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Which malls should be demolished?

Started by tolbs17, August 15, 2019, 08:23:12 PM

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dvferyance

Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 31, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
Kennedy Mall in Dubuque, IA. It's probably at only 50% capacity. There is nothing left in the food court. Two of the original 3 anchors, Sears, and Younkers, are closed, and JC Penney is on life support. The former Sears is still empty, and the former Younkers has been turned into a Vertical Jump trampoline bouncy house arcade type place. Half the people in the mall at ay one time seem to just be mall walkers, and you better not get in their way! Gets more depressing each time we're in there and we see another store has closed.
I was just there last June I didn't think it was so bad. Sure there are some vacant stores but I would not call it half empty.


inkyatari

Northfield Square, Bradley, IL.

30% occupancy, nothing in the food court, two of the 4  anchors are gone, leaving Penney's as the only anchor.(Carson's was weird. When the mall opened, it had JC Penney, Carson's, Sears and Venture as anchors.  When Venture closed, Carson's took over that space and had TWO anchors at the location.)

The only thing left open is the Cinemark theaters. I saw Dante's Peak there for free the day the theaters opened.
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

kevinb1994

I don't know if something similar to what has happened at other dead Jacksonville malls will save it, so I will recommend the Regency Square Mall in the Regency area. Although not technically a mall, the festival marketplace downtown aka the Jacksonville Landing is going to be demolished as long as plans are followed upon, which they probably will be AFAIK.

PHLBOS

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished.  Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept.  Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me.  I would have to do some research to find this out.
One attraction of the town center or open air concept is that the tenants are not contributing to the heating/cooling costs of such.  In contrast, tenants in a mall contribute to the heating/cooling costs of the enclosed spaces/foyers as well as their own leased spaces.  The latter became a serious cost issue a decade ago when heating/cooling costs were at all-time highs.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMAlso, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores.  While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops.  We will have to see.
IMHO, the whole proliferation of on-line shopping contributing to the overall decline/downfall of brick-and-mortar facilities, regardless of whether such is a mall, shopping center or stand-alone facility, notion is widely overblown/exaggerated.  Yes, on-line shopping is now a force to be reckoned with; however, such has not stopped nor prevented new shopping plazas/strip malls from being built.  Additionally, just because one shops on-line doesn't mean one does such 100% of the time.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhat could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area.  The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place.  This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
No offense but such activity, especially if it's been going on since the 1990s, has more to do with/say about the area than anything else.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMThere are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping.
Somewhat related to the demographics issue is that some malls, depending on location and/or accessibility, can become hangouts for gangs or gang activity.  That alone IMHO can discourage others from shopping there. 

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhen malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time.  It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown".  But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change.  In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Personally, related heating/cooling costs, hang-out and/or gang activity, bad management/high leases and/or stores going out of business (even if such offers on-line shopping as an option) are more to blame for dead/dying malls more than anything else.  As stated before, there are still plenty of malls that are thriving & actually growing; the one in King of Prussia, PA being an example.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

SectorZ

Quote from: ftballfan on August 20, 2019, 06:35:04 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 20, 2019, 12:28:12 AM
I'm surprised the BWW  chose to open in the mall rather than down the street in MA.  NH has a restaurant and hotel tax of 9%, while MA has the general sales tax rate of 6.25%.  It explains why all the retail establishments around there are on the NH side of the border (no sales tax), while most of the restaurants are in MA.

NH might have less restrictive blue laws than MA

The meals tax rate in Tyngsboro MA is 7%. Mass towns can add their own 0.75% local option, and at this point almost all have. That difference is $1 on $50 of a bill. I've also seen a large share of Massachusetts restaurants on their side of the border die and at a rate at or higher than the NH side.

But hey, the BWW has a patio outside the restaurant inside the mall, which is bizarre and useless as it sounds.

SectorZ

The Greendale Mall in Worcester needs to come down. I worked very close to it for over a decade and saw it go to hell in that time. It has a couple anchors (but they're Best Buy and Homegoods), is superseded by the nearby Solomon Pond Mall, and has an over 70% vacancy rate. It's actually a nice structure, but it's never coming back from the dead.

