beyond what it was in the 1990s.  Sure being able to have a computer like device is nice and all but the aspect of being "constantly reachable"  is aggravating.  At some point around circa 2009 my own career went from "leave a voice mail if I'm not home and handle your own to emergency"  to being "always on call"  somehow.  I do miss the times where if you weren't at home you simply weren't reachable, made for a much more quiet and private way of life. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2019, 10:05:54 AM
Speaking of phones I wouldn't mind the trade off of having no cellular industry or even one that didn't really develop beyond what it was in the 1990s.  Sure being able to have a computer like device is nice and all but the aspect of being "constantly reachable"  is aggravating.  At some point around circa 2009 my own career went from "leave a voice mail if I'm not home and handle your own to emergency"  to being "always on call"  somehow.  I do miss the times where if you weren't at home you simply weren't reachable, made for a much more quiet and private way of life.

The world is too complicated to do without smartphones now. If something important happens, news needs to travel fast.

What's surprising is that we have such advanced technology but our economic system is stuck in feudalist times.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 05, 2019, 10:10:46 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2019, 10:05:54 AM
Speaking of phones I wouldn't mind the trade off of having no cellular industry or even one that didn't really develop beyond what it was in the 1990s.  Sure being able to have a computer like device is nice and all but the aspect of being "constantly reachable"  is aggravating.  At some point around circa 2009 my own career went from "leave a voice mail if I'm not home and handle your own to emergency"  to being "always on call"  somehow.  I do miss the times where if you weren't at home you simply weren't reachable, made for a much more quiet and private way of life.

The world is too complicated to do without smartphones now. If something important happens, news needs to travel fast.

What's surprising is that we have such advanced technology but our economic system is stuck in feudalist times.

I'd argue that the world is way too complicated because of the perpetuation of cellular and social media technology, especially when it comes to emergency management (which is what I do).   It used to be that a more singular message got out that was streamlined, now you have a disorganization of information coming from everywhere in almost every form of media/communication.  I'd argue that it lead to things like all the problems in Florida that have been associated with all the unnecessary preparation for Hurricane Dorian.  The more voices out there isn't exactly a good thing in that sphere.  Worse yet, people have become way too reliant on things like cell phones and things like GPS technology to pull them out of a fire in an emergency even those they might fail.  We used (meaning what I do) used to teach people what to do, how to rely on themselves during an emergency and what message to listen to.  Now that's essentially gone out the window and people think not being able find a key or someone being late qualifies as "an emergency ."

You could go even further into the social implications of cellular and mass media technology leading to an increase in terrorism and active shooter incidents.  People prone to that kind often copy what they see put in front of them in popular media and there likely is causality with some of the trends in violent crime.  So in that sense cellular and communications technology is largely the driver for the complicated world today. 

Quote from: bandit957 on September 05, 2019, 10:00:43 AM
As with the electric utilities, every rate increase was rubber-stamped by regulators.

Sooooooooo, the government is corrupt and cannot be trusted to do its job.  But should own the phone system.

Cannot argue with illogic like that.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 05, 2019, 11:11:39 AM
Sooooooooo, the government is corrupt and cannot be trusted to do its job.

As if big corporations do so great themselves.

Quote from: Rothman on September 05, 2019, 10:05:10 AM
Bell should have been nationalized!

So which bastion of efficiency would you choose to run it?  The military, the IRS, TSA, ...

Quote from: GaryV on September 05, 2019, 01:12:25 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 05, 2019, 10:05:10 AM
Bell should have been nationalized!

So which bastion of efficiency would you choose to run it?  The military, the IRS, TSA, ...

Medicare

Quote from: SP Cook on September 05, 2019, 09:41:48 AM
Only the very poorest (who needed to be looking for work, not be on the phone)

Question: how would one look for work if employers couldn't call them to schedule an interview?

One category (not picking on a particular company): TV news. All of it; network and cable, national and local.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 05, 2019, 09:41:48 AM
The AT&T break up was, of course, idiotic.  The whole thing has been rendered moot by cell phones and other technology, but Bell was a wonderful company (and the most broadly owned stock of all).  The situation was really simple.    The only kind of phone was a landline, now called "POTS" for plain old telephone service.  Every place had one and only one telephone company that installed telephones.  In about 80% of the country, this was a Bell, many rural areas, and some places not so rural (Las Vegas, Lexington, Tampa, Raleigh-Durham, many others, plus the odd situations in Conn. and Cincinnati), where there were many other companies including Contel, Centel, GTE, United, and many others. 

You could (and yes there are kids today who do not know this) only call locally, generally your county, for "free" and everything else was long distance.  AT&T handled long distance, both for itself and for the 20% of the country otherwise served.  And, and this is the important part, it vastly overcharged for long distance.  So it could vastly undercharge for local service.  Since the major users of long distance was government, business, and the wealthy, this meant that the rich and big business SUBSIDIZED the poor, insuring virtually universal service.  Only the very poorest (who needed to be looking for work, not be on the phone) could not afford phone service.  A wonderful system.

The AT&T breakup "accomplished" two things. 

First was the break up of AT&T into 8 parts.  AT&T which made phones and handled long distance.  The phone making division, Western Electric, and GTE's companion Automatic Electric, which did the same for the 20%, quickly went out of business, destroying good union jobs and replacing study equipment with Chinese crap.  The long distance division was then forced to compete with other companies, such as Sprint and MCI.  Thus the cost of local service went way up, and the cost of long distance went way down.  In other words, the poor and middle class got screwed, and the wealthy and big business saved. 

