DST (2018)

[kalvado]

None of the articles I've read mentioned speed as a factor, and speeding was not among the several charges listed.  Not sure where you are seeing 70mph.

I think I saw it somewhere, no more. My bad.

[NWI_Irish96]

https://www.wndu.com/content/news/NTSB-team-heading-to-scene-of--499126381.html
This accident happened yesterday on a state highway in Indiana, at 7:15 am.  If Indiana was on Central Time like it should be (or if it didn't observe DST or DST ended earlier), sunrise would have been at 7:13 instead of 8:13 and maybe this doesn't happen, but hey, the adults want to enjoy that hour of sunlight from 5:44 pm to 6:44 pm instead so that's how it is.

This can't necessarily be used to argue that we should forego DST altogether, but it can definitely be used to argue DST should end a few weeks sooner. It's dark enough in Upstate NY in late October... I can only imagine mornings 5+ hours west of me where sunrises are that much later. And it is very interesting that this happened within those few added weeks of DST.

This accident can equally be used to argue that we should forego pickup trucks altogether.  After all, it is definitely another unrelated factor

The difference in visibility between 58 minutes before dawn and 2 minutes after is most definitely related to vehicle accidents.

For this to be the factor, someone would need to argue that school bus flashing lights are not visible in the darkness. My poker face is not good enough for that

Coming around that curve, the kids would have come into view before the bus, and the kids would have been more visible in the light.

I assume there's no corn left standing in the fields of Indiana this time of year, which leads me to believe the school bus lights should have been plenty visible–curve or no curve.

This section of road is tree lined.  I've driven it 20+ times and it's a blind curve.  Not absolving the driver of blame for the accident, but the kids definitely would have been visible sooner if it had been an hour lighter.  Feel free to go drive the road and judge for yourself.

[kphoger]

Fair enough.

(Plus, there's this sign, posted just ½ mile in advance of the scene of the accident.)

[kalvado]

This section of road is tree lined.  I've driven it 20+ times and it's a blind curve.  Not absolving the driver of blame for the accident, but the kids definitely would have been visible sooner if it had been an hour lighter.  Feel free to go drive the road and judge for yourself.

As far as I can tell, pickup driver would see school bus lights before kids in their lane.
Assuming school bus is where it was during the accident, an oncoming driver does see oncoming lane first:

[hbelkins]

I, too, thought of this thread, and figured someone would use this as their argument against DST. Of course, when the time changes next week, we'll have children getting off the school bus in the dark -- or we will in a week or two as the solstice draws nearer -- but I guess that's somehow different.

And since Halloween has been mentioned in this thread -- many communities in Kentucky changed their trick-or-treat hours and their public events from tonight (the 31st) to last night because of the weather forecast. High wind and heavy rain is predicted for tonight. It will be interesting to see if those fears bear out.

[english si]

Morning rush has always been much more dense traffic-wise with everyone travelling in the same fairly narrow window, whereas school kids are typically the first part of the longer pm peak period. There's less traffic when kids return from school.

[webny99]

This accident happened yesterday on a state highway in Indiana, at 7:15 am.  If Indiana was on Central Time like it should be (or if it didn't observe DST or DST ended earlier), sunrise would have been at 7:13 instead of 8:13 and maybe this doesn't happen, but hey, the adults want to enjoy that hour of sunlight from 5:44 pm to 6:44 pm instead so that's how it is.

This can't necessarily be used to argue that we should forego DST altogether, but it can definitely be used to argue DST should end a few weeks sooner. It's dark enough in Upstate NY in late October... I can only imagine mornings 5+ hours west of me where sunrises are that much later. And it is very interesting that this happened within those few added weeks of DST.

This accident can equally be used to argue that we should forego pickup trucks altogether.  After all, it is definitely another unrelated factor.

Hardly, as whether or not pickup trucks should be on the market is a settled matter and not an important, current, issue. There is plenty of debate surrounding DST, however... so if one is looking to build an argument... 

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Frankly, this is absurd. People are blaming DST when they have no information on the incident. We do not know what the woman was doing or seeing yet at the time of the incident.

This is irresponsible on many fronts and a poor point of contention.

[webny99]

I, too, thought of this thread, and figured someone would use this as their argument against DST. Of course, when the time changes next week, we'll have children getting off the school bus in the dark -- or we will in a week or two as the solstice draws nearer -- but I guess that's somehow different.