Its Bath & Body Works and GNC are still alive. They are the 2 violin players still playing when a mall has hit the proverbial iceberg.

amroad17

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 04, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished.  Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept.  Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me.  I would have to do some research to find this out.
One attraction of the town center or open air concept is that the tenants are not contributing to the heating/cooling costs of such.  In contrast, tenants in a mall contribute to the heating/cooling costs of the enclosed spaces/foyers as well as their own leased spaces.  The latter became a serious cost issue a decade ago when heating/cooling costs were at all-time highs.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMAlso, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores.  While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops.  We will have to see.
IMHO, the whole proliferation of on-line shopping contributing to the overall decline/downfall of brick-and-mortar facilities, regardless of whether such is a mall, shopping center or stand-alone facility, notion is widely overblown/exaggerated.  Yes, on-line shopping is now a force to be reckoned with; however, such has not stopped nor prevented new shopping plazas/strip malls from being built.  Additionally, just because one shops on-line doesn't mean one does such 100% of the time.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhat could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area.  The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place.  This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
No offense but such activity, especially if it's been going on since the 1990s, has more to do with/say about the area than anything else.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMThere are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping.
Somewhat related to the demographics issue is that some malls, depending on location and/or accessibility, can become hangouts for gangs or gang activity.  That alone IMHO can discourage others from shopping there. 

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhen malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time.  It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown".  But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change.  In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Personally, related heating/cooling costs, hang-out and/or gang activity, bad management/high leases and/or stores going out of business (even if such offers on-line shopping as an option) are more to blame for dead/dying malls more than anything else.  As stated before, there are still plenty of malls that are thriving & actually growing; the one in King of Prussia, PA being an example.
There is a lot of truth about what was said about the younger people of today not "hanging out at the mall".  Even when my kids, now around 30, were in their teens and early 20's rarely said they were going to the mall.

The demographics I mentioned above were a silent allusion to gang and/or criminal activity in addition to population shifts.  Forest Fair Mall/Cincinnati Mills/or whatever it is called now had issues such as this.

I am aware of people not shopping online 100% of the time, however, if there wasn't any online shopping available, more people would be out shopping and the possibility would exist that some of the malls that are currently dying could still be doing well.  Of course, there was a precursor to online shopping--it was called catalogs.

As far as "say" in an area, politics more than likely has something to do with that.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

PHLBOS

Quote from: amroad17 on September 04, 2019, 09:36:01 PMOf course, there was a precursor to online shopping--it was called catalogs.
Bingo! Somebody finally stated such.  In the days before on-line shopping, Amazon, etc.; many ordered via catalogs... especially for those that resided too far from the nearest store.  A similar reason could be why some order on-line; there isn't a store nearby. 

For many years if not decades, Sears was one of if not the biggest retailer in catalog sales.  One would've thought they would've championed on-line retailing; but shockingly, Sears largely either dismissed such or didn't react soon enough early on... ultimately at their own peril IMHO.

Long story short; the catalog sales took the biggest hit in terms of the proliferation of on-line sales.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

RoadWarrior56

Gwinnett Place Mall near Duluth, GA needs to be demolished.  It was the premiere shopping destination in Gwinnett County for nearly two decades, but it has fallen on very hard times since then, with few stores left open. The location is great and the land is valuable.  The entire mall site needs to be reimagined and repurposed.

tolbs17


roadman65

In Lakeland, Florida the Lakeland Village is an outdoor set up, with roads that features parallel parking in front of stores with parking lots outside the plaza that resembles an old style downtown area with street and rear parking lots.

BTW nearby Lakeland Square Mall has died with only few stores and loss of three anchor tenants.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

renegade

Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

tolbs17


roadman65

Sears screwed themselves when the internet came along. They should have updated with the demands of the general public and redid their catalog into on line shopping. They snoozed and lost.

Then letting Kmart buy them out was a nail in their coffin.  A company that filed for bankruptcy just prior to the sale. Sears should have been able to buy Kmart out if they kept it steady. Kmart might still been alive today instead of Kmart killing them.

The Freehold Raceway Mall in Freehold, NJ should be plowed as it never should have been built in the first place. A lady from Freehold at the time of its built, even agreed with me that that region needed that particular mall as we all need a sharp pain in our side.  At the time it was constructed in the late eighties the area had more than enough area shopping in nearby Manalapan and along Route 9 from Lakewood to Old Bridge.

