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Wisconsin notes

Started by mgk920, May 30, 2012, 02:33:31 AM

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SEWIGuy

Quote from: dvferyance on August 01, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
Well then how do you know the people do want it? It drives me nuts when you keep saying I am wrong without providing any proof. I have driven around Waukesha and I have seen lots of no bypass signs. Dosen't look so popular to me. I can use the same augment the other way around just becasue you support it doesn't mean it's the majority opinion.


Again, traffic projects really aren't subject to a "majority opinion" by locals.  Nor should they be. 

WIDOT identified it as a priority, and with most things like this, some people are for it, some are against it, but most don't really care.


triplemultiplex

Not exactly a scientific poll to go off of what signs people may have put out on the road(s) one happens to be driving on.  If I were to make assumptions based on that, it would seem as though everyone is against everything everywhere.  I thought most roadgeeks were attuned to the disproportionate attention a small group of NIMBY's tend to get.

No one makes a little yard sign to declare their support for an infrastructure project.  The majority either don't care or are casually fine with it.

Regarding the WI 318/Merrill Hills project; I personally find it to be an excellent project with a LOT of merit.  Mostly because the east leg of the Les Paul Pkwy doesn't make it to I-94, thus limiting its utility in moving vehicles from the south end of Waukesha to the north end of Waukesha.  The new western facility will connect directly to I-94.  I wish it had been built before the Zoo Interchange project because it would've been an attractive alternate route (along with WI 164) in getting me to the SW suburbs from Madison.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Milwaukee, WY

Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 01, 2018, 09:47:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 01, 2018, 08:04:52 PM
I have read comments for the proposed widening of STH-23 between Fond du Lac and Plymouth. It seems that other than 1000 Friends of Wisconsin, most of the people and government officials who gave comments support the expansion to four lanes.

I don't see why anyone wouldn't support it. Overall it seems like it would improve traffic safety and allow for easier access between Fond du Lac and Sheboygan.

Well, it's more pavement to maintain, for one. With the budget constraints DOT has been operating under lately, they've already been deferring maintenance on roads that already exist, like the Marquette interchange.


iPhone

dvferyance

#2178
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 01, 2018, 09:51:13 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 01, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
Well then how do you know the people do want it? It drives me nuts when you keep saying I am wrong without providing any proof. I have driven around Waukesha and I have seen lots of no bypass signs. Dosen't look so popular to me. I can use the same augment the other way around just becasue you support it doesn't mean it's the majority opinion.


Again, traffic projects really aren't subject to a "majority opinion" by locals.  Nor should they be. 

WIDOT identified it as a priority, and with most things like this, some people are for it, some are against it, but most don't really care.
It should be because it's our money they are spending and it effects our lives and not theirs. We should not keep spending money on things that the DOT thinks is best for us but may not be. Just because they identified it as a priority does not mean it's a good idea. This is why there is a shortfall in the transportation budget to begin with. Interesting that the argument changed from projects you don't like are not necessarily projects people don't want to whatever the will of the people is doesn't matter anyways because whatever the DOT deems necessary then that is what is gotta be regardless.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: dvferyance on August 18, 2018, 07:45:10 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 01, 2018, 09:51:13 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 01, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 19, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 19, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
Again the DOT did not care about the will of the people in fact they never do. This is how we could save money.

You keep saying "the will of the people" yet you're wrong. Of course there are people who don't want it - in fact those are often the most vocal types. However, that isn't "the will of the people". The reality is that these are things YOU don't like, and therefore, you use them as examples of waste. If you spent any time trying to make a turn from MacArthur Rd. to Merrill Hills road, you wouldn't say that the Waukesha West Bypass (which has been studied for years by the very community you say doesn't want it) is not in the best interest of the community.
Well then how do you know the people do want it? It drives me nuts when you keep saying I am wrong without providing any proof. I have driven around Waukesha and I have seen lots of no bypass signs. Dosen't look so popular to me. I can use the same augment the other way around just becasue you support it doesn't mean it's the majority opinion.


Again, traffic projects really aren't subject to a "majority opinion" by locals.  Nor should they be. 

