DFW: US 380 freeway in Collin and Denton counties

[bwana39]

It sucks that they have to deal with the burden of improving the US-380 corridor along with planning for the Collin County Outer Loop and even needing to get the ball rolling for US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman. But that's the price of having a megapolis of over 7 million people that continues to add more residents at a fast pace. I'm a bit concerned about water supply issues for that region, partly because it might mean more lawsuits between Texas and Oklahoma over rights to water up here.

This really gets me angry.  What makes Texas think they have ANY rights to water in Oklahoma?  Oooh, let's sue OK for rights to Blue River water, etc.  Besides, the tribes have a very large say in all water rights.  I doubt they care whether TX gets any water or not.

Most of the water issues is Texas wanting to get the water before it reaches the Red River (or Lake Texoma). Once it reaches the lake the salinity goes up. The irony, is it is the same water and they are willing to pay  a premium to not have to deal with the salinity. The irony is that it reaches the lake unused.

[rte66man]

It sucks that they have to deal with the burden of improving the US-380 corridor along with planning for the Collin County Outer Loop and even needing to get the ball rolling for US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman. But that's the price of having a megapolis of over 7 million people that continues to add more residents at a fast pace. I'm a bit concerned about water supply issues for that region, partly because it might mean more lawsuits between Texas and Oklahoma over rights to water up here.

This really gets me angry.  What makes Texas think they have ANY rights to water in Oklahoma?  Oooh, let's sue OK for rights to Blue River water, etc.  Besides, the tribes have a very large say in all water rights.  I doubt they care whether TX gets any water or not.

Most of the water issues is Texas wanting to get the water before it reaches the Red River (or Lake Texoma). Once it reaches the lake the salinity goes up. The irony, is it is the same water and they are willing to pay  a premium to not have to deal with the salinity. The irony is that it reaches the lake unused.

Not ironical at all.  The Blue River is the last free-flowing river in eastern OK.  I'm all for progress but I don't want to see it dammed up just so the DFW metroplex can continue its unchecked growth. There needs to be a certain amount of water flowing into the Red River for the exact reason you mentioned (salinity). If Texas really wants OK water, they can work a deal out with the Choctaws for rights to Sardis Lake water.  Maybe then the Corps could get their money back for construction costs (but that's another story).

[In_Correct]

Or Texas can build more lakes and build more rivers so the population can continue to increase and sprawl out. And then the roads & bridges can be upgraded.

[bwana39]

It sucks that they have to deal with the burden of improving the US-380 corridor along with planning for the Collin County Outer Loop and even needing to get the ball rolling for US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman. But that's the price of having a megapolis of over 7 million people that continues to add more residents at a fast pace. I'm a bit concerned about water supply issues for that region, partly because it might mean more lawsuits between Texas and Oklahoma over rights to water up here.

This really gets me angry.  What makes Texas think they have ANY rights to water in Oklahoma?  Oooh, let's sue OK for rights to Blue River water, etc.  Besides, the tribes have a very large say in all water rights.  I doubt they care whether TX gets any water or not.

Most of the water issues is Texas wanting to get the water before it reaches the Red River (or Lake Texoma). Once it reaches the lake the salinity goes up. The irony, is it is the same water and they are willing to pay  a premium to not have to deal with the salinity. The irony is that it reaches the lake unused.

Not ironical at all.  The Blue River is the last free-flowing river in eastern OK.  I'm all for progress but I don't want to see it dammed up just so the DFW metroplex can continue its unchecked growth. There needs to be a certain amount of water flowing into the Red River for the exact reason you mentioned (salinity). If Texas really wants OK water, they can work a deal out with the Choctaws for rights to Sardis Lake water.  Maybe then the Corps could get their money back for construction costs (but that's another story).

Well, the Glover River while much shorter is free flowing as well.

The issue with the Blue is about GROUNDWATER withdrawal. I actually was talking about the Washita around Madill.

As to the suits, they have been about Oklahoma entities trying to lease water rights to North Texas water utilities and other Oklahoma entities suing to stop it.  They aren't even trying to sell said water rights, they are trying to lease them. If they ever need them in the future, they can reclaim them.

This said, I am conceptually mixed on this. I agree with the Oklahoma soverignity and at the same time, it is about using unused resources with minimal disruption of the community.

[In_Correct]

If Oklahoma makes money by leasing water to Texas, Oklahoma can use the money to build and improve and upgrade the roads and bridges.

