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Oddities within Texas

Started by roadman65, April 25, 2022, 11:05:49 AM

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jtespi

Does anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.
I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

Also, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?
On this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.


bwana39

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AM
Does anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.
I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

Also, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?
On this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.

The style of the word Texas on the State Highways seems to be consistent from El Paso to Texarkana. The gantry signs have Texas at the top and the reassurance markers show it under.

As to the US-54 sign. THe sign itself is an anomaly. It is a white sign. On any other color of sign the standard unlined shield would work fine. Not sure if the HM signs are all white or if this one is an outlier.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

roadman65

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AM
Does anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.
I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

Also, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?
On this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.

Also to note FM and RM routes are in squares on guide signs but stand alone shields use the Texas map for both, but instead of using FM ( that stands for Farm to Market) or RM ( that means Ranch to Market) they write next to the route number Farm Road or Ranch Road.

Not unusual or uncommon in Texas your notice of shield use
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: bwana39 on July 01, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AM
Does anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.
I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

Also, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?
On this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.

The style of the word Texas on the State Highways seems to be consistent from El Paso to Texarkana. The gantry signs have Texas at the top and the reassurance markers show it under.

As to the US-54 sign. THe sign itself is an anomaly. It is a white sign. On any other color of sign the standard unlined shield would work fine. Not sure if the HM signs are all white or if this one is an outlier.

This one has always annoyed me for the same reason.

kphoger

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 01, 2022, 09:11:01 AM

Quote from: bwana39 on July 01, 2022, 08:31:53 AM

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AM
Does anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.
I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

Also, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?
On this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.

The style of the word Texas on the State Highways seems to be consistent from El Paso to Texarkana. The gantry signs have Texas at the top and the reassurance markers show it under.

As to the US-54 sign. THe sign itself is an anomaly. It is a white sign. On any other color of sign the standard unlined shield would work fine. Not sure if the HM signs are all white or if this one is an outlier.

This one has always annoyed me for the same reason.

Same here.  It's definitely not an outlier, as I've seen multiple signs like that.  Yes, they annoy me too.

Here are some more examples I've driven past:

San Angelo:  https://goo.gl/maps/a59renNQH8DC8eZa7
San Angelo:  https://goo.gl/maps/fvwy973HKi3uXLxi9 (with outline?)
Laredo:  https://goo.gl/maps/zGDZfpSKFTNy4wSq8
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jtespi

Forgive me if this doesn't qualify as an oddity because it's almost certainly a mistake:

TxDOT contractors installing word pavement markings on US-54 before the I-10 "spaghetti bowl" interchange just created US-375.
I can't believe they made this mistake because the US highway shield is a lot more complicated to cut out than a simple rectangle.

On the exit ramp from I-10 east in the same interchange, the correct LP-375 shield was installed on the pavement. (For that pavement marking, I think the word loop is below the number because as you're driving, you're reading bottom to top instead of top to bottom.)

CtrlAltDel

I guess it's more of an oddity of Texas than an oddity within Texas, but I find it strange that reassurance signs will often have just the route shield without a direction banner.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

J N Winkler

#57
Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AMDoes anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?

Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.  I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

It is, and has long been, the standard in Texas for guide-sign shields for the various state systems to have:

*  A designator at the top (for all State Highways other than NASA 1, this is "TEXAS") in smaller Series D type at a size that is uniform for a given height of shield (6" for 36" shields)

*  The number in larger Series D digits at normal spacing, again at a size that is uniform for a given height of shield (18" for 36" shields)

*  Width that varies in 1" increments as needed to accommodate the designator, digits, and prescribed horizontal padding for the latter (4" for 36" shields)

In contradistinction, the independent-mount versions of these shields are always square, so the digits--which are also always Series D--are shrunk to fit as needed for higher-numbered routes.

As for why TxDOT (or, perhaps more likely, its predecessor agency) chose an uniform variable-width design for guide-sign shield for all of the state systems and retained squares only for independent mount with varying designs for the individual systems, rather than some other option, I do not know.