WIDOT identified it as a priority, and with most things like this, some people are for it, some are against it, but most don't really care.
It should be because it's our money they are spending and it effects our lives and not theirs. We should not keep spending money on things that the DOT thinks is best for us but may not be. Just because they identified it as a priority does not mean it's a good idea. This is why there is a shortfall in the transportation budget to begin with. Interesting that the argument changed from projects you don't like are not necessarily projects people don't want to whatever the will of the people is doesn't matter anyways because whatever the DOT deems necessary then that is what is gotta be regardless.


My argument hasn't changed one bit.  The idea that locals should have veto power over projects to benefit the overall state transportation system is simply dumb.  I'm paying for the project in Waukesha just as much as you are.  It benefits me as a resident of this state.

But you are right about one thing.  (Shocker!!!)  Just because they identified it as a priority does not mean it's a good idea.  That's why they held hearings.  That's why they gathered feedback.  And you know what?  It was basically considered a good idea by most people involved.  There are cases where projects identified as a priority have been placed on a back burner based on such feedback.  The US-12 bypass of Fort Atkinson is an example.

Honestly, do some research and come prepared with more than just your Bellingesque opinions.  They don't fly when facts are actually presented.

GeekJedi

Quote from: dvferyance on August 18, 2018, 07:45:10 PM
This is why there is a shortfall in the transportation budget to begin with.

Actually, that's not why. There's a shortfall because these projects are identified and budgeted well in advance. In the meantime, the current legislature repealed the automatic gas tax increases, and refuse to raise it, meaning that the DOT no longer has the budget they planned for.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

mgk920

Yes, it is election season and he is up for re-election in early November, but I do find this to be encouraging.  Today (Wednesday, 2018-08-22), Wisconsin governor Scott Walker directed WisDOT to begin formally studying I-41 from WI 15 (Northland Ave) in Appleton to Scheuring Rd in De Pere for upgrading from four lanes to six lanes, this to match the six lanes that the highway already has on either side of those points.

This is a badly needed upgrade as traffic on this highway is looking more and more like the LOS-E and F that is seen after Packer games during every weekday commuter rush.

http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Gov-Walker-calls-on-DOT-to-look-at-expanding-I-41-corridor-491462751.html

Mike

MantyMadTown

Quote from: mgk920 on August 22, 2018, 09:31:02 PM
Yes, it is election season and he is up for re-election in early November, but I do find this to be encouraging.  Today (Wednesday, 2018-08-22), Wisconsin governor Scott Walker directed WisDOT to begin formally studying I-41 from WI 15 (Northland Ave) in Appleton to Scheuring Rd in De Pere for upgrading from four lanes to six lanes, this to match the six lanes that the highway already has on either side of those points.

This is a badly needed upgrade as traffic on this highway is looking more and more like the LOS-E and F that is seen after Packer games during every weekday commuter rush.

http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Gov-Walker-calls-on-DOT-to-look-at-expanding-I-41-corridor-491462751.html

Mike

Good. I-41 should be 6 lanes between Appleton and Green Bay.
Forget the I-41 haters

peterj920

Would think I-41 would be fairly easy to expand I-41 to 6 lanes between Hwy 15 and Kaukauna.  The only bridges that need to be rebuilt are over the CN Railroad, Gillett St, Hwy 55, and Maloney Rd.  The interchanges have all been rebuilt to modern standards, although I think they did a poor job with Wis 47 by not adding longer left turn lanes.  All of the other bridges pass over I-41 and have been raised in the last few years to accommodate modern height requirements.  Should just be able to add an additional lane each direction in the median and add a concrete barrier. 

20160805

Quote from: mgk920 on August 22, 2018, 09:31:02 PM
Yes, it is election season and he is up for re-election in early November, but I do find this to be encouraging.  Today (Wednesday, 2018-08-22), Wisconsin governor Scott Walker directed WisDOT to begin formally studying I-41 from WI 15 (Northland Ave) in Appleton to Scheuring Rd in De Pere for upgrading from four lanes to six lanes, this to match the six lanes that the highway already has on either side of those points.

