DST (2018)

[kkt]

obsolete since electric lights became commonplace in homes and businesses.

ie pretty much it was brought in, for basically the reason it came in.

"if we have it light later in summer, we'll use less electricity lighting homes in the evening" was a key argument for DST.

Actually the key argument was folks would be healthier if they got some outdoor recreation time after work and in better shape in case they got drafted.  Another important argument especially in Britain was that with some sunlight after work they could garden and grow vegetables, and that would be less food that would have to make it past the U-boats during the wars.

[english si]

Realistically, there are plenty more people still asleep at 8:30AM (when the sun would rise in the winter in Atlanta with year-round DST) compared to those sleeping at 6:30PM (when the sun would set in the winter).  If maximizing the waking hours of daylight Americans receive in the winter is a metric for what's best, then year-round DST would absolutely be better than the system we currently have in place.

How many times do we have to say that this is a total nonsense argument as
1) many people need the sun to be up to wake naturally, and daylight when they are asleep is not wasted, but extremely useful.
2) at the other end of the day, we've always gone to bed some time after dark.

[english si]

Anyone who's stuck with a useless hour of daylight between 4:30 and 5:30 AM instead of a useful hour between 8:30 and 9:30 PM.

Both are pretty useless and superfluous hours to have daylight. It's really a matter of preference whether 0430-2030 or 0530-2130 is better. If it was 0430-1930 (ie 7.5 hours either side of 12) vs 0530-2030 then there's more of a case for evening than morning.

The best part of this discussion is that something people describe as intolerable situation is actually a best case scenario a few hundred miles away at the other edge of time zone or/and further north/south...

The worst part of this discussion is people not reading what was said, and making up the other side's point.

Having had light at both 4:30am and 9:30pm for a good few weeks now (and will have for a few weeks more), neither is intolerable, but neither is worth kicking up a fuss to obtain - both are superfluous.

I'm personally like kkt - I'd rather have light really late rather than really early. But at the same time, adding another two changes each year seems silly (I'd buy something like the original idea of 20 minutes change each fortnight through March-April and back every two weeks through September-October and have an 80 minute shift). For me, DST is mostly meaningless May-July as we don't need the extra hour of sunlight in the evening as we have quite a lot already this far north, and we still have 'too much' in the morning, and to double it (as kkt jokingly(?) suggests) would be completely pointless.

[kalvado]

Anyone who's stuck with a useless hour of daylight between 4:30 and 5:30 AM instead of a useful hour between 8:30 and 9:30 PM.

Both are pretty useless and superfluous hours to have daylight. It's really a matter of preference whether 0430-2030 or 0530-2130 is better. If it was 0430-1930 (ie 7.5 hours either side of 12) vs 0530-2030 then there's more of a case for evening than morning.

The best part of this discussion is that something people describe as intolerable situation is actually a best case scenario a few hundred miles away at the other edge of time zone or/and further north/south...

The worst part of this discussion is people not reading what was said, and making up the other side's point.

Having had light at both 4:30am and 9:30pm for a good few weeks now (and will have for a few weeks more), neither is intolerable, but neither is worth kicking up a fuss to obtain - both are superfluous.

I'm personally like kkt - I'd rather have light really late rather than really early. But at the same time, adding another two changes each year seems silly (I'd buy something like the original idea of 20 minutes change each fortnight through March-April and back every two weeks through September-October and have an 80 minute shift). For me, DST is mostly meaningless May-July as we don't need the extra hour of sunlight in the evening as we have quite a lot already this far north, and we still have 'too much' in the morning, and to double it (as kkt jokingly(?) suggests) would be completely pointless.

Well, no pointing fingers here. It is more about people quoting specific times as intolerable.. You personally, being pretty far north from most of people on this forum, have your own situation, different from that people in US face.
And yes, 1 hour granularity is an issue. People didn't think about 21st century issues when they introduced 24 hour day 3000 years ago.. 

