AARoads Forum

Southbound CA 99 in Sacramento is signed for Fresno, bypassing nearby Stockton (population 300K), about 40-45 miles south of Sacramento.

Southbound I-57 from Chicago is signed for Memphis, though Champaign could also be a control city, given that it's home to the state's flagship university and one of the larger urban areas in Illinois. Also in Chicago, southbound I-55 is signed for St. Louis, despite passing through Illinois' state capital, Springfield. Speaking of St. Louis, I-44's control city is Tulsa, passing over Springfield, MO. I could possibly justify it because it could cause confusion with Springfield, IL, 100 miles north of St. Louis.

The most infamous one might be on I-95 in Maryland where Philadelphia is skipped in favor of New York City.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 11, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Southbound CA 99 in Sacramento is signed for Fresno, bypassing nearby Stockton (population 300K), about 40-45 miles south of Sacramento.

There's probably two factors at play here. (1) 40-45 miles is maybe a bit close for a control city.  (2) I-5 and SR 99 both go from Sacramento to Stockton.  Only 99 goes to Fresno, so it makes more sense to use that to differentiate the two routes.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 11, 2016, 11:49:44 PM
The most infamous one might be on I-95 in Maryland where Philadelphia is skipped in favor of New York City.

that I can see because most people going up and down the east coast take the Delaware Memorial bridge to the NJ turnpike.

I don't know what defines "large enough" but South Bend is passed over as a control city on the eastbound Indiana Toll Road in favor of "Ohio"

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 12, 2016, 08:08:28 AM
I don't know what defines "large enough" but South Bend is passed over as a control city on the eastbound Indiana Toll Road in favor of "Ohio"

I hate state names for control cities  :banghead:.

In MA, Lawrence used to be a control city for I-93 (mostly northbound); but now both it and Manchester, NH are passed over in favor of the more distant Concord, NH, the latter being NH's capital.

Along the YDH/128 stretch of I-95; Dedham has been passed over in favor of the less-populous Canton (where I-95 and I-93 meet) on newer southbound signs.  IMHO, Dedham should be maintained since that's where US 1 begins its long multiplex w/I-95 (then I-93 a few miles later) towards Boston.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:22:29 AMI hate state names for control cities  :banghead:.

Apparently, MUTCD does too.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:22:29 AM

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 12, 2016, 08:08:28 AM
I don't know what defines "large enough" but South Bend is passed over as a control city on the eastbound Indiana Toll Road in favor of "Ohio"

I hate state names for control cities  :banghead:.

Especially of the state in question is "Hawai'i"...LOL! 

Rick

I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 11, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Southbound I-57 from Chicago is signed for Memphis, though Champaign could also be a control city, given that it's home to the state's flagship university and one of the larger urban areas in Illinois. Also in Chicago, southbound I-55 is signed for St. Louis, despite passing through Illinois' state capital, Springfield. Speaking of St. Louis, I-44's control city is Tulsa, passing over Springfield, MO. I could possibly justify it because it could cause confusion with Springfield, IL, 100 miles north of St. Louis.

IDOT uses two levels of control cities, a primary control (long distance, can be a state), and a secondary control (a shorter control, typically within Illinois).

1. Springfield is used as a secondary control city, as are Bloomington, Joliet, and East St Louis on I-55.
2. Champaign-Urbana is also a secondary control city, as are Kankakee, Effingham, Mt Vernon, and Cairo on I-57.

The one that jumps out at me in my area is Evansville. No, I-64 does not technically go through it, but it's a destination along the route for a decent portion of traffic. Plus, it's now an intersection of two 2dis. The same logic that led to Dayton being used on I-70 could be used to add Evansville to I-64.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

I disagree. Not really anything along the route in Pennsylvania warrants that status, IMO.

I-5 north of Seattle is signed as "Vancouver, BC". Personally, I'm fine with this, but Bellingham, a city with a metro population of over 200,000 people, is rarely ever mentioned on signs. It's important to sign a border, of course, but Bellingham is a massive city to exclude from signs. Then again, it's messy to have multiple control cities, so I'd rather see Vancouver anyways.

Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 12, 2016, 02:29:28 AM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 11, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Southbound CA 99 in Sacramento is signed for Fresno, bypassing nearby Stockton (population 300K), about 40-45 miles south of Sacramento.

There's probably two factors at play here. (1) 40-45 miles is maybe a bit close for a control city.  (2) I-5 and SR 99 both go from Sacramento to Stockton.  Only 99 goes to Fresno, so it makes more sense to use that to differentiate the two routes.

Except that 5 south in Sacramento is signed for "Los Angeles" almost exclusively.  I recall there are some onramp signs for 99 south to Stockton (particularly where Stockton Boulevard/old US 50 & 99 connects with the freeway in South Sacramento) in the area though

Then again, and also in the theme of this thread...US 101 from Santa Clara south has "Los Angeles" as a control city, I'm not sure if Salinas is ever signed southbound in Santa Clara County as a matter of fact.

I-84 East: Sturbridge (and Worcester) passed over for Boston (although it ends 55 miles short of Boston), New Britain (pop. 73,000) passed over between Waterbury and Hartford.

I-95 in RI: New London, New Haven, and Bridgeport passed over for New York
I-90 (both directions in NY and MA): Springfield sometimes passed over for Albany, NY/Boston
I-495: Foxboro passed over (should be included since many people from the west use it to get to Gillette)
I-65 North from Indianapolis: Gary passed over for Chicago
I-74 West from Indianapolis: Champaign and Bloomington passed over for Peoria
I-70 West from Indianapolis: Terre Haute and all of Illinois passed over for St. Louis

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 12, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
I-74 West from Indianapolis: Champaign and Bloomington passed over for Peoria
I-70 West from Indianapolis: Terre Haute and all of Illinois passed over for St. Louis

Again, IDOT uses two levels of controls, a primary (freeway to freeway) and a secondary (every other interchange).

I-74 has Danville, Champaign-Urbana, and Bloomington as secondary controls between Indiana and Peoria.  Peoria and Indianapolis are the primary controls.
I-70 has East St Louis, Effingham, and Terre Haute as secondary controls between St Louis and Indiana.  Indianapolis and St Louis are the primary controls.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:22:29 AM

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 12, 2016, 08:08:28 AM
I don't know what defines "large enough" but South Bend is passed over as a control city on the eastbound Indiana Toll Road in favor of "Ohio"

I hate state names for control cities  :banghead:.

