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Group Department Stores into five tiers

Started by Pink Jazz, May 09, 2018, 03:22:23 PM

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Roadrunner75

Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 12, 2018, 10:52:07 AM

Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.

I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.

Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved.  You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store.  Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments.  The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.

My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors.  Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not.  At least in my mind.

* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them.  Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's.  They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items.  And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.

Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.

I would still put Kohl's more on the traditional department store side (Sears/Penneys/Macy's) even with the registers and stand alone stores in strip malls.  Besides the definitions above, I still look at it like "would this make sense being the anchor of a mall, with direct access and often multiple floors", which traditionally here in NJ at least would be those stores and not a Walmart, Kmart or a Target (but also not a Kohl's).  That of course is not a good definition and is simply based on the historical anchors of malls which will probably change drastically in the future.


ftballfan

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 12, 2018, 11:48:17 AM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 12, 2018, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.

I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.

Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved.  You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store.  Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments.  The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.

My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors.  Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not.  At least in my mind.

* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them.  Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's.  They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items.  And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.

Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.

I would still put Kohl's more on the traditional department store side (Sears/Penneys/Macy's) even with the registers and stand alone stores in strip malls.  Besides the definitions above, I still look at it like "would this make sense being the anchor of a mall, with direct access and often multiple floors", which traditionally here in NJ at least would be those stores and not a Walmart, Kmart or a Target (but also not a Kohl's).  That of course is not a good definition and is simply based on the historical anchors of malls which will probably change drastically in the future.
Kohl's is an (original) anchor in the 1999-built RiverTown Crossings in Grandville, MI. There were many small town malls that had Kmart as an anchor.

spooky

The idea of a "discount department store" was pioneered at Ann & Hope in RI in the 1950s. Wikipedia refers to Ann & Hope as a "self-service" department store, because typical department stores at the time had sales people in each department to help you.  Ann & Hope also had shopping carts and a central register area like a supermarket, unlike other department stores at the time.

Sam Walton is said to have got ideas for his Wal-Mart store from a visit to Ann & Hope.

I think of Walmart, Kmart and Target as discount department stores, with Sears, JC Penney and Macy's as traditional department stores. Yes the lines have blurred over time (Sears uses shopping carts, for example) which makes it harder to define Kohls. I would call Kohls a traditional department store just because of the merchandise they carry.

abefroman329

Quote from: spooky on May 14, 2018, 07:10:07 AM
Wikipedia refers to Ann & Hope as a "self-service" department store, because typical department stores at the time had sales people in each department to help you.

That's also how they referred to the original grocery stores that were set up that way.

Flint1979

Quote from: ftballfan on May 13, 2018, 12:13:28 AM
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 12, 2018, 11:48:17 AM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 12, 2018, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.

I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.

Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved.  You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store.  Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments.  The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.

My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors.  Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not.  At least in my mind.

* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them.  Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's.  They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items.  And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.

Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.

I would still put Kohl's more on the traditional department store side (Sears/Penneys/Macy's) even with the registers and stand alone stores in strip malls.  Besides the definitions above, I still look at it like "would this make sense being the anchor of a mall, with direct access and often multiple floors", which traditionally here in NJ at least would be those stores and not a Walmart, Kmart or a Target (but also not a Kohl's).  That of course is not a good definition and is simply based on the historical anchors of malls which will probably change drastically in the future.
Kohl's is an (original) anchor in the 1999-built RiverTown Crossings in Grandville, MI. There were many small town malls that had Kmart as an anchor.
Hampton Towne Centre in Essexville had a Kmart as an anchor.

dvferyance

Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.

kkt

Quote from: dvferyance on May 21, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.

And the "not about to die" part.

Pink Jazz

Quote from: dvferyance on May 21, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.

I disagree; JCPenney does carry some brands at a higher pricepoint than Sears.  IZOD and Van Heusen are notable examples.  JCPenney is more comparable to Kohl's as far as apparel goes.

ftballfan

Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 21, 2018, 07:17:18 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on May 21, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.

I disagree; JCPenney does carry some brands at a higher pricepoint than Sears.  IZOD and Van Heusen are notable examples.  JCPenney is more comparable to Kohl's as far as apparel goes.
Also, Penney's has spent a lot more $$$ in the last 20-30 years in infrastructure than Sears (JCP has a sizable number of strip mall locations in recent-growth areas)

webny99

JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.

Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.

Flint1979

Quote from: webny99 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.

Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
I would indeed put JCPenney ahead of Sears and put Target ahead of Walmart. You should see the Sears store in my town I was in there last night to enter the mall and you would think the store was closing from the way it looks they were moving everything around in one section of the store. I don't see Saginaw's Sears store on the list posted 3 days ago though.

Kohl's around here is usually in a stand alone building at least the one in Saginaw is. The other Tri-City location in Midland is in a little plaza with Five Below, Michael's, Marshall's and Ultra Beauty and there is a stand alone Dollar Tree in front of the plaza. I can't think of any Kohl's that's a mall anchor though, although it probably wouldn't do too bad being one.