[US 89]

So what is everyone's sunrise/sunset times for today?  In Detroit it rises at 5:55 AM and sets at 9:13 PM.   Pretty sweet.

For Salt Lake City today, sunrise is at 5:56am and sunset is at 9:03pm. If we didn't use DST, the sunrise would be at 4:56 and sunset would be at 8:02. A 4:56am sunrise time is much too early. But on December 21, sunrise is at 7:49am and sunset is at 5:03pm. If we went on year-round DST, then sunrise would not be until 8:49, which is much too late (and with the mountains in the east, the sun probably wouldn't actually come up until after 9am).

Which is why I prefer the current system. Sure, the start of DST should be pushed back to April, but DST in summer is better than either of the two alternatives.

[jeffandnicole]

What are people going to do if it's light out at 10pm?  Mow the lawn?  Take a walk?  I guess they could sit inside and do something, although if they're the type of people that like privacy, they're going to shut the blinds and shades because they don't want people looking inside taking their late evening walks, rendering whatever natural sunlight exists useless and will be turning on the lights anyway.

I'm not exactly seeing a lot of people out at 9pm. Those that are seem to be enjoying themselves, not bitching about how it's getting dark so early.  If anything, they enjoy the illumination of fire pits and other nighttime activities. 

[02 Park Ave]

If people enjoy (and make use of) sunshine in the evening so much, why don't they just get up at dawn and enjoy (and make use of) sunshine then too?

[vdeane]

Have all the lower 48 states shift time zones for the equivalent of year round DST.  It will be weird after growing up in the Pacific Time Zone to be living in the Mountain Time Zone, though there are mountains in Washington.

The Uniform Time Code Act of 1966 allows states to opt out of DST.  If the time-zones were simply shifted and DST was eliminated, states would no longer have that opt-out option (since DST would presumably no longer exist).  At that point if a state wanted to change times they would have to apply for a time-zone change which would have to be approved by the federal government.  Taking control away from the states and giving it to the federal government is not the right approach in this case, it rarely is.  That's why permanent DST is a better solution.

It used to be up to the states, and it was a clusterf*** with every state having different rules.  That's the reason the Uniform Time Code Act was passed in the first place.

I'm not exactly seeing a lot of people out at 9pm. Those that are seem to be enjoying themselves, not bitching about how it's getting dark so early.  If anything, they enjoy the illumination of fire pits and other nighttime activities. 

Agreed.  I don't get the obsession with "it must be daylight to do anything other than sit at home watching TV".  I for one personally enjoy how my Saturday evenings are dark in the winter!  It's fun to drive down the road seeing all the businesses illuminated by their lights.  Having it be light out at 7-8 pm in late January/February would be weird and feel too much like summer.

tradephoric also doesn't seem to get just how inconvenient it would be to have to spend half an hour every morning scraping the windshield off because the sun didn't come out early enough to start defrosting it.  My apartment does not have a garage.

It's Summer now (in the Northern hemisphere, Winter in the Southern one).

About sunset times, today the sunset in my area is as late as 9:41 PM CEST. As always, this is a result of Spain being in the 'wrong' time zone, with DST all-year round... and double DST in the Summer. In my 'forum time' this is 12:41 PM PDT (I should be using Mountain time right now, but since as of this post Big Rig Steve is in Arizona which doesn't observe DST, I use Pacific time to get the correct hour).

Who is "Big Rig Steve" and why are you so obsessed with him?

I'm more curious why he's so obsessed with his "forum time".

[english si]

Which was a good argument until LEDs came to the rescue.
Another reason I heard - and it makes a little bit more sense - DST reduces peak power consumption around switch dates, allowing power plants to be taken offline for maintenance between winter and AC season. Although graphs which came along with that statement didn't show too much of an effect.

I guess I was a bit too deadpan there. 'DST is obsolete now for the reason that DST exists' is a rather funny notion.

That said, the evidence of reduction in power consumption has been debunked - it's so tiny as to be within the margin of error, and comparing Indiana in the summer the last year of EST year-round vs the first summer with DST gave a tiny increase, rather than a tiny decrease.

