The illegal closure of the Cumberland Gap highway.

[bicyclehazard]

A tunnel has been built through the Cumberland Gap and the ownership of the tunnel and old highway has been transferred to the state parks system.  Public law 93-87 sec 160 ordered the state park system to provide adequate for traffic capacity through the gap. Since the act has been written traffic in the United States has doubled. The parks department choose to spend 5 million dollars to destroy the old section of highway. Even if the old highway was maintained there would not now be adequate capacity. The tunnel cost 280 million which is twice the estimate. Because of this maintenance has not kept up on the other highways in the area. Highway 74 which is one route around the tunnel is falling down the mountain. Sections have subsided so that curves now have negative banking. Guard rails are now below the level of the pavement. There is loss of pavement along the entire road with 3 feet sections of pavement missing making the road one lane. I have no reason to believe the other roads around the tunnel are in any better shape. All of the roads in the area are subject to rock and mud slides. The roads have been stressed to the point of preventing an emergency evacuation. People will die and there will be a congressional investigation.  The park has no unique features to merit a national park status. The state park system is broke. So I recommend closing the park. Using park funds to rebuild the roads.                                                 

[jeffandnicole]

Mudslides were one of my favorite drinks on my recent vacation. 

[LM117]

Contact the POTUS. I'm sure he'll post a sternly worded tweet. That'll show 'em.

[froggie]

- National Park Service, not state parks.

- I have never heard of nor seen a capacity issue at the tunnel.  Kentucky traffic data suggests around 20,000 vpd, which a 4-lane limited access tunnel is plenty adequate for that volume of traffic.

- The tunnel was largely paid for by the Federal government.  Paying for it had ZERO impact on other state highways in the area.

- If you have problems with Highway 74, you need to take that up with the state of Kentucky.

[oscar]

The statute cited by the OP doesn't quite support his point.

SEC. 160. (a) Notwithstanding the definition of parkways in sub-section (a) of section 101, funds available for parkways shall be available to finance the cost of reconstruction and relocation of Route 25E through the Cumberland Gap National Historical Park, including construction of a tunnel and the approaches thereto, so as to permit restoration of the Gap and provide adequate traffic capacity.
(b) Upon construction, such highway and tunnel and all associated lands and rights-of-way shall be transferred to the National Park Service and managed as part of the Cumberland Gap National Historical Park.

Two points:

-- The only thing Congress authorized to "provide adequate traffic capacity" through the Gap was construction of the tunnel and its new approach roads. Nothing about other roads in the area. As froggie notes, a four-lane tunnel is still plenty to "provide adequate traffic capacity".

-- Might the National Park Service's destruction of the old highway be consistent with "restoration of the Gap", another objective of building the tunnel?

[hbelkins]

A tunnel has been built through the Cumberland Gap and the ownership of the tunnel and old highway has been transferred to the state parks system.  Public law 93-87 sec 160 ordered the state park system to provide adequate for traffic capacity through the gap. Since the act has been written traffic in the United States has doubled. The parks department choose to spend 5 million dollars to destroy the old section of highway. Even if the old highway was maintained there would not now be adequate capacity. The tunnel cost 280 million which is twice the estimate. Because of this maintenance has not kept up on the other highways in the area. Highway 74 which is one route around the tunnel is falling down the mountain. Sections have subsided so that curves now have negative banking. Guard rails are now below the level of the pavement. There is loss of pavement along the entire road with 3 feet sections of pavement missing making the road one lane. I have no reason to believe the other roads around the tunnel are in any better shape. All of the roads in the area are subject to rock and mud slides. The roads have been stressed to the point of preventing an emergency evacuation. People will die and there will be a congressional investigation.  The park has no unique features to merit a national park status. The state park system is broke. So I recommend closing the park. Using park funds to rebuild the roads.                                               

[1995hoo]

The statue also doesn't say the tunnel must continuously be modified so as to guarantee adequate traffic capacity at every possible future date. The OP's comments are, as usual, somewhat garbled, but it seems to me what he's trying to say is (1) nationwide traffic has doubled, so (2) he assumes traffic near Cumberland Gap must have doubled, and (3) that means the tunnel isn't adequate, therefore (4) the law requiring "adequate capacity" is being violated. Even setting aside the very valid point froggie made about the actual traffic counts there, the statute simply doesn't require what the OP seems to think it does.

