(https://i.imgur.com/58Qbfz0.jpg)
This is a street blade assembly in St. Louis County. These street blades are erected at intersections containing one or more thoroughfares maintained by the St. Louis County Dept. of Transportation, and as far as I'm aware, the specs for its design are, sadly, nowhere to be found.
Has anyone seen this design elsewhere? I'm dying to figure out how they're designed because they're utterly gorgeous.
Furthermore, what do street blades look like where you all live, and, in your opinion, what's the best looking street blade you've seen? Far too often, I see poorly designed street blades that are borderline illegible and I always appreciate when I can read the name of the street I'm driving on.
Definitely not anything you can find in North Carolina, for the most part. I have a particular liking for blue street blades in Clearview with a rounded outline and square corners. A local emblem on the street blade is also nice, I like the city of Charlotte's crown on theirs.
A lot of street blades here in North Carolina are pretty...bad. The NCSMUTCD (North Carolina Supplement to the MUTCD) states that street blades are the responsibility of the county or the municipality, and it's usually the only thing road-wise maintained on the local level here. NCDOT maintains almost everything.
As a result of this, you get some pretty...bad street blades. Incorrect shades of green, incorrect fonts, (lime green and Algerian, anybody? absolutely beautiful /s) tons of extra green space, and in general, they're just...awful. Only a handful of municipalities actually do the street blades right, most of them are awful. Here in my county, most street blades are in all-caps Arial or Arial Narrow, with some of them having way too much green space and the wrong shade of green.
For me, it's the ones I grew up with in Chicago, and that's the signs with the street name on top and the block number on the bottom; it gives you a better clue as to where you are. Also, the ones with the direction prefix are useful to me.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on November 27, 2018, 10:59:15 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/58Qbfz0.jpg)
This is a street blade assembly in St. Louis County. These street blades are erected at intersections containing one or more thoroughfares maintained by the St. Louis County Dept. of Transportation, and as far as I'm aware, the specs for its design are, sadly, nowhere to be found.
Has anyone seen this design elsewhere? I'm dying to figure out how they're designed because they're utterly gorgeous.
Furthermore, what do street blades look like where you all live, and, in your opinion, what's the best looking street blade you've seen? Far too often, I see poorly designed street blades that are borderline illegible and I always appreciate when I can read the name of the street I'm driving on.
Like the design, but not the mounting. Most communities in Massachusetts, and MassDOT as well, have been moving away from bracket-mounting to using back to back SNS panels mounted through square tube telescopic posts. Much more durable than the brackets, especially during windy conditions.
Champaign County, Ohio, and more recently Licking County, have been using these. I like them because they're easily legible and uncluttered. They are odd in a way in that they omit "Rd" for roads, but they do use the suffix for everything else.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/e69545739fcf0b5dd5b24471f12bd3a0.jpg)
I finally found the specifications for the St. Louis County street blades! It was hidden deep within the transportation department's section of the site, under the Standard Drawings section.
Here's a link to the PDF. (https://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/docs/Document%20Library/highways/Standard_Drawings/C90310.pdf)
Favorite is probably the style Springfield, MO was using in 2008 when I lived there. Simple, includes all the information you'd ever need, and plus, it uses the chocolate mixed-case FHWA.
(https://i.imgur.com/wMWRGTE.jpg)
Norman's current style is pretty good, although it uses vanilla Series B. They omit the block information on non-arterials.
(https://i.imgur.com/Z7vESBH.jpg)
Plus, they do some pretty rad stuff with shields on them.
(https://i.imgur.com/e8BhvrI.jpg)
Honorable mention goes to Kansas City, KS, which I don't seem to have any photos of. It's a nice, simple all-caps style that I've always liked. Not a fan of what they've been trying since the 2009 MUTCD came out and required mixed-case, though.
I've always liked Philly's design.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F53%2F121483763_1e5afec408_m.jpg&hash=55fb49c3cc529e7c9756754ddb887dc26966ad9f)
Usually they'll add a one-way sign as part of the panel; often for signed routes they'll include the shield and letter directions with arrows.
I have always been a fan of Denver's street blades, including both the regular design (https://goo.gl/maps/5CBm2bewSFK2) and the one used at traffic signals (https://goo.gl/maps/23wzAjFjWWF2).