Actually the key argument was folks would be healthier if they got some outdoor recreation time after work and in better shape in case they got drafted.  Another important argument especially in Britain was that with some sunlight after work they could garden and grow vegetables, and that would be less food that would have to make it past the U-boats during the wars.

It was explicitly (and simply) reduction of fuel consumption in the evenings (so more could be used to fight the war) that the reason for the UK to bring in DST. The first reading of the bill began "That, in view especially of the economy in fuel and its transport that would be effected by shortening the hours of artificial lighting, this House would welcome a measure for the advancement of clock time by one hour during the summer months of this year." and while there was the stuff about gardening and recreation that was about peacetime after the war from someone else (and mostly about them not being in the pub, but rather doing what Victorian paternalism viewed as appropriate behaviour for plebs - certainly not 'just in case they get drafted'*). The main objections to the bill were from the agricultural industry that it would play havoc with the harvesting of crops on farms (or be a completely pointless bit of hassle for workers in that industry - they change their clocks by an hour, and then move their working day to counter the clock change), so the food argument - which wasn't made - would have been refuted by this issue.

*The draft (Military Service Bill) was created and debated the same days as the Summer Time Bill, and it decreed that "every male British subject ... ordinarily resident in Great Britain ... [over 18 and under 41], shall, unless ... within the exceptions set out ... by this act ... be deemed as from the appointed date to have been duly enlisted" - the 'in case they got drafted' shows that you haven't researched this at all - there's no 'in case' about it - unless you were never going to be drafted, you were drafted.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

I thought Spain (and the rest of mainland Europe) normally used 24-hour time.

Yes, it's that. However I follow regional customs for time and date, and as such here I use 12-hour and month/day instead of my usual 24-hour and day/month. Using my default, sunset time here is 21:41 CEST.

Who is "Big Rig Steve" and why are you so obsessed with him?

You don't know Big Rig Steve? He's a trucker who broadcasts his travels around the country on YouTube. Besides that, I decided to set up my own "forum time" which is an exact offset from my real time zone (thus observing European DST). At first I set it to my time zone minus 6 hours (thus aligning with Eastern time most of the year), but at the start of this year I began watching Big Rig Steve, and decided to synchronize my "forum time" with him, so now the offset varies between -6 and -9 hours. I use this for quoting times here. However, the time the forum displays to me is mine with American DST.

[kkt]

Actually the key argument was folks would be healthier if they got some outdoor recreation time after work and in better shape in case they got drafted.  Another important argument especially in Britain was that with some sunlight after work they could garden and grow vegetables, and that would be less food that would have to make it past the U-boats during the wars.

It was explicitly (and simply) reduction of fuel consumption in the evenings (so more could be used to fight the war) that the reason for the UK to bring in DST. The first reading of the bill began "That, in view especially of the economy in fuel and its transport that would be effected by shortening the hours of artificial lighting, this House would welcome a measure for the advancement of clock time by one hour during the summer months of this year." and while there was the stuff about gardening and recreation that was about peacetime after the war from someone else (and mostly about them not being in the pub, but rather doing what Victorian paternalism viewed as appropriate behaviour for plebs - certainly not 'just in case they get drafted'*). The main objections to the bill were from the agricultural industry that it would play havoc with the harvesting of crops on farms (or be a completely pointless bit of hassle for workers in that industry - they change their clocks by an hour, and then move their working day to counter the clock change), so the food argument - which wasn't made - would have been refuted by this issue.

*The draft (Military Service Bill) was created and debated the same days as the Summer Time Bill, and it decreed that "every male British subject ... ordinarily resident in Great Britain ... [over 18 and under 41], shall, unless ... within the exceptions set out ... by this act ... be deemed as from the appointed date to have been duly enlisted" - the 'in case they got drafted' shows that you haven't researched this at all - there's no 'in case' about it - unless you were never going to be drafted, you were drafted.

