Just curious. I get that it connects the Hampton Roads area to the Outer Banks in North Carolina, but, really? VA 168 Business seems like the perfect shunpike route.
At least when I lived there 1991-1996, old 168 got completely overrun with traffic on the weekends, 3 hour backups Friday night SB, Sunday eve NB. There was no connector to 64 yet either, just a great bridge bypass. VaDot knew that something had to be done ASAP but had no $$. Tolls got the project built. I think NC may have even pitched in to aid their commerce.
Quote from: Zeffy on April 19, 2015, 11:22:39 PM
Just curious. I get that it connects the Hampton Roads area to the Outer Banks in North Carolina, but, really? VA 168 Business seems like the perfect shunpike route.
It's a much better shunpike route, now that it no longer carries traffic in a real hurry to get to or from the Outer Banks (which includes people from the D.C. area, who are least likely to prolong their already long journeys just to beat the toll).
Because poo.
VDOT wound up building the connector from the Great Bridge Bypass to I-64, but had no money for the rest. They actually gave the project to the city of Chesapeake...and the city opted for tolls to recoup the cost. It's for similar reasons that the city also took over the Jordan Bridge (VA 337) and Steel Bridge (US 17) projects.
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on April 19, 2015, 11:31:47 PM
At least when I lived there 1991-1996, old 168 got completely overrun with traffic on the weekends, 3 hour backups Friday night SB, Sunday eve NB. There was no connector to 64 yet either, just a great bridge bypass. VaDot knew that something had to be done ASAP but had no $$. Tolls got the project built. I think NC may have even pitched in to aid their commerce.
The old route of VA 168 was still a slugfest in 2001. The toll road was nice upgrade for through traffic.
Not to restate what others have already said, but the old 2-lane VA-168 was a bear. That, combined with 3-4 hour delays along US-158 near the Wright Bros. Bridge made a trip to the Outer Banks on Saturdays a 6-7 hour ordeal.
Interesting. I looked up the AADT for VA 168, and I found that it's pretty low on the Chesapeake Expressway portion - below 10K. Battlefield Blvd / VA 168 Bus is much higher, with numbers over 28K. What's also interesting is that the AADT from Hillcrest Road to the end of the Chesapeake Expressway tolled portion is 33K AADT. That definitely says that people shunpike that route heavily, since the other tolled portions are much lower (as noted before).
Here's the PDF that contains the AADT for the Virginia highways:
http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/Traffic_2013/AADT_PrimaryInterstate_2013.pdf
Pages 456 and 457 are the ones I used for VA 168.
In an unrelated (ish) question, we are traveling your the Outer Banks asset the end of May (weekend after Memorial Day). What kind of delays can I expect coming from the Tidewater region, given it's not quite peak season yet?
Quote from: Zeffy on April 20, 2015, 03:36:18 PM
Interesting. I looked up the AADT for VA 168, and I found that it's pretty low on the Chesapeake Expressway portion - below 10K. Battlefield Blvd / VA 168 Bus is much higher, with numbers over 28K. What's also interesting is that the AADT from Hillcrest Road to the end of the Chesapeake Expressway tolled portion is 33K AADT. That definitely says that people shunpike that route heavily, since the other tolled portions are much lower (as noted before).
Here's the PDF that contains the AADT for the Virginia highways:
http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/Traffic_2013/AADT_PrimaryInterstate_2013.pdf
Pages 456 and 457 are the ones I used for VA 168.
In 2013 the AADT for VA 168 between the NC line and 168 Bus is 23000. 14000 is the AADT on the southernmost segment of 168 Bus and 9000 on the southernmost segment of the toll road.
In 2000 (http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/AADT_2000.pdf last year of AADT before toll road opened), the AADT at the state line was 18000.
So on average more people actually use 168 Bus now than when 168 was difficult to drive in the 1990s. But I'm guessing on summer weekends the trend looks quite different.