One weird thing I've noticed about numbers on street blades -- they mean different things depending on where you are. In some areas like Denver, they typically refer to the grid coordinate of the street it's on, so Kalamath would be equivalent to 1100 West in the second example above (and a corresponding address on Cedar would be 1100 W Cedar Ave). But in other places like New Mexico, they refer to the coordinate of the street you are on. For example, on this sign in Albuquerque (https://goo.gl/maps/sFMHNH1wsqL2), that 6300 refers to the addressing on San Mateo, and a corresponding address on Academy would actually be 5300 based on the other sign at that intersection.
Perhaps it's just due to familiarity, but I'm partial to the design that was prevalent in the township where I grew up. It's a simple, elegant design with a few touches to make it look finished but not to the point of looking overwrought or compromising legibility. And I like the stamped metal.
I assume it's a standardized type that was mass produced by a sign manufacturer since I've seen these in a few communities–and simply by searching "street sign" on a Google image search, I was able to find a few examples.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4872/32246563088_3496397017_c.jpg)
I have one of those in my collection that says HYRDAULIC–presumably from Wichita, Kansas.
I admire the ones in Marietta, GA for being easily readable from a distance (mostly on account of being gigantic). Also for including block numbers without cramming them into a small space.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ften93.com%2Froadphotos%2Fmarietta_street_blade.jpg&hash=7cf851814deec207668e0bbb224487c2980d0d9d)
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2018, 09:57:40 AM
Norman's current style is pretty good, although it uses vanilla Series B. They omit the block information on non-arterials.
The new ones going up here in my town look exactly like this. They're fine. Better than the previous ones (all-caps Series C (I think, maybe B), and smaller).
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2018, 10:52:26 AM
I have always been a fan of Denver's street blades, including both the regular design (https://goo.gl/maps/5CBm2bewSFK2) and the one used at traffic signals (https://goo.gl/maps/23wzAjFjWWF2).
One weird thing I've noticed about numbers on street blades -- they mean different things depending on where you are. In some areas like Denver, they typically refer to the grid coordinate of the street it's on, so Kalamath would be equivalent to 1100 West in the second example above (and a corresponding address on Cedar would be 1100 W Cedar Ave). But in other places like New Mexico, they refer to the coordinate of the street you are on. For example, on this sign in Albuquerque (https://goo.gl/maps/sFMHNH1wsqL2), that 6300 refers to the addressing on San Mateo, and a corresponding address on Academy would actually be 5300 based on the other sign at that intersection.
I, too, am a fan of the Denver designs. I believe that Denver might be the only place where the block numbers listed on the blades correspond to the grid coordinate of the street you're crossing instead of the street you're on. Where I grew up (Orange County), the block numbers, if listed, indicate the street you're on. I think Denver's are much more helpful.
Here, in Parker, CO, we have street blades and lit street signs on the signals that match in terms of design, although the fonts are all over the place on the signal signs.
https://goo.gl/maps/XJxSvmojiwp
https://goo.gl/maps/xtkXrggZppm
As far as my favorite, I don't know if I have A favorite, but I do like the LED street blades on traffic lights in my hometown (Anaheim), as seen here:
https://goo.gl/maps/6huHBoMdroB2
But for regular street blades, I kinda like the ones in neighboring Orange:
https://goo.gl/maps/8n5PLx7qftL2
And in Redlands, CA:
https://goo.gl/maps/KSJakwqZEtT2
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
I have one of those in my collection that says HYRDAULIC–presumably from Wichita, Kansas.
Wow, a spelling error street blade?? :-D
/me is currently typing from a location
on Hydraulic.
Quote from: Mark68 on November 30, 2018, 12:36:56 PM
I believe that Denver might be the only place where the block numbers listed on the blades correspond to the grid coordinate of the street you're crossing instead of the street you're on. Where I grew up (Orange County), the block numbers, if listed, indicate the street you're on. I think Denver's are much more helpful.
Most (all?) numbers on street blades in Utah are the grid coordinates as well, which is unsurprising given that a lot of roads there are actually
named by their coordinate. I've also seen the coordinates used in Phoenix. I agree that they're much more helpful than block numbers: if I'm driving on 6th Street, seeing a 600 on every sign I pass is not going to be heipful.
Of course, you could always just go the way some Phoenix suburbs have gone and put both numbers on the sign (https://goo.gl/maps/yx4yXR5nBD92).
Assuming there's a street blade for both streets at a given intersection, then you'll get to see both sets of information anyway.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both ways of doing things. For the sake of this illustration, I picked a random intersection in Denver:
heading north on Pearl Street, approaching Virginia Avenue (https://goo.gl/maps/jtdx72XEHCv).
The sign most visible to you is [Virginia Ave][500 S].