Please note that Britain did not draft females, so there are a couple of "just in cases" involved:  just in case one is a reasonably healthy male not in an essential service.  Having more of the population get exercise helps with the "reasonably healthy" part.  Furthermore the part of my paragraph that was qualified by "especially in Britain" was the gardening part, not the draft part.

[english si]

Which is why I prefer the current system. Sure, the start of DST should be pushed back to April, but DST in summer is better than either of the two alternatives.

Last week of March is alright. The bigger problem is the fall change - should really be late September (maybe early October), but Europe does late October, and North American early November.

But yes, the status quo of changing the clocks seems to be the least-worst scenario.

What are people going to do if it's light out at 10pm?  Mow the lawn?

I'm not enjoying all the builders start work at around 8am (about 3 hours after dawn) the last few weeks. Thankfully I've already woken, but...

... the answer is 'nothing much'. Daylight at 10pm is just as 'wasted' as daylight at 4am. OK, there are more people outside in an evening than the small hours of the morning, but provided its warm enough, when darkness falls, if you are outside eating or drinking, you just stay out with some form of artificial light rather than go inside and whether that light goes on at 9pm or 10pm makes little difference. It's too late (unless isolated from others, especially young children) to be running around and making lots of noise (same problem as doing building works early in the morning) after about 9 anyway. And its not as if floodlights don't exist and all-weather (because weather is much more the issue than light for outdoor activity) pitches equipped with them are rather common.

Sunrise today here was 04:44, and the sun will set at 21:24. Last 'night' and tonight (and the few surrounding), it got as dark as astronomical twilight between 23:28 and 02:40, with civil twilight or full daylight from 03:56 to 22:12. The street lights turned off at 04:14, and will turn back on at 21:54 today, though civil twilight extends earlier and later than its legal approximation, and it is that that doesn't require artificial light to see.

[english si]

Furthermore the part of my paragraph that was qualified by "especially in Britain" was the gardening part, not the draft part.

OK, but they still were talking about gardening as they didn't want the working classes down the pub, rather than some plan to feed Britain during the war. And its still the case that agriculture was the main opposition to Summer Time in 1916 Britain - ie that Summer Time made growing enough food to not need to rely on stuff getting past the U-boats harder (due to pissing about with farm worker's hours).

[tradephoric]

That said, the evidence of reduction in power consumption has been debunked - it's so tiny as to be within the margin of error, and comparing Indiana in the summer the last year of EST year-round vs the first summer with DST gave a tiny increase, rather than a tiny decrease.

I agree that DST during the summer may not reduce energy consumption as reduced lighting is often offset by increased AC costs.  But that's not what we are considering.  The question now is would there be a reduction in power consumption if the nation went from standard time from November thru March to permanent DST (ie. winter DST).   We aren't worried if summer DST increases power consumption by 0.1% if it means 5AM-8PM daylight times in LA and NYC vs 4AM-7PM daylight times.  People like their long summer evenings to care that the policy might increase energy usage by 0.1%.  Besides the economic activity increases associated with summer DST likely far exceeds any increased power consumption.  Similar to how bad traffic in a city is a sign of healthy economy. 

You seem to be saying that there is no evidence of reduction in power consumption with summer DST, so that's why DST shouldn't be extended into the winter (even though reduced lighting cost in the winter may no longer be offset by increased AC cost... since people aren't running their AC units 24/7 in December).  I'm sure this point is lost on you because it's made by me...

[hbelkins]

Who is "Big Rig Steve" and why are you so obsessed with him?

He's a truck driver who live-streams his trips (on YouTube, I think). It was by watching one of his videos that it was discovered that the infamous "Craig County" sign had been replaced.

[20160805]

So what is everyone's sunrise/sunset times for today?  In Detroit it rises at 5:55 AM and sets at 9:13 PM.   Pretty sweet.

Keep Detroit on EST year round, thank you very much!  That's a very late sunrise for a post-bedtime sunset!

Around here sunrise and sunset are 05:10-20:41 today; I'm excited for 29 June when the sunsets start getting earlier again.

