From Newsweek:
Gen Z Is Choosing Not to DriveQuoteGen Z, the generation born after 1997, appears to be less enamored by the prospect of driving than previous generations, according to consulting firm McKinsey, with potential implications for the future of the car industry.
This group of Americans is less likely to have a license than its older counterparts at the same age. McKinsey points out that in 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds held a license. But those numbers have dropped substantially, and by 2020, only 25 percent of 16-year-olds and 45 percent of 17-year-olds have a driver's license, the consulting firm said citing data from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tt)
I wonder how much is due to high insurance costs or the additional training and restrictions on new drivers aged 16-17 verses new drives 18 and older.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 21, 2024, 11:47:20 AM
From Newsweek:
Gen Z Is Choosing Not to DriveQuoteGen Z, the generation born after 1997, appears to be less enamored by the prospect of driving than previous generations, according to consulting firm McKinsey, with potential implications for the future of the car industry.
This group of Americans is less likely to have a license than its older counterparts at the same age. McKinsey points out that in 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds held a license. But those numbers have dropped substantially, and by 2020, only 25 percent of 16-year-olds and 45 percent of 17-year-olds have a driver's license, the consulting firm said citing data from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tt)
I wonder how much is due to high insurance costs or the additional training and restrictions on new drivers aged 16-17 verses new drives 18 and older.
Also...
Uber and other rideshares didn't exist in 1997.
Older teens want something? Order via Amazon. Or UberEats. Options that also didn't exist in 1997.
Parents, who have coddled their kids to the point where kids have no clue what unstructured playtime is, have never ridden a bike around the block on their own and are called upon for their every need, continue to drive them around.
Used car prices are much higher.
Ten years ago it was "Millennials are choosing not to drive"...
They've also likely to have bought into the idea that driverless cars are just around the corner and will negate the need to drive at all.
Also, more modern the car, the less 'tinkerable' it is. It is much less easy to fix and modify by themselves. Decades ago, modifying an older car and 'cruising' it down the downtown main street here in Appleton (College Ave) was a generations old, time honored tradition, a rite of passage. Now, younger males are much more enamored with interactive on-line video games and the like and much less with cars. It is a societal thing.
Mike
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 21, 2024, 11:52:57 AM
Also...
Uber and other rideshares didn't exist in 1997.
Older teens want something? Order via Amazon. Or UberEats. Options that also didn't exist in 1997.
Parents, who have coddled their kids to the point where kids have no clue what unstructured playtime is, have never ridden a bike around the block on their own and are called upon for their every need, continue to drive them around.
Used car prices are much higher.
I would agree that the shopping mall and the movies don't hold quite the attractions to kids now verses when I was growing up in the 1980s. There is also somewhat less of a trust of the outside world compared to earlier years. Even then, my mother would insist on driving me to/from the shopping mall verses allowing me to walk to Sunrise Mall because it was along the very busy Sunrise Blvd. Now, if it was dark, rainy, and/or very cold, I can understand. If I planned it right, I could take the bus home. But, there is nothing wrong with walking or biking.
Having said that, the reality check may be cashed when they get a job. Being the ones with the least seniority, they usually get the worst shifts including working weekend shift. When they get the schedule and see that they are scheduled to begin at 5 AM, but the earliest they can get there (with transit) is 6:30 AM and protest, their supervisor will look at them and state, "How is that
my problem?
You need this job more than
I need you."
Then, of course, you point to the "helicopter parents" who, being ever fearful, won't allow the kids to walk the neighborhood or bike in the streets unsupervised or without checking in every ten minutes.
I always wanted to drive when I was a kid. Even if I didn't want to, it wasn't going to be something my parents were going to give me an option on passing. Not wanting to drive as an adult to me feels alien as it is something I've always enjoyed. Then again I've been surprised by how many people in the road community in general don't like driving.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 12:27:02 PM
I always wanted to drive when I was a kid. Even if I didn't want to, it wasn't going to be something my parents were going to give me an option on passing. Not wanting to drive as an adult to me feels alien as it is something I've always enjoyed. Then again I've been surprised by how many people in the road community in general don't like driving.
Driving is not really a goal by itself for most people, more like a tool to achieve certain goals.
If life can be organized without driving - which is more plausible in larger cities, and even in smaller ones with delivery and remote work, then why should they drive?
My 16 yo son probably will want to learn.
He was not able to get a summer job last year, and we think part of the reason was that he was not able to transport himself very easily.
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 12:27:02 PM
I always wanted to drive when I was a kid. Even if I didn't want to, it wasn't going to be something my parents were going to give me an option on passing. Not wanting to drive as an adult to me feels alien as it is something I've always enjoyed. Then again I've been surprised by how many people in the road community in general don't like driving.
Driving is not really a goal by itself for most people, more like a tool to achieve certain goals.
If life can be organized without driving - which is more plausible in larger cities, and even in smaller ones with delivery and remote work, then why should they drive?
Not wanting freedom of movement and lacking a desire to leave immediate surrounding are things I seemingly cannot understand.
Quote from: on_wisconsin on January 21, 2024, 11:53:58 AM
Ten years ago it was "Millennials are choosing not to drive"...
10-15 years from now,
Generation Alpha* Chooses not to Drive...
* how dare those 12 year-olds not get jobs and create a better generational name for themselves!
Quote from: mgk920 on January 21, 2024, 12:15:44 PM...'cruising' it down the downtown main street here in Appleton (College Ave) was a generations old, time honored tradition, a rite of passage
Yeah, but was it merely 3-5 generations-old? The secondhand vehicle market wasn't a financially approachable option for most families, until post-WWII. Car culture forgets that there's lots of people who didn't really care that much or probably didn't have enough spare change to waste after owning a single vehicle in the household.