Advantage: It lets you know you're crossing the 500 South line of the address grid. Say, if you're looking for someone's house at 204 S Pearl, then you know you have about three blocks to go.
Disadvantage: If you've been reading house numbers as you go, then you already know you're crossing the 500 South line of the address grid. But if you're looking for someone's house at 518 E Virginia, then you can't tell from the sign which way you should turn.
Wichita's system annoys me.
For the sake of this illustration, I picked a random intersection in Wichita:
heading east on Central Avenue, approaching Saint Paul Street (https://goo.gl/maps/8pECJimmUHT2).
The sign most visible to you is [St Paul][600 N]. This corresponds to the address grid along St Paul, not Central. So now you should know which way to turn if you're looking for 613 N Saint Paul. But wait! Central is not actually the 600 North line of Saint Paul. It's actually the 700 North line. "600 N" actually refers to the 600-block of Saint Paul. Street blades on the right side of the street have a different number than street blades on the left side of the street.
To find out how far along your street you are, you look at your street's blade. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, they only use whole-100 block numbers. This means that, at two consecutive intersections, you might see the same 100-block on your street's blade. So, for example, along 2nd Street North: Bluff is 3800 East (https://goo.gl/maps/yqAC5EHNfU72), but somehow so is Quentin (https://goo.gl/maps/eTBjffxp49m)–and there are houses in between them! This is not useful for navigation.
My preference is the Denver system, which is also what Chicago does. And I do like Chicago's street blades (https://goo.gl/maps/GZ3QLhadrV92). Basic, to the point, with grid numbers included. However, I think they're only for stoplights; minor intersections don't list the grid numbers.
Edited because I confused myself.
For me, all-caps disqualifies a street blade from the "best" category. Even putting MUTCD compliance aside, mixed case is clearly so much easier to read from a distance, and in my opinion just looks better.
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2018, 03:30:08 PM
Quote from: Mark68 on November 30, 2018, 12:36:56 PM
I believe that Denver might be the only place where the block numbers listed on the blades correspond to the grid coordinate of the street you're crossing instead of the street you're on. Where I grew up (Orange County), the block numbers, if listed, indicate the street you're on. I think Denver's are much more helpful.
Most (all?) numbers on street blades in Utah are the grid coordinates as well, which is unsurprising given that a lot of roads there are actually named by their coordinate. I've also seen the coordinates used in Phoenix. I agree that they're much more helpful than block numbers: if I'm driving on 6th Street, seeing a 600 on every sign I pass is not going to be heipful.
Of course, you could always just go the way some Phoenix suburbs have gone and put both numbers on the sign (https://goo.gl/maps/yx4yXR5nBD92).
Colorado Springs does this as well (at least on relatively new traffic lights), but they make it confusing:
https://goo.gl/maps/b9i6BYkyxRt
If you don't know in which direction you're heading (you don't know that the mountains are west of you), then you may not know which block applies to which street in which direction.
Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2018, 04:19:05 PM
Advantage: It lets you know you're crossing the 500 South line of the address grid. Say, if you're looking for someone's house at 204 S Pearl, then you know you have about three blocks to go.
FTFY.
Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2018, 04:19:05 PM
Disadvantage: If you've been reading house numbers as you go, then you already know you're crossing the 500 South line of the address grid. But if you're looking for someone's house at 518 E Virginia, then you can't tell from the sign which way you should turn.
But you would have noted that Pearl was 600 East when you first turned onto it (and then probably passed several more street signs confirming it), and you'd be able to tell you're heading north by the fact that the "south" coordinates you pass are getting smaller. In addition, most cars these days have a compass. Given that knowledge, you'd know you needed to make a left.
Now that you've mentioned Pearl, I remember eating at a delicious Asian restaurant on Pearl about ten years ago. Unfortunately, it looks like it's now gone...
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 30, 2018, 04:35:02 PM
For me, all-caps disqualifies a street blade from the "best" category. Even putting MUTCD compliance aside, mixed case is clearly so much easier to read from a distance, and in my opinion just looks better.
I've always found mixed case street blades harder to read from long distances unless they're physically large. For smaller 9" and 6" street blades, though, all caps can be more legible since every letter is tall.
There are some municipalities that really can't design mixed case street blades without them looking like utter shit, so I guess I've just grown accustomed to St. Louis County's gorgeous street blades. Maybe I'll make a mock-up of an STL county spec blade in mixed case to see how it looks.
