I-66 HO/T Lanes

[froggie]

The difference between 95 and 66 in this case is as follows:  95 isn't in the "favored quarter"...

[cpzilliacus]

And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

The difference between 95 and 66 in this case is as follows:  95 isn't in the "favored quarter"...

Agreed.

[jeffandnicole]

The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

You are correct on both fronts, but I still find the bleating disingenuous. "We relied on this when we moved here." So did people along I-95. They lost their free pass. I-66 people's "reliance" on the exemption is no different.

No doubt so did people when they moved into a once rural area that become suburban then almost urban with traffic.

Best complaints are when a new housing development opens up, and some people choose a house on the edge of the development where there's trees behind them.  Then that land is sold for a housing development, and the people complain they chose their house based on the trees there. 

Sorry...but let's go back to the people that have lived in the area for decades and didn't get a say on your development going up.  I'm not crying that you had those lovely trees for 3 months before that land got sold as well.

[cpzilliacus]

I'll end my thoughts on the topic (for now) with this anecdote.

When the 495 HOT lanes were being built, someone close to me lives nearby was going on about Lexus Lanes, how she'd never use them, etc etc, wouldn't fix anything.

After the lanes opened, the topic of it came up, she would sheepishly admit how she liked the lanes and liked the guaranteed travel time. I figure many out that way (again, among the wealthiest counties in the US) will quickly come to that view as well. I expect many to continue to drive solo, because the vibe I always got from people in the western VA suburbs is that they're not the type to carpool/use public transit. Revenue from I-66 HOT will do well.

Similar story in Montgomery County, Maryland. 

The hyperactive and hyperinvolved civic and environmentalist groups in the county confidently predicted that "nobody will use the InterCounty Connector" [Md. 200] (because they were opposed to the construction of the new road and because they claimed to be opposed to highway tolls generally).

Now that it has been open for a few years, the tolls are covering operating and  maintenance costs and paying down the debt that was issued by MdTA to build it, and it is averaging (over the course of an entire year) between 35,000 and 40,000 vehicles per day, between the interchanges from I-370 to I-95 (the far eastern end between I-95 and U.S. 1 has much less traffic).

[froggie]

And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

Wasn't referring specifically to HOV lanes here.  Using the Supervisor's words literally...their ability to "use 66" (regardless of whether HOV or not) is what drove massive hordes of population to Loudoun and western Fairfax, and is the "root cause" of 66 congestion.

[1995hoo]

I'll end my thoughts on the topic (for now) with this anecdote.

When the 495 HOT lanes were being built, someone close to me lives nearby was going on about Lexus Lanes, how she'd never use them, etc etc, wouldn't fix anything.

After the lanes opened, the topic of it came up, she would sheepishly admit how she liked the lanes and liked the guaranteed travel time. I figure many out that way (again, among the wealthiest counties in the US) will quickly come to that view as well. I expect many to continue to drive solo, because the vibe I always got from people in the western VA suburbs is that they're not the type to carpool/use public transit. Revenue from I-66 HOT will do well.

Reminds me of the story from the 1970s about how one of the leaders of New York's fight to keep Concorde out of JFK due to noise issues realized she would be late for a protest, so she flew Concorde to Washington to get back on time.

[cpzilliacus]

And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

Wasn't referring specifically to HOV lanes here.  Using the Supervisor's words literally...their ability to "use 66" (regardless of whether HOV or not) is what drove massive hordes of population to Loudoun and western Fairfax, and is the "root cause" of 66 congestion.

Though a a pretty fair number of Loudoun County residents are not going to Arlington County or the District of Columbia.

I get the impression that plenty of them work along the Va. 267 corridor, or the Va. 28 corridor, or at the CIA complex on Va. 123 - often in jobs related to the "intelligence communty" which pay very well and allow them to purchase McMansions in Loudoun County if they cannot afford a McMansion in Fairfax County.

There is also a fair amount of employment related to aviation in Loudoun County, most of which does not need I-66.  Obviously at Dulles Airport, but also at the Federal Aviation Administration's Washington Air Route Traffic Control Center on Va. 7 (Harry Byrd Highway) just east of the Leesburg Bypass.