Before that, someone well-to-do might take their horse-and-carriage out for a trot, but towns and cities were smaller, thus it was statistically a smaller percentage performing that tradition or rite-of-passage. Someone out the countryside wasn't as likely to take much of a day to get into town for pleasure's sake, unless they had lots of idle time.
My daughter has enjoyed learning how to drive stick but I'm not sure that she'd really want to go on a all-day drive for the heck of it just yet (if at all).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 12:27:02 PM
I always wanted to drive when I was a kid. Even if I didn't want to, it wasn't going to be something my parents were going to give me an option on passing. Not wanting to drive as an adult to me feels alien as it is something I've always enjoyed. Then again I've been surprised by how many people in the road community in general don't like driving.
Driving is not really a goal by itself for most people, more like a tool to achieve certain goals.
If life can be organized without driving - which is more plausible in larger cities, and even in smaller ones with delivery and remote work, then why should they drive?
Not wanting freedom of movement and lacking a desire to leave immediate surrounding are things I seemingly cannot understand.
Flying and transfer to a city center is definitely an option to see a lot of populated places.
Someone can reasonably argue that limiting travel to driving radius is equally limiting for many people (not necessarily on this site, though)
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 01:09:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 12:27:02 PM
I always wanted to drive when I was a kid. Even if I didn't want to, it wasn't going to be something my parents were going to give me an option on passing. Not wanting to drive as an adult to me feels alien as it is something I've always enjoyed. Then again I've been surprised by how many people in the road community in general don't like driving.
Driving is not really a goal by itself for most people, more like a tool to achieve certain goals.
If life can be organized without driving - which is more plausible in larger cities, and even in smaller ones with delivery and remote work, then why should they drive?
Not wanting freedom of movement and lacking a desire to leave immediate surrounding are things I seemingly cannot understand.
Flying and transfer to a city center is definitely an option to see a lot of populated places.
Someone can reasonably argue that limiting travel to driving radius is equally limiting for many people (not necessarily on this site, though)
Thing is though, if you control the vehicle/car the only obstacle from getting where you want to go is you. Once you start stacking more people and transportation services to get you where you want to go the chances of failure becomes far more likely.
My Gen Z son drives. Has one of our cars while he finishes up college.
My Gen Z daughter (gainfully employed) does not drive, but lives in a big city where she doesn't have to. She accepts the limited broader mobility as a result, although she hops on trains and planes to get out further.
I learned to drive at age 17, which was unusually late for the time--many of my peers started learning at age 14. Quite a few of them were lousy drivers because their parents treated driving (one of the most complex tasks a human will ever perform in terms of motor coordination and cognitive processing) as something to be picked up through osmosis or through a driver's-education course where they might get at most three 30-minute sessions of road time, each involving just 10 minutes behind the wheel. Enough states have at minimum a 50-hour logbook requirement that it is harder to get away with that slapdash approach, at least at younger ages where graduated licensing systems are more stringent.
There are metro areas, even in the US, where I believe car ownership is often an expensive mistake. Nevertheless, driving is a useful skill to have in one's arsenal. I think members of Generation Z are less likely to have it by age 18 not just because of graduated licensing and the various factors others have mentioned, but also because fewer households are likely to have the free disposable income to pay for it.
Perhaps one of the largest generational changes is the expectation that children will drive. My dad started teaching me when I was nine on the family property. It wasn't uncommon for me to drive and do errands for my parents so long as I stuck to local roads around when I was eleven/twelve. I was told that my services would be required when I was sixteen. I had to shuttle my younger sister to her school activities and run increasingly more complex errands. I'm sure in retrospect all this saved my parents a lot of hassle that they would have otherwise had to dealt with.
The correct headline is:
Quote
Some in Gen Z Is Choosing Not to Drive
Like all such sweeping pronouncements, taking a statistical change from one "generation" to another and then extrapolating this as "Generation whatever" does this or that, is just poor journalism.
And, yes, as others above have pointed out, these "this kids today, they don't want a car" stories have been out for a very long time.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 02:02:52 PM
Perhaps one of the largest generational changes is the expectation that children will drive. My dad started teaching me when I was nine on the family property. It wasn't uncommon for me to drive and do errands for my parents so long as I stuck to local roads around when I was eleven/twelve. I was told that my services would be required when I was sixteen. I had to shuttle my younger sister to her school activities and run increasingly more complex errands. I'm sure in retrospect all this saved my parents a lot of hassle that they would have otherwise had to dealt with.
Heh. Smalltownism, it sounds like. Makes one wonder what they were doing while the kids were away.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 02:13:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 02:02:52 PM
Perhaps one of the largest generational changes is the expectation that children will drive. My dad started teaching me when I was nine on the family property. It wasn't uncommon for me to drive and do errands for my parents so long as I stuck to local roads around when I was eleven/twelve. I was told that my services would be required when I was sixteen. I had to shuttle my younger sister to her school activities and run increasingly more complex errands. I'm sure in retrospect all this saved my parents a lot of hassle that they would have otherwise had to dealt with.
Heh. Smalltownism, it sounds like. Makes one wonder what they were doing while the kids were away.
Eh, only for six years that I lived in New Milford, Connecticut. I lived my first seven years in Metro Detroit, I spent 8th-12th grade in Lansing and Chicago. Similarly, my older brother was equipped with a moped to go do things at a similar age in Metro Detroit during the 1980s. A Wayne County Sheriff gave my dad a stern talking to about letting my brother ride his moped unlicensed in Detroit circa 1986.