[hbelkins]

The statue also doesn't say the tunnel must continuously be modified so as to guarantee adequate traffic capacity at every possible future date. The OP's comments are, as usual, somewhat garbled, but it seems to me what he's trying to say is (1) nationwide traffic has doubled, so (2) he assumes traffic near Cumberland Gap must have doubled, and (3) that means the tunnel isn't adequate, therefore (4) the law requiring "adequate capacity" is being violated. Even setting aside the very valid point froggie made about the actual traffic counts there, the statute simply doesn't require what the OP seems to think it does.

I've been through that tunnel many times, and have never noticed any capacity issues, not even when US 25E was being used as a long-distance detour when I-75 was closed between Jellico and Caryville. The big issue is all the traffic lights in Middlesboro, which can cause some slowdowns. I've only had to stop a couple of times when a HM load was being taken through under escort.

As to KY 74, it carries between 300 and 800 vehicles per day across that mountain, which would rank it fairly low in terms of expensive maintenance when compared to other two-lane highways in District 11. I've been on KY 74 and there's a whole lot of nothing on that road once you get outside of Middlesboro.

I don't think bicycles are prohibited in the tunnel, which would seem to be the root of his rant, given his claim that the old road was closed and a much faster, safer road was built in its place.

[oscar]

The statue also doesn't say the tunnel must continuously be modified so as to guarantee adequate traffic capacity at every possible future date. The OP's comments are, as usual, somewhat garbled, but it seems to me what he's trying to say is (1) nationwide traffic has doubled, so (2) he assumes traffic near Cumberland Gap must have doubled, and (3) that means the tunnel isn't adequate, therefore (4) the law requiring "adequate capacity" is being violated. Even setting aside the very valid point froggie made about the actual traffic counts there, the statute simply doesn't require what the OP seems to think it does.

The OP also seems to assume that the four-lane tunnel was adequate only for 1973 traffic volumes, with no room for future growth. Quite plausible that the tunnel was overbuilt for 1973 volumes, to avoid future new construction that would interfere with restoration of the Cumberland Gap.

[1995hoo]

The statue also doesn't say the tunnel must continuously be modified so as to guarantee adequate traffic capacity at every possible future date. The OP's comments are, as usual, somewhat garbled, but it seems to me what he's trying to say is (1) nationwide traffic has doubled, so (2) he assumes traffic near Cumberland Gap must have doubled, and (3) that means the tunnel isn't adequate, therefore (4) the law requiring "adequate capacity" is being violated. Even setting aside the very valid point froggie made about the actual traffic counts there, the statute simply doesn't require what the OP seems to think it does.

I've been through that tunnel many times, and have never noticed any capacity issues, not even when US 25E was being used as a long-distance detour when I-75 was closed between Jellico and Caryville. The big issue is all the traffic lights in Middlesboro, which can cause some slowdowns. I've only had to stop a couple of times when a HM load was being taken through under escort.

As to KY 74, it carries between 300 and 800 vehicles per day across that mountain, which would rank it fairly low in terms of expensive maintenance when compared to other two-lane highways in District 11. I've been on KY 74 and there's a whole lot of nothing on that road once you get outside of Middlesboro.

....

I've never been to Cumberland Gap–I would like to get there, but it's hard to find time given the distance and the fact that it's not convenient to anywhere else I'd be going–and I therefore have no basis for comment about the tunnel's adequacy one way or the other. In the scheme of things, though, if I have to decide whether I find comments from you, froggie, and Oscar more credible or the OP's post more credible, that's an easy call–obviously I'm going to find you, froggie, and Oscar to be the more reliable sources given your long history of credibility.

[Rothman]

In terms of the area not warranting an NPS site, the Cumberland Gap has enormous historical significance, as it was one of Daniel Boone's paths west through the mountains; I believe it was the first.

Civil War battles happened in the park's boundaries, including a site where retreating troops blew up an ammo pile to deter their pursuers.

To deny the significance of the area is pure poppycock.

[seicer]

It also has significant geological features, if the OP actually bothered to go hiking or backpacking along the Ridge Trail. White Rocks. Hidden waterfalls. Sand Cave. Endless overlooks. Tri-State Point. Several caves.