Plus it ruined Route 537 as its now suburban from Route 9 to the Freehold Hospital (or whatever name it goes by now) with other retail development following suit along the once rural two lane road.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

I-39

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 05, 2019, 11:40:35 AM
For many years if not decades, Sears was one of if not the biggest retailer in catalog sales.  One would've thought they would've championed on-line retailing; but shockingly, Sears largely either dismissed such or didn't react soon enough early on... ultimately at their own peril IMHO.

It's much more complicated than that. Sears did see the internet coming, as they invested in the primitive web service Prodigy, but they were too focused on the short term and it seems they couldn't find a coherent strategy after Walmart overtook them as the biggest retailer in 1990. Then they closed the catalog in 1993 which was a short sighted move, only to begin building sears.com in 1997. They never invested enough $$ into sears.com

The biggest blunder of Sears, IMO, was neglecting its retail business in the 70s and 80s at a time when a massive shift was occurring away from the traditional department store towards the discount store (first the likes of Kmart and then later Walmart). Sears failed to embrace computer technology to update their cost/accounting control systems and make their supply chain more efficient. As such, they consistently trailed competitors on cost efficiency from that point on. It all went downhill from there.......

thenetwork

^^^  EXACTLY!!!

Some of the Walmarts and Targets in my region have either remodeled their store interiors and/or exteriors multiple times over the last 20 years, while many of the Sears and Kmart stores had the same old tired facades and interiors ‐‐ some dating back to the 70s or even earlier!!!

bing101

Quote from: amroad17 on September 04, 2019, 09:36:01 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 04, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Eventually, all but maybe 10-15% of the malls we have now will be demolished.  Many consumers like the "town center", open air concept.  Plus, I believe leases aren't as high at a town center verses an enclosed mall, however, don't quote me.  I would have to do some research to find this out.
One attraction of the town center or open air concept is that the tenants are not contributing to the heating/cooling costs of such.  In contrast, tenants in a mall contribute to the heating/cooling costs of the enclosed spaces/foyers as well as their own leased spaces.  The latter became a serious cost issue a decade ago when heating/cooling costs were at all-time highs.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMAlso, with the proliferation of online shopping, both enclosed mall owners and town center owners will be facing more competition and will be dealing with less traffic in their stores.  While quickly reading some articles on leases and concepts, I read one particular article on how malls are "evolving" by having different types of businesses in them instead of just shops.  We will have to see.
IMHO, the whole proliferation of on-line shopping contributing to the overall decline/downfall of brick-and-mortar facilities, regardless of whether such is a mall, shopping center or stand-alone facility, notion is widely overblown/exaggerated.  Yes, on-line shopping is now a force to be reckoned with; however, such has not stopped nor prevented new shopping plazas/strip malls from being built.  Additionally, just because one shops on-line doesn't mean one does such 100% of the time.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhat could happen is that there could be one dominant "mall" in an area (see Syracuse, NY) that ends up closing 2-5 other malls in the area.  The other malls are either going to just close (and sit there for Dead Mall fans to go through and document) then be demolished with either a town center or business park put up in its place.  This has been happening regularly since the 1990's.
No offense but such activity, especially if it's been going on since the 1990s, has more to do with/say about the area than anything else.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMThere are so many different variables that can end a mall's run: poor management, high leases, a change in demographics in the area, anchor stores going bankrupt (everybody's favorite whipping business--Montgomery Ward included here; the "death knell" of a mall), a change in shopping tastes, and online shopping.
Somewhat related to the demographics issue is that some malls, depending on location and/or accessibility, can become hangouts for gangs or gang activity.  That alone IMHO can discourage others from shopping there. 

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2019, 10:41:04 PMWhen malls were first built in the 1960's and 1970's, it fit a niche at that time.  It was a way for suburban people to go shopping without having to go "downtown".  But, just like a majority of things in life, people's tastes, people's income, and the technology available for people change.  In this case, it has led to dying and dead malls.
Personally, related heating/cooling costs, hang-out and/or gang activity, bad management/high leases and/or stores going out of business (even if such offers on-line shopping as an option) are more to blame for dead/dying malls more than anything else.  As stated before, there are still plenty of malls that are thriving & actually growing; the one in King of Prussia, PA being an example.
There is a lot of truth about what was said about the younger people of today not "hanging out at the mall".  Even when my kids, now around 30, were in their teens and early 20's rarely said they were going to the mall.