As for what my parents were doing in their free time who's to say? I'm sure anyone who has shuffled kids out of the door can probably make some assumptions and likely not be far off the mark.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 21, 2024, 12:24:23 PM
When they get the schedule and see that they are scheduled to begin at 5 AM, but the earliest they can get there (with transit) is 6:30 AM and protest, their supervisor will look at them and state, "How is that my problem? You need this job more than I need you."
And then when the employee quits and gets a job that starts at 7 (because the unemployment rate is so low the employee actually doesn't need that job more than the employer needs employees) they will whine to anyone that listens that nobody wants to work anymore...
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
I would say there is a contradiction here. You want things to be within the walking range, presumably in high density areas - yet not crowded? Is that possible?
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 05:20:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
I would say there is a contradiction here. You want things to be within the walking range, presumably in high density areas - yet not crowded? Is that possible?
More options means that people can be a bit more dispersed. Note that Seattle's popular neighborhoods are far enough apart that one doesn't totally overcrowd on a normal weekend (events excluded), while a centralized suburban destination like a shopping mall would be very hard to reach by most modes.
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
Trailheads are often where you make them. Speaking as a distance runner (and sometimes cyclist) I tend to just park further away from popular urban trailheads and travel on foot to them. Alternatively if I know a trail is going to be super busy I often just get up before everyone (usually before sunrise) else does. Going on weekdays I've found is often an easiest bypass for crowds at any popular trail (urban or otherwise).
Regardless, you certainly have way more urban trails in your area than any other place I've lived. You also have a lot of Cascade Range stuff near you, but it would require having a car to visit practically. Why limit yourself fully to what is your immediate urban environment if one could afford to do otherwise? I'm sure that I would think Fresno was way worse if I never left the city to partake in what is in the mountains around me.
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 05:20:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
I would say there is a contradiction here. You want things to be within the walking range, presumably in high density areas - yet not crowded? Is that possible?
Having to deal with or out compete the crowds are just part of the experience on any popular trail. Starting early, late or during a work week can go long way. I don't necessarily like taking such measures but if you want an enjoyable crowd-free experience it is often what has to be done.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 05:20:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
I would say there is a contradiction here. You want things to be within the walking range, presumably in high density areas - yet not crowded? Is that possible?
Having to deal with or out compete the crowds are just part of the experience on any popular trail. Starting early, late or during a work week can go long way. I don't necessarily like taking such measures but if you want an enjoyable crowd-free experience it is often what has to be done.
Or...you establish quotas and pay for enforcement of such. :D
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 05:20:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
I would say there is a contradiction here. You want things to be within the walking range, presumably in high density areas - yet not crowded? Is that possible?
More options means that people can be a bit more dispersed. Note that Seattle's popular neighborhoods are far enough apart that one doesn't totally overcrowd on a normal weekend (events excluded), while a centralized suburban destination like a shopping mall would be very hard to reach by most modes.
More options means less population density, especially when you are talking urban thousands per square mile.
Until you consider a bench on a 20x20 patch of grass as a recreational option.
Eh, last time I was in WA a few weeks ago, we walked around the woods by Evergreen State without any issue on the weekend. My sister, the local, didn't seem to worry about a crowding issue.
Same goes for my brother and walking around on the few trails around Redmond or Bothell.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2024, 05:20:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PM
When we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
The suburbs. The lack of walkable places is still a huge issue here and only getting worse as traditional third places are ripped out.
The recreational opportunities all require a vehicle and the ability to jockey for very limited parking on weekends. The exception is the Trailhead Direct bus, which runs on weekends to already overfull trails, so they aren't enjoyable.
I would say there is a contradiction here. You want things to be within the walking range, presumably in high density areas - yet not crowded? Is that possible?
Having to deal with or out compete the crowds are just part of the experience on any popular trail. Starting early, late or during a work week can go long way. I don't necessarily like taking such measures but if you want an enjoyable crowd-free experience it is often what has to be done.
Or...you establish quotas and pay for enforcement of such. :D
Even then, most quota and reservation systems can be circumvented. I did that a ton during 2020 with Yosemite. All I had to do was get inside the park boundary before the reservation hours started. The only to blame for not getting up early and to the park was me.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 21, 2024, 12:24:23 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 21, 2024, 11:52:57 AM
Also...
Uber and other rideshares didn't exist in 1997.
Older teens want something? Order via Amazon. Or UberEats. Options that also didn't exist in 1997.
Parents, who have coddled their kids to the point where kids have no clue what unstructured playtime is, have never ridden a bike around the block on their own and are called upon for their every need, continue to drive them around.
Used car prices are much higher.
I would agree that the shopping mall and the movies don't hold quite the attractions to kids now verses when I was growing up in the 1980s. There is also somewhat less of a trust of the outside world compared to earlier years. Even then, my mother would insist on driving me to/from the shopping mall verses allowing me to walk to Sunrise Mall because it was along the very busy Sunrise Blvd. Now, if it was dark, rainy, and/or very cold, I can understand. If I planned it right, I could take the bus home. But, there is nothing wrong with walking or biking.
Having said that, the reality check may be cashed when they get a job. Being the ones with the least seniority, they usually get the worst shifts including working weekend shift. When they get the schedule and see that they are scheduled to begin at 5 AM, but the earliest they can get there (with transit) is 6:30 AM and protest, their supervisor will look at them and state, "How is that my problem? You need this job more than I need you."