Second, the seven other companies were the "baby Bells" regional companies that owned the local phone company in different places.  And?  The fact that my phone company was "Bell Atlantic" and somebody else's phone company was "Bell South" and somebody else's was "NYNEX" was TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.  I had ONE AND ONLY ONE local phone company.  Who cares if it was a part of a huge company that also owned the ONE AND ONLY local phone company in Oregon, or just a really big company that "only" owned the local phone company in Pennsylvania, and some other really big company owned the phone company in Oregon?  Irrelevant.  I had the same choice.  None. 

So, the cost of local phone service skyrocketed.  We were a few years from the end of universal service.  Cell phones and VOIP saved us from that fate, but in an alternate universe  without those inventions, today, nobody who was not at least solidly middle class, if not upper middle class, could afford a phone in their home.

1) It's possible that had the breakup not happened, ATT would have monopolized the mobile telco market.  They could have built towers and used their microwave relay centers for long-distance.  Again, you don't have Verizon without the breakup.

2) The breakup allowed the RBOCs to implement service customized for their regions and to freely do business.

3) ATTs infrastructure backbone is a moot point now.  Data and voice are transmitted a majority of the time over fiber.  The copper infrastructure carries the last mile.  There are many other ISPs that serve the backbone.

4) Universal service requires telcos to provide POTS to any building that has the copper.  The USF allowed ATT to offer subsidized phone service to low-income residents.

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 06, 2019, 10:53:13 AM
1) It's possible that had the breakup not happened, ATT would have monopolized the mobile telco market.

It almost certainly would have.

Also, I read that Cincinnati Bell was one of very few local phone companies exempt from regulations established by this ruling, because AT&T didn't own a majority stake in it. The regulations should have applied to Cincinnati Bell too. Anyone who's had to deal with them would agree.

How about CNN? 

Koch Industries

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Goes Double for Bank of America

Quote from: texaskdog on September 10, 2019, 11:31:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Goes Double for Bank of America

Oh yes that bank is terrible.  I used to bank at Barnett, but they got absorbed into Nation's Bank which afterwards got absorbed into them.  I shut my accounts and went to Chase.

MSNBC

Quote from: roadman65 on September 10, 2019, 11:33:51 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on September 10, 2019, 11:31:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Goes Double for Bank of America

Oh yes that bank is terrible.  I used to bank at Barnett, but they got absorbed into Nation's Bank which afterwards got absorbed into them.  I shut my accounts and went to Chase.

There's very little reason to bank at an actual bank unless you're a business. For personal banking, a credit union will perform the necessary services, normally without being shitheads about it, because account holders can vote the CEO out of office if they get out of line.

Banks are only necessary if you need business functions like ordering large amounts of change from the Fed, revolving lines of credit, credit card processing (and even that's unnecessary thanks to Square and Stripe), etc.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 10, 2019, 11:33:51 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on September 10, 2019, 11:31:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Goes Double for Bank of America

Oh yes that bank is terrible.  I used to bank at Barnett, but they got absorbed into Nation's Bank which afterwards got absorbed into them.  I shut my accounts and went to Chase.

I only use credit unions.  My company makes me go to the BOA constrictor, they are awful. 

Quote from: texaskdog on September 11, 2019, 04:07:37 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 10, 2019, 11:33:51 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on September 10, 2019, 11:31:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Goes Double for Bank of America

Oh yes that bank is terrible.  I used to bank at Barnett, but they got absorbed into Nation's Bank which afterwards got absorbed into them.  I shut my accounts and went to Chase.

I only use credit unions.  My company makes me go to the BOA constrictor, they are awful. 

How do they make you? Once they pay you the money is yours...

I've had worse experiences at credit unions than at banks. If I could shut down one, and only one, business, Commonwealth Credit Union out of Frankfort would be very high on my list.

Aren't most credit unions only limited to certain people? You have to work at a certain place, or be closely related to someone who works there?

Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2019, 01:34:18 PM
Aren't most credit unions only limited to certain people? You have to work at a certain place, or be closely related to someone who works there?

I think there are some that allow anyone who lives in a given area - for example, maybe within 50 miles of downtown Cincinnati.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2019, 01:34:18 PM

Aren't most credit unions only limited to certain people? You have to work at a certain place, or be closely related to someone who works there?

That was the old law.

Originally credit unions were formed were formed during the Depression to provide bank-like services to people banks would not at the time deal with.  Generally the "members" were people who all worked for the same company.   Credit unions are non-profit, and thus don't pay taxes, and only engage in personal lending, and are exempt from a lot of regulaitons.

Times change and by the 1980s many people were saying credit unions were obsolete, as banks would deal with about anybody.  Banks thought credit unions had an unfair advantage.

After some litigation, the Congress passed a law in 1998 that allowed credit unions to offer "membership" to anyone with a "common bond" which can be about anything, and most credit unions converted from job based to geography based.

Most of the credit unions around here allow "membership" to anyone who "live, works, visits for health care, worships, or attends school" in a particular area, generally a county or within X miles of a place.    Which means, in practical effect, "everybody".  They all also changed their name from something like "XYZ Company Credit Union" to nonsense names like "Freedom America Credit Union". 

Personally, I don't care for them.  Most still keep "bankers hours"; don't have ATMs away from their offices, or in other regions; and don't offer apps or computer based banking.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 11, 2019, 02:13:02 PM
Personally, I don't care for them.  Most still keep "bankers hours"; don't have ATMs away from their offices, or in other regions; and don't offer apps or computer based banking.

