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VA Turnpike

Started by Angelo71, April 22, 2021, 07:33:15 PM

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Angelo71

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Roadgeekteen

God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

74/171FAN

Any discussion beyond the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike for this topic is practically fictional.  I am unsure if there is any further point to this thread.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Roadgeekteen

There are threads in the fictional board where people make up turnpikes for their state, I would suggest posting in one of those.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

1995hoo

I'm not so sure "most states" is accurate, either.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Dirt Roads

Sounds like some history on the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike is overdue.  The Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike included the 4 miles of the I-64/I-95 concurrency in downtown Richmond, I-95 from downtown Richmond to downtown Petersburg (about 25 miles), plus I-85 from downtown Petersburg out to Boydton Plank Road (about 5 miles).  Since I-64 is the straight route west of the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike, I think it is fair to say that this toll road was split into three separate Interstate routes.

sprjus4

The Turnpike went north beyond the I-64 West split and ended at US-301 near Chamberlayne. I-95 was built north of there in 1963 as apart of the interstate highway system, toll free.

I-64 east and west of the Turnpike overlap was also constructed in the mid-to-late 1960s as toll free, interstate highway.

SkyPesos

I looked at the Wikipedia article linked above, and it mentioned that the turnpike authority was founded in 1955. Interesting that if they waited another year, Virginia wouldn't have to construct it as a turnpike and could take advantage of the 90% federal funding for it.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: sprjus4 on April 22, 2021, 09:05:20 PM
The Turnpike went north beyond the I-64 West split and ended at US-301 near Chamberlayne. I-95 was built north of there in 1963 as apart of the interstate highway system, toll free.

I-64 east and west of the Turnpike overlap was also constructed in the mid-to-late 1960s as toll free, interstate highway.

I recall one or more on-ramps or exits that were "improperly" tolled, but I can't remember where they were.  Both the Brook Road (US-1) and Hermitage Road (VA-161) exits would have been free entrance/exit with tolls imposed on exits or at the Belvidere mainline tollgate.  Anybody remember which exits were tolled either before or after paying the full fare?

I was going to comment on the Belvidere mainline tollgate, but it looks like cpzilliacus beat me to it in the "old design deficiencies never fixed" thread:
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 15, 2014, 09:16:16 PM
I-95 (Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike) Exit 74C in Richmond, Virginia at East Broad Street features very sharp ramps and a design that dates back to the days when the Turnpike still charged tolls.  Ironically, it is right around the corner from the Central Office of the Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT).

The RPTA should have removed tolls on the downtown section many years before the end in 1992.  When I lived in Richmond in the late-1980s, there were so many truck accidents from losing brakes approaching the Belvidere mainline tollgate going [eastbound] on I-95/I-64.

1995hoo

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2021, 07:46:59 PM
I'm not so sure "most states" is accurate, either.

Wikipedia suggests there are 16 states that have a road (or, in Oklahoma's case, a road system) that could be considered to be the state's "Turnpike": CT, DE, FL, IL (Chicago Skyway; I'm not sure I think that's legitimately counted), IN, KS, KY (former), ME, MA, NH, NJ, NY, OH, OK, PA, and WV. Even counting the Richmond—Petersburg Turnpike, Virginia would only make 17 states (16 if you drop the Chicago Skyway, which I would, and 15 if you discount the Kentucky Turnpike, which is probably fair since it's no longer posted). I think it's fair to view a state's "turnpike" as being either a major arterial highway that operates or operated as a toll road, as in most of those examples, or a shorter road that is named as the state's turnpike (the New Hampshire Turnpike being the most obvious example). That way you exclude routes like TX-130, which is a toll road but is utterly insignificant in the overall context of that state's highway mileage.

Certainly that count in no way suggests that "most states have turnpikes."
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

deathtopumpkins

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:01:27 PMa shorter road that is named as the state's turnpike (the New Hampshire Turnpike being the most obvious example)

It's a bit off-topic, but NHDOT doesn't even use the name "New Hampshire Turnpike" for I-95. It's the Blue Star Turnpike (or together with the Spaulding Turnpike, the Eastern Turnpike). The state only uses "New Hampshire Turnpike System" to refer to the Blue Star, Spaulding, and Everett all combined. So I'd say it only counts in the same way Oklahoma does.

(see https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/operations/turnpikes/system/index.htm)

Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway system.  ;-)
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

Clinched Highways | Counties Visited

1995hoo

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....

Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway system.  ;-)

That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike

Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Angelo71

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....

Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway system.  ;-)

That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike

Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
What is an op?

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Angelo71 on April 23, 2021, 04:33:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....

Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway system.  ;-)

That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike

Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
What is an op?
original poster
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Mapmikey

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....

Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway system.  ;-)

That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike

Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.

Even with some former states added - CO, MD, TX - still not to halfway.

Maybe the 18th century?

wdcrft63

Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 22, 2021, 09:46:19 PM

The RPTA should have removed tolls on the downtown section many years before the end in 1992.  When I lived in Richmond in the late-1980s, there were so many truck accidents from losing brakes approaching the Belvidere mainline tollgate going [eastbound] on I-95/I-64.
Tolls were retained for many years after the original road was paid for. Some of the money supported improvements to the route but a lot of it was diverted to other area road projects such as the I-195 spur. Until the I-295 beltway was built, tolls on I-95 were a way to tap money from long-range travelers to support local development. Obviously VA was not the only state to think of this trick!