(https://i.imgur.com/iGwXSrL.png)
I've designed what I like to see in a street blade. Kind of messy but it gets the point across.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on November 30, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 30, 2018, 04:35:02 PM
For me, all-caps disqualifies a street blade from the "best" category. Even putting MUTCD compliance aside, mixed case is clearly so much easier to read from a distance, and in my opinion just looks better.
I've always found mixed case street blades harder to read from long distances unless they're physically large. For smaller 9" and 6" street blades, though, all caps can be more legible since every letter is tall.
FHWA has enough studies saying that mixed-case is more legible that, in 2009, they began requiring all blades to be in mixed case. The reason is because the ascenders and descenders on lowercase letters form a distinct shape/pattern that the brain recognizes faster, whereas words in all caps form a squarish block.
If St. Louis County is still posting all-caps blades, they are not in compliance with the MUTCD. Otherwise, you should be able to find a mixed-case one somewhere and see for yourself what it looks like.
Quote from: kphoger on November 30, 2018, 01:52:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
I have one of those in my collection that says HYRDAULIC–presumably from Wichita, Kansas.
Wow, a spelling error street blade?? :-D
/me is currently typing from a location on Hydraulic.
Give me a break, it was ass o'clock in the morning when I posted that :-D
The two Vancouvers seem to do it for me!
Vancouver, BC's grey-ish/brown-ish street blades have this odd trapezoidal shape. Very timeless but unique:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdavievillage.ca%2Fimages%2Ftourism%2Fsightseeing%2Frobson-street.jpg&hash=cbd8e5cd62a85ae174e32a7464f2339803f8f784)
image from davievillage.ca
Vancouver, WA's black-on-white street blades are also a timeless but unique design. Not unique to Vancouver at all, but seemingly rarer in US cities than ever before. Vancouver went through this brief phase where they used black-on-yellow (https://goo.gl/74X35Y) street blades...glad they got away from that. I am patiently awaiting their first back-lit black-on-white street blade:
(https://i.imgur.com/q6gZp0N.png)
Renton, WA used black-on-white street blades for a long time as well, and in a way that I really liked, but has moved away from them as their signals slowly move away from pole-mount-only:
(https://i.imgur.com/TiLJvix.png)
I like what we do in Nevada. Here's some of my favorite styles — note that block numbers are of the intersecting street:
For normal street name signs:
*Southern Nevada City of Las Vegas/Unincorporated Clark County current standard (https://goo.gl/maps/inZbtbgQ9sH2) (The white-on-brown denotes privately-maintained streets, which is also mentioned on the sign). Henderson uses a similar standard, but incorporates the city logo. North Las Vegas uses similar standard, but is white-on-blue for normal streets and blue-on-white for privately maintained streets.
*Northern Nevada: City of Reno current standard (https://goo.gl/maps/Jjoy9VmzNAS2)
For traffic signal street name signs:
*Southern Nevada: City of Las Vegas/Unincorporated Clark County current standard (https://goo.gl/maps/t6a6bYtufVF2) (doesn't always include a white border). I appreciate these newer signs having the street name really big to aid in readability from a distance.
*Northern Nevada: City of Sparks current standard (https://goo.gl/maps/MxV95J9qYk92). Although I think the city logo could be smaller and the street suffix should be all caps, I appreciate the block number now includes an arrow to indicate direction of increasing address numbers.
*Classic: Old statewide standard, no longer widely specified (https://goo.gl/maps/8RSj7an6YjQ2). Still prevalent in many areas of the state, but virtually non-existent in the Las Vegas area anymore (phase out/replacement began in earnest during the late 1990s/early 2000s).
Indianapolis takes on the Chicago and Denver method of writing addresses on street blades that feature the block of the road you are traveling on as opposed to the block of the road your crossing. I always found it interesting that the street signs were marked that way since most other places had the more standard way of having the block number correspond to the road your crossing. The city used to have white signs with black lettering years ago but has since gone to a typical white-on-green style. Overall the sign styles are pretty decent with traditional FHWA font.
This is an example of the signs at a typical traffic signal: https://goo.gl/maps/D9mnvJ3erwA2
This being at Kessler Blvd and College Avenue, the address block on Kessler is mentioned above the College sign and vice versa.
This is a more standard intersection design, primarily for junctions between arterials/collector streets, this being at Dean Road and 71st Street: https://goo.gl/maps/XVymnuFm25z
This last style is more unique and one I really wish was implemented elsewhere, or at least in Downtown Indy, it also features a very rare usage of Clearview: https://goo.gl/maps/kZPZJbJJWW62
This is at Meridian and Maryland in Downtown, there used to be similar signs at the Meridian/Georgia intersection one block south.