Other spots in the NW Indiana use a city rather than state, but the chosen city is Toledo, not South Bend. (https://goo.gl/maps/htLPYPWMey12 (https://goo.gl/maps/htLPYPWMey12)) Sure, Toledo is bigger, but it much farther away.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 12, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
I-84 East: Sturbridge (and Worcester) passed over for Boston (although it ends 55 miles short of Boston), New Britain (pop. 73,000) passed over between Waterbury and Hartford.

I'd say that's due to CT Route 9 being a better option for New Britain when coming from Hartford (via Exit39A) and CT Route 72 when coming from Waterbury (via Exit 35).

Is Yuma on I-8 large enough?  Flagstaff is a control city on I-17, so why not Yuma on I-8?  I do believe that on I-8 east of Gila Bend, the secondary city used to alternate between Gila Bend and Yuma, however, I think there may have been a signing replacement that removed all mentions of Yuma east of Gila Bend.

US 101 north of Ventura to I believe Salinas skips San Jose, opting for San Francisco.
I-5 north of Los Angeles skips over Bakersfield, opting for Sacramento. It was formerly Bakersfield (many signs on the Arroyo Seco Parkway formerly had the control city of I-5 for Bakersfield).
I-20 at I-10 uses Dallas, instead of Abilene.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 12, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
I-65 North from Indianapolis: Gary passed over for Chicago

Gary is also a shrinking city, it's not even the largest in Lake County anymore and very few people are interested in visiting it. Lafayette, also along I-65, is only a few thousand people short in population than Gary is now and could serve as a better control point, or at least a secondary control point. Otherwise, Chicago is just fine.

Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2016, 01:57:16 PM
The one that jumps out at me in my area is Evansville. No, I-64 does not technically go through it, but it's a destination along the route for a decent portion of traffic. Plus, it's now an intersection of two 2dis. The same logic that led to Dayton being used on I-70 could be used to add Evansville to I-64.

The only problem to this logic, while quite sound, is that when you drive I-70 north of Dayton you are passing through the northern suburbs of Dayton, even passing through the city for a small stretch. You can tell you are driving through the Dayton metro area, even if it's only the northern fringes of it. Meanwhile with I-64 in Evansville, you'd never notice that you are passing by Indiana's third largest city if not for the highway signs leading you onto I-69 and US 41. The development in Evansville is still roughly five miles south of the interstate. If all of Vanderburgh County gets developed than it may be an argument later.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 11, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Southbound I-57 from Chicago is signed for Memphis, though Champaign could also be a control city, given that it's home to the state's flagship university and one of the larger urban areas in Illinois. Also in Chicago, southbound I-55 is signed for St. Louis, despite passing through Illinois' state capital, Springfield. Speaking of St. Louis, I-44's control city is Tulsa, passing over Springfield, MO. I could possibly justify it because it could cause confusion with Springfield, IL, 100 miles north of St. Louis.

Finally, with Missouri. If I understand it correctly, the mention of Tulsa along I-44 is only in the St. Louis area. South of there the control city more or less reverts to Springfield all the way to that city with only few mentions of Tulsa. Traveling east along I-44 in Missouri you don't see a whole lot of St. Louis until you get to Rolla.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on April 12, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
Is Yuma on I-8 large enough?  Flagstaff is a control city on I-17, so why not Yuma on I-8?  I do believe that on I-8 east of Gila Bend, the secondary city used to alternate between Gila Bend and Yuma, however, I think there may have been a signing replacement that removed all mentions of Yuma east of Gila Bend.

I want to say Yuma is the control city starting in El Centro, CA.

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2016, 06:02:38 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 12, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
I-84 East: Sturbridge (and Worcester) passed over for Boston (although it ends 55 miles short of Boston), New Britain (pop. 73,000) passed over between Waterbury and Hartford.

I'd say that's due to CT Route 9 being a better option for New Britain when coming from Hartford (via Exit39A) and CT Route 72 when coming from Waterbury (via Exit 35).

9 and 72 are main routes through New Britain, I-84 sorta forms a western bypass of the city proper.

On I-29 south of Council Bluffs, St. Joseph gets passed up for Kansas City, at least within Iowa.  I also believe Iowa City gets passed up on I-80 for Des Moines and Davenport (depending on which way you're going, of course).

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 12, 2016, 10:03:48 PM

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2016, 06:02:38 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 12, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
I-84 East: Sturbridge (and Worcester) passed over for Boston (although it ends 55 miles short of Boston), New Britain (pop. 73,000) passed over between Waterbury and Hartford.

I'd say that's due to CT Route 9 being a better option for New Britain when coming from Hartford (via Exit39A) and CT Route 72 when coming from Waterbury (via Exit 35).

9 and 72 are main routes through New Britain, I-84 sorta forms a western bypass of the city proper.

Exactly! CT Routes 9 and 72 pass right through downtown. The only I-84 exit that comes close to being actually in New Britain is 36 - Slater Road. Even with that, the western edge of the loop ramp from I-84 West touches the Plainville town line.

We also have the Willow Brook Connector (unsigned CT Route 571). However, that's in Berlin and is really only a feeder highway into CT Route 9 south. In the other direction on the W.B.C., one would have to use CT Route 372 West then CT Route 72 West from that to reach I-84.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 12, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
I-84 East: Sturbridge (and Worcester) passed over for Boston (although it ends 55 miles short of Boston)

Sturbridge's a small town (less than 10,000 people) and nobody's headed to that crap hole that is Worcester.  Boston makes sense to me.

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 12, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
I-5 north of Los Angeles skips over Bakersfield, opting for Sacramento. It was formerly Bakersfield (many signs on the Arroyo Seco Parkway formerly had the control city of I-5 for Bakersfield).

I-5 doesn't go through Bakersfield.  US 99 did.  Caltrans believed it was confusing to sign control cities that weren't actually on the route, and eliminated most of them.

West Palm Beach and Melbourne (or Palm Bay) on I-95.

Quote from: kkt on April 13, 2016, 08:49:26 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 12, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
I-5 north of Los Angeles skips over Bakersfield, opting for Sacramento. It was formerly Bakersfield (many signs on the Arroyo Seco Parkway formerly had the control city of I-5 for Bakersfield).

I-5 doesn't go through Bakersfield.  US 99 did.  Caltrans believed it was confusing to sign control cities that weren't actually on the route, and eliminated most of them.

Excepting that they then signed San Francisco (along with Sacramento) on I-5...

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:58:18 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on April 12, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
Is Yuma on I-8 large enough?  Flagstaff is a control city on I-17, so why not Yuma on I-8?  I do believe that on I-8 east of Gila Bend, the secondary city used to alternate between Gila Bend and Yuma, however, I think there may have been a signing replacement that removed all mentions of Yuma east of Gila Bend.