Except for the "bankers hours", many of the items you list are overcome by shared-branch co-op (https://www.co-opfs.org/Solutions/Engage/CO-OP-Shared-Branch) credit unions. Granted, not all participate, but basically, it allows you to conduct your financial transactions at a credit union branch that isn't your home CU. And the number of CUs that don't offer online and/or app-based transaction is shrinking every year. While I can't speak for many other regions, around here, you have to search to find a CU that doesn't offer those services.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2019, 01:34:18 PM
Aren't most credit unions only limited to certain people? You have to work at a certain place, or be closely related to someone who works there?

The credit union that I bank with has a number of rules dictating who is allowed to join it. It depends on either where you work, or what  organizations you're a member of. However, one of the organizations has a deal with the credit union to allow the credit union to process memberships. So if you don't qualify on any other grounds, you just donate something like $5 to the organization and become a member of that, and immediately qualify for credit union membership.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 11, 2019, 02:13:02 PM
Personally, I don't care for them.  Most still keep "bankers hours"; don't have ATMs away from their offices, or in other regions; and don't offer apps or computer based banking.

The credit union I bank (a very large CU with branches throughout Oklahoma) with has a much nicer online banking system than the real bank I do business banking with. The CU is much more technologically advanced, as well; the business bank still requires you to fill out deposit and withdrawal slips for some reason. With the CU, you just tell the teller your account number (or show them a laminated card they give you with your name and account number on it, or I'm sure they can look you up if you have no clue) and what you want to do and you're ready to go.

The CU is a part of the nationwide Transfund ATM network, so I have fee-free access to ATMs throughout the country. If I do use an out-of-network ATM, the fee is only 75¢ (plus whatever the ATM's fee is). That is one of only two fees I know the CU charges–the other is the overdraft fee of $22.50. There is no "account analysis service charge" (the $3/month the business bank charges me for having the sheer, unmitigated gall to use online banking) or "account maintenance fee" or "lack of activity fee" or charging for replacement debit cards or whatever other horseshit real banks pull.

I can't find a regular bank that offers business outside "banker's hours" that doesn't have a large degree of the aforementioned horseshit. In-branch banking is mostly irrelevant for most customers anyway–I still visit my CU branch because I prefer to do business with $10 bills, which are not stocked in ATMs, but other than that I can do everything I need to with online banking.

Credit unions used to have the benefit of better savings rates.  Oh well.

Be careful with ATM fees, even when a credit union belongs to a network.  The credit union may not charge -- but the bank that actually owns the ATM may charge its own fee.

Quote from: Rothman on September 11, 2019, 05:17:31 PM
Be careful with ATM fees, even when a credit union belongs to a network.  The credit union may not charge -- but the bank that actually owns the ATM may charge its own fee.

This is mitigated by learning to plan ahead and visit either the bank or one of the bank's ATMs when cash is needed. (If I am going to a cash-only place, like a casino, I will stop by the bank's drive-thru ATM to avoid the possibility of paying an 8% fee to Everi or whatever other credit card service the casino subscribes to.)

I believe there may be some sort of arrangement with the Transfund network in particular that disallows host bank fees, or else Transfund itself hosts the ATMs. Most of the Transfund ATMs I have seen outside my own CU are in places like Walgreens or 7-11. Either way, the Transfund ATMs are marketed as fee-free for CU members, and in my experience, that has been true.

I wouldn't shut down any business. Shutting down a business just removes competition, which just drives up prices. Free markets work if we allow them to; they fail when people meddle with red tape and regulations.

On that note, screw Dollar General. Their popping up in literally every small town around here has put so many mom and pop grocery stores out of business the past five years its not even funny. They are far more damaging than Walmart!

Oh, and screw Charter Spectrum too. Not so much because of their rates (because I really don't pay that much for cable and internet), but rather, because their shitty equipment never works when I want it to and my Internet constantly drops... and because I live in the middle of nowhere, I have no other options (well, there is Dish or DirecTV... but for Internet, my only real option is Spectrum, and I have no idea who my local phone carrier is because nobody actually uses landline phones anymore). Then again, if I didn't live in a village with an exclusive arrangement with them, someone else could come in and offer better service at a better price... another argument for letting free markets work and getting governments out of the way!

Quote from: cu2010 on September 11, 2019, 09:30:11 PM
I wouldn't shut down any business. Shutting down a business just removes competition, which just drives up prices. Free markets work if we allow them to; they fail when people meddle with red tape and regulations.

There are conditions that need to be met for a market to reach that magic efficiency -- where goods and services are being sold for the lowest price to those who are best able to buy them (of course, every economist out there has a different definition of efficiency, but all definitions have debatable judgments of who should have access to private goods and services).  Those conditions are enforced by government regulations (e.g., the requirement of perfect information is one that is typically lost in "free market" proponents' arguments).  Therefore, doggedly removing regulation actually can cause inefficiency in the market.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 11, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
I can't find a regular bank that offers business outside "banker's hours" that doesn't have a large degree of the aforementioned horseshit. In-branch banking is mostly irrelevant for most customers anyway–I still visit my CU branch because I prefer to do business with $10 bills, which are not stocked in ATMs, but other than that I can do everything I need to with online banking.

I would think in-branch services would be required for anyone who lives in an apartment complex that still uses quarters for laundry.  I also tend to deposit things in person as well (on the rare occasion I need to... usually only around my birthday or Christmas), mainly because the deposit tickets that come with my checks won't use themselves.

I thought coin-operated washers and dryers in apartment buildings were still pretty common. Mine didn't have them when I moved in, but the building owner added them later.

My bank's ATMs accept deposits without deposit tickets.  Never had a problem with depositing checks into them.