[Brian556]

The Collin County Study is completed. Its shows bypasses at Princeton and Farmersville.

http://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/projects/us-highways/us-380-collin-and-denton-county

[MaxConcrete]

In a related development, the draft 2021 TxDOT UTP includes $1.1 billion in new funding for the yellow-orange section between between McKinney and Farmersville.
See page 87
http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/tpp/utp/2021-utp.pdf

This is a nice "win" for the project because expected future revenue for the UTP was reduced, so relatively few new projects were added in this year's document, and this is one of the largest new funding commitments. (Of course, I-35 in Austin is a big commitment, but technically it was an amendment to the 2020 UTP). However, $478 million is listed as "Remaining funding TBD", and future funding is expected to sustain more reductions.

[Bobby5280]

Is there any time table when the new US-380 super highway segments may begin construction? As each year passes new big chunks of development are plopping down in that area. TX DOT will have to start securing ROW in earnest just to preserve the desired corridor.

How far along are the Denton County studies for US-380? It's going to be interesting to see what recommendation they make to connect a new US-380 super highway from the Dallas North Tollway into Loop 288 in Denton. The zone near just west of the DNT can be upgraded to a freeway pretty easily along the existing ROW. But it the corridor gets pretty tight after that.

[MaxConcrete]

Is there any time table when the new US-380 super highway segments may begin construction? As each year passes new big chunks of development are plopping down in that area. TX DOT will have to start securing ROW in earnest just to preserve the desired corridor.

How far along are the Denton County studies for US-380? It's going to be interesting to see what recommendation they make to connect a new US-380 super highway from the Dallas North Tollway into Loop 288 in Denton. The zone near just west of the DNT can be upgraded to a freeway pretty easily along the existing ROW. But it the corridor gets pretty tight after that.

I'm quite sure all the right-of-way in Collin is now being protected from development. Collin County voters approved $600 million for the project in 2018, and my perception is that most of that funding is slated for right-of-way expenses. Also, the recommended alignment was selected mostly to place the highway on undeveloped property, which is why it has so many curves and twists. The last I heard/read was that construction is expected between 2025 and 2030.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/11/07/collin-county-voters-say-yes-to-750-million-in-bonds-for-road-projects/

But I share your concern about the Denton County section. In 2019 there was a feasibility study in progress, but the web site has not been updated in 18 months, which makes me wonder if there is some kind of issue blocking progress or maybe the study was suspended.
http://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/sites/default/files/docs/0135-10-061_US380_PM1_Presentation_Slides.pdf

There is a $160 million non-freeway widening slated for bidding in May 2021, from the DNT to US 377. That project will widen US 380 to six lanes and add five grade separations, but it will not be a freeway. So that seems to suggest that if there is going to be a US 380 freeway in Denton Country, it will be on a new alignment to the north.
https://news.dentoncounty.gov/2020/01/30/us-380-widening-plans-complete-project-fully-funded/
https://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/let/2021/denton.htm#013510050

[Bobby5280]

Grade separations at key intersections along US-380 is better than nothing. Still, it's kind of disappointing. They should have started improving the US-380 corridor 20 years ago. It was already very obvious the direction of development was heading that way back in the mid to late 1990's. Now US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman is in a similar situation now.

Even if TX DOT (or other road building authorities) plan to build a new East-West super highway between the DNT and Loop 288 in Denton on a new alignment North of current US-380 their options for such a new alignment are disappearing fast. I wonder about other DFW area projects like the Colin County Outer Loop.

[In_Correct]

Grade separations at key intersections along US-380 is better than nothing. Still, it's kind of disappointing. They should have started improving the US-380 corridor 20 years ago. It was already very obvious the direction of development was heading that way back in the mid to late 1990's. Now US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman is in a similar situation now.

Even if TX DOT (or other road building authorities) plan to build a new East-West super highway between the DNT and Loop 288 in Denton on a new alignment North of current US-380 their options for such a new alignment are disappearing fast. I wonder about other DFW area projects like the Colin County Outer Loop.

More in between Gainesville and Whitesboro.

...

Perhaps U.S. 380 should go on the Outer Loop.