Then, of course, you point to the "helicopter parents" who, being ever fearful, won't allow the kids to walk the neighborhood or bike in the streets unsupervised or without checking in every ten minutes.
I'm not sure what age you're referring to, but available hours are usually discussed during the interview.
Teenagers still have school, so a boss isn't generally going to say "Well, that's your problem". Applicants need to know what they can work and convey it. If the boss decides to change the employees time after they started the job to hours that aren't conductive with the employee, that's a boss that probably is best to get away from and quit, and a boss that wasted the company's time hiring employees that weren't qualified due to working hour constraints.
If they're an adult, well, lots of adults don't drive. And they still work. In my office, I'd say about 10% solely take transit, including from 1+ hours away.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 21, 2024, 07:02:57 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on January 21, 2024, 12:24:23 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 21, 2024, 11:52:57 AM
Also...
Uber and other rideshares didn't exist in 1997.
Older teens want something? Order via Amazon. Or UberEats. Options that also didn't exist in 1997.
Parents, who have coddled their kids to the point where kids have no clue what unstructured playtime is, have never ridden a bike around the block on their own and are called upon for their every need, continue to drive them around.
Used car prices are much higher.
I would agree that the shopping mall and the movies don't hold quite the attractions to kids now verses when I was growing up in the 1980s. There is also somewhat less of a trust of the outside world compared to earlier years. Even then, my mother would insist on driving me to/from the shopping mall verses allowing me to walk to Sunrise Mall because it was along the very busy Sunrise Blvd. Now, if it was dark, rainy, and/or very cold, I can understand. If I planned it right, I could take the bus home. But, there is nothing wrong with walking or biking.
Having said that, the reality check may be cashed when they get a job. Being the ones with the least seniority, they usually get the worst shifts including working weekend shift. When they get the schedule and see that they are scheduled to begin at 5 AM, but the earliest they can get there (with transit) is 6:30 AM and protest, their supervisor will look at them and state, "How is that my problem? You need this job more than I need you."
Then, of course, you point to the "helicopter parents" who, being ever fearful, won't allow the kids to walk the neighborhood or bike in the streets unsupervised or without checking in every ten minutes.
I'm not sure what age you're referring to, but available hours are usually discussed during the interview.
Teenagers still have school, so a boss isn't generally going to say "Well, that's your problem". Applicants need to know what they can work and convey it. If the boss decides to change the employees time after they started the job to hours that aren't conductive with the employee, that's a boss that probably is best to get away from and quit, and a boss that wasted the company's time hiring employees that weren't qualified due to working hour constraints.
If they're an adult, well, lots of adults don't drive. And they still work. In my office, I'd say about 10% solely take transit, including from 1+ hours away.
As someone who interviews, strangely enough, one of the first interviews that I ever conducted, the interviewee was up front with how Girl Scouts would take precedent to the job and that she would prefer not to perform one of the bulleted duties in our advertisement.
I didn't hire her. So, yeah, an applicant can ask for all the flexibility in the world. But, as someone who's hiring right now, the market is never so labor-sided that one can dictate their own demands and still be competitive. That goes for jobs from admin assistants up to deputy directors in my line of work.
Have to say I've had a darned good track record hiring people for the betterment of the workplaces...something I'm quite proud of. Comes down to really demonstrating skills and real relevant experience. Guess I'm good at interrogating people who stretch their experience too far...
One of the first things I ask applicants about availability. Minor stuff (like no overnights or small restrictions on certain workdays) I'm willing to agree to but sometimes it can get pretty outlandish. I've found that most people aren't fully truthful regarding their availability on their job applications and need to be asked directly.
At my store you have to be 18 to work, and there is a fair number of teenagers who have to get rides to and from work. In fairness, one suffers from epilepsy and can't drive.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 05:31:12 PM
Trailheads are often where you make them. Speaking as a distance runner (and sometimes cyclist) I tend to just park further away from popular urban trailheads and travel on foot to them. Alternatively if I know a trail is going to be super busy I often just get up before everyone (usually before sunrise) else does. Going on weekdays I've found is often an easiest bypass for crowds at any popular trail (urban or otherwise).
Regardless, you certainly have way more urban trails in your area than any other place I've lived. You also have a lot of Cascade Range stuff near you, but it would require having a car to visit practically. Why limit yourself fully to what is your immediate urban environment if one could afford to do otherwise? I'm sure that I would think Fresno was way worse if I never left the city to partake in what is in the mountains around me.
I'm not an early-riser, so I'd rather have some scraps left to those on a different circadian rhythm. :biggrin:
While we are spoiled for choice, there's definitely crowding at the trails that have become popular for their payoffs, gentler terrain, and accessibility. And some of us do want to see what the hype is all about before it gets trampled over by Instagrammers.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 06:41:45 PM
Eh, last time I was in WA a few weeks ago, we walked around the woods by Evergreen State without any issue on the weekend. My sister, the local, didn't seem to worry about a crowding issue.
Same goes for my brother and walking around on the few trails around Redmond or Bothell.
You missed peak season by a few months (for most trails) or weeks (for Larch Madness). In summer, it's not uncommon for cars to be blocking parts of SR 20 and US 2 because they "have" to be over the shoulder to fit their car and be within a mile of the trailhead. Towing isn't going to be a quick option in more remote areas and I have been personally blocked in by a car that parked right across a trail access road.
If you're referring to Evergreen State College, then the crowding isn't much of a problem down there. JBLM is a massive traffic wall that means a lot of the demand gets pushed east and north of Seattle into places like the Issaquah Alps, Snoqualmie River Valley, and the Mountain Loop Highway.