I sense sarcasm, but it should be pointed out that standard afternoon bus runs never take place post-sunset, not even in the eastern extremities of the time zones (Chicago, Boston), much less the western extremities such as Indiana. So yeah, it is somehow different; hardly even comparable, actually. Also, this:

Morning rush has always been much more dense traffic-wise with everyone travelling in the same fairly narrow window, whereas school kids are typically the first part of the longer pm peak period. There's less traffic when kids return from school.

[Roadwarriors79]

I have wondered if anyone from Indiana (either living in the state or visiting frequently) is on this forum. Since the Eastern Time Zone section of Indiana was the most recent area of the US to adopt DST, I want to know their opinions on all of the state observing DST. Do they think all of the state (or most of the state) should have moved to Central Time back in 2006, or stuck with the old rules (Eastern Standard Time year round, no DST)? Or do they like the time zone as it is currently?

[webny99]

Frankly, this is absurd. People are blaming DST when they have no information on the incident. We do not know what the woman was doing or seeing yet at the time of the incident.
This is irresponsible on many fronts and a poor point of contention.

The point is that DST can be blamed without any knowledge of the specifics. It was dark, when it could have been light, and that's all there is to it.

And these are the few weeks of the year when daylight could easily be realigned by ending DST earlier. This would prevent buses from picking up kids in the dark, which is dangerous, again, regardless of the specifics of the case in question. This just proves it. Even if darkness wasn't the only factor, it was undeniably one of the factors.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Frankly, this is absurd. People are blaming DST when they have no information on the incident. We do not know what the woman was doing or seeing yet at the time of the incident.
This is irresponsible on many fronts and a poor point of contention.

The point is that DST can be blamed without any knowledge of the specifics. It was dark, when it could have been light, and that's all there is to it.

No. It cannot. You take extra caution driving on a road like that in the dark exactly because of factors like wildlife on the road and such.

[tdindy88]

I have wondered if anyone from Indiana (either living in the state or visiting frequently) is on this forum. Since the Eastern Time Zone section of Indiana was the most recent area of the US to adopt DST, I want to know their opinions on all of the state observing DST. Do they think all of the state (or most of the state) should have moved to Central Time back in 2006, or stuck with the old rules (Eastern Standard Time year round, no DST)? Or do they like the time zone as it is currently?

I remember it being weird going forward or back every time you crossed into Ohio as there was no time zone boundary there, and then other parts of the year you changed hours at Illinois. I can't speak for polls on the subject but my experience is that support for Central Time is substantial, but probably more in the western half than the eastern half. Southeast Indiana would likely want to stay on Eastern Time for Cincinnati and Louisville. Then there's Michigan above us, all of it on Eastern Time (except a few counties in the U.P.)

The question is which major city is more important: Chicago or New York? Geographically Central Time may be the best but until Michigan and Kentucky (the eastern half) opt to go to Central I think Indiana's position is the best it can be. I'm biased as I like Eastern time only because it seems to be the "privileged" time zone in this country. It's the timing of DST, and it's existence that's more of the problem.

But rest assure, many people do like Central time zone.

And as for the sad incident from Fulton County yesterday, our time zone discussion to me has little relevance if you ignore the flashing lights and stop sign from a school bus.

[webny99]

Frankly, this is absurd.

factors like wildlife on the road and such.

You got that right, and calling kids "wildlife" definitely takes the cake! 

[kalvado]

Frankly, this is absurd.

factors like wildlife on the road and such.

You got that right, and calling kids "wildlife" definitely takes the cake! 

Hitting wildlife is much more common than hitting kids. In NY, for example, it is 1 out of 70 drivers a year hits a deer, that translates into more than 50% probably throughout driving career.
And my first thought when I saw pictures of a car in school bus accident - damage was quite similar to what happened to our car when my wife met a deer on I-87. So it may pay off watching out for wildlife, it can be bad even if outcome of the accident is not newsworthy.

[NWI_Irish96]

I have wondered if anyone from Indiana (either living in the state or visiting frequently) is on this forum. Since the Eastern Time Zone section of Indiana was the most recent area of the US to adopt DST, I want to know their opinions on all of the state observing DST. Do they think all of the state (or most of the state) should have moved to Central Time back in 2006, or stuck with the old rules (Eastern Standard Time year round, no DST)? Or do they like the time zone as it is currently?

So it was very controversial back in 2006.  The pro-DST group was thinking nationally and how difficult it was to do business with the state essentially being in different time zones during different parts of the year.