This is a badly needed upgrade as traffic on this highway is looking more and more like the LOS-E and F that is seen after Packer games during every weekday commuter rush.

http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Gov-Walker-calls-on-DOT-to-look-at-expanding-I-41-corridor-491462751.html

Mike
This is very much a good thing - I don't think I can remember ever being on that stretch of US (I) 41 without being caught in a whole bunch of traffic swirling around me, and shoving 60,000 people each day through just four lanes is a bit ridiculous anyway IMO.
Left for 5 months Oct 2018-Mar 2019 due to arguing in the DST thread.
Tried coming back Mar 2019.
Left again Jul 2019 due to more arguing.

mgk920

Quote from: peterj920 on August 22, 2018, 11:06:15 PM
Would think I-41 would be fairly easy to expand I-41 to 6 lanes between Hwy 15 and Kaukauna.  The only bridges that need to be rebuilt are over the CN Railroad, Gillett St, Hwy 55, and Maloney Rd.  The interchanges have all been rebuilt to modern standards, although I think they did a poor job with Wis 47 by not adding longer left turn lanes.  All of the other bridges pass over I-41 and have been raised in the last few years to accommodate modern height requirements.  Should just be able to add an additional lane each direction in the median and add a concrete barrier.

From what I can tell, the highway's current surface and roadbed is a bodged together mix of materials and overlays of all different age vintages ranging from very recent to nearly 60 years old.  The east-west part from WI 15 across Appleton's north side and through Kaukauna was opened in 1960 and under that asphalt surface remains its original 1960 concrete.  Like what was done on all of I-41's now six-lane parts, the entire highway will have to be dug out and replaced, although it should all be doable within its existing ROW.  All of its current bridge structures should be fine with being widened and redecked, though.

Mike

Big John

Quote from: mgk920 on August 23, 2018, 10:46:19 AM
All of its current bridge structures should be fine with being widened and redecked, though.

Mike
For the Green Bay area reconstruction, most of the late 60s to mid 80s bridges were replaced, with the exception of the Ashland Ave interchange.

triplemultiplex

Might be cause to bump the I-41 thread if it's not just election year hot air.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

mgk920

Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 11:00:53 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 23, 2018, 10:46:19 AM
All of its current bridge structures should be fine with being widened and redecked, though.

Mike
For the Green Bay area reconstruction, most of the late 60s to mid 80s bridges were replaced, with the exception of the Ashland Ave interchange.

They all had to be realigned, too.  Many were in perfectly good condition, just in the wrong places for that upgrade.

Another example, check what is under the I-41 bridge over Cecil St in Neenah - even though that original 1960 or so overcrossing was completely rebuilt in the highway's early 1990s six-lane upgrade, its original support piers were kept with the new bridge's wider structure built around them and the original bridges' pre-stressed concrete beams were set aside and reused in the new structure.  IMHO, it is a very interesting case study for bridge engineers.

Mike

peterj920

Quote from: Big John on August 23, 2018, 11:00:53 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 23, 2018, 10:46:19 AM
All of its current bridge structures should be fine with being widened and redecked, though.

Mike
For the Green Bay area reconstruction, most of the late 60s to mid 80s bridges were replaced, with the exception of the Ashland Ave interchange.

In Green Bay, most of the bridges on I-41 traveled over local roads and had to be replaced since it's between 6-10 lanes.  The Larsen Ave bridges were built in 2002 and at the time said that the bridges wouldn't be replaced for the I-41 expansion.  They ended up being torn down and replaced.  All interchanges except Wis 172 were replaced along with 2 new freeway to freeway interchanges were really costly. 

In Appleton, the interchanges do not have to be reconstructed since they all have been replaced or modified in the last 20 years with the Wis 55 Interchange being reconstructed right now.  When bridges travel over the freeway, it really reduces costs since there's less lanes of traffic and less heavy truck traffic that uses those bridges.  With no major bridges or interchanges needing reconstruction, the costs should be significantly lower than the other two I-41 projects in Oshkosh and Green Bay. 

SSOWorld

Seems Lancaster, WI wielded their political clout to get WisDOT to replace recently replaced signs on US 151 in Grant County

SB at WIS 80/81 replaced Cuba City (left on a smaller sign like before the first replacement) with Lancaster (which was on the big signs before the first replacement).  The opposing sign still has Cuba City as the second city (Platteville being the first in both directions)

NB at US 61 put Lancaster on the last sign before the exit (the first still lacks it)

Truthfully - more for the 80/81 exit - Lancaster could have been the supplementary city on the small sign just as well - which meant that they (IMO) have demanded the spotlight.