Brandon

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.

Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
I would indeed put JCPenney ahead of Sears and put Target ahead of Walmart. You should see the Sears store in my town I was in there last night to enter the mall and you would think the store was closing from the way it looks they were moving everything around in one section of the store. I don't see Saginaw's Sears store on the list posted 3 days ago though.

Kohl's around here is usually in a stand alone building at least the one in Saginaw is. The other Tri-City location in Midland is in a little plaza with Five Below, Michael's, Marshall's and Ultra Beauty and there is a stand alone Dollar Tree in front of the plaza. I can't think of any Kohl's that's a mall anchor though, although it probably wouldn't do too bad being one.

Kohl's is an anchor in quite a few malls.  A short list:

Westland
Chicago Ridge Mall
Harlem-Irving Plaza
Spring Hill Mall
Stratford Square
Eastland Mall (Bloomington, IL)
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Flint1979

Quote from: Brandon on May 22, 2018, 02:12:35 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.

Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
I would indeed put JCPenney ahead of Sears and put Target ahead of Walmart. You should see the Sears store in my town I was in there last night to enter the mall and you would think the store was closing from the way it looks they were moving everything around in one section of the store. I don't see Saginaw's Sears store on the list posted 3 days ago though.

Kohl's around here is usually in a stand alone building at least the one in Saginaw is. The other Tri-City location in Midland is in a little plaza with Five Below, Michael's, Marshall's and Ultra Beauty and there is a stand alone Dollar Tree in front of the plaza. I can't think of any Kohl's that's a mall anchor though, although it probably wouldn't do too bad being one.

Kohl's is an anchor in quite a few malls.  A short list:

Westland
Chicago Ridge Mall
Harlem-Irving Plaza
Spring Hill Mall
Stratford Square
Eastland Mall (Bloomington, IL)
I've never seen them. I haven't been in Westland Mall in years, I generally don't hang out in that part of Wayne County.

Flint1979

It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.

ftballfan

Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
RiverTown Crossings has Kohl's as an anchor alongside Macy's and JCPenney (and Sears and Dick's)

dvferyance

Quote from: ftballfan on May 22, 2018, 03:56:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
RiverTown Crossings has Kohl's as an anchor alongside Macy's and JCPenney (and Sears and Dick's)
Also Gurnee Mills as both Kohl's and Macy's as anchors.

Flint1979

Quote from: ftballfan on May 22, 2018, 03:56:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
RiverTown Crossings has Kohl's as an anchor alongside Macy's and JCPenney (and Sears and Dick's)
That mall seems to have quite a few anchor stores. It'll be losing Younkers.

I've seen Best Buy as an anchor store before but I can't recall which mall I was in I've seen them as an anchor twice. One I know was Harlem-Irving Plaza in Chicago, actually Norridge if you want to be exact. I'm thinking that the other one was in Palisades Mall in New York.

The traditional setting to me always was JCPenney, Sears and Hudson's (now Macy's of course). That's how Fashion Square Mall was and still is except Hudson's now being Macy's.

hbelkins

How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?

First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.

I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?

First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.

I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.

The Christiana Mall in Delaware is a very strong regional mall, due to Delaware's lack of a sales tax.  Overall, the mall tends to sway slightly towards the mid-to-upper elite shopper.  Yet, several years ago they added a Target as an anchor, which surprised me. 

For as busy as the mall and shopping complex is, there's only 2 actual entry points: From I-95/DE 1 South, and from DE 1/DE 7 North.  Both put you on the south and southwest parts of the shopping complex.

hbelkins

I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

abefroman329

Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?

First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.

I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.

Springfield Mall in Springfield, VA has a Target as an anchor. I believe Prince George's Plaza did too.

abefroman329

Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.

Because it's more convenient to drive up to whatever store you need than to park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.

oscar

Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.

Traditional malls have the disadvantages of tying up interior space (and the costs of heating and cooling it) for inside corridors, plus (for ones with more than one level) additional space and maintenance expenses for escalators and elevators. One of the oldest malls in my area, Seven Corners Center, converted in the 1990s from a two-level traditional mall to a bi-level strip mall, largely for those reasons, as well as all its anchor stores going out of business. 

Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.

Springfield Town Center (formerly Springfield Mall) has Target as one of its anchors. It took over the two-level space previously occupied by Montgomery Ward. Not only did Target keep the escalators, it added separate shopping cart escalators.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
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kphoger

Quote from: abefroman329 on May 22, 2018, 07:20:45 PM
park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.

You forgot to mention panties.  Without fail, you always end up parking by the door that leads to women's lingerie.

Don't look at the panties.  Everyone will notice you looking at the panties, and they'll think your a pervert.  PANTIES!!  hehehehehe.....  No, don't look!  Ah, geez, now that lady thinks I'm a pervert.  Hmmm, I wonder what kind of panties she....NO!!  STOP IT!!
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kkt

Or even worse, perfume.  And perfume department helpers who spray everybody they can reach without asking first.



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