The anti-DST group was concerned about exactly what we have now, which is very skewed sunrise-sunset times.  They were placated with the promise to look into moving from Eastern to Central, but in the bizarre system we have, the state government decides whether or not to observe DST but the Federal government decides your time zone, so that didn't get very far.

My personal preference would be that the entire country ditch DST and Indiana be on Eastern, but I think being one of only 2-3 states not observing DST causes too many problems, so given that I think the best option is for Indiana to be on Central with DST.

We will never know for sure if a change in time would have prevented this accident, but there is at least a chance that daylight could have.  In any case, and 8:13-6:44 daylight window is very unnatural.

[tradephoric]

https://www.wndu.com/content/news/NTSB-team-heading-to-scene-of--499126381.html

This accident happened yesterday on a state highway in Indiana, at 7:15 am.  If Indiana was on Central Time like it should be (or if it didn't observe DST or DST ended earlier), sunrise would have been at 7:13 instead of 8:13 and maybe this doesn't happen, but hey, the adults want to enjoy that hour of sunlight from 5:44 pm to 6:44 pm instead so that's how it is.

If the nation went to permanent DST, this would pretty much force Indiana to abandon DST and join Arizona in running standard-time year round.  Then this fatal bus crash in Indiana potentially doesn't happen right?  So obviously anyone who is against permanent DST in this country is promoting death and destruction.  Silly argument right?  While pedestrian safety is a concern to consider when discussing the merits of Daylight Saving Time, citing one tragic event that happened in Indiana and citing it as a reason to do away with DST is more emotional than rational.  But since you are the one that cited this specific case in Indiana, i can argue that going to permanent DST in this country could have prevented this fatal crash (since Indiana would very likely choose to run standard time year-round if DST was made permanent). 

[NWI_Irish96]

https://www.wndu.com/content/news/NTSB-team-heading-to-scene-of--499126381.html

This accident happened yesterday on a state highway in Indiana, at 7:15 am.  If Indiana was on Central Time like it should be (or if it didn't observe DST or DST ended earlier), sunrise would have been at 7:13 instead of 8:13 and maybe this doesn't happen, but hey, the adults want to enjoy that hour of sunlight from 5:44 pm to 6:44 pm instead so that's how it is.

If the nation went to permanent DST, this would pretty much force Indiana to abandon DST and join Arizona in running standard-time year round.  Then this fatal bus crash in Indiana potentially doesn't happen right?  So obviously anyone who is against permanent DST in this country is promoting death and destruction.  Silly argument right?  While pedestrian safety is a concern to consider when discussing the merits of Daylight Saving Time, citing one tragic event that happened in Indiana and citing it as a reason to do away with DST is more emotional than rational.  But since you are the one that cited this specific case in Indiana, i can argue that going to permanent DST in this country could have prevented this fatal crash (since Indiana would very likely choose to run standard time year-round if DST was made permanent). 

Year-round DST is essentially moving your time zone one to the east and not having DST.  So if the country instituted permanent DST and moved Indiana to Central Time to compensate then that's fine.  Staying in the time zone you're in and adding permanent DST on top creates more of the late sunrises referenced in this accident.

[kalvado]

Looking at the numbers... 75% of pedestrians accidents happen in the dark. BUt then, significant number of those are between 9 PM and 3 AM during summer months,
most seasonal effects are 6-9 PM in winter, with significantly smaller growth during morning hours. So year-round DST may be most pedestrian-friendly option.

[tradephoric]

Year-round DST is essentially moving your time zone one to the east and not having DST.  So if the country instituted permanent DST and moved Indiana to Central Time to compensate then that's fine.  Staying in the time zone you're in and adding permanent DST on top creates more of the late sunrises referenced in this accident.

Indiana being on Central Time observing DST year-round would lead to the same sunrise/sunset times as Indiana being on the Eastern Time observing standard time year-round.  States have always had the option to opt out of DST as part of the Uniform Time Act of 1966.  My point is if DST was made permanent in this country, Indiana would very likely opt out of DST and there would have been an hour earlier sunrise on that October morning when those 3 children were killed.

[hbelkins]

I, too, thought of this thread, and figured someone would use this as their argument against DST. Of course, when the time changes next week, we'll have children getting off the school bus in the dark -- or we will in a week or two as the solstice draws nearer -- but I guess that's somehow different.

I sense sarcasm, but it should be pointed out that standard afternoon bus runs never take place post-sunset, not even in the eastern extremities of the time zones (Chicago, Boston), much less the western extremities such as Indiana.