I would hope the city funded the change, but they likely had not.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

DaBigE

Quote from: SSOWorld on August 23, 2018, 10:07:07 PM
Seems Lancaster, WI wielded their political clout to get WisDOT to replace recently replaced signs on US 151 in Grant County

SB at WIS 80/81 replaced Cuba City (left on a smaller sign like before the first replacement) with Lancaster (which was on the big signs before the first replacement).  The opposing sign still has Cuba City as the second city (Platteville being the first in both directions)

NB at US 61 put Lancaster on the last sign before the exit (the first still lacks it)

Truthfully - more for the 80/81 exit - Lancaster could have been the supplementary city on the small sign just as well - which meant that they (IMO) have demanded the spotlight.

I would hope the city funded the change, but they likely had not.

Impending wasted money on a sign replacement rant in 3...2...1...
:popcorn:
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

Roadguy

Quote from: mgk920 on August 22, 2018, 09:31:02 PM
Yes, it is election season and he is up for re-election in early November, but I do find this to be encouraging.  Today (Wednesday, 2018-08-22), Wisconsin governor Scott Walker directed WisDOT to begin formally studying I-41 from WI 15 (Northland Ave) in Appleton to Scheuring Rd in De Pere for upgrading from four lanes to six lanes, this to match the six lanes that the highway already has on either side of those points.

This is a badly needed upgrade as traffic on this highway is looking more and more like the LOS-E and F that is seen after Packer games during every weekday commuter rush.

http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Gov-Walker-calls-on-DOT-to-look-at-expanding-I-41-corridor-491462751.html

Mike

The volumes are higher than I expected between Kaukauna and DePere.  It will be interesting to see how this gets scoped out:

  • Will FHWA require them to build it to meet the 15 highest volume traffic days of the year similar to other major projects in the valley?
  • In the Fox Valley that is Packers games(family night, preseason, regular season, and playoff games), hunting opener, and summer holidays.  That is unique compared to most areas of the country where the top 15 not event driven but are average commuter days.
  • Will FHWA let them have exceptions to standards for items such as shoulder widths under existing bridges?
  • If not WIS 15 (Northland Ave), Capital Drive, Lynndale Ave, Wis 47 (Richmond St), Meade St, Ballard St, French Rd (To fit the systems interchange with 441), Holland Rd, Vandenbroek Rd, Freedom Rd, Buchanan St, Rose Hill Rd and County Rd J will have to be replaced.  All of the remaining bridges of 41 over the railroad/local roads will have to replaced no matter what.  If these gets replaced, its means at the interchanges as well adding the appropriate traffic capacity such as left turn lanes or roundabouts.
  • Will 441 get a true systems interchange with flyovers?
  • How will they set up the new highway to tie in the future proposed South Crossing south of DePere?  Although FHWA has stated Scheuring Rd is too close to Southbridge Road where the south crossing was supposed to go, this project may give WisDOT the opportunity to create/make room for collector-distributor lanes to get FHWA to give an okay for a new interchange.
  • Will the outside and inside ditches remain?  The inside ditches are ideal spot for a 3rd lane but depending on what they are required to meet for traffic, the stretch between Wis 15 and Kaukauna may trigger a 4th lane especially between interchanges (similar to what happened in in Janesville with 39/90).  The other sections of 41 recently completed removed the outside ditches and created storm collection systems that are very expensive compared to ditches to build.
  • What will happen to the many adjacent frontage roads and intersections along 41 at interchanges and over/underpasses especially between Kaukauna and DePere.  With previous 41 projects those intersections were modified with roundabouts and at interchanges frontage roads pulled back from the interchanges themselves.  This means getting into property purchases to reconfigure these roadways.
  • With all of that additional pavement, the additional storm water will have to be collected and treated somewhere so that it does not cause flooding downstream.  That means finding places to build ponds, which probably means purchasing isolated pockets of open land to place those ponds along the corridor.

A memory that most people don't remember is that the 41 project in Brown County which ended up being around $1 billion dollars was scoped out originally to be only around a couple hundred million when initially conceived.  Then through the traffic analysis,  expanded scope changes, and inflation it ballooned to its final cost.

Based on that, I would say this is well over a billion dollars today.  Add in inflation (5% a year), contingency, design costs, utility relocation costs, and construction administration costs for construction 10 years from now I would say this is over a $2 billion project.

SEWIGuy

#2193
I don't think it's going to be that expensive.  It's only 20 miles and only includes potentially one freeway to freeway interchange.  I doubt South Crossing will ever happen due to the value of the properties along the Fox River.  They will have to place it so far south towards Wrightstown that I think it would be meaningless. 