[AlexandriaVA]

And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

Wasn't referring specifically to HOV lanes here.  Using the Supervisor's words literally...their ability to "use 66" (regardless of whether HOV or not) is what drove massive hordes of population to Loudoun and western Fairfax, and is the "root cause" of 66 congestion.

Though a a pretty fair number of Loudoun County residents are not going to Arlington County or the District of Columbia.

I get the impression that plenty of them work along the Va. 267 corridor, or the Va. 28 corridor, or at the CIA complex on Va. 123 - often in jobs related to the "intelligence communty" which pay very well and allow them to purchase McMansions in Loudoun County if they cannot afford a McMansion in Fairfax County.

A GS-15 in intelligence makes as much as a GS-15 at the Department of Education. So I wouldn't chalk up affluence to the specific federal agency for which they work.

[cpzilliacus]

Reminds me of the story from the 1970s about how one of the leaders of New York's fight to keep Concorde out of JFK due to noise issues realized she would be late for a protest, so she flew Concorde to Washington to get back on time.

That's a pretty good one.  Reminds me of the many anti-highway activists (in Montgomery County especially, but also other places) that have shown up at anti-highway demonstrations in their private automobiles because they did not have time to get there by transit or on a bike.

[cpzilliacus]

A GS-15 in intelligence makes as much as a GS-15 at the Department of Education. So I wouldn't chalk up affluence to the specific federal agency for which they work.

That was formerly the case, but most government employees in the intelligence agencies are paid on a different scale that generally pays the intelligence workers more money.

But I was thinking about the "cleared professionals" that work for private-sector contractors for agencies like the CIA, NSA and others.  That's where the really big money is paid.

[AlexandriaVA]

A GS-15 in intelligence makes as much as a GS-15 at the Department of Education. So I wouldn't chalk up affluence to the specific federal agency for which they work.

That was formerly the case, but most government employees in the intelligence agencies are paid on a different scale that generally pays the intelligence workers more money.

But I was thinking about the "cleared professionals" that work for private-sector contractors for agencies like the CIA, NSA and others.  That's where the really big money is paid.

Yes and no. The lawyers make out better than civil servants but they're not living in Loudoun; they're living in McLean and Vienna. Same with defense contractor executives. The very wealthy of Loudoun aren't living in McMansions, they're living on estates. The upeer-middle-class of Loudoun want the big house but need the cheap land hence they move out.

The civil servants I know who live in Loudoun would make enough to also live in Arlington or Alexandria, but in a significantly smaller house or a townhouse. It's the trade-off they've chosen to make. Incidently, more often than not they're transplants from elsewhere in the country, and I think they have very little desire to raise a family in a smaller house or townhouse.

[AlexandriaVA]

Reminds me of the story from the 1970s about how one of the leaders of New York's fight to keep Concorde out of JFK due to noise issues realized she would be late for a protest, so she flew Concorde to Washington to get back on time.

That's a pretty good one.  Reminds me of the many anti-highway activists (in Montgomery County especially, but also other places) that have shown up at anti-highway demonstrations in their private automobiles because they did not have time to get there by transit or on a bike.

Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

[cpzilliacus]

Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

I disagree.  The activists in question certainly are not anti-car or anti-highway as far as their own lives and lifestyles are concerned.

But they are very anti-car and anti-highway when it comes to unspecified "other people" using the transportation system.

[AlexandriaVA]

I know. I was just pointing out that it's not hypocritical to drive to an anti-highway rally.

It would be hypocritical to take a higway to an anti-highway rally, or to drive to an anti-automobile rally.

But you presented somebody driving (didn't characterize what road) to an anti-highway rally. Suppose they took all local roads?

[The Ghostbuster]

It's do as I say, not as I do. Right, cpzilliacus?

[cpzilliacus]

It's do as I say, not as I do. Right, cpzilliacus?

Absolutely. 

[The Ghostbuster]

When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

[1995hoo]

When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

I'd use them for practical reasons, just as I do with the Beltway lanes now. My wife and I drive to work together on Fridays. Coming home we take I-66 (HOV-2) to the Beltway and then the toll lanes. It's about 26 miles that way and we've made it in as little as 23 minutes. Via the most direct route it's 15 miles, but it takes at least 45 minutes and often longer. In my view it's an easy call to pay the toll, even when it's high like it was tonight ($8.20, and we paid an additional $1.75 on I-95 because we were going to Wegmans instead of coming directly home).