That may be true in more densely-populated areas with several schools, but in some large rural counties with consolidated schools, it's not the case. We have instances in rural Kentucky where some kids have to ride a bus for 90 minutes or longer, and if school lets out at 3 and they're not getting home until around 5, in some of those narrow valleys, it's going to be dark when they get off the bus.

...but until Michigan and Kentucky (the eastern half) opt to go to Central...

I pray to God that doesn't happen, and will fight it with everything I have in me if it's ever proposed for Kentucky. I'm not a fan of Central time, and am even less of a fan this time of the year when it starts getting darker earlier, and especially after DST ends. You're looking at it being dark around 4:30 or 5 in the easternmost CST counties.

[kphoger]

Frankly, this is absurd. People are blaming DST when they have no information on the incident. We do not know what the woman was doing or seeing yet at the time of the incident.
This is irresponsible on many fronts and a poor point of contention.

The point is that DST can be blamed without any knowledge of the specifics. It was dark, when it could have been light, and that's all there is to it.

No. It cannot. You take extra caution driving on a road like that in the dark exactly because of factors like wildlife on the road and such.

Not to mention that, at least in my experience, a big flashing beacon on top of a bus is much more noticeable after dark than it is while it's light outside.  Think about how you can tell an oncoming car is going to crest a hill when you're driving at night–because you can see the glow from the headlights even before you can see any part of the vehicle.

[webny99]

Frankly, this is absurd. People are blaming DST when they have no information on the incident. We do not know what the woman was doing or seeing yet at the time of the incident.
This is irresponsible on many fronts and a poor point of contention.

The point is that DST can be blamed without any knowledge of the specifics. It was dark, when it could have been light, and that's all there is to it.

No. It cannot. You take extra caution driving on a road like that in the dark exactly because of factors like wildlife on the road and such.

Not to mention that, at least in my experience, a big flashing beacon on top of a bus is much more noticeable after dark than it is while it's light outside.  Think about how you can tell an oncoming car is going to crest a hill when you're driving at night–because you can see the glow from the headlights even before you can see any part of the vehicle.

That's a good point, if we're talking only about the bus, but I thought we were talking about the kids.

On a tangentially-related note, I don't think buses in NY are allowed, on state highways, to pick up kids on the wrong side of the road. I've never seen it; they're always on the correct side so no street-crossing is required outside of residential neighborhoods and local streets. I would be interested to know if this is just fluke that I've never seen it, or if it's actually state law, perhaps others would confirm.

[kalvado]

That's a good point, if we're talking only about the bus, but I thought we were talking about the kids.

On a tangentially-related note, I don't think buses in NY are allowed, on state highways, to pick up kids on the wrong side of the road. I've never seen it; they're always on the correct side so no street-crossing is required outside of residential neighborhoods and local streets. I would be interested to know if this is just fluke that I've never seen it, or if it's actually state law, perhaps others would confirm.

I believe those are school district policies, not an actual law.

PS: suggested to mods splitting off school bus crash and related stuff into separate thread.

[NWI_Irish96]

Year-round DST is essentially moving your time zone one to the east and not having DST.  So if the country instituted permanent DST and moved Indiana to Central Time to compensate then that's fine.  Staying in the time zone you're in and adding permanent DST on top creates more of the late sunrises referenced in this accident.

Indiana being on Central Time observing DST year-round would lead to the same sunrise/sunset times as Indiana being on the Eastern Time observing standard time year-round.  States have always had the option to opt out of DST as part of the Uniform Time Act of 1966.  My point is if DST was made permanent in this country, Indiana would very likely opt out of DST and there would have been an hour earlier sunrise on that October morning when those 3 children were killed.

Permanent DST is better than what we have now, but I'm just pointing out that permanent DST is really the same as not having DST at all and just changing time zones.

Using Rochester, IN as an example. 

Current conditions, Eastern time zone with DST:
Friday 11/2: Sunrise at 8:16 (way too late), Sunset at 6:40
Monday 11/5: Sunrise at 7:20, Sunset at 5:37

If Indiana switched to Central time zone with DST:
Friday 11/2: Sunrise at 7:16, Sunset at 5:40 [fixed]
Monday 11/5: Sunrise at 6:20, Sunset at 4:37 (way too early)

With the current DST rules, you're either on Eastern time and get some way too late sunrises or you're on Central time and get some way too early sunsets.  Being on Eastern time with no DST (or Central time with year round DST) creates the best set of sunrises and sunsets throughout the year.

I think the problem with year-round DST is that many states won't shift their time zones accordingly, and Indiana on Eastern time with year-round DST would be a disaster.