That being the case the problem is more you not willing to make some minor adjustments to visit the trails on the terms you are looking for. Most normal people aren't as likely bothered by having to compete with crowds (I use my wife as an exhibit) during the most desirable and peak trail hours. I don't get up super early all the time either, but if I want to out compete a crowd to get somewhere I want to visit on my terms I'll do it.
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:08:36 PM
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Looks like we were on the wrong page. In local parlance, "hiking" is almost always mountain hiking. Anything local is just a walk or trek.
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 11:16:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:08:36 PM
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Looks like we were on the wrong page. In local parlance, "hiking" is almost always mountain hiking. Anything local is just a walk or trek.
But you were originally complaining about the lack of walkable places in the suburbs...
Quote from: SP Cook on January 21, 2024, 02:03:27 PM
The correct headline is:
Quote
Some in Gen Z Is Choosing Not to Drive
Like all such sweeping pronouncements, taking a statistical change from one "generation" to another and then extrapolating this as "Generation whatever" does this or that, is just poor journalism.
And, yes, as others above have pointed out, these "this kids today, they don't want a car" stories have been out for a very long time.
True and in some cases the youngest members of Gen Z are not old enough to drive. I worked in places where some of the people starting their first job is at the older half of Gen Z it's just that we need to wait decades to find out more on how Gen Z are able to drive or not.
It's a case of if you live in the downtown portions of cities with more Public Transit then you don't need a car that much. If you live in suburban areas then a car is a must. NorCal Examples if you live in Solano County, CA yes having a car is a must but if you live in Sacramento, Davis, San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley having a car is optional.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:20:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 11:16:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:08:36 PM
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Looks like we were on the wrong page. In local parlance, "hiking" is almost always mountain hiking. Anything local is just a walk or trek.
But you were originally complaining about the lack of walkable places in the suburbs...
It was two different statements by Max that I was responding to, hence the paragraph break.
Quote from: Bruce on January 22, 2024, 12:44:56 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:20:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 11:16:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:08:36 PM
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Looks like we were on the wrong page. In local parlance, "hiking" is almost always mountain hiking. Anything local is just a walk or trek.
But you were originally complaining about the lack of walkable places in the suburbs...
It was two different statements by Max that I was responding to, hence the paragraph break.
Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 06:52:16 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 22, 2024, 12:44:56 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:20:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 11:16:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:08:36 PM
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Looks like we were on the wrong page. In local parlance, "hiking" is almost always mountain hiking. Anything local is just a walk or trek.
But you were originally complaining about the lack of walkable places in the suburbs...
It was two different statements by Max that I was responding to, hence the paragraph break.
Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.
There are not enough walkable places, just stop arguing with the party line.
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2024, 08:52:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 06:52:16 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 22, 2024, 12:44:56 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:20:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 11:16:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2024, 11:08:36 PM
Bruce seems quite choosy in the trails he wants to go on. I was talking about trails right in the suburbs and he was talking about mountain hikes on WA 20 and US 2.
I thought the discussion was about walking opportunities right in the metro/urbanized area rather than heading out on 20 or 2.
Looks like we were on the wrong page. In local parlance, "hiking" is almost always mountain hiking. Anything local is just a walk or trek.
But you were originally complaining about the lack of walkable places in the suburbs...
It was two different statements by Max that I was responding to, hence the paragraph break.
Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.
There are not enough walkable places, just stop arguing with the party line.
Going against the Party certainly has negative consequences.
I find it interesting to read this thread and to think about our relatives in Florida. My wife's brother near Miami has two kids; one is 20 and the other just turned 18 this month. The 20-year-old got his driver's license two years ago shortly after graduating from high school. He has not (at least, not yet) gone to college and needed to be able to drive in order to go to work. His sister, who will graduate from high school this year, doesn't have her learner's permit yet (her father drives her to and from school each day) but was talking about getting one because she is thinking about going to college and may well go away to school elsewhere in Florida, in which case her mother is pushing her to get a license so she can drive home when needed. The interesting thing to me is that both of them are what I would have considered immature for their age compared to anyone I knew when I was in my late teens/early 20s; the 18-year-old, for example, doesn't know how to use a knife and fork correctly, and when we were at the shopping mall a few weeks ago the only thing of her own she carried was her iPhone (tucked under her armpit) because she gave anything else of hers to her mother instead of carrying a purse or similar. I've often wondered whether overall immaturity might correlate to less interest in learning to drive. By comparison, our relatives in Fort Myers have three kids; one of them is too young to drive, one of them is approaching driving age and has his learner's permit, and the other is off at college and got his license roughly when he was first able to do so. Perhaps not coincidentally, they are all considerably more mature than the two kids near Miami (in some ways, the youngest one acts the most mature of all five of them). I've noted that the parents in Fort Myers are, in many ways, a lot more like my own parents were compared to the parents in the Miami area and they've raised kids who are generally far more independent do-it-yourself types. I'm certain that factors in as well—I just have a gut feeling that kids who are used to having their parents run their lives and do everything for them, and who don't go places on their own unsupervised, are probably less likely to take an interest in learning to drive because, to some extent, driving represents independence. (I got my driver's license on my 16th birthday, the first day I was eligible. My brother, who is two years younger than I am, got his two days after his birthday because they had changed the rules to require a form from the school and he was unaware of the rules change. But let's just say we were both very eager to get our licenses—and our mom commented that when I drove away by myself for the first time after getting my license it made her feel really sad.)