I go to my local credit union branch once a month... to get cash out to pay my rent, because I haven't convinced my landlord to take PayPal or Venmo yet, and because the ATM won't let me take that much out. Everything else I either use an ATM or do electronically. It's just so much easier... especially since there's always a line during the one hour a day I can actually go!

SM-G930V

I didn't know landlords took PayPal. The ones I've had have only taken checks.

Technically anyone can take PayPal, you can use it to transfer funds between two parties. I use it to send money to my family  for birthdays, and for buying me stuff off Amazon, since I don't have a Prime membership.

I have a few family members who use it to send me money for my birthday and Christmas, since they know how much I despise gift cards.

My landlord takes check or cash... and since I'm not paying for checks that I'll never use because its 2019, I pay cash.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 11, 2019, 10:03:17 PM
I thought coin-operated washers and dryers in apartment buildings were still pretty common. Mine didn't have them when I moved in, but the building owner added them later.

They are, but there are places that have switched to prepaid cards and high-end units with in-unit laundry.  And, of course, townhome/condo/homeowners have their own machines and don't need to worry about such things.

Quote from: Rothman on September 11, 2019, 10:04:41 PM
My bank's ATMs accept deposits without deposit tickets.  Never had a problem with depositing checks into them.

So does mine, but I need to use up the deposit tickets somehow, and since I just pair the trip up with one to get laundry quarters (every 3-4 weeks, unless I visit family and do a load of laundry there), it's not like I'm making an extra trip just to deposit birthday/Christmas checks.

Quote from: Rothman on September 11, 2019, 10:04:41 PM
My bank's ATMs accept deposits without deposit tickets.  Never had a problem with depositing checks into them.

I always prefer to deposit checks in person. I'm not a fan of leaving them sitting in an envelope in an ATM, because I prefer to get the transaction settled as quickly as possible without worrying about the envelope potentially being lost or stolen. Also, even the newer ATMs that can read and process checks might still make read errors on occasion. With a human bank teller, this is not an issue.

Landlords.  My landlord bills me through Quicken and I can pay with a credit card, which I do to get the air miles.  Since credit cards charge a %age, he is really cutting himself out of a couple points, I would be glad to drop a check off at his office, which is downstairs.

Checks.  Other than taxes, which charge a "convience fee" to use credit cards, I neither write nor receive more than two checks a year.  When I last changed banks, I ordered the least number of checks possible and expect to have to shred most of these when I retire and change banks in 9 years.

Quote from: US 89 on September 12, 2019, 12:36:11 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 11, 2019, 10:04:41 PM
My bank's ATMs accept deposits without deposit tickets.  Never had a problem with depositing checks into them.

I always prefer to deposit checks in person. I'm not a fan of leaving them sitting in an envelope in an ATM, because I prefer to get the transaction settled as quickly as possible without worrying about the envelope potentially being lost or stolen. Also, even the newer ATMs that can read and process checks might still make read errors on occasion. With a human bank teller, this is not an issue.

I haven't needed to put my deposits into an envelope and the ATM confirms its scans, letting me make sure it got it right.  Like I said, never had a problem and the deposits pop up in my account online quite quickly -- the same time it'd take a check to clear.

Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2019, 11:25:50 AM

Quote from: US 89 on September 12, 2019, 12:36:11 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 11, 2019, 10:04:41 PM
My bank's ATMs accept deposits without deposit tickets.  Never had a problem with depositing checks into them.

I always prefer to deposit checks in person. I'm not a fan of leaving them sitting in an envelope in an ATM, because I prefer to get the transaction settled as quickly as possible without worrying about the envelope potentially being lost or stolen. Also, even the newer ATMs that can read and process checks might still make read errors on occasion. With a human bank teller, this is not an issue.

I haven't needed to put my deposits into an envelope and the ATM confirms its scans, letting me make sure it got it right.  Like I said, never had a problem and the deposits pop up in my account online quite quickly -- the same time it'd take a check to clear.

As a veteran I use USAA for all my banking. They have a smartphone app that I use to deposit checks by taking a picture of them. In virtually all cases the funds are available to me almost immediately.

Because the bank is located in San Antonio, TX, and USAA members are scattered all over the world, years ago the company devised various ways (using scanners, etc.) to deposit checks remotely and became the industry benchmark for that type of service. Other banks have now been copying them. I've been using my smartphone to deposit checks for around eight years, a home scanner for around ten years before that.

How about three:

Red Speed
Safe Speed
Redflex

How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.  Then talk with them and insult the agency they work for and the phone agent gets all emotional like you are talking with the owner of the agency and get unprofessional and curse you out like you insulted them personally!

Sears/Kmart. Just close them all no one will miss them.

Quote from: Flint1979 on October 12, 2019, 07:34:10 PM
Sears/Kmart. Just close them all no one will miss them.

Dude.  How has that company harmed you personally?  You've made your point.  Repeatedly.  Move on, already.

AM Radio is in its last legs, along with FM and Shortwave, in the era of online audio streaming and Sirius/XM subscription.

930 KHJ (was it on 960 too?) in the 1960s, the most popular radio station Los Angeles and Southern CA knows about (anyone born before 2000). Briefly it was in Spanish (Mexican ranchera music genre), 1990-2015, now it's a Catholic religious station. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j85wdZrofKQ

Quote from: Brandon on October 12, 2019, 10:00:33 AM
How about three:

Red Speed
Safe Speed
Redflex

I have no problem with the technology, it has other uses. But some products get used for threshold-of-evil purposes.

I can think of a few really bad schools for "kids with special needs" I'd like to shut down.