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AMAlso, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?

Texas, like the vast majority of states, does not use black outlines for light shields on dark backgrounds.

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AMOn this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.

I think what we are seeing results from an incomplete design specification.

This is a standard R14-6T sign for hazmat detours (the "T" indicates the design is specific to Texas), and both shields need a black outline since they are white at the edge and against a white background.  The example in Standard Highway Sign Designs for Texas uses shields for I-47 and SH 357 (I-47 is fictional, and I suspect SH 357 is too), and they both have black outlines.  However, no width is specified for the outline.  The drawing is also unclear as to what contrast treatment is to be used for US routes.  For the similar truck route sign (R14-5T), I-20 and US 40 are the example routes and US 40 appears against a black square with rounded corners (essentially, the independent-mount marker is patched onto the sign).
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 02, 2022, 03:25:08 AM
Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AMDoes anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?

Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.  I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.

It is, and has long been, the standard in Texas for guide-sign shields for the various state systems to have:

*  A designator at the top (for all State Highways other than NASA 1, this is "TEXAS") in smaller Series D type at a size that is uniform for a given height of shield (6" for 36" shields)

*  The number in larger Series D digits at normal spacing, again at a size that is uniform for a given height of shield (18" for 36" shields)

*  Width that varies in 1" increments as needed to accommodate the designator, digits, and prescribed horizontal padding for the latter (4" for 36" shields)

In contradistinction, the independent-mount versions of these shields are always square, so the digits--which are also always Series D--are shrunk to fit as needed for higher-numbered routes.

As for why TxDOT (or, perhaps more likely, its predecessor agency) chose an uniform variable-width design for guide-sign shield for all of the state systems and retained squares only for independent mount with varying designs for the individual systems, rather than some other option, I do not know.

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AMAlso, why does TxDOT (at least the El Paso district) not like to put black outlines around highway shields on guide signs?

Texas, like the vast majority of states, does not use black outlines for light shields on dark backgrounds.

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AMOn this white sign for Hazmats, it's hard to see the US highway shield for US-54 since there's no black outline.

I think what we are seeing results from an incomplete design specification.

This is a standard R14-6T sign for hazmat detours (the "T" indicates the design is specific to Texas), and both shields need a black outline since they are white at the edge and against a white background.  The example in Standard Highway Sign Designs for Texas uses shields for I-47 and SH 357 (I-47 is fictional, and I suspect SH 357 is too), and they both have black outlines.  However, no width is specified for the outline.  The drawing is also unclear as to what contrast treatment is to be used for US routes.  For the similar truck route sign (R14-5T), I-20 and US 40 are the example routes and US 40 appears against a black square with rounded corners (essentially, the independent-mount marker is patched onto the sign).


I couldn't find the hazmat sign, but I did find that Texas has in it's style guide enhanced mile markers!!

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: jtespi on July 01, 2022, 03:29:37 AM
Does anyone know why on Texas highway guide signs (the BGS) they always put the word "Texas" above the route number?
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/wQdGtLhwYZ6mn6vc6 and https://goo.gl/maps/vbsUReQkkhBtPhM5A

That's the opposite of standalone Texas state highway shields with "Texas" below the number.
I didn't notice that until reviewing some old driving videos I took in El Paso.


Actually it's more of an anomaly when a BGS has a ground mounter version of a state highway or FM shield on it.  It happens sometimes and when it does, its more awkward than the fact there are different shields for both.  The state and FM/RM stand alone shields have smaller digits so the BGS version is easier to read at high speeds. 

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on July 02, 2022, 03:01:34 AM
I guess it's more of an oddity of Texas than an oddity within Texas, but I find it strange that reassurance signs will often have just the route shield without a direction banner.