I want to say Yuma is the control city starting in El Centro, CA.

Arizona does not mention Yuma (pop. over 93,000) as a control city going WB on I-8. San Diego is the control city.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:57:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Both of these are true, I believe, only at the I-95/I-85 interchange itself.

Quote from: DTComposer on April 13, 2016, 10:07:05 AM

Quote from: kkt on April 13, 2016, 08:49:26 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 12, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
I-5 north of Los Angeles skips over Bakersfield, opting for Sacramento. It was formerly Bakersfield (many signs on the Arroyo Seco Parkway formerly had the control city of I-5 for Bakersfield).

I-5 doesn't go through Bakersfield.  US 99 did.  Caltrans believed it was confusing to sign control cities that weren't actually on the route, and eliminated most of them.

Excepting that they then signed San Francisco (along with Sacramento) on I-5...

Like I say, most of them.  They kept a few of the biggest traffic generators.

Quote from: Eth on April 13, 2016, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:57:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Both of these are true, I believe, only at the I-95/I-85 interchange itself.

That sign was apparently replaced between 2014 (https://goo.gl/maps/kJsTzJu7UuR2) and 2015 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2253872,-77.3938082,3a,75y,148.91h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smqSLkP_7t_SwOl36kvfufQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1).

Quote from: DeaconG on April 13, 2016, 09:47:32 AM
West Palm Beach and Melbourne (or Palm Bay) on I-95.

West Palm Beach exists on many BGSs north of Miami-Dade County to about FL 706 for northbound traffic. Around Melbourne, sometimes "Miami" is used for I-95 South.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F375%2F19302187914_c2ba7b6d06_c.jpg&hash=aa2a7323ada1185ecd29240b85dfa0c85f3f6967) (http://flic.kr/p/vpEKZm)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2846%2F10600824935_4e89075c72_o.jpg&hash=2b829f370103635d6d9b9bc22cc24b098cc1f298) (http://flic.kr/p/h9KZVH)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F739%2F21406392478_ab9536a3d2_c.jpg&hash=f8eb1d237709eb05a94009baadc084a11a182c20) (http://flic.kr/p/yBBmGo)

Fort Lauderdale gets few mentions here (https://www.google.com/maps/@25.9263421,-80.2078056,3a,42.7y,30.89h,87.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAUSSAlM4KRBI411kqRBMGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and there (https://www.google.com/maps/@25.9414231,-80.1871554,3a,75y,85.43h,76.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8MvI7Doi90iI-sw5XD0pw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), but Melbourne, Palm Bay, and Stuart get the shaft.

I guess there's more tourism for Daytona Beach than the other three, but I think Palm Beach is just spaced a bit further apart from Miami to justify its inclusion over Fort Lauderdale (the latter of which is a larger city in a more populous county).

That middle sign needs to go in the "Poor Sign Placement" thread.

And button copy from the "larger initial cap" era? Must be one of the newest installs around.

I-90/Thruway almost never uses Rochester and Syracuse as control cities (it's always Albany and Buffalo (and Erie west of the latter)).

These (https://goo.gl/maps/UE2mAwpC3rC2) are (https://goo.gl/maps/MSa5T8mP6UF2) the only signs I know of that have Rochester as a control city, and I don't know of any that have Syracuse.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:22:29 AM

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 12, 2016, 08:08:28 AM
I don't know what defines "large enough" but South Bend is passed over as a control city on the eastbound Indiana Toll Road in favor of "Ohio"

I hate state names for control cities  :banghead:.

With I-294 in Chicago it's helpful to know if the Tri-State is gonna take you toward Indiana* or Wisconsin.  I'm willing to accept it if the states are nearby (like in a 'tri-state' metro area), or if the state doesn't really have any major cities in it.  These conditions don't happen often though.

Regarding I-57 in Illinois, signs on Interstates will point you toward Chicago or Memphis, but signs at interchanges with local roads will point you toward Champaign, Effingham, Mt Vernon, or even Kankakee. https://goo.gl/maps/TgG3rDhXEP12

Quote from: WNYroadgeek on April 14, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
I-90/Thruway almost never uses Rochester and Syracuse as control cities (it's always Albany and Buffalo (and Erie west of the latter)).

These (https://goo.gl/maps/UE2mAwpC3rC2) are (https://goo.gl/maps/MSa5T8mP6UF2) the only signs I know of that have Rochester as a control city, and I don't know of any that have Syracuse.

What's interesting is that Rochester is the control city for I-290 at I-190. Rochester can be passed up because it is bypassed enough to the south and Utica is too small for control city status. Syracuse, on the other hand, should be a control city. The Thruway passes through the heart of the metro area and actually comes closer to the Syracuse city limits than it comes to Buffalo's, albeit only a couple hundred feet closer.

I have wondered why I-87 doesn't use an intermediate control city in the Adirondacks, such as Lake George or Glens Falls, even though they are relatively small given the large tourist draw to the region and that being the departure point for traffic to Vermont. Interestingly, the control city for I-87 NB on NY 7 is Glens Falls.

Agree for New York being a control city in Ohio. There really is nothing in Pennsylvania and, once you get into Jersey, nobody cares about the suburbs you pass through.

Original Connecticut Turnpike ramp signs said "NEW YORK AND WEST" and "RHODE ISLAND AND EAST", completely bypassing all CT cities.  Today, New Haven is used heading north coming out of NYC, then New London.  No mention whatsoever of Stamford or Bridgeport, the latter being the largest city in CT. 

On I-89 NB in Vermont, Burlington, the largest city in the state, isn't even mentioned until you get to Montpelier.  South of there, 89NB uses two control cities, Barre and Montpelier, even from I-91.  I'd like to see "Montpelier/Burlington" used at least coming from 91NB.

Yup. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8344652,-73.8827658,3a,15y,32.12h,99.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skF-FlQLd0ENqq_oZ3JmOIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This sign ignores the rest of New York and almost all of New Jersey.

Gonna ignore Amish Country and West Philadelphia? (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0686314,-76.3299498,3a,17.3y,66.88h,95.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swSbd9tXG7ab-UsEaoO_o-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 15, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
Yup. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8344652,-73.8827658,3a,15y,32.12h,99.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skF-FlQLd0ENqq_oZ3JmOIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This sign ignores the rest of New York and almost all of New Jersey.

No offense, but are you even looking at a map of this area prior to typing your post?  At this location, the G.W. Bridge (and the NJ State Line) is only about 2 miles from this interchange.  While one could argue whether or not to use Newark over Trenton for the more distant city; given that Newark's not that far from the G.W. Bridge, the use of Trenton makes more sense.