Just below that last example is a unique Wholesale District street blade, which is more common in the southern half of Downtown Indy (the titular Wholesale District) but again the address format is the same.
Quote from: briantroutman on November 30, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4872/32246563088_3496397017_c.jpg)
↑ This type just looks classy. ↑
These are the street blades in Kirkwood, my home town. I believe they have a rather small minimum blade width, so they use condensed Helvetica. Grrr.
(https://i.imgur.com/wMbUgOG.jpg)
I like any town that still uses embossed blades. Lots of small towns in Indiana and Illinois that do.
I also like towns that have unique colors, as long as they keep a reasonable font.
My favorite is El Monte, CA. Green arc over a rectangular brown sign, definitely unique as I haven't seen anything like it elsewhere. This GSV image shows both the standard blades and the overheads. https://goo.gl/maps/qGX4ALFyR8Q2
The new ones gradually cropping up around Los Angeles are pretty nice as well. http://militantangeleno.blogspot.com/2011/03/signs-of-times.html
From Mead, WA (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7870901,-117.3531526,3a,50.3y,71.69h,89.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7YXxgTtB1A5zV-x80SRs3Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656):
(https://i.imgur.com/FDFpySl.png)
Can't get any better than that!
Our street signs here typically look like this and I'm partial to this style because I'm used to it and because it is a huge improvement over the previous style, which is seen in the second photo. The blue signs with the larger type became standard for visibility reasons–the smaller green ones were simply determined to be too small, especially for older people.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FBE3224CD-F0E7-46B2-AB03-8E3F1BA3539F_zpspo7tjpwh.jpg&hash=5be08b8234073ac5753a47d29f1644e9c14e3479)
Old style:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F9B800EE2-6281-4384-863D-15074A8AE23C_zps0w8y12vv.jpg&hash=756385c2bba7ea038c7f1ba42f66a5638d82077c)
Here is one of the new style with mixed-case type. This looks fine to me, but on signs with letters like "g" it doesn't seem to work as well because the tail goes down onto the border part and it doesn't look right:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FD7E70B15-A583-4E00-BCA4-5346E91920F7_zpsr5nhzkzf.jpg&hash=45b746f39fa0e66a76f9b25b5f9605ed3274daa2)
Here's an example of "g" causing problems:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F632B1C01-BEF5-4EC4-AB2A-B209B7678395_zpsievmp7ae.jpg&hash=05e4388c0a110112eaa2ebec7306832146ad09a5)
Someone at VDOT may have had the same objection, because some newer installations use a different style blade that I think is ugly. The lack of the raised border makes it look unfinished to me, probably because I've seen the raised style for 40+ years. I don't have a picture, but here's a Street View of one I pass almost every day:
https://goo.gl/maps/YtRQHyyY7j62
One font I highly NON recommend: Bodini, a favorite in Garfield County, CO.
https://goo.gl/maps/9ZTh91tXuSq
Bodini? I've never heard of it. There's a very famous typeface named Bodoni, but it bears no resemblance to the street blade shown in your link.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/ITCBodoni.png)
Quote from: thenetwork on March 02, 2019, 01:54:15 PM
One font I highly NON recommend: Bodini, a favorite in Garfield County, CO.
https://goo.gl/maps/9ZTh91tXuSq
Reminds me of some on Cape Cod, Mass.
Quote from: briantroutman on November 30, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4872/32246563088_3496397017_c.jpg)
Black capitals on white is my favorite type, too. Oddly, mixed case black on white doesn't really do anything for me.
I also like Santa Barbara's, but this is not a widely held opinion:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2Fqyv5lh.png&hash=7f97b7ee343401b70065aa495c560e02766fce54)
Quote from: jakeroot on December 01, 2018, 02:39:33 AM
Renton, WA used black-on-white street blades for a long time as well, and in a way that I really liked, but has moved away from them as their signals slowly move away from pole-mount-only:
(https://i.imgur.com/TiLJvix.png)
Those original black on white blades date from a 1973 rebuild of downtown, but they are gradually making new black on white signs, these ones with reflectivity. Here you can see three generations of street blade: (https://goo.gl/maps/MjMVhBqFgDk) New black on white, signal arm green and standard green across the street.