The reassurance shield without cardinal directions are used mostly for posts with reference markers on it (every two miles in a given direction, they alternate directions).  Basically think of that assembly as more of an enhanced mile marker than a reassurance shield.  The true reassurance shields come after intersections. 

roadman65

The biggest oddity is the fact US 181 still exists.

Being I-37 replaced it all and the fact don't like redundancy of interstates and US routes and normally cancel the US designation, hence US 80 ending in Dallas and US 75 truncated also, you would figure it would be renumbered to a state designation.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: roadman65 on July 06, 2022, 07:59:19 AM
The biggest oddity is the fact US 181 still exists.

Being I-37 replaced it all and the fact don't like redundancy of interstates and US routes and normally cancel the US designation, hence US 80 ending in Dallas and US 75 truncated also, you would figure it would be renumbered to a state designation.

The difference is I-20 and I-45 were placed directly on top of US-80 and US-75 respectively.  US-181 is a parallel route servicing other towns that I-37 doesn't service.  I-37 in reality took over the route of SH-9, so that's why it has been deleted. 

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 02, 2022, 11:03:26 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on July 02, 2022, 03:01:34 AM
I guess it's more of an oddity of Texas than an oddity within Texas, but I find it strange that reassurance signs will often have just the route shield without a direction banner.

The reassurance shield without cardinal directions are used mostly for posts with reference markers on it (every two miles in a given direction, they alternate directions).  Basically think of that assembly as more of an enhanced mile marker than a reassurance shield.  The true reassurance shields come after intersections.

I'll have to check that out.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

The Ghostbuster

The biggest oddity I see is TX 130's exit sequence. It starts at 411 and stops at 496 (instead of being numbered 0 or 1-85). Also, US 75 north of Interstate 635 should have mileage-based exits instead of sequential, and US 82's exits 622-686 should be numbered 389-449 (its actual mileage from the New Mexico/Texas border).

J N Winkler

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 06, 2022, 07:52:38 PMThe biggest oddity I see is TX 130's exit sequence. It starts at 411 and stops at 496 (instead of being numbered 0 or 1-85). Also, US 75 north of Interstate 635 should have mileage-based exits instead of sequential, and US 82's exits 622-686 should be numbered 389-449 (its actual mileage from the New Mexico/Texas border).

Among these freeway routes, US 75 is the odd man out.  The others have mileage-based exit numbers based on Texas' uniform location reference system, which has its origin point at a point in northern New Mexico where the parallel that overlaps the top edge of the Panhandle intersects the meridian that passes through the extreme western tip near El Paso.  This is also the reason SH 130 has exit numbers that go up as you go south.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 06, 2022, 07:52:38 PM
The biggest oddity I see is TX 130's exit sequence. It starts at 411 and stops at 496 (instead of being numbered 0 or 1-85). Also, US 75 north of Interstate 635 should have mileage-based exits instead of sequential, and US 82's exits 622-686 should be numbered 389-449 (its actual mileage from the New Mexico/Texas border).

Yes, US-82's exits are reference marker based on the extreme western tip of Texas near El Paso.  The same reason for US-59's exit numbering outside of the I-69 cosigning, albeit its referenced to the extreme northern line of the panhandle (being zero) and counting up going south.  Better thing about this was, you have opened my eyes to exit numbering on US-82 that I never new existed. 

Now for US-75, they have had years, since the late 90s, to fix the sequential numbering north of I-635 but have never got around to it. 

yakra

"Officer, I'm always careful to drive the speed limit no matter where I am and that's what I was doin'." Said "No, you weren't," she said, "Yes, I was." He said, "Madam, I just clocked you at 22 MPH," and she said "That's the speed limit," he said "No ma'am, that's the route numbah!"  - Gary Crocker

The Ghostbuster

I didn't know Mexico was in Maine. The next time I plan to go to Mexico (never been there, and unlikely never will), I just head east and north (instead of west and south).

jtespi

Okay, hopefully this qualifies as an oddity (or a mistake). Why is TxDOT signing US-85 East only at the west end of LP-375 Border West Expressway? Here's a GSV image of Exit 66 for "US-85 East, Paisano Drive." Also, this odd double bridge joint gap looks like a railroad track coincidentally on a bridge that goes over one.