If people enjoy (and make use of) sunshine in the evening so much, why don't they just get up at dawn and enjoy (and make use of) sunshine then too?

YUUUP!

This is accurate (at least regarding my own opinion).  19:30 is plenty late enough of a summer sunset for me - plenty of light at both commutes, but not light so late I can't sleep at night.  In my ideal pipe-dream custom latitude scenario, my latest sunset would actually be at 18:43. (Latitude 20*N, clock time-solar time offset of 0)

Good grief - you'll hate living here. It's 22:09 now. The streetlights turned on just a few minutes ago. I can still see a bit of pink in the sky and much of it is light-blue grey, going to dark blue grey. It's dark, but not that dark (it has got noticeably darker the last 15 minutes or so). You could sit outside without artificial light and see other people's faces as you talked.

Old post, but yes, that is ridiculous (not to mention the UK is mostly rubbish in terms of summer heat potential, though that's a different subject for a different thread).  Let me sleep, thank you very much!

[CNGL-Leudimin]

He's a truck driver who live-streams his trips (on YouTube, I think). It was by watching one of his videos that it was discovered that the infamous "Craig County" sign had been replaced.

I discovered that almost live. He was going from Paris TX to Chicagoland, and he went on US 69 to Vinita OK. At one point I spotted he was going across Mayes County, and I quickly turned into the YouTube livestream expecting to spot the craIG county sign, only to find it was gone.

[jakeroot]

I thought Spain (and the rest of mainland Europe) normally used 24-hour time.

Yes, it's that. However I follow regional customs for time and date, and as such here I use 12-hour and month/day instead of my usual 24-hour and day/month. Using my default, sunset time here is 21:41 CEST.

Quite a few Americans use 24-hour, and will write day-month. It's military custom. Not standard for the US, but I wouldn't worry about using American customs if it's not normal for you. Just use whatever you normally would. I bet more than 90% of us understand 24 hour and day-month order.

[kalvado]

Quite a few Americans use 24-hour, and will write day-month. It's military custom. Not standard for the US, but I wouldn't worry about using American customs if it's not normal for you. Just use whatever you normally would. I bet more than 90% of us understand 24 hour and day-month order.

Unless it is something like 04.12.2018 - which leaves you with two possibilities...

[jakeroot]

Quite a few Americans use 24-hour, and will write day-month. It's military custom. Not standard for the US, but I wouldn't worry about using American customs if it's not normal for you. Just use whatever you normally would. I bet more than 90% of us understand 24 hour and day-month order.

Unless it is something like 04.12.2018 - which leaves you with two possibilities...

If it's all numbers, it definitely can be confusing. Military custom is for the month to be spelled out. Eg, 'December' or 'Dec' but not '12'.

[webny99]

Today is, for most of us, the longest day of the year. Technically, it should be the midpoint of DST*. However, DST lasts for 238 days, from March 11th to November 4th. This makes July 7th the true midpoint of DST, offset from the solstice by 16 days!


* And therefore, it should also be the midpoint of this discussion's off-season. Right? [/irony]

[02 Park Ave]

Isn't forum time listed in 24 hour format if you are a member?

[jakeroot]

Isn't forum time listed in 24 hour format if you are a member?

Not by default, but it can be changed.

[english si]

But that's not what we are considering.

Err, who's the 'we' here? Clearly you, but this conversation wasn't about the two year-round options debate. And other than 20160805 moaning that the sunsets are currently too late, and me pointing out that you are still are of the view that daylight before waking is wasted and you can't do anything outside after dark, it seems to only be you that has been discussing this in the last couple of days.

Bugo had said it was obsolete to change the clocks due to electric lights. I pointed out that that was why they brought in DST in the first place and then kkt and kalvado joined in the discussion about energy saving being the raison d'etre of DST. We were explicitly talking about the DST-in-summer that we have now.

There's more than one thing under discussion in the thread.

[kalvado]

(after consulting Google what raison d'etre is) interesting that those reasons seem to evolve over time...