Mapmikey
Quote from: ZeffyInteresting. I looked up the AADT for VA 168, and I found that it's pretty low on the Chesapeake Expressway portion - below 10K. Battlefield Blvd / VA 168 Bus is much higher, with numbers over 28K. What's also interesting is that the AADT from Hillcrest Road to the end of the Chesapeake Expressway tolled portion is 33K AADT. That definitely says that people shunpike that route heavily, since the other tolled portions are much lower (as noted before).
As a side note (since I'm guessing you're not familiar with the area), the "end of the tolled portion" is in reality the end of the city-maintained portion and is effectively the Battlefield Blvd overpass just south of Hanbury Rd.
Yes, there's a large volume of traffic that exits 168 at Hillcrest Rd...the last free exit when heading south. It's almost a 24K difference. But there is no corresponding 24K increase on BUSINESS 168/Battlefield Blvd to the south. What you're missing is that there is a fairly large amount of subdevelopment off the highway and south of Hillcrest.
Speaking from personal experience, yes there is shunpiking. But it isn't nearly to the extent that some may think.
On average, it's about 5 minutes longer to shunpike 168. But especially heading northbound, there are two things that'll trip you up: one is the left turn onto BUSINESS 168 at the south end (it's a long signal cycle). The second is the signal at Centerville Turnpike, a fairly busy arterial that has one of only 5 bridges across the North Landing River (168/Great Bridge and BUSINESS 168/Battlefield Blvd being two of the others). The signal at Hillcrest is usually responsive.
In my experience, because of the turns involved, it's easier to shunpike southbound than it is northbound.
Quote from: froggie on April 20, 2015, 10:33:44 PM
Quote from: ZeffyInteresting. I looked up the AADT for VA 168, and I found that it's pretty low on the Chesapeake Expressway portion - below 10K. Battlefield Blvd / VA 168 Bus is much higher, with numbers over 28K. What's also interesting is that the AADT from Hillcrest Road to the end of the Chesapeake Expressway tolled portion is 33K AADT. That definitely says that people shunpike that route heavily, since the other tolled portions are much lower (as noted before).
As a side note (since I'm guessing you're not familiar with the area), the "end of the tolled portion" is in reality the end of the city-maintained portion and is effectively the Battlefield Blvd overpass just south of Hanbury Rd.
Yes, there's a large volume of traffic that exits 168 at Hillcrest Rd...the last free exit when heading south. It's almost a 24K difference. But there is no corresponding 24K increase on BUSINESS 168/Battlefield Blvd to the south. What you're missing is that there is a fairly large amount of subdevelopment off the highway and south of Hillcrest.
Wonder if the City of Chesapeake has ever studied tolling
all of the toll-funded section of Va. 168? Easy enough to do with all-electronic tolling.
It would, of course, piss-off voters within city limits.
It would, yes...especially now that there's been development off of Hillcrest. On a similar note, there was some opposition south of the river for tolling the new Steel Bridge (US 17), but enough people realized that tolling it was the only way it would get built.
Did they go with the same funding formula that Delaware did with DE-1? That is 50% was paid for by the feds, and the state's 50% was bonded and tolled? That would rule out any tolling on the northern section.
As best as I can tell, there was no federal funding involved for the toll portion. The city bonded it out, with the tolls being used to repay the bonds.
Quote from: froggie on April 22, 2015, 03:16:11 PM
As best as I can tell, there was no federal funding involved for the toll portion. The city bonded it out, with the tolls being used to repay the bonds.
I think Chesapeake was able to borrow some of the money from VDOT, and the rest was funded by toll revenue bonds.
I lived in Tidewater 2003-2007. The problem with Business 168 isn't the traffic count. The problem is you never know when the stupid drawbridge will stop traffic for a half hour or more. It's easy enough to shunpike from Sep-May. But during the summer months the Intercoastal Waterway gets really busy and it seems most every drawbridge is open as much as it's closed except for the I 64 over the Elizabeth River which only requires the occasional opening.
Well at least a couple months ago, Chesapeake was considering raising the speed limit on VA 168 to possibly get more toll revenue. Would it work? I doubt it.
