Use of red arrows for protected turns

[signalman]

I'm gonna half-take-back what I had said about NJ traffic signals earlier. In my town, just yesterday, they installed a new traffic signal that was in the PA style on PennDotFan's old avatar: you know, the top being a light and then two side by side two thingies. And since I've been looking the past few days around NJ for 'em, I've seen that about 30% are that style and the others are all the "inline four" style.

I assume you're referring to the dog house type signal.  I'm shocked if you say one was recently installed locally.  NJ played with dog houses ever so briefly, but I can't recall a new one installed since the early 90s.  In some cases, they were removed and replaced with the inline 4's that NJ likes to use.  The 4th arrow section incorporates both the green and yellow arrows. 

Also, speaking of NJ, protected lefts almost exclusively use a red arrow.  The only example I can think of that has a red ball for the turn signal is right in my home town.  It's an  old 3M programable visibility signal and does use green and yellow arrows.  Its redundant partner uses a red arrow and is a standard signal (not 3M PV). 

[Ian]

I have a photo of some Jersey doghouses on US 9W in Fort Lee, NJ on my Picasa albums.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289509718191434610

Ian

[Alex]

Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.

There are a few intersections in Florida and Alabama where red arrows are used for right-hand turns, and drivers come to a stop and then proceed when its clear. When red arrows are used in Delaware for right-hand turns, they prohibit any movement until the next green phase. That should be the same everywhere correct?

[FLRoads]

Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.

There are a few intersections in Florida and Alabama where red arrows are used for right-hand turns, and drivers come to a stop and then proceed when its clear. When red arrows are used in Delaware for right-hand turns, they prohibit any movement until the next green phase. That should be the same everywhere correct?

I just looked this up in the Florida Driver's Official Handbook (2009) and you can turn right on a red arrow after coming to a full, complete stop. Sorry to burst your bubble, bro

[rawmustard]

Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.

In Michigan, the arrows simply have the same meaning as their corresponding circular indications; they just apply to traffic moving in that direction. See paragraph (1) here.

[74/171FAN]

Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.

There are a few intersections in Florida and Alabama where red arrows are used for right-hand turns, and drivers come to a stop and then proceed when its clear. When red arrows are used in Delaware for right-hand turns, they prohibit any movement until the next green phase. That should be the same everywhere correct?

In VA its not specified in the code but Froggie and I debated about this in another thread after Petersburg handed out tickets to those that made a right turn on a red from Wagner Rd onto US 301 NB.  Since then the red arrow has been replaced with a red ball with a "NO TURN ON RED" sign added.

[Alex]

Well two instances in Delaware where right red arrows are, both prohibiting right-hand turns during the red phase:

In Newark, apparently a city councilman had issues with traffic movements in his area, and mandated that a red arrow be placed for eastbound Delaware 273 at Casho Mill Road (at least that's what a friend mentioned to me many years ago).

There is another on Harvey Road eastbound at U.S. 13 Business (Philadelphia Pike) as well. It's red arrow only illuminates at certain times.

If the arrow varies from state to state, how are drivers supposed to know whether or not it is legal to turn? Sit there and hope that someone does not blow their horn at you while waiting for the green phase, or just chance it and go?

[froggie]

It was in the Highway Oddities thread a few weeks ago.

Basically, it depends on the state.  And unless someone specifically looks up a given state's laws on the subject, they're not going to know whether or not it's legal.

There are 9 states (including DC and PR) that specifically prohibit right turn on red arrow.  On the flip side, there are 9 other states that specifically allow it.  The other states apparently don't have language regarding red arrows, although since you mention Delaware, I looked them up and while they don't mention red right arrows outright, the language suggests no-turn-on-red on them.

[Bryant5493]

On the right turn against a red arrow subject:

I asked an associate of mine, who's a Georgia police officer, and he said that it's legal to turn right against a red right turn arrow. There's one on Convention Center Concourse North @ S.R. 6 East (Atlanta Airport/I-85). I contacted GDOT and was told the same thing.

There needs to be a unified law for this, not being varied from state-to-state like it is now.


Be well,

Bryant

[Bryant5493]

^^ Yeah, a unified standard would be prudent.

I read info on the right turn on red arrow from that site awhile back, which made me inquire to my cop associate and GDOT about this issue. So, I don't know. It's just confusing.


Be well,

Bryant

[signalman]

And the simplest solution, IMO:  if the right turn isn't allowed on red, then post a "No Turn On Red" sign, even if it's a red arrow.

I agree completely with that.  With the use of a red arrow as well as a sign there is no excuse for misinterpereting its meaning.  However, I personally would interperet a red right arrow as no turn on red without signage.  But I do acknowledge the fact that there are a lot of brain dead and licensed (apparently) people on the road.

[roadfro]

Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.

It is indeed written in the MUTCD in the standard of Section 4D.04

C. Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:

      2. Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line (...) and shall remain stopped until a signal indication permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is shown.

      When an R10-17a sign (see Section 2B.45) (a "Right on Red Arrow After Stop" sign) is in place permitting a turn on a RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, after stopping. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.

So the national standard clearly indicates no turn on a red arrow, unless a sign permits it.  That said, some states (through their own state MUTCD and/or state laws) have regulations which are not compliant with this standard.

In my opinion, the implementation of a right-facing red arrow should have a valid reason (protected adjacent pedestrian phase, unsafe sight distance, protected right turn phase, etc.).  If the right turn can be made safely on red, a circular red indication should be used instead.  This is in the interest of national uniformity, and better protects the meaning of the red arrow. </small soapbox>

[deathtopumpkins]

So is Virginia one of those 18 states that have legislation on it?