That, and/or those phony wilderness therapy death camps.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 11, 2019, 04:08:56 AM

Quote from: texaskdog on September 11, 2019, 04:07:37 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 10, 2019, 11:33:51 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on September 10, 2019, 11:31:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
You can assume that part of the "magic" of shutting down the business includes the ability to move customers and employees to another similar company without problems.

----

I would choose Wells Fargo. They are incredibly dishonest, with multiple scandals, and they're not expected to go bankrupt any time soon.

Goes Double for Bank of America

Oh yes that bank is terrible.  I used to bank at Barnett, but they got absorbed into Nation's Bank which afterwards got absorbed into them.  I shut my accounts and went to Chase.

I only use credit unions.  My company makes me go to the BOA constrictor, they are awful. 

How do they make you? Once they pay you the money is yours...

For company business

Right now DirecTV isn't getting a lot of love from me. See details in the "wireless carrier" thread.

I would like to nominate MTV, not the same channel i watched in the 80s. People of my age miss what the M in MTV stood for, the M should stand for Music, not Moronic. Shutting it down would get rid of a lot of crappy reality shows.

Quote from: cwf1701 on October 18, 2019, 03:19:05 PM
I would like to nominate MTV, not the same channel i watched in the 80s. People of my age miss what the M in MTV stood for, the M should stand for Music, not Moronic. Shutting it down would get rid of a lot of crappy reality shows.

I didn't even realize it was still around.  It certainly isn't carried as a regular channel on any cable providers I've had recently. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2019, 03:43:25 PM

Quote from: cwf1701 on October 18, 2019, 03:19:05 PM
I would like to nominate MTV, not the same channel i watched in the 80s. People of my age miss what the M in MTV stood for, the M should stand for Music, not Moronic. Shutting it down would get rid of a lot of crappy reality shows.

I didn't even realize it was still around.

I did, sadly.

I'm not a fan of using power to shut down businesses.  I'd rather let the market decide that.

Quote from: ce929wax on October 20, 2019, 02:30:41 AM
I'm not a fan of using power to shut down businesses.  I'd rather let the market decide that.

That would make the thread extremely boring, though.

Conn's. In my experience, they can just go right ahead and take the last "n" off.

Quote from: Flint1979 on October 12, 2019, 07:34:10 PM
Sears/Kmart. Just close them all no one will miss them.

I actually do miss Sears I agree on Kmart though when the closed the one near me like 15 years ago I was like I will never go to Kmart again.

Quote from: qguy on September 13, 2019, 06:33:21 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2019, 11:25:50 AM

Quote from: US 89 on September 12, 2019, 12:36:11 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 11, 2019, 10:04:41 PM
My bank's ATMs accept deposits without deposit tickets.  Never had a problem with depositing checks into them.

I always prefer to deposit checks in person. I'm not a fan of leaving them sitting in an envelope in an ATM, because I prefer to get the transaction settled as quickly as possible without worrying about the envelope potentially being lost or stolen. Also, even the newer ATMs that can read and process checks might still make read errors on occasion. With a human bank teller, this is not an issue.

I haven't needed to put my deposits into an envelope and the ATM confirms its scans, letting me make sure it got it right.  Like I said, never had a problem and the deposits pop up in my account online quite quickly -- the same time it'd take a check to clear.

As a veteran I use USAA for all my banking. They have a smartphone app that I use to deposit checks by taking a picture of them. In virtually all cases the funds are available to me almost immediately.

Because the bank is located in San Antonio, TX, and USAA members are scattered all over the world, years ago the company devised various ways (using scanners, etc.) to deposit checks remotely and became the industry benchmark for that type of service. Other banks have now been copying them. I've been using my smartphone to deposit checks for around eight years, a home scanner for around ten years before that.

I've used ING Direct (Now Capital One 360) as my primary checking account for almost a decade now.  I routinely use the overdraft line of credit to cover gas and other small expenses right before payday, and have never paid an overdraft fee, just pennies in interest, which is almost always offset by the interest my checking account earns when it otherwise has money in it. My mobile app allows depositing checks, and I can pull cash virtually anywhere as long as I can find an Allpoint ATM.

The only thing I don't like is that there's nowhere local to deposit money orders or cash, so I keep an account with my local Chase branch and have my direct deposit setup to deposit just enough money to avoid a monthly service charge, just for that purpose.

I also have a GoBank debit card that comes with no fees since I occasionally drive for Uber. Along with a Varo Money account. I think both accounts offer the option of depositing cash at Wal-Mart, CVS or Walgreens, but I'm not sure what their policies are on money orders or two-party checks.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 02, 2019, 09:56:07 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

There was a time in this country when insurance was cheap, and a $50 copay covered everything associated with an ER visit. Nowadays a family would be lucky to score a "good"  insurance plan whose premium costs less than twice their mortgage in premiums per month; a trip to the ER costs $250 just to get in the door, assuming the hospital is in network, and any doctor, radiology company, or other entity with a pulse and title beyond their name who do much as breathes in the patient, gets to bill separately for the services they rendered... so yes, it's conceivable, and very common, that a single hospital visit will result in "bill after bill,"  hard to keep track and ultimately going to collections.

Plus many systems are automated these days.  If you get mis-charged, even calling with a dispute doesn't help.  I was mis-charged over some lab work about a year ago.  I got a bill for way too much and called to dispute it.  They said to talk to the insurance.  Called the insurance, they mistakenly processed the bill as out of network even though the place is in network.  Simple, right?  Wrong.  Still needs to go through all their bureaucratic review, which can take a LONG time.  During that time, even though the facility knew I had disputed the bill and had referred me to the insurance, they still sent me two more bills, with late charges, before the insurance company finally reprocessed the claim correctly and I got a bill for the correct amount.  I was worried sick the whole time that someone would turn the matter over to collections before the insurance company would reprocess everything.