Article about raising the speed limit (http://www.13newsnow.com/story/traffic/2015/07/09/could-raising-the-speed-limit-on-expressway-attract-drivers/29935001/) dated July 9, 2015.
Kerry Dougherty's opinion (http://hamptonroads.com/2015/07/chesapeake-needs-steer-away-excessive-toll-drivers-already-have) on the matter from The Virginian-Pilot from the next day. IMO she is 100% right on the matter, plus travelers to the Outer Banks can also use the upgraded US 17 to US 158 in Elizabeth City or even further south to US 64 to avoid the toll.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2015, 10:59:53 PM
Well at least a couple months ago, Chesapeake was considering raising the speed limit on VA 168 to possibly get more toll revenue. Would it work? I doubt it.
Article about raising the speed limit (http://www.13newsnow.com/story/traffic/2015/07/09/could-raising-the-speed-limit-on-expressway-attract-drivers/29935001/) dated July 9, 2015.
Kerry Dougherty's opinion (http://hamptonroads.com/2015/07/chesapeake-needs-steer-away-excessive-toll-drivers-already-have) on the matter from The Virginian-Pilot from the next day. IMO she is 100% right on the matter, plus travelers to the Outer Banks can also use the upgraded US 17 to US 158 in Elizabeth City or even further south to US 64 to avoid the toll.
I agree that the Chesapeake Expressway can easily support a 65 mph speed limit. Also, I think parts of I-264 in Virginia Beach and Portsmouth can support a 60 mph limit as well; both were considered at one point when Virginia raised the maximum allowable urban speed limit to 65 mph based on a traffic and engineering study.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2015, 10:59:53 PM
Well at least a couple months ago, Chesapeake was considering raising the speed limit on VA 168 to possibly get more toll revenue. Would it work? I doubt it.
Article about raising the speed limit (http://www.13newsnow.com/story/traffic/2015/07/09/could-raising-the-speed-limit-on-expressway-attract-drivers/29935001/) dated July 9, 2015.
Kerry Dougherty's opinion (http://hamptonroads.com/2015/07/chesapeake-needs-steer-away-excessive-toll-drivers-already-have) on the matter from The Virginian-Pilot from the next day. IMO she is 100% right on the matter, plus travelers to the Outer Banks can also use the upgraded US 17 to US 158 in Elizabeth City or even further south to US 64 to avoid the toll.
The upgraded US 17 will also be tolled on the new bridge over the Southern Branch, though it will be a lower toll than VA 168 during peak times...
Mike
Quote from: Mapmikey on September 17, 2015, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 17, 2015, 10:59:53 PM
Well at least a couple months ago, Chesapeake was considering raising the speed limit on VA 168 to possibly get more toll revenue. Would it work? I doubt it.
Article about raising the speed limit (http://www.13newsnow.com/story/traffic/2015/07/09/could-raising-the-speed-limit-on-expressway-attract-drivers/29935001/) dated July 9, 2015.
Kerry Dougherty's opinion (http://hamptonroads.com/2015/07/chesapeake-needs-steer-away-excessive-toll-drivers-already-have) on the matter from The Virginian-Pilot from the next day. IMO she is 100% right on the matter, plus travelers to the Outer Banks can also use the upgraded US 17 to US 158 in Elizabeth City or even further south to US 64 to avoid the toll.
The upgraded US 17 will also be tolled on the new bridge over the Southern Branch, though it will be a lower toll than VA 168 during peak times...
Mike
Correct, though I am sure some with sneak through Deep Creek on US 17 Business to avoid that. ;-)
I do not know how I missed this one: (From The Virginian-Pilot, October 29, 2015)
Chesapeake to lower speed limit on route to OBX that bypasses tolls (http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/chesapeake-to-lower-speed-limit-on-route-to-obx-that/article_9a7c6c7e-7937-5d1a-91db-bb7058ff4303.html)
Basically, they lowered the speed limit on VA 168 Bus (Battlefield Blvd) in spots south of Hillcrest Pkwy from 55 (50 by Hickory High School) to 50 or 45 in an attempt to get more to pay the VA 168 toll.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 27, 2016, 05:22:47 PM
I do not know how I missed this one: (From The Virginian-Pilot, October 29, 2015)
Chesapeake to lower speed limit on route to OBX that bypasses tolls (http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/chesapeake-to-lower-speed-limit-on-route-to-obx-that/article_9a7c6c7e-7937-5d1a-91db-bb7058ff4303.html)
Basically, they lowered the speed limit on VA 168 Bus (Battlefield Blvd) in spots south of Hillcrest Pkwy from 55 (50 by Hickory High School) to 50 or 45 in an attempt to get more to pay the VA 168 toll.