[MaxConcrete]

The final route candidates for the US 380 Freeway in Denton County are now posted on the public meeting site.
https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/get-involved/about/hearings-meetings/dallas/120220.html
Presentation with maps
http://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/sites/default/files/docs/0135-10-061_US%20380%20Denton%20County%20Feasibility%20Study_VPM%20Presentation_FINAL.pdf

All the route options except blue are totally ridiculous for serving trips on the US 380 corridor. Vastly indirect, winding like a snake and highly inefficient. All except the blue option are either on the Outer Loop alignment, or within 1 mile of it.  It looks like they mostly discarded the original universe of options, since all except blue don't even match to a universe option.

I have a bad feeling that one of the absurd alignments will be selected. One reason is that there is already a $160 million improvement project on the existing (blue) alignment scheduled to receive bids in May, and selecting the blue alignment would likely require that work to be torn out. Another reason is that in North Texas, ridiculous alignments are often justified by saying they'll promote development in undeveloped areas, or that they'll serve unserved areas (as opposed to using an existing corridor).

Since the Orange and Teal alignments are actually on the outer loop alignment, and the purple and yellow alignments are within one mile of the outer loop alignment, they are all redundant with the outer loop. If the blue option is not selected, my view is that they should just go ahead and build it on the outer loop alignment, which means the teal alignment. That would also cover the route 428 freeway, which is in Denton's long term plan.

Of course I hope the blue option is selected. My only glimmer of hope is that on the Evaluation Criteria matrix it has the least impact on the floodplain and greenbelt, and also the least residential displacements. And since environmental impact weighs so heavily, that could be a deciding factor.

The "Right of Way to be acquired" numbers appear to be off by a factor of 10. The numbers seem reasonable if you divide by 10. A 400-foot-wide corridor requires around 50 acres per mile, but most of the options use some existing right-of-way, so the average needed would be less than 50, and blue needs only about 24 acres per mile, far less than the others, which could also help it win.

I'll hope for the best and prepare for the worst when the final decision is rendered.

[Plutonic Panda]

The blue alignment seems like a no brainer. It might also be prudent to build the teal alignment even with a blue alignment built.

[MaxConcrete]

The blue alignment seems like a no brainer. It might also be prudent to build the teal alignment even with a blue alignment built.

The blue alignment would seem to be a no-brainer, but reasonable logic is not necessarily used in these modern alignment studies. We can't expect reasonable logic to prevail.

The outer loop (teal alignment) is part of the regional long-term and will probably be built eventually. Emphasize probably and eventually. But if an alignment close to the outer loop (but not on it) is selected, for example some combination of purple and/or orange, it could cause the outer loop to lose its independent utility, and lose its justification for being built.

[Plutonic Panda]

The blue alignment seems like a no brainer. It might also be prudent to build the teal alignment even with a blue alignment built.

The blue alignment would seem to be a no-brainer, but reasonable logic is not necessarily used in these modern alignment studies. We can't expect reasonable logic to prevail.

The outer loop (teal alignment) is part of the regional long-term and will probably be built eventually. Emphasize probably and eventually. But if an alignment close to the outer loop (but not on it) is selected, for example some combination of purple and/or orange, it could cause the outer loop to lose its independent utility, and lose its justification for being built.

I do have some hope though as there is a survey and they mention the very same thing you do about the teal alignment being built even with another alignment built. I can't imagine any other alignment chosen besides blue where they still decide to build the teal alignment so that gives some glimmer of hope the blue alignment will in fact be the chosen one. It's also among the least expensive and most direct(less miles). They would be crazy not to choose it.

[Bobby5280]

The proposed Blue alignment for US-380 really is the only option that makes any sense. So many new housing developments are eating away big chunks of potential ROW land both North and South of the existing US-380 corridor. The pace of real estate development is rapid enough that any of the wildly crooked, indirect route proposals (yellow, purple, orange or teal) would probably end up being every bit as difficult to build as the far more direct Blue route.

The Blue route would definitely require the purchase and removal of existing (and fairly new) commercial properties along one side (or even both sides) of US-380. I think clearing commercial properties is going to be easier (less controversial) to do than bulldozing through a relatively new subdivision of McMansion homes.

The Blue route also has another advantage: FEWER miles of road to build.

The other proposed routes come so close to the Outer Loop it almost creates and either-or situation for either corridor. A couple of the route options overlap portions of the Dallas North Tollway and/or the Outer Loop extension.