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 15, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
Gonna ignore Amish Country and West Philadelphia? (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0686314,-76.3299498,3a,17.3y,66.88h,95.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swSbd9tXG7ab-UsEaoO_o-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

In all honesty, I don't believe that I've ever seen a PennDOT sign (especially a recent one) that lists West Philadelphia as a control city/destination. 

While one could argue why closer destinations like Gap, Coatesville, or Downingtown weren't used (especially since there will be frosting in hell before US 30 between Lancaster and Parkesburg becomes a freeway); the use of Philadelphia seems appropriate.

I don't consider suburbs or major cities to be appropriate, no matter how many people live there.  Use the major city's name.

Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2016, 05:06:34 PM
I don't consider suburbs or major cities to be appropriate, no matter how many people live there.  Use the major city's name.

I would add a corollary to that.  A large, important suburb is highly appropriate for a 3di or a freeway (state or US) that doesn't lead toward any major city.  Example: I-355 should be "Schaumburg", not "Rockford".

Worcester gets no love on 84 East because Boston is 40 miles beyond, but is bigger than Springfield, which being off on its own up 91 gets used as a control city.  Not an unreasonable snub, and really a big part of the story of Worcester's existence.

On I-10 eastbound from Tucson, the control city - at least in Arizona - is El Paso. Las Cruces has a population of about 100,000 in the core city, and probably 215,000 plus in Doña Ana County. It's also the junction with I-25. Coming south on I-25 from Albuquerque and north on I-10 from El Paso, Las Cruces is the control city.

But then, this is consistent with Arizona ignoring smaller, closer cities in favor of larger, more distant ones, kind of like the Yuma example.

Quote from: Brandon on April 15, 2016, 05:12:06 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2016, 05:06:34 PM
I don't consider suburbs or major cities to be appropriate, no matter how many people live there.  Use the major city's name.

I would add a corollary to that.  A large, important suburb is highly appropriate for a 3di or a freeway (state or US) that doesn't lead toward any major city.  Example: I-355 should be "Schaumburg", not "Rockford".

100% agree.  I'd like to see 355 to go the way of a lot of west coast 3di's, where they use whatever city the next interstate junction is at.  Schaumburg, Downers Grove, and Bolingbrook might make good candidates.  Idk why they just skip over all the suburbs when it's pretty much strictly a suburban expressway, in the case of I-355

Quote from: Brandon on April 15, 2016, 05:12:06 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2016, 05:06:34 PM
I don't consider suburbs or major cities to be appropriate, no matter how many people live there.  Use the major city's name.

I would add a corollary to that.  A large, important suburb is highly appropriate for a 3di or a freeway (state or US) that doesn't lead toward any major city.  Example: I-355 should be "Schaumburg", not "Rockford".

I can see some logic to "Rockford"  there since, if you look at it a certain way, I-355 almost serves as a partial outer beltway–a further-out alternative to the Tri-State Tollway.

I-264 in Kentucky gets Shively, which is a southwestern suburb of Louisville, at I-64 at the foot of the Sherman Minton Bridge. At the other I-64 interchange, the "control city" is the name of the freeway (Watterson Expressway), which I think is also the case at I-65. And I-265 gets Gene Snyder Freeway (instead of Lexington and Cincinnati at I-65, or Nashville at I-71. Once the bridge is complete, it should get Nashville and Indianapolis at I-64.

Quote from: shadyjay on April 15, 2016, 12:37:33 PM
Original Connecticut Turnpike ramp signs said "NEW YORK AND WEST" and "RHODE ISLAND AND EAST", completely bypassing all CT cities.  Today, New Haven is used heading north coming out of NYC, then New London.  No mention whatsoever of Stamford or Bridgeport, the latter being the largest city in CT. 

On I-89 NB in Vermont, Burlington, the largest city in the state, isn't even mentioned until you get to Montpelier.  South of there, 89NB uses two control cities, Barre and Montpelier, even from I-91.  I'd like to see "Montpelier/Burlington" used at least coming from 91NB.

I've always thought that the use of Montpelier AND Barre as control cities at the I-89 and 91 interchange in White River Junction was a bit weird. Even weirder is the usage of "New Hampshire/Airport" as the control cities for 89SB at that same junction where "Lebanon/Concord" would fit much better.

Of course, the same is true in New Hampshire. Manchester isn't mentioned on I-93 until you get south of Concord and is never mentioned on I-89.

Quote from: hbelkins on April 14, 2016, 09:45:26 PM
That middle sign needs to go in the "Poor Sign Placement" thread.

And button copy from the "larger initial cap" era? Must be one of the newest installs around.

I'm pretty sure I posted the first one before, but I'll double-check when I get a chance. (Edit: Fixed)

The last one dates to 1993-94. There's a rare patch of button copy in that area, compared to the rest of the state, since FDOT stopped using demountable copy for at least a decade before that. Funny you mention the raised-caps, never noticed it before...early adoption or perhaps the sign has been rehabilitated over the years.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.167924,-115.1590549,3a,15y,25.69h,96.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sq_zYT83rMf2p4pOOjK_krA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dq_zYT83rMf2p4pOOjK_krA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D30.93326%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

Excuse the long link, but this gantry skips quite a lot of cities.

The I-15 sign skips St. George.
The US 95 sign skips a whole lot of nothing. The largest town US 95 passes through to reach I-80 (to get to Reno) is Winnemucca.
The US 93 sign skips Henderson, Kingman (in Arizona), and Wickenburg.

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 17, 2016, 09:58:26 AM
The I-15 sign skips St. George.
The US 95 sign skips a whole lot of nothing. The largest town US 95 passes through to reach I-80 (to get to Reno) is Winnemucca.
The US 93 sign skips Henderson, Kingman (in Arizona), and Wickenburg.

Yeah, but the cities that they skip are much smaller and less well-known.  I think they're right to skip them.  They're passed the recommended message loading for one gantry already.

You don't pass through Winnemucca on the way to Reno. You hit I-80 just north of Fallon, then take either I-80 west to Reno or I-80 east (concurrent with 95 north) to Winnemucca.

Quote from: WNYroadgeek on April 14, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
I-90/Thruway almost never uses Rochester and Syracuse as control cities (it's always Albany and Buffalo (and Erie west of the latter)).

These (https://goo.gl/maps/UE2mAwpC3rC2) are (https://goo.gl/maps/MSa5T8mP6UF2) the only signs I know of that have Rochester as a control city, and I don't know of any that have Syracuse.

I would add Utica to the list. It was once a control city in the Syracuse area for I-481 but has since been removed.