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 22, 2021, 09:46:19 PM
The RPTA should have removed tolls on the downtown section many years before the end in 1992.  When I lived in Richmond in the late-1980s, there were so many truck accidents from losing brakes approaching the Belvidere mainline tollgate going [eastbound] on I-95/I-64.

Quote from: wdcrft63 on April 24, 2021, 06:29:44 PM
Tolls were retained for many years after the original road was paid for. Some of the money supported improvements to the route but a lot of it was diverted to other area road projects such as the I-195 spur. Until the I-295 beltway was built, tolls on I-95 were a way to tap money from long-range travelers to support local development. Obviously VA was not the only state to think of this trick!

The main point was that the nasty downhill approach to the Belvidere mainline tollgate was a huge safety problem.  The tollgate could have been removed from downtown and RPTA still could have raised tolls elsewhere, or added tollgates north and south of there.

It was fun to pull up to the RPTA and RMA tollgates back in those days.  When I had locals in the car with me, I would toss in coins and say "Chuck" and wait until the gate raised and say "Robb".

hbelkins

Interesting tidbits about the Kentucky Turnpike. Locals in Shepherdsville still call I-65 "the turnpike." And there is a street called Toll View (can't remember the suffix) that was built when the road still has tolls.

Now, there are no tolls so you don't have to pay. A few miles to the south, it intersects US Federal Route 31-Dub in the general vicinity of a little green shrub.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

1995hoo

Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 24, 2021, 09:24:10 PM
....

It was fun to pull up to the RPTA and RMA tollgates back in those days.  When I had locals in the car with me, I would toss in coins and say "Chuck" and wait until the gate raised and say "Robb".

I remember a school trip to Chester on a Saturday in 1990 or 1991 for which the teacher used a school system—owned car (it was only a small group of students going) in which he had the kid riding shotgun flip the coins across over the roof of the car from the passenger's window–essentially, like shooting a hook shot in basketball. Good thing there somehow wasn't a lot of traffic behind us, as it took more than one attempt.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:01:27 PMa shorter road that is named as the state's turnpike (the New Hampshire Turnpike being the most obvious example)

It's a bit off-topic, but NHDOT doesn't even use the name "New Hampshire Turnpike" for I-95. It's the Blue Star Turnpike (or together with the Spaulding Turnpike, the Eastern Turnpike). The state only uses "New Hampshire Turnpike System" to refer to the Blue Star, Spaulding, and Everett all combined. So I'd say it only counts in the same way Oklahoma does.

(see https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/operations/turnpikes/system/index.htm)

Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway system.  ;-)

This is correct.  Though I can recall long ago (1970?) before the connection between the southern end of the Maine Turnpike and the northern end of (what is now) I-95 in New Hampshire was made, traffic had to use the road signed as Bypass U.S. 1 to cross the Piscataqua River, and then use the large traffic circle on the outskirts of Portsmouth, N.H. to get to the New Hampshire Turnpike (which was signed as such in those days).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 74/171FAN on April 22, 2021, 07:39:36 PM
Any discussion beyond the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike for this topic is practically fictional.  I am unsure if there is any further point to this thread.

I respectfully disagree.  In the 1950's, there was an Old Dominion Turnpike Authority, though nothing ever came of it and it was eventually abolished.  It filed reports with the Virginia General Assembly, but they are not online.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

74/171FAN

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 25, 2021, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on April 22, 2021, 07:39:36 PM
Any discussion beyond the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike for this topic is practically fictional.  I am unsure if there is any further point to this thread.

I respectfully disagree.  In the 1950's, there was an Old Dominion Turnpike Authority, though nothing ever came of it and it was eventually abolished.  It filed reports with the Virginia General Assembly, but they are not online.

Well you are right then because I did not know that.  :D  Then again, my parents were born in the mid 1950s so they would have been too young to have any clue that this existed.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

froggie

Existing and proposed toll roads as of 1955.  Wasn't just the Richmond-Petersburg in Virginia.  This map shows active plans/proposals in 25 states at that time.  Of course, the passing of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 the following year made many of these plans/proposals moot.

VDOT makes reference to the aforementioned Old Dominion Turnpike Authority here.  The description suggests that authority was created to build a turnpike along today's I-77 corridor to tie into the WV Turnpike and one that was proposed in North Carolina.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2021, 12:24:45 AM
Existing and proposed toll roads as of 1955.  Wasn't just the Richmond-Petersburg in Virginia.  This map shows active plans/proposals in 25 states at that time.  Of course, the passing of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 the following year made many of these plans/proposals moot.

VDOT makes reference to the aforementioned Old Dominion Turnpike Authority here.  The description suggests that authority was created to build a turnpike along today's I-77 corridor to tie into the WV Turnpike and one that was proposed in North Carolina.

I believe you are correct -  the ODTA was to build a connection between North Carolina and West Virginia, connecting to the West Virginia Turnpike north of Bluefield, though I have never seen any of its reports.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

bluecountry

Traffic is so bad on 95 from exit 126 to the beltway it really should just become like the NJTP from exit 6 north.



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