I always liked New Jersey's stoplight street blades: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5378474,-74.3602172,3a,15y,337.22h,114.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZFBdSk4MdNWuVp58P3vomw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on March 03, 2019, 11:23:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 01, 2018, 02:39:33 AM
Renton, WA used black-on-white street blades for a long time as well, and in a way that I really liked, but has moved away from them as their signals slowly move away from pole-mount-only:
(https://i.imgur.com/TiLJvix.png)
Those original black on white blades date from a 1973 rebuild of downtown, but they are gradually making new black on white signs, these ones with reflectivity. Here you can see three generations of street blade: (https://goo.gl/maps/MjMVhBqFgDk) New black on white, signal arm green and standard green across the street.
Nice to see they haven't completely abandoned them. There's a new signal at 2nd/Main/Bronson that doesn't have any black & white street blades, so I'm not sure they're used versus when they're not.
My favorite NYC Classics (https://d3h6k4kfl8m9p0.cloudfront.net/stories/2LV7an5u2kIiTdvFM7m5Ag-smallw.jpg) (Image Not Mine)
Quote from: jakeroot on March 04, 2019, 04:09:23 PM
Nice to see they haven't completely abandoned them. There's a new signal at 2nd/Main/Bronson that doesn't have any black & white street blades, so I'm not sure they're used versus when they're not.
The 2nd/Main/Bronson intersection is outside the area rebuilt in 1973 and never got black and white signs.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on March 07, 2019, 10:20:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 04, 2019, 04:09:23 PM
Nice to see they haven't completely abandoned them. There's a new signal at 2nd/Main/Bronson that doesn't have any black & white street blades, so I'm not sure they're used versus when they're not.
The 2nd/Main/Bronson intersection is outside the area rebuilt in 1973 and never got black and white signs.
I see. So the black and white street blades are only in that tighter downtown core? Or in other words, new black and white street blades are only used
if the previous intersection had them? More stringent rules than most cities around here!
I was always a fan of this style (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4275864,-98.4885577,3a,15y,294.17h,114.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE-RUXI7LTkG0ErbleTCY6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) of sign that was used in downtown San Antonio, and the version for the rest of the city (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4551585,-98.4706388,3a,15y,321.43h,88.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sbynY2iCG6avMSH3P5RAgRQ!2e0!5s20110301T000000!7i13312!8i6656) looked pretty good, too.
The mixed-case versions have shrunk the block numbers to where they're not really legible from any kind of distance, and San Antonio has a habit of arbitrarily stretching or compressing the text, which does not look good at all with Clearview (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4281868,-98.4860865,3a,15y,78.74h,98.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSUgMsmnCEWRPt2y72b0MyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). However, Austin has recently started using a San Antonio-type design for blades at signalized intersections and the results look much better (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2703236,-97.7434585,3a,15y,304.28h,103.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdCI5wNi4JYz9DaE2fQbjtQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Boston's vintage street blades are the best, especially from the '60s/early '70s...most of them are being replaced by newer versions.
Some examples...
Kerna Rd in West Roxbury: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2593405,-71.1611913,3a,75y,167.18h,79.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYf0_zoGL9O5i9cUh4u32Rg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Grove St at Bussey St (Dedham Line):
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.256539,-71.1559684,3a,75y,73.85h,74.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9A_gdqw0ayPUeN-MFGfFFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Beacon St westbound:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3463068,-71.1067474,3a,75y,339.5h,93.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg7IKBInzezcBl_21riiVsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Beacon St eastbound:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3460569,-71.1067221,3a,15y,114.51h,93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMqxBxbmt7O9aB7gAUR4Zyw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I've actually become a fan of Mesa, AZ's new street blades. They are in mixed case FHWA Series C with the block number and are quite legible from a distance. Previously when Mesa used Clearview most of them were in all-caps. Mesa has been replacing a lot of their street blades lately, so the mixed-case FHWA street blades are actually becoming very common. Apparently they don't seem to have any plans to go back to Clearview. And I think it is a good decision to use Series C instead of Series B like some cities do. Overhead blades use Series D (some illuminated).
San Francisco has such a classic blade design. I'll give it the top mark for attractive style in the western US. I do like the ones in Marietta GA from a practical design standpoint. They are so easy to read!
Rick
Reviving this topic because St. Louis County just comprehensively updated their standard drawings and new signs have begun to appear!
(https://i.imgur.com/beh9VA1.jpg)
This design hasn't yet appeared in the new standard drawings, so I emailed the St. Louis County Department of Transportation and they essentially said that since the MUTCD requires mixed case lettering on street name signs to make them more legible to older drivers, they would begin rolling out these new versions. The new back-to-back SNS panel mounting method is also vastly superior to brackets. St. Louis County never had a major problem with brackets, though; nearly every St. Louis County-maintained intersection has a perfectly aligned bracketed street sign assembly. The new design will appear in the new standard drawings in due time; they're scheduled to take effect on May 1, 2020.