With all that said, I have a 24-year-old colleague at work who doesn't have a driver's license and that somewhat astonishes me because he's not a New Yorker. I could understand why someone who doesn't live in New York might not have a driver's license, but he lives in Indiana. He took Greyhound when he went to visit his parents in Michigan for a weekend last fall. I guess if it works for you, who am I to criticize, but I was somewhat astonished when he said how he was getting home. Part of it comes from my feeling that not getting a driver's license would severely limit your options when you travel because you won't be able to rent a car if you decide you might want to go somewhere less convenient—for example, earlier this month when we were visiting the aforementioned relatives near Miami, we decided to drive down to the Keys one day. My gut tells me that something like Uber would be godawful expensive, and likely impractical, for a trip like that. Of course, I suppose I should recognize that my colleague is 24 years old and thus probably couldn't rent a car anyway.
Thinking about it... Maybe it's the case when entire population is smarter than each individual person?
Many factors here to consider.
An elephant in the room is, certainly, is car being a luxury on a global scale. With the real-world labor productivity dropping, it may become a luxury in US as well
Second is population dynamics is changing. US switched to birth rates below replenishment rates some time around 2008. Numbers are still positive due to life expectancy growth and immigration. There are projections of population decrease coming. If anything, colleges are starting to feel population cliff - those reduced 2008 numbers become reduced numbers of college age kids. In another 10-15 years that would become reduced numbers of new home buyers - along with expiring baby boomers. Just remember, rise of suburbs coincided with doubling population between 1950 and 2013.
There is a strong push for more residential construction right now - but there is an equally strong push for higher density rather than expansion. Many places, especially both coasts with mountain ridges limiting inland growth, are simply running low on developable land (and keep in mind, land is required for agriculture as well!)
Long story short, I suspect there will be a return from spread-out suburbs to higher density urban (maybe not in the old cities, though). That would mean less commute - and likely more public transportation options.
Not learning a skill may be less than wise for young people, but usefulness of that skill may go down in relatively near future.
Labor productivity decreasing? According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 01:56:40 PM
Labor productivity decreasing? According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092
Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017: $3.98B = $5B in 2023.
There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...
Another example, maybe more relevant to a parallel "Gen Z woes" thread:
QuoteThe household median income in the U.S. in 1950 was $2,990 — roughly 40% of the median home value of $7,354 at the time, according to census data. By 2010, household median income was $49,445 — or 22% of the $221,800 median home value.
https://www.ctinsider.com/news/slideshow/How-much-the-typical-home-cost-in-your-state-in-228135.php
I really want to quote one pretty famous writer from Albany area here...
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2024, 03:21:50 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 01:56:40 PM
Labor productivity decreasing? According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092
Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017: $3.98B = $5B in 2023.
There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...
You mean bridges. They built 2 of them.
And the 'many reasons for such a difference' goes probably way beyond what most people here would know. Simple things like water runoff basins and modern end-treatments of guard/guiderails that weren't required 70 years ago will add to a project's costs today.
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2024, 03:21:50 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 01:56:40 PM
Labor productivity decreasing? According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092
Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017: $3.98B = $5B in 2023.
There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...
Another example, maybe more relevant to a parallel "Gen Z woes" thread:
QuoteThe household median income in the U.S. in 1950 was $2,990 — roughly 40% of the median home value of $7,354 at the time, according to census data. By 2010, household median income was $49,445 — or 22% of the $221,800 median home value.
https://www.ctinsider.com/news/slideshow/How-much-the-typical-home-cost-in-your-state-in-228135.php
I really want to quote one pretty famous writer from Albany area here...
Those aren't measures of labor productivity...
My Gen Z kids don't have a choice. My oldest got our '06 Odyssey with 200K on the clock, but with all of the maintenance items done, and a nice set of wheels with Michelin CrossClimate 2 tires on it. He got his permit at 14, has done over 10K miles in the driver's seat with double-digit state line crossings under his belt. He also got his first accident out of the way with a goober in a 1/2 ton Chevy totaling out our '19 Ascent by T-boning it turning on Wedington Dr. into him. He's got his license now and drives his sister and Mom to the gym a few times a week, and has an interview for his first job tomorrow to buy his gas going forward, his insurance, maintenance, tax, and pay back $3K if he keeps the van so that his 3 year younger sister gets money toward her first truck, unless he decides he wants to drive and pay for something else and she gets the van and the same deal. I don't understand parents these days giving kids a choice to just stay home and turn into phone and video game zombies. I'm going to make my house too miserable for them to want to stick around after college. They need to launch and start to adult, even if they got to get roommates for a while.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2024, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2024, 03:21:50 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 01:56:40 PM
Labor productivity decreasing? According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092
Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017: $3.98B = $5B in 2023.
There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...
You mean bridges. They built 2 of them.
And the 'many reasons for such a difference' goes probably way beyond what most people here would know. Simple things like water runoff basins and modern end-treatments of guard/guiderails that weren't required 70 years ago will add to a project's costs today.
Sure. More environmental concerns, more safety protections. Same factors also drives car costs, from airbags-related costs to electric infrastructure upgrade ones.
Bottom line, though, is that cost per mile may go up - and for this thread we can express that in terms of paid work hours of a young adult per 1000 miles of drive, for example. I am not very comfortable with the math, but looks like people on this thread generally agree. And yes, there are fewer unpaid hours of DIY involved today, but personal time is often considered "free" anyway
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2024, 03:21:50 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 01:56:40 PM
Labor productivity decreasing? According to the BLS, it's increased generally over time since at least 2013:
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/PRS85006092
Ah sure, statistics says life is good. Let's look at the road-related example, though.