Wonder what the 85th percentile speeds are there in the peak-flow direction? If they are less than 45, then this will do little to get shunpikers to pay the toll on Va. 168.
Wonder if any of the powers that be in Chesapeake have considered if the at-grade signalized intersection at the junction of Va. 168/Va. 168 Business/Gallbush Road might also encourage northbound traffic to turn off of Va. 168 onto Va. 168 Business?
Building an interchange there, and perhaps tolling the ramps that enter Va. 168 southbound and exit Va. 168 northbound might be a way to encourage traffic to stay on Va. 168.
There are some people that live in Chesapeake south of this point - perhaps they could be granted a steep discount for using those ramps with E-ZPass, which should reduce or eliminate objections by city residents.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 27, 2016, 07:11:46 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 27, 2016, 05:22:47 PM
I do not know how I missed this one: (From The Virginian-Pilot, October 29, 2015)
Chesapeake to lower speed limit on route to OBX that bypasses tolls (http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/chesapeake-to-lower-speed-limit-on-route-to-obx-that/article_9a7c6c7e-7937-5d1a-91db-bb7058ff4303.html)
Basically, they lowered the speed limit on VA 168 Bus (Battlefield Blvd) in spots south of Hillcrest Pkwy from 55 (50 by Hickory High School) to 50 or 45 in an attempt to get more to pay the VA 168 toll.
Wonder what the 85th percentile speeds are there in the peak-flow direction? If they are less than 45, then this will do little to get shunpikers to pay the toll on Va. 168.
Wonder if any of the powers that be in Chesapeake have considered if the at-grade signalized intersection at the junction of Va. 168/Va. 168 Business/Gallbush Road might also encourage northbound traffic to turn off of Va. 168 onto Va. 168 Business?
Building an interchange there, and perhaps tolling the ramps that enter Va. 168 southbound and exit Va. 168 northbound might be a way to encourage traffic to stay on Va. 168.
There are some people that live in Chesapeake south of this point - perhaps they could be granted a steep discount for using those ramps with E-ZPass, which should reduce or eliminate objections by city residents.
What bothers me more is that the city seemed to do this as a copout of raising the speed limit on VA 168, as the article says they did not want to do the more detailed study.
Some may see it as a cop-out, but the city is not wrong in that VDOT would require a fairly detailed study to consider a higher limit. And it's quite possible that such a study would force the city to do improvements to the expressway before they could post a higher speed limit. Some of the delays in VDOT posting higher limits on other routes (like 70 MPH on some Interstate segments) were due to them having to complete safety upgrades first.
As for dropping the speed limit on Battlefield Blvd, there's been A LOT of development in the vicinity of Hillcrest Pkwy which is likely contributing to the change.
Quote from: froggie on February 27, 2016, 10:01:29 PM
Some may see it as a cop-out, but the city is not wrong in that VDOT would require a fairly detailed study to consider a higher limit. And it's quite possible that such a study would force the city to do improvements to the expressway before they could post a higher speed limit. Some of the delays in VDOT posting higher limits on other routes (like 70 MPH on some Interstate segments) were due to them having to complete safety upgrades first.
The AADT on the tolled part of Va. 168 is
low (but probably much higher in the Outer Banks tourist season) at only 9400, but dramatically higher at better than 70,000 near the I-64 interchange.
Still, a higher speed limit on Va. 168
might also require an air quality conformity determination by the Hampton Roads Planning District Commission's staff. Lowering speed limits do not trigger the need for a conformity determination.