My co-worker has actually successfully fired a collection agent (from her case, not the agency).  She learned what steps to go through and actually got the collection agent off her case, then straightened out the bill(s) herself directly.

I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2019, 08:12:20 PM
I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

Sound more like home inspectors need the boot and not the flipper.

House flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

Collection agencies.  I have no problem with legitimate collection agencies.  Pay your bills.  Don't buy things you cannot afford.  The issue is a lot of these deals are just lowlifes and work at home moms that cannot find a real job.  They buy "bad paper"  for cents on the $ and try to "work"  it.  Once informed that you do not owe the debt, they MUST, by law, either sue you or STFU.  Many do not.

Quote from: SP Cook on November 06, 2019, 10:35:06 AM

Once informed that you do not owe the debt, they MUST, by law, either sue you or STFU.  Many do not.

This is my issue with Conn's. Apparently, though, they have a habit of leaving accounts "open" even when they've been paid in full and later come after consumers saying they owe--basically "interest" on a balance that was already paid off.

An issue with medical bills that leads to debt is that there is no way to make an informed financial decision about a procedure before having it done. Hospitals have a "Blue Book" type of in-house publication that describes what the base price is for each procedure and code is. Since the insurance companies are going to negotiate the prices down, the book prices are grotesquely inflated, with common procedures costing five figures, simple medical supplies like tongue depressors costing $10 each, etc. That means if you don't have insurance, they charge the full book value of everything, and if you do, they can't tell you the price because they don't know how the negotiation is going to turn out.

Of course, if you are in an emergency situation you definitely will not have time to shop around for prices even if you could. You may not even have the luxury of choosing a provider that your insurance likes. And even if you did, you may not even be able to make your wishes known.

That's why I would have no moral objection to stiffing the medical industry if I got a bill I couldn't pay. I am not going to choose to die because they demand more money than I have. Fuck them; my life comes before capitalism.

Scott5114 FTW.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2019, 08:12:20 PM
I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

Quote from: SP Cook on November 06, 2019, 10:35:06 AM
House flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

It's also not up to a home inspector to note the brand quality of the A/C unit, dishwasher, thermostat, et al...just that it functions safely and properly. A trustworthy one might clue you into the quality of it, but they just need to tread the fine lines of the law. Sometimes they will make suggestions, but not requirements. For example...

We had a slightly leaky bathtub nozzle on our last house, and the inspector found a minor fault with that item. It was not a required fix, because the pipes inside the wall weren't the cause of the drip; I decided to fix it by removing the old one and replacing it with new. I didn't want the buyer to feel they'd wasted their money on the inspector. Off with the old nozzle, onto the new one...but I managed to make righty-tighty work exactly the same as lefty-loosy by applying a little too much torque! I then had to purchase and install new copper fitting along with another nozzle, thankfully without destroying any more of the tub walls to get it back on.

$40 and 3-4 hours of my time later, I realized that I should have ignored my sense of goodwill. On the other hand, I didn't realize how strong I really was with a pipe wrench...and I learned a little about how to fix something like that in the future.

Also, painting behind the toilet is a major league bitch. I've had enough practice removing the tanks and assembling it (to the point I actually feel confident enough to troubleshoot them!) but the painter probably isn't as careful and won't spend the 60 minutes for removal and disassembly.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 02, 2019, 09:56:07 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

If we were talking about a car payment, or some line of credit with a rent-to-own establishment, I'd agree. You get a single bill on a regular frequency, and if you can't pay, you pretty much deserve to have anything repossessed that you haven't fully paid for, if you meet the agreed requirements for such a situation. I don't like the fact it might haunt you for a long time, creating a deeper hole to dig out of when and if one's financial situation rights itself, but I can understand from a lender's perspective as well. Bad credit ruins it for others, as well.

But the healthcare system doesn't work that way; you might be 3-5 separate bills for a major visit, even the planned birth of a child. Insurance companies do a piss-poor job of keeping up with it all, let alone the negotiated pricing which is some sort of grab-bag sorcery. You waste a lot of time on the phone and following up with the work that you're paying for, let alone any pain you're dealing with because your recuperation means the hospital isn't making as wide a profit margin. If any other pair of industries approached that level of shadiness and shoddiness, they'd be sued out of existence. Even if you make all the necessary payments, it's 6-12 months until the dust settles.

Quote from: formulanone on November 07, 2019, 01:12:05 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2019, 08:12:20 PMI sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

Quote from: SP Cook on November 06, 2019, 10:35:06 AMHouse flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

It's also not up to a home inspector to note the brand quality of the A/C unit, dishwasher, thermostat, et al...just that it functions safely and properly. A trustworthy one might clue you into the quality of it, but they just need to tread the fine lines of the law. Sometimes they will make suggestions, but not requirements.

It is also not a given that one's state licenses home inspectors.  In Kansas a widespread problem with unqualified fly-by-night operators led the industry association to successfully press the Legislature to require licensing about a decade ago, but the law had a sunset provision, and a few years ago Governor Brownback vetoed a bill that would have cancelled the sunset.

Quote from: formulanone on November 07, 2019, 01:12:05 PMOn the other hand, I didn't realize how strong I really was with a pipe wrench...and I learned a little about how to fix something like that in the future.

I had that lesson when I attempted to replace a fuel filter on a 1978 Chevy Impala.  Anything with a hollow section is tricky.