Tappan Zee bridge in 1950: $81M = $1.06B in 2023
Replacement Daddy's bridge in 2017: $3.98B = $5B in 2023.
There are many reasons for such a difference, yet deliverable (bridge) is functionally similar...
Another example, maybe more relevant to a parallel "Gen Z woes" thread:
QuoteThe household median income in the U.S. in 1950 was $2,990 — roughly 40% of the median home value of $7,354 at the time, according to census data. By 2010, household median income was $49,445 — or 22% of the $221,800 median home value.
https://www.ctinsider.com/news/slideshow/How-much-the-typical-home-cost-in-your-state-in-228135.php
I really want to quote one pretty famous writer from Albany area here...
Those aren't measures of labor productivity...
Of course they are. Indirect, but very telling.
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 06:52:16 AM
Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.
Because I've lived here for a quarter-century and know from walking around the suburbs that it is a miserable experience 80% of the time. There are teeny tiny pockets of walkable neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl with little to see or do without a car. Even my county's biggest tourist attraction (the Boeing Factory Tour) starts from a museum that has zero transit access; that's how little we've put into thinking about recreation access for people without cars (often not by choice).
Quote from: Bruce on January 22, 2024, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 06:52:16 AM
Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.
Because I've lived here for a quarter-century and know from walking around the suburbs that it is a miserable experience 80% of the time. There are teeny tiny pockets of walkable neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl with little to see or do without a car. Even my county's biggest tourist attraction (the Boeing Factory Tour) starts from a museum that has zero transit access; that's how little we've put into thinking about recreation access for people without cars (often not by choice).
I would suggest seeing how things are in other metro areas. While your county isn't the best in Washington State, there are certainly way less walkable metro area in the United States. I find myself working in Snohomish County for a week every other year at biannual conferences. I'm not finding when go running that my experience replicates yours.
Also how are we defining "not by choice" regarding having access to a car? Are you referring to yourself or others?
Quote from: ZLoth on January 21, 2024, 11:47:20 AM
From Newsweek:
Gen Z Is Choosing Not to DriveQuoteGen Z, the generation born after 1997, appears to be less enamored by the prospect of driving than previous generations, according to consulting firm McKinsey, with potential implications for the future of the car industry.
This group of Americans is less likely to have a license than its older counterparts at the same age. McKinsey points out that in 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds held a license. But those numbers have dropped substantially, and by 2020, only 25 percent of 16-year-olds and 45 percent of 17-year-olds have a driver's license, the consulting firm said citing data from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tt)
I wonder how much is due to high insurance costs or the additional training and restrictions on new drivers aged 16-17 verses new drives 18 and older.
Even if they choose not to own a car, teenagers should learn to drive and get their license while still in high school. It's easier then than when they start taking on responsibilities of higher education and/or work. They may plan to live in a place where they can routinely get around by walking, biking, and public transportation, but there will come times when driving is an almost essential ability. They will be able to rent or borrow a vehicle for such things as transporting bulky items or vacationing or visiting friends or family members in locations not easily accessible by other means of transportation.
^^^^
In some states, it's easier to get your driver's license after age 18. In Virginia, for example, if you're under 18 you must take an approved behind-the-wheel course and have parental consent. If you're over 18, neither of those is required (you either take a behind-the-wheel course or hold a learner's permit for at least 60 days).
Quote from: Bruce on January 22, 2024, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2024, 06:52:16 AM
Still seems to me you may have an overly negative view of opportunities to walk around in the suburbs of Seattle.
Because I've lived here for a quarter-century and know from walking around the suburbs that it is a miserable experience 80% of the time. There are teeny tiny pockets of walkable neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl with little to see or do without a car. Even my county's biggest tourist attraction (the Boeing Factory Tour) starts from a museum that has zero transit access; that's how little we've put into thinking about recreation access for people without cars (often not by choice).
We're talking about walking, here. So, yes, walking from Bothell to the Boeing Factory would be something only a few people would do. And, "little to see or do" -- a lack of things you personally aren't interested in -- doesn't mean that there aren't opportunities to walk in the suburbs. Shoot, my brother's family walks to church every Sunday in the 'burbs. When I visit them, we go for walks together just going out his front door -- no car required.
So, although you may not want to walk in certain areas because you find them boring, doesn't mean that those areas are not walkable.
I was always of the impression that "walkable" meant "ordinary errands can be achieved by walking", and not "the sheriff shows up and shoots you in both legs if you try to walk anywhere", which seems to be closer to the definition you're going for.
When I was carless in Seattle, there were some nice places to walk or hike. Discovery Park is accessible by bus. So it Matthew's Beach. Ravenna Park is accessible though small for a long hike. The Foster Island trail and the UW Arboretum. I could go on.
If the younger generation continues to avoid car ownership, I wonder if that will lead to the return of the neighborhood little grocery store.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 21, 2024, 11:52:57 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on January 21, 2024, 11:47:20 AM
From Newsweek:
Gen Z Is Choosing Not to DriveQuoteGen Z, the generation born after 1997, appears to be less enamored by the prospect of driving than previous generations, according to consulting firm McKinsey, with potential implications for the future of the car industry.
This group of Americans is less likely to have a license than its older counterparts at the same age. McKinsey points out that in 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds held a license. But those numbers have dropped substantially, and by 2020, only 25 percent of 16-year-olds and 45 percent of 17-year-olds have a driver's license, the consulting firm said citing data from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tt)
I wonder how much is due to high insurance costs or the additional training and restrictions on new drivers aged 16-17 verses new drives 18 and older.
Also...
Uber and other rideshares didn't exist in 1997.