Quote from: kkt on April 17, 2016, 11:26:41 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 17, 2016, 09:58:26 AM
The I-15 sign skips St. George.
The US 95 sign skips a whole lot of nothing. The largest town US 95 passes through to reach I-80 (to get to Reno) is Winnemucca.
The US 93 sign skips Henderson, Kingman (in Arizona), and Wickenburg.

Yeah, but the cities that they skip are much smaller and less well-known.  I think they're right to skip them.  They're passed the recommended message loading for one gantry already.

Note in this direction, there is currently an auxiliary sign for I-515/US 93/US 95 south listing Henderson and Boulder City.

Prior to the Spaghetti Bowl rebuild in the late 1990s, the northbound signs on I-15 at this location used the following:
I-15/US 93 north - North Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
US 93/US 95 south - Phoenix, Needles (Needles being on US 95)
US 95 north - Tonopah, Reno


Nevada DOT typical practice now is to just use one major city/traffic generator for control cities in the indicated direction. Many signs around the state's freeways are reducing sign loading in this manner. Thus, newer signs for US 95 north in the Las Vegas area just use "Reno" instead of the formerly common "Tonopah / Reno". This also explains the removal of "Needles" from US 93/US 95 southbound signs, in favor of just "Phoenix".

For Interstate highways, NDOT tends to use the control city listed in AASHTO's book (hence the removal of "Salt Lake" from signs on I-80 east in Reno, in favor of the much smaller "Elko").

Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 17, 2016, 07:03:13 PM
You don't pass through Winnemucca on the way to Reno. You hit I-80 just north of Fallon, then take either I-80 west to Reno or I-80 east (concurrent with 95 north) to Winnemucca.

Actually, you wouldn't take US 95 north out of Fallon if heading to Reno, as that takes you too far north and you end up backtracking southwesterly via I-80. You would take US 50 west & Alt US 50 west to Fernley, then connect to I-80 via I-80 Business in Fernley.

The Ohio Turnpike skips South Bend for Chicago west of Toledo.

I-94 skips Jackson and Kalamazoo for Chicago west of Detroit.

The other directions are kind of the same

Quote from: roadfro on April 24, 2016, 09:24:04 PM

Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 17, 2016, 07:03:13 PM
You don't pass through Winnemucca on the way to Reno. You hit I-80 just north of Fallon, then take either I-80 west to Reno or I-80 east (concurrent with 95 north) to Winnemucca.

Actually, you wouldn't take US 95 north out of Fallon if heading to Reno, as that takes you too far north and you end up backtracking southwesterly via I-80. You would take US 50 west & Alt US 50 west to Fernley, then connect to I-80 via I-80 Business in Fernley.

Since the thread was bumped, I'll belatedly reply, and I admit I oversimplified.  My main point was just that Noel listed Winnemucca as worthy town on the way to Reno... but not only is it not on the way, it's actually about 30-50 miles further from Las Vegas than Reno is.

Quote from: briantroutman on April 13, 2016, 07:46:26 PM

Quote from: Eth on April 13, 2016, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:57:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Both of these are true, I believe, only at the I-95/I-85 interchange itself.

That sign was apparently replaced between 2014 (https://goo.gl/maps/kJsTzJu7UuR2) and 2015 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2253872,-77.3938082,3a,75y,148.91h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smqSLkP_7t_SwOl36kvfufQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1).

There was still one that said Miami at Exit 50 last year. It's still on GMSV, but since I no longer work in Petersburg I never go that way anymore.

Quote from: briantroutman on April 13, 2016, 07:46:26 PM

Quote from: Eth on April 13, 2016, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:57:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Both of these are true, I believe, only at the I-95/I-85 interchange itself.

That sign was apparently replaced between 2014 (https://goo.gl/maps/kJsTzJu7UuR2) and 2015 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2253872,-77.3938082,3a,75y,148.91h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smqSLkP_7t_SwOl36kvfufQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1).

I wish they kept Miami and Atlanta on the newer signs.  :-(  This interchange, I believe, is a regionally important one.  A motorist would either be heading down the Atlantic coast or heading to the Southern region.

Quote from: WNYroadgeek on April 14, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
I-90/Thruway almost never uses Rochester and Syracuse as control cities (it's always Albany and Buffalo (and Erie west of the latter)).

These (https://goo.gl/maps/UE2mAwpC3rC2) are (https://goo.gl/maps/MSa5T8mP6UF2) the only signs I know of that have Rochester as a control city, and I don't know of any that have Syracuse.

Rochester was added about 10-12 years ago on the last signs before these.  Before, I believe the one at Exit 50 had only Albany on it and the one at Exit 53 had either Canada or Niagara Falls along with Albany.

Naturally, these are carbon copy signs.  Rochester should be listed before Albany.

I am originally from the Syracuse area and I am not butt-hurt that Syracuse is not listed as a control city.  Albany is the more logical choice.  Syracuse does get mentioned on post-interchange mileage signs.  Good enough for me.

As for something I would like to see is for Cleveland to be posted along with Erie on the westbound Thruway overheads around Buffalo.  There is enough room on those signs for the Thruway DOT to do that.

Quote from: amroad17 on June 07, 2016, 04:31:59 AM

Quote from: briantroutman on April 13, 2016, 07:46:26 PM

Quote from: Eth on April 13, 2016, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:57:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Both of these are true, I believe, only at the I-95/I-85 interchange itself.

That sign was apparently replaced between 2014 (https://goo.gl/maps/kJsTzJu7UuR2) and 2015 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2253872,-77.3938082,3a,75y,148.91h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smqSLkP_7t_SwOl36kvfufQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1).

I wish they kept Miami and Atlanta on the newer signs.  :-(  This interchange, I believe, is a regionally important one.  A motorist would either be heading down the Atlantic coast or heading to the Southern region.

So do I. I also think Charlotte should be used as the main control city with Greenville being secondary for I-85 in Atlanta at the northbound I-75/I-85 split.

Two control cities are used for the north I-75/I-285 interchange for any direction.  It should be done there in downtown Atlanta as well as at any interstate interchange along the I-285 perimeter, as long as it is leading away from Atlanta.

Examples...

       I-85 North: Greenville, Charlotte
       I-20 East: Augusta, Columbia
       I-75 South: Macon, Tampa (although it may already be on signs like this)
       I-85 South: Columbus, Montgomery

I-75 North has Chattanooga and I-20 West has Birmingham.  I cannot see adding Knoxville or even Cincinnati to I-75 North nor adding Jackson, Shreveport, or even Dallas to I-20 West.  Those locations are too far away and there are, in the case of I-75 North, other interstates that interchange and go a different way.