The demographics I mentioned above were a silent allusion to gang and/or criminal activity in addition to population shifts.  Forest Fair Mall/Cincinnati Mills/or whatever it is called now had issues such as this.

I am aware of people not shopping online 100% of the time, however, if there wasn't any online shopping available, more people would be out shopping and the possibility would exist that some of the malls that are currently dying could still be doing well.  Of course, there was a precursor to online shopping--it was called catalogs.

As far as "say" in an area, politics more than likely has something to do with that.


The last demographics to see a packed mall from its heyday in the USA would have to be from the ages of 35-45 (as of 2021).  However in my area starting in the late 1990's to the start of 2020 there was a move to reverse the trend from building malls in suburban areas to gentrifying downtowns into  destination centers. San Francisco was one of them back in the late 1990's when Oracle Park was under construction to revitalize an industrial wasteland.


Sacramento in 2014-2017 when they demolished the  Downtown Plaza (Downtown Sacramento Mall) for the Golden 1 Arena and some downtown offices in the area.



Scott5114

I dunno if I'm just within the margin of error on your estimate, or if malls hung on here unusually late, but I did the whole teenager-go-to-the-mall-with-friends thing in high school, and I graduated in 2007. Now granted, we didn't do the whole 1980s thing where we spent multiple hours there dicking around, but I went on more than a few shopping trips with a girl I liked.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

formulanone

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 05, 2021, 11:04:40 PM
I dunno if I'm just within the margin of error on your estimate, or if malls hung on here unusually late, but I did the whole teenager-go-to-the-mall-with-friends thing in high school, and I graduated in 2007. Now granted, we didn't do the whole 1980s thing where we spent multiple hours there dicking around, but I went on more than a few shopping trips with a girl I liked.

On the other hand, having grown up in the Golden Age of the Shopping Mall, my friends and I were never the types to "hang out in a mall", unless somebody actually needed to buy something in one of the stores. Maybe during Christmas time, but I don't remember too many idle moments where we'd just wait around for stuff to happen in one of the Simon Palaces.

I understand a lot of this has to do with how many of your friends actually worked in a mall, and I've realized that activity varied on the height of that percentage...most of us worked in other areas of retail, even though our town had at least one bustling indoor shopping mall (and another on the way out...ironically becoming space for a charter school and county library). 

snowc

Quote from: formulanone on November 06, 2021, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 05, 2021, 11:04:40 PM
I dunno if I'm just within the margin of error on your estimate, or if malls hung on here unusually late, but I did the whole teenager-go-to-the-mall-with-friends thing in high school, and I graduated in 2007. Now granted, we didn't do the whole 1980s thing where we spent multiple hours there dicking around, but I went on more than a few shopping trips with a girl I liked.

On the other hand, having grown up in the Golden Age of the Shopping Mall, my friends and I were never the types to "hang out in a mall", unless somebody actually needed to buy something in one of the stores. Maybe during Christmas time, but I don't remember too many idle moments where we'd just wait around for stuff to happen in one of the Simon Palaces.

I understand a lot of this has to do with how many of your friends actually worked in a mall, and I've realized that activity varied on the height of that percentage...most of us worked in other areas of retail, even though our town had at least one bustling indoor shopping mall (and another on the way out...ironically becoming space for a charter school and county library).
Anybody heard of East Pointe Mall? Next to the Kory Convention Center and is bustling.
I saw people with crop tops on and they were next to guys my age. No masks, -6ft apart.  :banghead:

epzik8

Harford Mall in Bel Air, Maryland should have been torn down a long time ago. If you live in Harford County, your best bets are White Marsh, Towson or Hunt Valley.
From the land of red, white, yellow and black.
____________________________

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tolbs17

Looks like redevelopment of the mall could be soon on the rails. A 30 story tower was considered to be built on the former Sears building. But I feel like this would be a bigger game changer. I think they should fix those flooding risks if the wish to redevelop the mall.  And yes it's paywalled

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2022/02/14/raleighs-crabtree-valley-mall-goes-up-for-sale.html

tolbs17


tolbs17

Since the Cary Towne Center is demolished, should we rename Cary Towne Blvd to like Cary Parkway or something that is not related to the mall?



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