This post is pure horsehockey.

[hbelkins]

The gap itself is pretty significant geologically/geographically. That's why the old road was built through it.

[jeffandnicole]

Even his last 3 sentences don't make much sense:

The state park system is broke. So I recommend closing the park. Using park funds to rebuild the roads.

If the State Park system is broke, how does one use funds not there to rebuild roads?

If the state were to close the park, it would allow them to free up funds to operate their other parks.  Almost guaranteed if the park was decommissioned, the remaining park funds wouldn't be permitted to be used on a road that no longer goes thru a state park.

[seicer]

Absent the fact it's a National Park, and federal funds that were used to operate Cumberland Gap NHP cannot be magically reallocated to state funds, especially for road maintenance.

The state park system is also not broke. It's been drained of funds for decades for a variety of reasons by a variety of administrations. They do not generate a profit nor has it ever - and that's not the point of having the park system in the first place.

[hbelkins]

Yeah, the whole rant is nonsensical. It's a federal park, not a state park. And even if it was a state park, funding for state parks and state highways comes from two totally different sources.

[Mapmikey]

They even returned the original road to its 1700s appearance...and can now resume being a postal road in full compliance.

[kphoger]

So, to recap, for those just tuning in...

A tunnel has been built through the Cumberland Gap and the ownership of the tunnel and old highway has been transferred to the state parks system.

Nope.  That would be the National Park Service, not the state parks system.

Public law 93-87 sec 160 ordered the state park system to provide adequate for traffic capacity through the gap.

And thus was built a four-lane tunnel, which provided adequate traffic capacity.

Since the act has been written traffic in the United States has doubled.

Which doesn't mean traffic through the tunnel has doubled.  But, either way, that's not the same thing as saying it no longer provides adequate traffic capacity today.  For that to be determined, some tipping point would need to be established (AADT?  average transit time?  length of traffic backups?) and then measured.  The AADT suggested by froggie is easily accommodated by a four-lane tunnel.

The parks department choose to spend 5 million dollars to destroy the old section of highway.

Interesting point.  Is this allowed by the statute?  The NPS was tasked with "[managing] the highway and tunnel and all associated lands and rights-of-way ... as part of the Cumberland Gap National Historical Park."   Does the destruction of something violate the terms of managing that something?

Even if the old highway was maintained there would not now be adequate capacity.

^{[citation needed]}

The tunnel cost 280 million which is twice the estimate. Because of this maintenance has not kept up on the other highways in the area. Highway 74 which is one route around the tunnel is falling down the mountain. Sections have subsided so that curves now have negative banking. Guard rails are now below the level of the pavement. There is loss of pavement along the entire road with 3 feet sections of pavement missing making the road one lane.

Nope, not because of it.  The money for the tunnel did not come from the same pool as provides money for the other roads' maintenance.

I have no reason to believe the other roads around the tunnel are in any better shape. All of the roads in the area are subject to rock and mud slides.

But that doesn't mean they actually aren't in any better shape.  You know what they say about assumptions.

The roads have been stressed to the point of preventing an emergency evacuation.

This is a non-sequitir.  How do roads being stressed prevent an emergency situation?  Perhaps you meant they've been stressed to the point that we need to prevent a possible emergency situation.

People will die and there will be a congressional investigation.

Firstly, most roads at some point suffer from lack of maintenance to some degree.  That doesn't make the deterioration illegal, just a fact of life in a world with a finite amount of money.  Secondly, if someone dies, it isn't necessarily a direct result of the road conditions.  But maybe it is.  Again, though, that's no different than on any other road.  Could the NPS be held liable for a death deemed to be the direct result of poor maintenance.  Possibly, but that's all purely hypothetical.

The park has no unique features to merit a national park status.                                               

It does have unique historic and geological features.

The state park system is broke. So I recommend closing the park. Using park funds to rebuild the roads.

The funding of the state park system has no bearing on the condition of a road in national historical park.  And if the Cumberland Gap National Historical Park were closed, then we can assume the NPS would be absolved of its responsibility to maintain a way through the Gap, because 93-87§160 states it must be "managed as part of the Cumberland Gap National Historical Park"  and would no longer apply.  If you're so adamant about the statute, then you certainly must also be against the closing of the park.  Besides which, then those funds would just be diverted to other federal parks projects, not state highways.