Quote from: amroad17 on June 07, 2016, 04:31:59 AM

Quote from: briantroutman on April 13, 2016, 07:46:26 PM

Quote from: Eth on April 13, 2016, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 12, 2016, 09:57:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Miami the control city on I-95 in Virginia or North Carolina, despite passing through Savannah and Jacksonville? I also seem to recall southbound I-85 signed as Durham/Atlanta despite passing through Charlotte.

Both of these are true, I believe, only at the I-95/I-85 interchange itself.

That sign was apparently replaced between 2014 (https://goo.gl/maps/kJsTzJu7UuR2) and 2015 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2253872,-77.3938082,3a,75y,148.91h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smqSLkP_7t_SwOl36kvfufQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1).

I wish they kept Miami and Atlanta on the newer signs.  :-(  This interchange, I believe, is a regionally important one.  A motorist would either be heading down the Atlantic coast or heading to the Southern region.

Durham/Atlanta is still on one of those signs at the I-85/95 split. The Rocky Mount NC/Miami sign no longer exists, however. Interestingly, "South Hill/Blackstone" gets more love than Durham or Atlanta, which is of limited use to most motorists.

Back in the day (changed about ten years ago), Baton Rouge was the control city for I-10 east of Beaumont. However, as soon as you crossed into Louisiana, it became Lake Charles and, after that, Lafayette, as it should have. Pics (https://www.aaroads.com/texas/i-010i_tx.html)
I would guess TxDOT realized that this was confusing and changed, maybe during the rebuild at about that same time.

I also recall there being signs for Orange on the intersecting surface roads west of Lake Charles, but I could be wrong about that.

Quote from: tdindy88 on April 12, 2016, 07:42:29 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2016, 01:57:16 PM
The one that jumps out at me in my area is Evansville. No, I-64 does not technically go through it, but it's a destination along the route for a decent portion of traffic. Plus, it's now an intersection of two 2dis. The same logic that led to Dayton being used on I-70 could be used to add Evansville to I-64.

The only problem to this logic, while quite sound, is that when you drive I-70 north of Dayton you are passing through the northern suburbs of Dayton, even passing through the city for a small stretch. You can tell you are driving through the Dayton metro area, even if it's only the northern fringes of it. Meanwhile with I-64 in Evansville, you'd never notice that you are passing by Indiana's third largest city if not for the highway signs leading you onto I-69 and US 41. The development in Evansville is still roughly five miles south of the interstate. If all of Vanderburgh County gets developed than it may be an argument later.

I agree with you somewhat on the Dayton argument, but I think a much more compelling case for getting Evansville on as a control city along 64 would be Huntsville's addition to I-65. It is over 15 miles from I-65 to downtown Huntsville on I-565, very similar to what the distance was on I-164, prior to it becoming I-69.  Both are similar size cities about the same distance from the mainline interstate.

I know Illinois uses secondary control cities, but I thought it always seemed strange that Evansville is used across Southern Illinois, but as soon as you cross into Indiana, Louisville is used.

At the I-95/I-40 interchange in Benson NC, Smithfield and Rocky Mount are used as the control cities for I-95 North, completely skipping Wilson, which is between Smithfield and Rocky Mount and is almost as big as Rocky Mount, population-wise. I'd remove Smithfield and add Wilson next to Rocky Mount since they're both bigger than Smithfield, which is basically nothing more than an overgrown truck stop, IMO.

An oddity: southbound I-75 in Florida omits Ocala as a control city, favoring Tampa instead south of Lake City, despite it being used northbound on both I-75 and the Turnpike.

I could see a case for signing either Ocala or Gainesville in both directions, as both are regionally important cities (Gainesville being home of UF; both have metro populations over 200k); then again, I could see a case for neither (avoiding regional rivalry). Wildwood would also make sense on the Lake City theory that it's a major decision point between I-75 and the Turnpike.

Quote from: LM117 on July 18, 2016, 03:31:29 PM
At the I-95/I-40 interchange in Benson NC, Smithfield and Rocky Mount are used as the control cities for I-95 North, completely skipping Wilson, which is between Smithfield and Rocky Mount and is almost as big as Rocky Mount, population-wise. I'd remove Smithfield and add Wilson next to Rocky Mount since they're both bigger than Smithfield, which is basically nothing more than an overgrown truck stop, IMO.

Ahhh, but Smithfield (well really Selma but I digress) is the next major east-west junction off I-95 North from there: US-70, and its Raleigh-coastal area connection, makes it the perfect next control point north of I-40 on I-95.

Which, if I am not mistaken, was the real reason for control points/cities in the pre-GPS era to start with.

I-80 Westbound in Solano County, Sacramento County and Yolo County does not mention Oakland as  the control city until you reach the other side of the Westbound Carquinez Bridge. Also San Francisco is a bigger control city anyways.

Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 12, 2016, 02:29:28 AM

Quote from: golden eagle on April 11, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Southbound CA 99 in Sacramento is signed for Fresno, bypassing nearby Stockton (population 300K), about 40-45 miles south of Sacramento.

There's probably two factors at play here. (1) 40-45 miles is maybe a bit close for a control city.  (2) I-5 and SR 99 both go from Sacramento to Stockton.  Only 99 goes to Fresno, so it makes more sense to use that to differentiate the two routes.

Don't forget I-5 Southbound from Natomas area they also put Los Angeles as the control city simply because its a direct route to DTLA and not Stockton for similar reasons.

Quote from: DTComposer on April 13, 2016, 10:07:05 AM

Quote from: kkt on April 13, 2016, 08:49:26 AM

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 12, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
I-5 north of Los Angeles skips over Bakersfield, opting for Sacramento. It was formerly Bakersfield (many signs on the Arroyo Seco Parkway formerly had the control city of I-5 for Bakersfield).

I-5 doesn't go through Bakersfield.  US 99 did.  Caltrans believed it was confusing to sign control cities that weren't actually on the route, and eliminated most of them.

Excepting that they then signed San Francisco (along with Sacramento) on I-5...

The real reason I-5 Says San Francisco has something to do with a connection to I-580 in Tracy. From My understanding Tracy gets counted as being part of the San Francisco Bay Area even though its in the San Joaquin Valley. 

Also in California you have Freeways that say Sacramento as a Control City even though the route never goes to Sacramento. For Example I-680 from San Jose to Fairfield say Sacramento on the Northbound lanes except the Freeway ends in Solano County as Eastbound 80 ramp. I-780 east includes Sacramento and San Jose as the control cities and its really to get people on I-680,  CA-37 Eastbound, I-405 North, I-210 west, CA-170 All have control cities to Sacramento but they point to the parent routes for that.