Older teens want something? Order via Amazon. Or UberEats. Options that also didn't exist in 1997.
Parents, who have coddled their kids to the point where kids have no clue what unstructured playtime is, have never ridden a bike around the block on their own and are called upon for their every need, continue to drive them around.
Used car prices are much higher.
From my parents (now in their 60s) I experienced way too much of the coddling and sometimes, against my own will, and always to my detriment. My mother would freak out if I played with a kid whose parents she didn't know very well. She didn't teach me to tie my own shoes when I was very young, so when I was old enough to know how to figure it out myself, I had to do that when other kids my age were already taught. Never taught how to ride a bike, believe it or not. Everything was done for me, and I mean everything. I essentially had to learn everything myself, and far older than the normal age to first do things, because younger kids obviously can't figure out everything on their own.
And she would go as far as calling the police when when she discovered what unsupervised 11-year-olds do in their free time: make disgusting, crude jokes with their friends. She saw it over Skype, refused to believe they were my friends, and insisted they were online child predators targeting me. She got them to seize my computer. She claimed flash games that I played were covert attempts to get me child trafficked.
Coddling does a kid no good! I still find myself, at the ripe old age of 21, picking up the pieces of stuff my parents did not teach me, did to me, or neglected to do as far back as when I was 4 or 5. As far as when I was 14, 15, she'd baby me through every social interaction. That is a major reason I have social anxiety now. She felt the need to accompany me to the door every time I ordered a pizza to "help" me tip the driver correctly, to remind me to open the door for people, etc. Did not do me good at all.
I was stuck in the house 24/7 till I turned 18 for many reasons, this included. So I wasn't driving anywhere much. I quite literally had nothing to do but use the computer. It was miserable.
Gen Z at large has taken life at a slower pace, for better or for worse. I have noticed the same with a lot of my peers and friends my age. Parenting is a big factor in this, and I feel like a lot of it has to do with the fearmongering, paranoid post-9/11 education and culture that this generation received, and the culture of that era we grew up in. 24/7 news, abstinence-only sex ed, DARE. Teen pregnancy is way down. DUIs are way down. (Hard) drug use is down (but weed use is up). Young people have less sex, but when they do, safe sex is up. But mental health is worse. Social interaction is down. Dependency on parents, for both systemic reasons and individually responsible reasons, is up. Financial responsibility seems to be up when gen Z gets out of the house on our own. There is a lot more concern over quality of life and labor rights, which is good, however there are certain political elements that are a little...underdeveloped or misguided.
I guess the one good thing the coddling did for me is it made me want to just get away from dependency. Get away from home. I wanted to just do my own thing but I felt trapped by that. I've been pushing myself at breakneck speeds sometimes to ensure I don't need to rely on my parents for anything, for better or for worse, it gives me both relief and stress. My mother doesn't seem to like it and tries to imply my father is disappointed that I don't go to him for help (when he's not). Most people my age in college right now still rely heavily on them and I don't very much now.
I wonder how Gen Alpha is going to turn out when they're all being raised by iPads.
I have also seen Gen Alpha described as Gen 22, that is, those who can reasonably expect to be alive to see the 22nd Century.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 29, 2024, 06:16:56 PM
I have also seen Gen Alpha described as Gen 22, that is, those who can reasonably expect to be alive to see the 22nd Century.
Wild thought that some may be among me.
Quote from: index on January 23, 2024, 08:16:28 AMFrom my parents (now in their 60s) I experienced way too much of the coddling and sometimes, against my own will, and always to my detriment. My mother would freak out if I played with a kid whose parents she didn't know very well.
I can certainly relate. When aspects of your life is criticized such as who you hang out with, where you are going, how you are dressed, how you spend your money, etc etc etc gets overly criticized, one takes the path of the introvert and doesn't trust people. I ended up retreating to the computer. Actions have consequences, and as a result, I'm unmarried with no kids.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PMQuote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PMWhen we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000. In today's world, teenagers do their homework without even using libraries and books. I recently learned from my neighbor that they've created a special website https://papersowl.com/examples/family/ (https://papersowl.com/examples/family/) where they help write essay examples about Family, here specially selected samples for each topic. I can't say if it's good or bad, but it's not like it was in my childhood.
I agree that Washington State offers plenty of opportunities for outdoor recreation, such as skiing, biking, and water sports. However, it's noticeable that the younger generation can't do without their gadgets, but honestly, I see that many older people also overuse them.
Quote from: amberjns on May 09, 2024, 01:22:57 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2024, 04:15:34 PMQuote from: Bruce on January 21, 2024, 03:50:35 PMWhen we build an utterly depressing outside for teenagers and young adults, it's no wonder they choose to socialize virtually and not in the dwindling number of third places. On top of that, the cost of a used car and its maintenance makes it hard to justify if you live in an area with half-decent alternative options. I myself am looking forward to driving far less once a big transit expansion is completed later this year.
Gen Z also has a certain segment that is foregoing smartphones/social media/etc. voluntarily. I know plenty of boomers that are pretty addicted to social media more than any Gen Z TikTokers ever are.
What is it exactly that is depressing outside in Washington State? When I was in high school in Michigan, I would have killed to have outdoor recreational activities that are available in Washington State. A huge contributing reason I moved to Arizona a week out of high school was the times I spent with my older brother while on vacation out there circa 1996-2000.
I agree that Washington State offers plenty of opportunities for outdoor recreation, such as skiing, biking, and water sports. However, it's noticeable that the younger generation can't do without their gadgets, but honestly, I see that many older people also overuse them.