[SectorZ]

https://forums.adventurecycling.org/index.php?topic=14891.0

Appears our new member has tried this in other forums, more cycling directed. This HAS to be the same person.

[Takumi]

This is next level tinfoil hattery.

[1995hoo]

https://forums.adventurecycling.org/index.php?topic=14891.0

Appears our new member has tried this in other forums, more cycling directed. This HAS to be the same person.

Click on that person's username and read the other posts. Absolutely the same person.

[Mapmikey]

Traffic Counts in 1975 (US Population was 219M):

US 25E n of US 58:  10,398
US 25E s of US 58:  9,005
US 58 westernmost segment: 3,335

Traffic Counts in 1995 (US population was 266M):

US 25E n of US 58:  12,000
US 25E s of US 58:  12,000
US 58 westernmost segment: 3,500

The 2016 count for US 58's westernmost segment is 6,300 (US population was 323M).

Despite the fact that traffic doubled faster than the population, the tunnel is more than adequate (for comparison, I-77 traffic for both directions at the WV state line tunnel is 30,000 and I don't hear many complaints about 77 north of Wytheville).  Widening the original fairly dangerous road would've required destroying the park.  Doing nothing at all would've been problematic, though I believe traffic would not have jumped the way it has since 1995 had there been no tunnel and therefore a smoother way to get from I-40 to I-75.

[Beltway]

https://forums.adventurecycling.org/index.php?topic=14891.0
Appears our new member has tried this in other forums, more cycling directed. This HAS to be the same person.

I got an e-mail from him about a week ago, he found my Cumberland Gap Tunnel website article.  Seemed his main complaint was about bicycle access across the mountain, that the old road was obscured and that the tunnel prohibited bicycles and pedestrians.  I suggested lobbying for some kind of ferry service thru the tunnel for bicycles and pedestrians.

[bicyclehazard]

The gap has significance because it was a road through a mountain pass. My main objection to this type of road blockage is the surprise factor. You are on vacation or heading for a job site like I did when planting trees for the forest service only to be turned back for carrying a propane tank. I know these are prohibited in some tunnels. So you have wasted several hours of your valuable weekend going around a diversion that need not be there. Now I'm not going to give bad people bad ideas on this forum or even through email with officials. But if there is a fire like occurred in nearby Gatlinburg the tunnel will be closed because of smoke. People always die in these fires generally the very old and very young from toxic smoke inhalation or liver failure. I can do risk assessment math and there are disasters both natural and man made through malice that will result in the closure of the tunnel. The park system has chosen to impose tolls on roads in other park systems on roads that existed before these parks. I have cycled through Lassen and crater lake. Do you really want this in the gap? Congress created the act for the express purpose of improving traffic through the gap. They could have chosen to build a new road or improved other roads. You will need to learn the hard way. You should know I have predicted two train derailments. The one that killed an entire river in California. Though I thought it would happen just south of Dunsmuir. Plus the one that happened at Ohio Valley Hardware in Evansville In. 

[hbelkins]

The old route of US 25E had a nickname. "Massacre Mountain," they called it. I never understood why there were so many fatalities on that road. Going south, the road was three lanes (two southbound, one northbound) on the Kentucky side, narrowing to two lanes at the Virginia state line. It was of better quality than a lot of through routes in eastern Kentucky.

I'm old enough to remember when there was a "+" intersection in Virginia, where the secondary route into Cumberland Gap turned right and US 58 turned left. The road widened to four lanes right at the Tennessee state line.

If our aggrieved OP wants to register a complaint, I suggest he do so with U.S. Rep. Harold Rogers (R-KY 5th), who played a major role in the funding for the tunnel and the restoration of the Wilderness Road inside Cumberland Gap NHP.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Hal Rogers' office when that complaint is received.

Traffic count info snipped...

On the Kentucky side, the latest count for US 25E just north of the tunnel is just short of 20K with nearly 13 percent of that being truck traffic.

The count jumps to nearly 21K near the shopping area, but the truck percentage decreases to just above 7 percent. The count increases to nearly 24K near the KY 441 intersection, then dips below 20K north of KY 441.