Quote from: hbelkins on April 16, 2016, 11:19:20 PM
I-264 in Kentucky gets Shively, which is a southwestern suburb of Louisville, at I-64 at the foot of the Sherman Minton Bridge. At the other I-64 interchange, the "control city" is the name of the freeway (Watterson Expressway), which I think is also the case at I-65. And I-265 gets Gene Snyder Freeway (instead of Lexington and Cincinnati at I-65, or Nashville at I-71. Once the bridge is complete, it should get Nashville and Indianapolis at I-64.

And at I-71.

I-75 in Florida uses Naples and skips Ft Myers which is a bigger city.

Quote from: dvferyance on July 21, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
I-75 in Florida uses Naples and skips Ft Myers which is a bigger city.

I would guess this is because Naples is the start of the tolled Alligator Alley. It's sort of like junctions being used for control cities. I-12 uses Hammond, and I-10 uses Lake City. They're major points in the roadway but are not large towns worthy of control city status.

I always liked the fact NYSDOT, uses New Haven for I-95 N Bound in New York City and Westchester County when you have to pass through Bridgeport, Connecticut's largest city, to get there.

Then you have Concord, NH used on I-93 in Boston, but Manchester is in between the two as well, and Manchester is NH's largest city which is interesting as well.

Then you have the ultimate with Norfolk over VA Beach on roads leading into the Hampton Roads area, especially along US 13 pretty much from Delaware.  You must pass through VA Beach first along US 13 before you reach Norfolk.  However Norfolk is more well known and I believe up until the early 1990's, it was larger than VA Beach in population.  Most likely because VA Beach has sprawled out so much and its land mass is far greater than Norfolk, so it would make sense to why this city has more people in it then the Navy town.

Quote from: formulanone on April 13, 2016, 08:35:24 PM

Quote from: DeaconG on April 13, 2016, 09:47:32 AM
West Palm Beach and Melbourne (or Palm Bay) on I-95.

West Palm Beach exists on many BGSs north of Miami-Dade County to about FL 706 for northbound traffic. Around Melbourne, sometimes "Miami" is used for I-95 South.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F375%2F19302187914_c2ba7b6d06_c.jpg&hash=aa2a7323ada1185ecd29240b85dfa0c85f3f6967) (http://flic.kr/p/vpEKZm)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2846%2F10600824935_4e89075c72_o.jpg&hash=2b829f370103635d6d9b9bc22cc24b098cc1f298) (http://flic.kr/p/h9KZVH)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.staticflickr.com%2F739%2F21406392478_ab9536a3d2_c.jpg&hash=f8eb1d237709eb05a94009baadc084a11a182c20) (http://flic.kr/p/yBBmGo)

Fort Lauderdale gets few mentions here (https://www.google.com/maps/@25.9263421,-80.2078056,3a,42.7y,30.89h,87.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAUSSAlM4KRBI411kqRBMGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and there (https://www.google.com/maps/@25.9414231,-80.1871554,3a,75y,85.43h,76.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8MvI7Doi90iI-sw5XD0pw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), but Melbourne, Palm Bay, and Stuart get the shaft.

I guess there's more tourism for Daytona Beach than the other three, but I think Palm Beach is just spaced a bit further apart from Miami to justify its inclusion over Fort Lauderdale (the latter of which is a larger city in a more populous county).

Daytona Beach is mentioned from West Palm Beach to the Brevard County Line where you begin to see Jacksonville as the primary control.

Its district politics that causes that as Palm Beach, Martin, St. Lucie, and Indian River Counties are in District 4 of FDOT and Brevard County (and Volusia north of it) is in District 5.  They both have different ideas on how to sign the interstate, even SB.  D5 uses Miami, but cross the Indian River County Line and West Palm Beach takes over as D4 has its own ideas completely different again.

It can be confusing as if you are following the distance signs for Miami, which are pretty much there from Jacksonville, you then have no idea how far Miami is once you reach Sebastian because the other city now dominates.  I have seen that on I-70 in MO where Columbia is listed on all the mileage signs and then all of a sudden disappears several miles before you reach the destination as "St. Louis" now takes over.  I actually thought I passed the City of Columbia, MO because the info disappeared.

What is most interesting is that on Florida's Turnpike in Fort Pierce they have I-95 signs for both Jacksonville and Miami at the SR 70 exit as that is a transfer point between the two freeways.  However, you exit the Turnpike for SR 70 and you have both Daytona Beach and West Palm Beach as the ramp control points on SR 70 itself.  Again two FDOT districts as the Turnpike, who owns its own signs, is the FTE, while SR 70 is maintained by FDOT District 4.

^ Looking back, I meant to say Okeechobee Boulevard, but opted for the route number instead...meant to say "FL 704".

There's a pull-through for Daytona Beach on the sign left of said exit on I-95 northbound.

This isn't a city per se but "Outer Banks" should be a control city on US 64 east of Raleigh. It should definitely be a control city at the I-95/US 64 junction.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 24, 2016, 11:54:55 AM
This isn't a city per se but "Outer Banks" should be a control city on US 64 east of Raleigh. It should definitely be a control city at the I-95/US 64 junction.

Sort of like Shore Points in NJ.. it is discouraged to use regions but it makes sense to me for places like the Jersey shore where there are dozens of towns

As a control city, Bridgeport makes the most sense for those on CT Route 8 heading south out of the Waterbury area. New Haven in New York City makes much more sense since:

1- It has a major interstate junction (I-95 with I-91)
2- Train connections with Amtrak and Metro North.

Philly being skipped in the D.C. Area is annoying. Also Manchester on I-93 north.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Philly being skipped in the D.C. Area is annoying.

Had your post mentioned Wilmington (DE) or even Baltimore as opposed to the "DC area"; I would agree with you.  However, since Baltimore is the next major city along I-95 north of the DC area; using it instead of Philadelphia makes logical sense.  Yes, I'm aware of one pull-through BGS along I-95 northbound in VA that lists both Baltimore & New York City on one panel but such is an exception to the more common single-control city listings on signs.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Also Manchester on I-93 north.

Already mentioned.  See Page 1, Reply #6 of this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17776.0)

Quote from: PHLBOS on April 25, 2017, 01:42:37 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Philly being skipped in the D.C. Area is annoying.

Had your post mentioned Wilmington (DE) or even Baltimore as opposed to the "DC area"; I would agree with you.  However, since Baltimore is the next major city along I-95 north of the DC area; using it instead of Philadelphia makes logical sense.  Yes, I'm aware of one pull-through BGS along I-95 northbound in VA that lists both Baltimore & New York City on one panel but such is an exception to the more common single-control city listings on signs.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Also Manchester on I-93 north.