[cpzilliacus]

When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

I'd use them for practical reasons, just as I do with the Beltway lanes now. My wife and I drive to work together on Fridays. Coming home we take I-66 (HOV-2) to the Beltway and then the toll lanes. It's about 26 miles that way and we've made it in as little as 23 minutes. Via the most direct route it's 15 miles, but it takes at least 45 minutes and often longer. In my view it's an easy call to pay the toll, even when it's high like it was tonight ($8.20, and we paid an additional $1.75 on I-95 because we were going to Wegmans instead of coming directly home).

So you will drop the I-66 "detour" and just take the HOV/Toll lanes on 395 instead?

[1995hoo]

When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

I'd use them for practical reasons, just as I do with the Beltway lanes now. My wife and I drive to work together on Fridays. Coming home we take I-66 (HOV-2) to the Beltway and then the toll lanes. It's about 26 miles that way and we've made it in as little as 23 minutes. Via the most direct route it's 15 miles, but it takes at least 45 minutes and often longer. In my view it's an easy call to pay the toll, even when it's high like it was tonight ($8.20, and we paid an additional $1.75 on I-95 because we were going to Wegmans instead of coming directly home).

So you will drop the I-66 "detour" and just take the HOV/Toll lanes on 395 instead?

I don't know yet and the reason is that it is a hassle to get from my wife's office at the Watergate to I-395 due to reversible roads, whereas there's a direct ramp onto the Roosevelt Bridge. The alternatives to I-395 are either 23 Street or go over the bridge and turn around somewhere. The latter option stinks due to backups at the two exits prior to the HOV area.

[cpzilliacus]

Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

It is quite possible to make biking in the U.S. much safer than it is today.  But the politics of same have prevented it.

Case in point is the ICC bike and pedestrian trail.  IMO it should have run end-to-end from Shady Grove to U.S. 1. 

Instead we have a trail that is badly fragmented into at least 6 sections, and not much connectivity between those sections. Some of the blame goes to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, but I think more of the blame lies with the county governments for not insisting and demanding a trail all the way.

[AlexandriaVA]

Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

It is quite possible to make biking in the U.S. much safer than it is today.  But the politics of same have prevented it.

Case in point is the ICC bike and pedestrian trail.  IMO it should have run end-to-end from Shady Grove to U.S. 1. 

Instead we have a trail that is badly fragmented into at least 6 sections, and not much connectivity between those sections. Some of the blame goes to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, but I think more of the blame lies with the county governments for not insisting and demanding a trail all the way.

http://stevepatrickadams.com/if-roads-were-like-bike-lanes/

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/40/87/58/408758c780b37393711a2d2580456270.jpg

[NJRoadfan]

Fragmented bike lanes are common around here. NJ has a complete streets initiative, but that usually means just a recently reconstructed section of roadway gets shoulder bike lanes. Municipal borders are another enemy of bike lanes, cross an invisible line and a nice network of bike lanes and signed routes just vanishes.

[cpzilliacus]

Fragmented bike lanes are common around here. NJ has a complete streets initiative, but that usually means just a recently reconstructed section of roadway gets shoulder bike lanes. Municipal borders are another enemy of bike lanes, cross an invisible line and a nice network of bike lanes and signed routes just vanishes.

In the case of the ICC, none of those reasons really apply, since the state was building the entire project, and there were two counties and zero municipalities involved.  The bike/pedestrian trail was in the plans of both counties, but they were apparently unwilling to push the state - hard - to get it built, or to put up some of their own dollars to move things along.

[cpzilliacus]

WTOP Radio: Va. lawmakers differ on future of I-66 tolls

With several bills on the table that would block tolls for solo drivers on Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, Virginia Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne made his case to some skeptical lawmakers Wednesday morning, just before the 2016 General Assembly session began.

"I know there was a lot of rhetoric during the election, and if I contributed to that, I am here to apologize, I know it got very heated in that regard, but the average toll is $6,"  Layne says.

Layne says the expanded hours for HOV rules in conjunction with allowing solo drivers a way to use the road during restricted periods for the first time add capacity to the roadway.

But opponents of the HOV changes and toll plans, such as Sen. Chap Petersen, D-Fairfax, dispute that.