EDIT:  The entire I-39/90 expansion project, which is longer, much more complex and includes a Rock River crossing, is expected to cost about $1.2 B. 

peterj920

Just add 2 lanes in the median with a concrete barrier, expand the bridges north of Kaukauna and rebuild at the 4 locations between Wis 15 and County J.  The project can get done a lot faster and for a smaller price tag. 

However, I do think there should be a half interchange built at Wrightsrown Road.  Traffic heading to Appleton from Wrightstown doesn't want to drive up County U and backtrack.  All other local interchanges are fine.  Wouldn't mind seeing a rebuild of the Wis 441 interchange but it would be expensive and don't think it's that high of a priority compared to adding lanes. 

20160805

Quote from: peterj920 on August 25, 2018, 11:28:04 PM
Just add 2 lanes in the median with a concrete barrier, expand the bridges north of Kaukauna and rebuild at the 4 locations between Wis 15 and County J.  The project can get done a lot faster and for a smaller price tag. 

However, I do think there should be a half interchange built at Wrightsrown Road.  Traffic heading to Appleton from Wrightstown doesn't want to drive up County U and backtrack.  All other local interchanges are fine.  Wouldn't mind seeing a rebuild of the Wis 441 interchange but it would be expensive and don't think it's that high of a priority compared to adding lanes.
There's also a very direct way from Wrightstown to Appleton and vice versa already: WI 96.  ;-)
Left for 5 months Oct 2018-Mar 2019 due to arguing in the DST thread.
Tried coming back Mar 2019.
Left again Jul 2019 due to more arguing.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: 20160805 on August 26, 2018, 12:07:04 PM
Quote from: peterj920 on August 25, 2018, 11:28:04 PM
Just add 2 lanes in the median with a concrete barrier, expand the bridges north of Kaukauna and rebuild at the 4 locations between Wis 15 and County J.  The project can get done a lot faster and for a smaller price tag. 

However, I do think there should be a half interchange built at Wrightsrown Road.  Traffic heading to Appleton from Wrightstown doesn't want to drive up County U and backtrack.  All other local interchanges are fine.  Wouldn't mind seeing a rebuild of the Wis 441 interchange but it would be expensive and don't think it's that high of a priority compared to adding lanes.
There's also a very direct way from Wrightstown to Appleton and vice versa already: WI 96.  ;-)



You could probably route WI-96 up WI-55 from Kaukauna to I-41, have it duplex north, then exit at Wrightstown Road. 

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 27, 2018, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: 20160805 on August 26, 2018, 12:07:04 PM
Quote from: peterj920 on August 25, 2018, 11:28:04 PM
Just add 2 lanes in the median with a concrete barrier, expand the bridges north of Kaukauna and rebuild at the 4 locations between Wis 15 and County J.  The project can get done a lot faster and for a smaller price tag. 

However, I do think there should be a half interchange built at Wrightsrown Road.  Traffic heading to Appleton from Wrightstown doesn’t want to drive up County U and backtrack.  All other local interchanges are fine.  Wouldn’t mind seeing a rebuild of the Wis 441 interchange but it would be expensive and don’t think it’s that high of a priority compared to adding lanes.
There's also a very direct way from Wrightstown to Appleton and vice versa already: WI 96.  ;-)

You could probably route WI-96 up WI-55 from Kaukauna to I-41, have it duplex north, then exit at Wrightstown Road.

That part of WI 96 is the original routing of WI 15 (first version), what became US 41 later on in the 1920s.  It then continued on towards De Pere and Green Bay via modern-day Brown County 'D'.

Mike

invincor

There's been more awful flooding closing upwards of fifteen highways in the southeastern part of the state.  I heard the whole town of Coon Valley has been evacuated. 



mgk920

Quote from: invincor on August 28, 2018, 09:10:42 AM
There's been more awful flooding closing upwards of fifteen highways in the southeastern part of the state.  I heard the whole town of Coon Valley has been evacuated.

Last night there was a line of very heavy thunderstorms that went from just south of La Crosse eastward through the Dells area, Portage, Beaver Dam and Sheboygan - literally across the state - that moved laterally.  Coon Valley, WI is in that area.  We also got rained on here in Appleton from that line, but it was more of a normal seasonal storm for us.

Yes, it has been an unusually wet summer in Wisconsin.

Mike



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