On wide arterial roads with speed limits above 45 mph, these larger variants would be used to sign the minor roads and the sign for the major road would remain the standard size. Here, the speed limit of Manchester Rd is 45 mph and Dietrich Rd is a minor residential street.
What makes this more interesting is that it looks like St. Louis County is using a modernized or redrawn version of FHWA Series B here – look at the shape of the "e" and "c" and compare them to the standard alphabets in the MUTCD (or SHS; can't remember which of which document the alphabets are a component).
Quote from: wolfiefrick on April 28, 2020, 08:20:55 PM
Reviving this topic because St. Louis County just comprehensively updated their standard drawings and new signs have begun to appear!
(https://i.imgur.com/beh9VA1.jpg)
This design hasn't yet appeared in the new standard drawings, so I emailed the St. Louis County Department of Transportation and they essentially said that since the MUTCD requires mixed case lettering on street name signs to make them more legible to older drivers, they would begin rolling out these new versions. They'll appear in the new standard drawings in due time; they're scheduled to take effect on May 1, 2020.
On wide arterial roads with speed limits above 45 mph, these larger variants would be used to sign the minor roads and the sign for the major road would remain the standard size. Here, the speed limit of Manchester Rd is 45 mph and Dietrich Rd is a minor residential street.
What makes this more interesting is that it looks like St. Louis County is using a modernized or redrawn version of FHWA Series B here – look at the shape of the "e" and "c" and compare them to the standard alphabets in the MUTCD (or SHS; can't remember which of which document the alphabets are a component).
That reminds me a bit of Delaware's newer street blades.
Speaking of, these new installations (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0418155,-75.454578,3a,15y,334.51h,93.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srg4Mi6uxkvghZsehTJG6FA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Drg4Mi6uxkvghZsehTJG6FA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D336.98044%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) in the area of the DE-1/Bowers Beach Road/Clapham Road interchange (there are a few) are the only ones I know of that have the state's older two-line design for road names that have at least two words. What's interesting is that this wasn't a two-line assembly in the past.
Older two-line assemblies looked like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6615789,-75.7358217,3a,15.1y,301h,91.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shZslYo1Qnkyuw1E1HFzr-w!2e0!5s20070901T000000!7i13312!8i6656), but are being replaced with this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.661566,-75.7358144,3a,15y,309.78h,93.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNIrDT6xO1Q4Veg65erfOTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Quote from: wolfiefrick on April 28, 2020, 08:20:55 PM
Reviving this topic because St. Louis County just comprehensively updated their standard drawings and new signs have begun to appear!
[clipped]
I'm a bit confused. I've been seeing mixed-case in STL for a while now. The intersections around the 64/170 interchange come to mind as being new when I was last there, and Street View confirms that street blades were mixed-case back then. Unless there's different standards for those mounted above stop signs, and I just don't remember noticing.
Although it hadn't been rebuilt when I was there last, the intersection of McCausland and Clayton also has mixed-case signs (circa 2014); are these maintained by the state?
Quote from: jakeroot on April 28, 2020, 10:19:08 PM
I'm a bit confused. I've been seeing mixed-case in STL for a while now. The intersections around the 64/170 interchange come to mind as being new when I was last there, and Street View confirms that street blades were mixed-case back then. Unless there's different standards for those mounted above stop signs, and I just don't remember noticing.
Although it hadn't been rebuilt when I was there last, the intersection of McCausland and Clayton also has mixed-case signs (circa 2014); are these maintained by the state?
Yeah, there are different standards for overhead/stoplight signage and atop-stop-sign assemblies. St. Louis County is still going to hang onto the bracketed all-caps signs for minor residential streets in subdivisions, but main roads will get the mixed case treatment for non-signalized intersections, too.
I think the McCausland/Clayton intersection is maintained by St. Louis City, though – it's just barely within the city limits and the city is not a part of the county.
as mentioned previously, North Carolina has a wide variety of street blade designs, some of which are.... bad. One thing NCDOT does that bugs me involves the wording on some street blades. Sometimes state/US highways will be signed on street blades in a format like "NC 150 Hwy" or "US 70 Hwy". One particularly bad instance I saw the other day in Apex read "US Hwy #64". Like come on, there is no reason for the # symbol on a street blade.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on April 28, 2020, 08:20:55 PM
What makes this more interesting is that it looks like St. Louis County is using a modernized or redrawn version of FHWA Series B here – look at the shape of the "e" and "c" and compare them to the standard alphabets in the MUTCD (or SHS; can't remember which of which document the alphabets are a component).