Quote from: formulanone on November 07, 2019, 01:12:05 PMAlso, painting behind the toilet is a major league bitch. I've had enough practice removing the tanks and assembling it (to the point I actually feel confident enough to troubleshoot them!) but the painter probably isn't as careful and won't spend the 60 minutes for removal and disassembly.

We had a painter come in several years ago to strip wallpaper off the walls in our half bathroom and then prime and paint them.  It was accepted as given that the toilet tank would be removed and reset as part of the job.  I believe the toilet pipe grommets and toilet paper holder cover plate were also lifted rather than masked.

I understand the argument that people have to take responsibility for their choices and that there is a dimension of choice in the extent to which consumers research, and safeguard against, the information asymmetries that confront them in the marketplace.  It is just that I see flippers (not just of houses--there are car flippers too) as poisoning the marketplace.  Not only do they put intending dwellers in the position of having to pay twice to obtain fit-out that suits their preferences, but the cosmetic modifications they execute hide scrimshanking and make it difficult to identify the scope of maintenance that has been neglected by past long-term owners.

Put it this way:  if you are a DIYer and you are willing to take on a fixer-upper (defined as a habitable and structurally sound property that has not been updated in decades), you are in a more advantageous position if you do not have to compete with flippers.

Quote from: formulanone on November 07, 2019, 01:12:05 PMIf we were talking about a car payment, or some line of credit with a rent-to-own establishment, I'd agree. You get a single bill on a regular frequency, and if you can't pay, you pretty much deserve to have anything repossessed that you haven't fully paid for, if you meet the agreed requirements for such a situation. I don't like the fact it might haunt you for a long time, creating a deeper hole to dig out of when and if one's financial situation rights itself, but I can understand from a lender's perspective as well. Bad credit ruins it for others, as well.

But the healthcare system doesn't work that way; you might be 3-5 separate bills for a major visit, even the planned birth of a child. Insurance companies do a piss-poor job of keeping up with it all, let alone the negotiated pricing which is some sort of grab-bag sorcery. You waste a lot of time on the phone and following up with the work that you're paying for, let alone any pain you're dealing with because your recuperation means the hospital isn't making as wide a profit margin. If any other pair of industries approached that level of shadiness and shoddiness, they'd be sued out of existence. Even if you make all the necessary payments, it's 6-12 months until the dust settles.

The fundamental reality is that the US health care system has engendered a medical billing industry that operates to destroy price transparency and drive up out-turn cost for medical procedures.  There is also an element of unconscionability in how insurance companies make in- and out-of-network determinations, with significant implications for out-of-pocket cost for the consumer.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 07, 2019, 04:52:31 PM

Quote from: formulanone on November 07, 2019, 01:12:05 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2019, 08:12:20 PMI sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

Quote from: SP Cook on November 06, 2019, 10:35:06 AMHouse flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

It's also not up to a home inspector to note the brand quality of the A/C unit, dishwasher, thermostat, et al...just that it functions safely and properly. A trustworthy one might clue you into the quality of it, but they just need to tread the fine lines of the law. Sometimes they will make suggestions, but not requirements.

It is also not a given that one's state licenses home inspectors.  In Kansas a widespread problem with unqualified fly-by-night operators led the industry association to successfully press the Legislature to require licensing about a decade ago, but the law had a sunset provision, and a few years ago Governor Brownback vetoed a bill that would have cancelled the sunset.

Having sold our homes in Florida and Alabama, they each had to be state-licensed in their respective state. Looking at the licensing requirements in Alabama (https://www.nachi.org/licensing-and-certification/us/alabama), it's definitely not an overnight process: passing two tests in a required 18 month span means you have to keep your current employment active. (Although, I think few places would have a full-time home inspector based on the ever-changing housing market; for many people, it seems like a handy side gig.)

That's discouraging, though...I'd like a lot more confidence in home buying, but I have to imagine it was also something of a middleman that didn't exist 30 years ago, until liability, more uncertainty, unscrupulous salesmen/realtors, and less overall handyman know-how created that cycle.

We were burned right after the purchase of our first home by a big plumbing repair bill to replace a broken p-trap that required going in under the slab to fix (and thus around $1,000 to fix). The home inspector was no help; their warranty only covered visible fixtures and whether or not they were working. Anything under the slab was out of his scope.

Quote from: formulanone on November 07, 2019, 01:12:05 PM

If we were talking about a car payment, or some line of credit with a rent-to-own establishment, I'd agree. You get a single bill on a regular frequency, and if you can't pay, you pretty much deserve to have anything repossessed that you haven't fully paid for, if you meet the agreed requirements for such a situation. I don't like the fact it might haunt you for a long time, creating a deeper hole to dig out of when and if one's financial situation rights itself, but I can understand from a lender's perspective as well. Bad credit ruins it for others, as well.

What if you get into a bad situation because you suddenly have medical bills?  "Oh you're sick. You deserve to have your car taken away".  Next we'll have insurance that says "We don't feel like paying your medical costs"... oh wait: we already to.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 02, 2019, 09:56:07 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

People do not become delinquent on their own.  In my case it was cause I was having health issues. As far as them being scum, they are if they stoop low to harass people who owe money for whatever reason.  The law actually protects us from them and that is why if they call you too much they can get fined and owe you money.

Before you jump in, know the facts!   Do not get political.  BTW I pay to the people I owe the money to and not third parties who have no business being in other people's business anyway.

Speaking of copping an attitude, what is your excuse?  You seem like I hurt your feelings!  Do you own an agency? 

I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

Quote from: US71 on November 09, 2019, 09:10:36 AM
What if you get into a bad situation because you suddenly have medical bills?  "Oh you're sick. You deserve to have your car taken away".

