Communicating with other drivers

[webny99]

So, ever since I started this thread, I've been pondering how to recount this episode without disclosing the location. Some of you who have been to - or frequent - the Rochester area may figure it out anyways, but here goes:

In the general vicinity of my neighborhood, a four-lane road and a two-lane road intersect at a traffic signal. There are no turn lanes on any of the approaches - just two through lanes per direction on the main road, and one through lane per direction on the local street.

The other evening I was on the main four-lane road, heading in the non-peak direction, preparing to make a left turn onto the local street. Being familiar with the area, I know that cross-traffic, headed in the peak direction at rush hour, will fill the entire green light cycle, and therefore I wouldn't be able to proceed until the light turned yellow (or red). Across the intersection from me, there was also a line, to turn left in the other direction.

And behind me, there was a car that very foolishly pulled right up to my bumper, despite seeing my blinker and having the opportunity to proceed via the right lane*. So as soon as everyone else went past and the right lane was clear, I saw him in my mirror starting to pull out and go around me. And across from me, the car turning left started to pull out, seeing me in the left lane and a clear right lane. Instantly, envisioning an inevitable accident, I held up my hand to say "Stop!". The car behind me, unaware of this, pulled out and cleared the intersection. And then the car across from me pulled out and turned left, giving me a wave that said "thank you" as he passed in front of me. I was (a) relieved to have helped avert an accident, and (b) empowered to have been trusted by another driver.

So there you have one story of successful communication between drivers. I'm yet to be convinced that attempting to physically communicate is always appropriate, but there are definitely cases where valuable information can be conveyed.



*I might clarify - the road widens from two lanes to four (or narrows from four to two, however you look at it) several hundred feet past the intersection. So the said car was approaching in the single lane, got to choose between two available lanes, and chose the left one, clueless as to the fact that I was stopped there and would be for the entire light cycle.

[mrcmc888]

I use the wave as both an apology and motioning someone to go at a stop sign.  If I'm impatient or in traffic (usually both) I will also wave more angrily if the car in front of me stops the instance the light turns yellow, especially if it's a long yellow and we both could have made it through.  (Yes, I know you're not supposed to do that, but my area is known for having long yellows and most people in traffic go through them if they're the car at the intersection when the light starts to turn.  I always seem to get caught behind someone who either doesn't know that you're supposed to go through the intersection if you're at the light when it turns, instead of slamming on brakes, or someone who takes a full minute to register that the light has turned green and backs up everyone behind them even more.)

[kphoger]

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??  Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right.  But yeah, this intersection is right by my house, for example.  And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty.

[abefroman329]

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??

Yes. Every single intersection is, at minimum, a two-way yield.

[kphoger]

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??

Yes. Every single intersection is, at minimum, a two-way yield.

But your profile says you're in Chicago.  It only took me a few tries to locate an uncontrolled intersection in your area.

[webny99]

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??  Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right.  But yeah, this intersection is right by my house, for example.  And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty.

Wow! Yeah, I have never seen a totally uncontrolled four-way intersection. If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Now, I have seen a few uncontrolled three-ways, especially at the outlet of cul-de-sacs, but there is still usually a stop or yield sign on the less-important street.

[Tonytone]

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??  Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right.  But yeah, this intersection is right by my house, for example.  And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty.

Woah concrete streets. Those cribs were built in the 50-60's eh.


iPhone

[kphoger]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education???  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??  Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right.  But yeah, this intersection is right by my house, for example.  And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty.

Woah concrete streets. Those cribs were built in the 50-60's eh.

My house was built in 1951.  But that has nothing to do with the material used for the street.  The street in the first picture just had a re-paving done last year in concrete.

[Tonytone]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.

Seriously??  Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??  Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right.  But yeah, this intersection is right by my house, for example.  And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty.

Woah concrete streets. Those cribs were built in the 50-60's eh.

My house was built in 1951.  But that has nothing to do with the material used for the street.  The street in the first picture just had a re-paving done last year in concrete.

I believe if we go back to the 50's, they were using concrete more in residential neighborhoods & Driveways. I believe because it looked nicer & sleeker. We all know every neighborhood that was being built at the time was the "American Dream"  home.

& Also. Have you ever seen an uncontrolled intersection & a major road!!!!


iPhone

[kphoger]

& Also. Have you ever seen an uncontrolled intersection & a major road!!!!

Yes, all over Mexico.  Taking turns at intersections is so ingrained in Mexican drivers' minds, that an uncontrolled intersection at a busy downtown street corner actually functions better than other options.  Here is a busy corner in a town I go to every year that was converted to an uncontrolled intersection several years ago.  It works better now than it did before they removed traffic control.  And here is an uncontrolled intersection on a state highway at the edge of town.

[Roadrunner75]

People used to turn their lights off then on at night if you noticed a speed trap on the other side of the highway to warn oncoming cars. Don't see that anymore.

I still do it, 95% Of people think you are just telling them their lights are off.