That's actually the
older version of lowercase Series B that some private business drew up before there were standard lowercase letters in SHS. It still floats around and gets used instead of the standard alphabets sometimes, which I appreciate, since it's much better than the standard ones, in my opinion. For lack of a better term I usually call this version the "chocolate" FHWA Series, in contrast to vanilla FHWA Series found in SHS.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2020, 09:17:27 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on April 28, 2020, 08:20:55 PM
What makes this more interesting is that it looks like St. Louis County is using a modernized or redrawn version of FHWA Series B here – look at the shape of the "e" and "c" and compare them to the standard alphabets in the MUTCD (or SHS; can't remember which of which document the alphabets are a component).
That's actually the older version of lowercase Series B that some private business drew up before there were standard lowercase letters in SHS. It still floats around and gets used instead of the standard alphabets sometimes, which I appreciate, since it's much better than the standard ones, in my opinion. For lack of a better term I usually call this version the "chocolate" FHWA Series, in contrast to vanilla FHWA Series found in SHS.
Ah, that would explain it. I like this version much better. Do you know if there's a place I can get it? Or at least the alphabets so I can draw my own version?
Given that it's not an official government standard, I don't think a standard version of the alphabets exist. At some point someone uploaded a version of them by the name PIXymbolsHG*2002 (where the * is the series letter), but there's also a version of them with the same name that uses the vanilla glyphs. They also choked in Inkscape, which implies there's something mis-specified in the TTF files. If I remember correctly I could only get Series C to work properly.
It would probably be best if someone drew their own version and released them for hobbyist use, but that would probably involve a lot of eyeballing from/tracing over photos. One nice thing is that the chocolate glyphs are lowercase only; the upper-case is the same as the vanilla glyphs. 3
ETA: Page 1 of this thread has a good number of examples of the chocolate variety. The 'e' is a dead giveaway, since the counter space doesn't stay at a constant distance from the exterior outline of the glyph. 'o' is also quite a bit narrower/more oval than it is in vanilla. 's' is also a good example; the terminals actually somewhat line up with the outlying curves, instead of stopping short as they do in vanilla.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2020, 10:22:25 PM
Given that it's not an official government standard, I don't think a standard version of the alphabets exist. At some point someone uploaded a version of them by the name PIXymbolsHG*2002 (where the * is the series letter), but there's also a version of them with the same name that uses the vanilla glyphs. They also choked in Inkscape, which implies there's something mis-specified in the TTF files. If I remember correctly I could only get Series C to work properly.
I just did a bit of research on the PIXymbols Highway Gothic family. The PIXymbols fonts were drawn by a guy named Rob Vershen under the name of a foundry called Page Studio Graphics (www.vershen.com (http://www.vershen.com)).
There are two entries in the catalog for Highway Gothic.
- The first is PIXymbols Highway Gothic B to E(M), which, according to Vershen, were drawn to the specifications outlined in the standard alphabets from 1966 and 1977 (reprinted in '84 and '82, respectively – I assume he's talking about the imperial and metric standards). Although the FHWA Series outside of E(M) has only had lowercase letters since 2002, these fonts appear to all have lowercase glyphs, but I can't find a download for them anywhere.
- The second is PIXymbols Highway Gothic 2002 (series B to F), which was released in 2002 in accordance with the version of the Standard Highway Signs manual from that same year. The alphabets are drawn to the specifications from the 2002 revision to the millennium edition of the MUTCD. This typeface appears to be the variant you mentioned which uses vanilla glyphs, so the earlier version probably has chocolate glyphs.
While combing through the internet to try to find a download for either of those fonts, a sketchy Russian font board had a download for a "PF Highway Gothic Compressed," a FHWA Series B trace designed by Parachute Fonts which has a copyright date of 1993-2002 – before the FHWA added lowercase letters to all variants of Highway Gothic. Strangely enough, Parachute Fonts' website doesn't even show the typeface, but it definitely exists.The lowercase glyphs in PF Highway Gothic Compressed are much more akin to the chocolate glyphs in the sign I posted earlier, but there are some minor differences. For instance, the letter "c" in the mysterious St. Louis County font has tapered terminals, but in PF HG Comp, the stroke width is uniform; the terminal of the "e" is not as angular as it is in the St. Louis County font either. Those same tapered terminals on the lowercase "c" are actually present in PIXsymbols Highway Gothic Series C (not the 2002 version), but not Series B like in the St. Louis County font. This is very interesting.