You have 90 days to make payments; some allow for a one-time forbearance under the duress of medical conditions. I understand that a vehicle is the only way for many people to get a job and keep employment - and thus an income stream - in the first place. Being in the dealership world, there's a measure of insanity that goes with a $400-500 monthly payment with lower financing compared to a used vehicle outlet which offers a payment for half of that but with a steeper annual rate. How the typical buyer has desired ever-more expensive vehicles is still one of the great head-scratchers after all the excuses of "showing off" have been played out.

But it shouldn't be a safety net for the few who rack up a tremendous amounts of unnecessary debt without the bottom line ability to cover those expenses. I don't agree with it hurting your credit if your items are re-possessed (maybe a limit after there's been a lot of repossessions) for genuine medical reasons, but I think we can agree that losing that rent-to-own entertainment center and seating for five isn't worth complaining about.

There's a lot of fine lines amongst the nebulous gray areas in that territory.

Just need universal health care...

Quote from: SectorZ on November 15, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

If your wife’s relative has ever put one or both of you as a reference, then that is possibly why you were called.  I heard from my brother’s finance company shortly before his car was repossessed.

I have a slightly different story.  The people who lived in our house before we purchased it were deadbeats.  The very day the phone was turned on, with a new number, the collection agency called looking for them.   I’ve had to have the landline disconnected.  I don’t think I can ever have one again. Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It’s almost as if they’re still using our address. :confused:

Quote from: Rothman on November 17, 2019, 10:49:57 AM
Just need universal health care...

But if we have that, someone I don't like might benefit.  </s>

Quote from: renegade on November 17, 2019, 03:10:04 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on November 15, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

If your wife's relative has ever put one or both of you as a reference, then that is possibly why you were called.  I heard from my brother's finance company shortly before his car was repossessed.

I have a slightly different story.  The people who lived in our house before we purchased it were deadbeats.  The very day the phone was turned on, with a new number, the collection agency called looking for them.   I've had to have the landline disconnected.  I don't think I can ever have one again. Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It's almost as if they're still using our address. :confused:

I had a Honda Accord (at least I believe it was that car...I've owned many Hondas).  After my lease was up, I turned it in for another vehicle.  Later on, I started receiving phone calls from what appeared to be creditors for a Jacqueline Tucker.  I don't recall how I figured it out, but I think she was the person who must've bought my car after I turned it in.  Ironically, she has the same initials as me.  There must have been some paperwork associated with the car that kept my phone number, and eventually her credit calls started coming my way.  They go in waves...I'll get a bunch in a short period of time, then I won't hear from any again for a while.  Interestingly enough, she's also Facebook friends with a co-worker of mine, who gave me a brief history of how they're associated!

Quote from: renegade on November 17, 2019, 03:10:04 PM
Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It's almost as if they're still using our address. :confused:

I still get mail at my house from two owners back. I think that's kind of standard fare anymore. Address gets into some business's database, they don't subscribe to the USPS Change of Address service, and they never update it...

I have a self-inking No Longer At This Address stamp that I use on any mail addressed to someone else. Then I put it back in the mailbox unopened and the USPS returns to sender. I figure the hassle and wasted postage from getting their own mail back should be enough to make some businesses delete my address from the database. I still keep getting one lady's annual investment report booklet though. Guess the brokerage just doesn't care.

We finally stopped (about 10 years ago) getting a newsletter for the mother of the people who we bought the house from.  We bought the house 30 years ago.  The current owners were retiring Up North.  How old must that mother have been?

Quote from: renegade on November 17, 2019, 03:10:04 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on November 15, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

If your wife's relative has ever put one or both of you as a reference, then that is possibly why you were called.  I heard from my brother's finance company shortly before his car was repossessed.

I have a slightly different story.  The people who lived in our house before we purchased it were deadbeats.  The very day the phone was turned on, with a new number, the collection agency called looking for them.   I've had to have the landline disconnected.  I don't think I can ever have one again. Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It's almost as if they're still using our address. :confused:

My wife asked him that question and he claims he didn't, but he also lies a lot so who knows. He could have. I watch our credit like a hawk because I fear he could have tried to pull something worse.

I also had the same situation as you in reverse. When I bought my first house and got a landline, the previous owner of said phone number had a hard time paying bills. Got calls from 2005 finally ending around 2010 or so. Thankfully the house was new construction so no unpaid bills at the address at least.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2019, 07:39:07 AM
I have a self-inking No Longer At This Address stamp that I use on any mail addressed to someone else. Then I put it back in the mailbox unopened and the USPS returns to sender. I figure the hassle and wasted postage from getting their own mail back should be enough to make some businesses delete my address from the database. I still keep getting one lady's annual investment report booklet though. Guess the brokerage just doesn't care.

I don't think the post office actually returns mail with incorrect addresses - I read that they just throw it out unless the business specifically requests a return service.  I used to get a ton of mail for someone else in my apartment complex, because he liked to write his address down in an odd way.  Instead of X Apartment Complex Apt. Y, for some reason he liked to write X Apartment Complex Bld. X Apt. Y, apparently not realizing that "X Apartment Complex" IS the building number.  Many businesses got confused and started truncating the "Apt. Y" part, resulting in mail to "X Apartment Complex Apt. X", which is my address.  It was too the point that the post office would occasionally deliver mail to me even it was correctly addressed, which is how I discovered this in the first place.  No amount of returning mail through the post office or contacting my landlord did anything about it.  What did finally solve the problem was holding on to all of his mail and shoving it in his mailbox one Saturday.  After a couple times of that, I don't really see mail with his name any more unless it has "or current resident" in the address.