Enough growth is happening in that region that "either-or" for US-380 vs the Outer Loop is not a sensible option. It would be like going a few miles South and going back in time to make everyone choose between the Bush Turnpike and TX-121 toll road for which superhighway to keep and which one to never build. Both turned out to be extremely necessary. There are just as many miles separating US-380 and the Outer Loop corridor as the Bush Turnpike and TX-121.

I think they need to figure out some way how to get the Blue option for US-380 turned into a reality or just not bother with it at all. Further, various planning bodies need to stop farting around in regards to the Outer Loop corridor. They had better get the minimum of a Super 2 established ASAP to get ROW acquisition moving. Otherwise it will be a hopeless fantasy to build. AND they need to be looking hard at US-82 farther to the North.

[Road Hog]

Folks in Celina and Aubrey will really love the teal alignment. It basically extends the Outer Loop west and runs 380 up the Tollway. I sure hope these concurrent segments are free. It might also spark faster work on the Outer Loop at least to 75.

[MaxConcrete]

https://communityimpact.com/dallas-fort-worth/mckinney/government/2020/12/15/city-council-recommends-potential-us-380-alignment-through-mckinney/

McKinney is promoting a a different alignment on the west end of the Collin County section, the alignment B shown below. The article says McKinney reaffirmed its opposition to a freeway on the existing 380 alignment. TxDOT is holding a scoping session this month about the alignment. I'm thinking there's a good chance the B option could be adopted since it follows a corridor of undeveloped land.

[Road Hog]

Put me down for B_E_C. The fewer sharp corners, the better.

[Plutonic Panda]

B and F should both be built.

[r15-1]

B and F should both be built.

B, E, and C should be the freeway route.

US 380 on option F is already a landlocked 3x3 arterial with a median no wider than needed for left turn lanes for most of the corridor west of US 75 to Coit Road. Hard to see much more that can be done in most of that stretch without major business and residential displacements. Even connecting option B back into the existing corridor will create significant issues around Coit Road.

[Plutonic Panda]

B and F should both be built.

B, E, and C should be the freeway route.

US 380 on option F is already a landlocked 3x3 arterial with a median no wider than needed for left turn lanes for most of the corridor west of US 75 to Coit Road. Hard to see much more that can be done in most of that stretch without major business and residential displacements. Even connecting option B back into the existing corridor will create significant issues around Coit Road.

McKinney Big Dig 

I wonder if B, E, and C are ultimately chosen if TxDOT will opt to do any spot upgrades along the current 380 like grade separations where possible or perhaps a Jersey style median and RIRO for most spots. Not sure if that would be good for the area or discourage development.

[Bobby5280]

The combination of the "B" "E" and "C" segments would be the least crappy of the bypass alternatives around the busiest part of McKinney (the US-75/US-380 intersection). The farthest North "peak" of the "B" segment is about 2.5 miles North of the existing US-380 alignment. That's not too terribly bad.

Still, even if the existing US-380 alignment cannot be fully upgraded to Interstate standards, it will be increasingly necessary to do major improvements along the route anyway. Some intersections need grade separations for thru traffic. I think some other street outlets and drive ways need to be cut-off from the US-380 main lanes.

US-380 is currently a slog anywhere within half a mile of the US-75 interchange. There's lots of traffic lights closely spaced together and tons of driveways and other side streets dumping traffic directly onto US-380 with no filtering at all. It would be really nice if there was some kind of elevated 4-lane structure that carried thru US-380 traffic over the US-75 interchange and dodge possibly half a dozen or more traffic signals along the way.

[sprjus4]

^

Improvements along US-380 could involve a jersey freeway-like design such like the one used along US-90 Alt outside Houston. RIRO driveways and minor roads, no median crossovers, and grade separations at crossroads to eliminate signals.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/29.6155676,-95.5463129/29.6770708,-95.4279803/@29.6486409,-95.4884621,13913m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

[r15-1]

A grade separation in the existing corridor at the Coit Road intersection is a must to prevent a major bottleneck there. Eastbound and westbound flyover ramps to connect to and from the B-E-C freeway alignment should be part of that grade separation just east of Coit Road.

Even if the grade separation doesn't continue further east of the freeway split, getting traffic onto and off of the new freeway alignment smoothly has to be a top priority.

And there should be enough room in the existing corridor to continue the freeway west of Coit Road past Preston Road and the Dallas North Tollway almost to SH 423 before it gets landlocked again.