Further down the road (at the intersection with Executive Center Blvd) there's a reassurance sign with the correct US-85 South designation.
Even earlier on I-10 at Exit 13, the BGS correctly says "US-85 South Paisano Dr."

ethanhopkin14

#70
Quote from: jtespi on August 03, 2022, 03:53:18 AM
Okay, hopefully this qualifies as an oddity (or a mistake). Why is TxDOT signing US-85 East only at the west end of LP-375 Border West Expressway? Here's a GSV image of Exit 66 for "US-85 East, Paisano Drive." Also, this odd double bridge joint gap looks like a railroad track coincidentally on a bridge that goes over one.

Further down the road (at the intersection with Executive Center Blvd) there's a reassurance sign with the correct US-85 South designation.
Even earlier on I-10 at Exit 13, the BGS correctly says "US-85 South Paisano Dr."

Looks like somebody has some slpainin to do!!

Just an error on the exit, but the mid bridge railroad crossing is amazing!!!

Also, that US-85 shield is disgusting!  Texas used to make beautiful US shields.  Now they can't do it if they tried. 

The Ghostbuster

Should Texas have de-signed US 85 like New Mexico did?

Thegeet


jtespi

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 10:23:10 AM
Looks like somebody has some slpainin to do!!

Just an error on the exit, but the mid bridge railroad crossing is amazing!!!

Is there anyone I could contact at the El Paso TxDOT office about the incorrect sign for US-85 "east"?

The "mid bridge railroad crossing" is really just an optical illusion based on the coincidence that the bridge expansion joints are almost directly above the RR tracks.


On a slightly related note, when I was driving on LP-375, I noticed that there are two different shields for the LP-375 "tollway" aka the Border West Expressway.
[The "tollway" that'll probably never be a tollway. They even removed the license plate cameras at several locations. It's been in toll deferral period ever since the road opened in October 2019; the pandemic delayed implementation and now I think it won't ever be a tollway.]

One shield seems to be the general Texas toll sign with the Texas flag to the left of the word "toll." The other shield is specific to El Paso and has the CRRMA's logo to the left of the word "toll." (Camino Real Regional Mobility Authority)

Ideally, I'd discuss all this on the El Paso threads but they all seem to be dead unfortunately. :(

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: jtespi on August 06, 2022, 06:02:59 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 10:23:10 AM
Looks like somebody has some slpainin to do!!

Just an error on the exit, but the mid bridge railroad crossing is amazing!!!

Is there anyone I could contact at the El Paso TxDOT office about the incorrect sign for US-85 "east"?

The "mid bridge railroad crossing" is really just an optical illusion based on the coincidence that the bridge expansion joints are almost directly above the RR tracks.


On a slightly related note, when I was driving on LP-375, I noticed that there are two different shields for the LP-375 "tollway" aka the Border West Expressway.
[The "tollway" that'll probably never be a tollway. They even removed the license plate cameras at several locations. It's been in toll deferral period ever since the road opened in October 2019; the pandemic delayed implementation and now I think it won't ever be a tollway.]

One shield seems to be the general Texas toll sign with the Texas flag to the left of the word "toll." The other shield is specific to El Paso and has the CRRMA's logo to the left of the word "toll." (Camino Real Regional Mobility Authority)

Ideally, I'd discuss all this on the El Paso threads but they all seem to be dead unfortunately. :(

EL PASO IS NOT DEAD!

Seriously though, I don't have an answer for you as each city in Texas does their toll roads a bit different.  Reminds me of the two different shields here in the Austin area.  This one and this one.  There are even differet ways it's signed on ground mounted shields; white on blue cardinal directions and black on white cardinal directions



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