I still see this occasionally, and sometimes I do it myself.  It's usually flashing the high beams over turning the lights off, though.  Generally off/on means "your lights are off".  The danger with flashing the beams for speed traps is inadvertently doing it to an oncoming police car or one that is is front of you going the same way.  I know of a few instances of people getting pulled over for this.  And of course, as mentioned elsewhere here, flashing the beams also is commonly used for "you go first" and to let truckers know they have enough clearance to pull back into your lane in front of you.

I've occasionally thought about getting a small dry erase board and keeping it next to me to write out quick messages:  "Lights On!"..."Flat Tire!"..."Dragging Pedestrian!"..."Pterodactyl on Roof!"....various profanities.  You know...the typical stuff.

[webny99]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education???  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).

Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?

[Tonytone]

People used to turn their lights off then on at night if you noticed a speed trap on the other side of the highway to warn oncoming cars. Don't see that anymore.

I still do it, 95% Of people think you are just telling them their lights are off.

I still see this occasionally, and sometimes I do it myself.  It's usually flashing the high beams over turning the lights off, though.  Generally off/on means "your lights are off".  The danger with flashing the beams for speed traps is inadvertently doing it to an oncoming police car or one that is is front of you going the same way.  I know of a few instances of people getting pulled over for this.  And of course, as mentioned elsewhere here, flashing the beams also is commonly used for "you go first" and to let truckers know they have enough clearance to pull back into your lane in front of you.

I've occasionally thought about getting a small dry erase board and keeping it next to me to write out quick messages:  "Lights On!"..."Flat Tire!"..."Dragging Pedestrian!"..."Pterodactyl on Roof!"....various profanities.  You know...the typical stuff.

Thats a good idea, I always wondered how to reply. Its sad to see people dont know what "flashing lights"  means anymore. Has mankind lost their traditional values ? Sad you cant save people from tickets anymore cause they are to busy driving their cars with the DRL on.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education???  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).

Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?

How would you know the street you're approaching is more or less significant than the one you're on? What if both are state roads, or both are county roads?

[hotdogPi]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education???  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).

Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?

How would you know the street you're approaching is more or less significant than the one you're on? What if both are state roads, or both are county roads?

Width, presence or absence of center yellow line, businesses vs. houses, etc.

[Tonytone]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

[hotdogPi]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.

[Tonytone]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.

Yes but the Chances of side impact on this road is very high. People speed through here, it doesn't matter if cars are waiting or not.

[kphoger]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education???  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).

Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?

I give up.  Whereas it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area, I couldn't find a single one after 15 tries in various towns and cities of New York.  Mind blown.

Uncontrolled intersections should are just like four-way stops, except without the stopping.  They're basically four-way yields.  Whoever gets there first goes first; if it's a close call, then the car on the right goes first.

jeffandnicole is/are right:  Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion.  If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns.  Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard.  And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?

T intersections have an implied yield sign for the terminating road.  This is typically codified into state law.

[kphoger]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.

There's also a stop sign.

[Tonytone]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.

There's also a stop sign.

Damn you're right, but hey, stop signs are Yield on the East Coast!!

[kphoger]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.

There's also a stop sign.

Damn you're right, but hey, stop signs are Yield on the East Coast!!

And yield signs are traffic control.

[Tonytone]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.

It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.

There's also a stop sign.

Damn you're right, but hey, stop signs are Yield on the East Coast!!

And yield signs are traffic control.

What is a go sign then?

[webny99]

How would you know the street you're approaching is more or less significant than the one you're on? What if both are state roads, or both are county roads?

My assumption is that most uncontrolled four-way intersections in the continental United States are between two relatively low-volume residential streets, with the more significant of the two being whichever one outlets to the main network - or if both do, then whichever leads to the busier/more significant outlet. In other words, I don't envision high volumes at this type of intersection, at least in the US, anyways.

What is a go sign then?

Traffic lights count as traffic control no matter what color they are - or what they tell you to do - so the same should hold for physical signs. But first you need to find a bunch of go signs in widespread use somewhere. Then we'll decide whether they count as traffic control. 

[webny99]

I give up.  Whereas it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area, I couldn't find a single one after 15 tries in various towns and cities of New York.  Mind blown.

That's awesome; I can't even stop smiling!

Uncontrolled intersections should are just like four-way stops, except without the stopping.  They're basically four-way yields.  Whoever gets there first goes first; if it's a close call, then the car on the right goes first.

Except that if there actually were yield signs on all the approaches, everybody would stop and sit there, thinking the other people had the right-of-way. So I guess you just slow down and roll through if no one is coming - which is kind of cool, actually. I can't believe I've never seen this in action; maybe I'll have to keep looking for one in my area!

jeffandnicole is/are right:  Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion.  If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns.  Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard.  And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?

Again, I don't disagree, but I assume traffic unfamiliar with the area is usually <10% of all traffic; people who live in the neighborhood should know. Plus - on a semi-related note - a lot of new neighborhoods in NY seem to be built - perhaps intentionally? - with only three way intersections. Like this one. And this one. And this one (the one to the left of NY 250).

I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!