Already mentioned.  See Page 1, Reply #6 of this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17776.0)

oops, meant in the Baltimore area.

Elmira gets skipped over on NY 17 (soon to be I-86) from Binghamton west in NY now for Corning being I-99 junctions there and the MUTCD now wants interstate junctions over the big cities inbetween.

Concord, NH over Manchester on I-93 out of Boston.  Manchester is NH's largest city too.

Petersburg, VA is left out along I-85 in NC.  Petersburg is a decent size city and its the terminus of said interstate. Richmond is used instead which is beyond it on another interstate.  Some points along I-95 in NC and VA also skip over Petersburg and go right to Richmond as well.

Quote from: roadman65 on April 25, 2017, 05:05:25 PM
Elmira gets skipped over on NY 17 (soon to be I-86) from Binghamton west in NY now for Corning being I-99 junctions there and the MUTCD now wants interstate junctions over the big cities inbetween.

Concord, NH over Manchester on I-93 out of Boston.  Manchester is NH's largest city too.

Petersburg, VA is left out along I-85 in NC.  Petersburg is a decent size city and its the terminus of said interstate. Richmond is used instead which is beyond it on another interstate.  Some points along I-95 in NC and VA also skip over Petersburg and go right to Richmond as well.

It makes sense because Petersburg is very close to Richmond and Richmond is a lot bigger.

I like my control cities large, somewhat distinct, and famous. I'm in favor of every one of these "skips."  Philly is the only case with a valid argument, but I get it because of the quirks of 95 and the Delaware Bridge/Jersey Turnpike route to NYC.

Quote from: roadman65 on April 25, 2017, 05:05:25 PM
Petersburg, VA is left out along I-85 in NC.  Petersburg is a decent size city and its the terminus of said interstate. Richmond is used instead which is beyond it on another interstate.  Some points along I-95 in NC and VA also skip over Petersburg and go right to Richmond as well.

Actually Petersburg, VA is not left out along I-85 in NC and VA and is signed as a control city as far south as the I-85/NC-147 split in Durham.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0365745,-78.9735746,3a,60y,125.03h,85.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6ZpI9rht5wfYyxMHlUpB-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0272158,-78.9396726,3a,29.9y,61.74h,92.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suPVgtOSlvfDOtR3TqJLQAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0131848,-78.8749018,3a,57.4y,70.09h,91.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssot8xNUtVlmMo6rK5sNSQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7118674,-78.1110025,3a,28.3y,327.94h,97.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKHljLrrgM_bCueBsU35Jtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I will agree however that on I-95 from as far south as Rocky Mount NC, Petersburg VA, is skipped over for more populated/important Richmond

Quote from: PHLBOS on April 25, 2017, 01:42:37 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Philly being skipped in the D.C. Area is annoying.

Had your post mentioned Wilmington (DE) or even Baltimore as opposed to the "DC area"; I would agree with you.  However, since Baltimore is the next major city along I-95 north of the DC area; using it instead of Philadelphia makes logical sense.  Yes, I'm aware of one pull-through BGS along I-95 northbound in VA that lists both Baltimore & New York City on one panel but such is an exception to the more common single-control city listings on signs.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Also Manchester on I-93 north.

Already mentioned.  See Page 1, Reply #6 of this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17776.0)

There's some merit to his "DC area" comment though. I recall seeing "NY City" used as a control city for I-95 in NoVa once, I can't remember exactly where however.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 27, 2017, 09:27:02 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on April 25, 2017, 01:42:37 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Philly being skipped in the D.C. Area is annoying.

Had your post mentioned Wilmington (DE) or even Baltimore as opposed to the "DC area"; I would agree with you.  However, since Baltimore is the next major city along I-95 north of the DC area; using it instead of Philadelphia makes logical sense.  Yes, I'm aware of one pull-through BGS along I-95 northbound in VA that lists both Baltimore & New York City on one panel but such is an exception to the more common single-control city listings on signs.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Also Manchester on I-93 north.

Already mentioned.  See Page 1, Reply #6 of this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17776.0)

There's some merit to his "DC area" comment though. I recall seeing "NY City" used as a control city for I-95 in NoVa once, I can't remember exactly where however.

95/495 in Springfield?

Bold emphasis added to the below-quote:

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 27, 2017, 09:27:02 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on April 25, 2017, 01:42:37 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Philly being skipped in the D.C. Area is annoying.

Had your post mentioned Wilmington (DE) or even Baltimore as opposed to the "DC area"; I would agree with you.  However, since Baltimore is the next major city along I-95 north of the DC area; using it instead of Philadelphia makes logical sense.  Yes, I'm aware of one pull-through BGS along I-95 northbound in VA that lists both Baltimore & New York City on one panel but such is an exception to the more common single-control city listings on signs.

There's some merit to his "DC area" comment though. I recall seeing "NY City" used as a control city for I-95 in NoVa once, I can't remember exactly where however.

This (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6740557,-77.2395997,3a,75y,55.63h,89.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ENotK5xisISSj65-Y7AA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1) is the one.  It's located at Exit 161, about 9 miles south of the I-395/495 interchange.

As previously stated (see above-quote) & to the best of my knowledge; it's the only BGS along I-95 northbound in VA that lists New York City on its primary guide & pull-through signs.  Hardly enough to make an issue over it.  Baltimore & northern MD OTOH is a different story. 

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 12:47:48 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

Yeah, but [Ridgefield Park] or [Teaneck] on the signs instead would set off an argument of its own on here.

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 12:47:48 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

I get it for the interstate junction because it is more long distance.

It's funny to see some of these towns like Yuma being passed over as control cities when some of these exist in Iowa:

US 218 and I-80- Mt. Pleasant, about 5,000 people, instead of St. Louis (which is technically not on 218 but is the quickest and most direct route from basically anywhere else in Iowa).

US 30 and I-35- Nevada (the town, not the state), about 4,000 people, instead of Marshalltown, nearly 30,000 or Cedar Rapids, about 130,000 people (and most of 30 is now 4 lanes between the two).

Chicago is mentioned in Des Moines on I-80 about as much as Davenport, despite being an entire state away.

Omaha is replacing Council Bluffs on a few signs in Des Moines as well, notably the 80/35 West Mixmaster. Also, I noticed in MO that 29 north of KC almost always mention St. Joe but 29 south of Council Bluffs in Iowa never do and mention KC instead.

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 12:47:48 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

Not that unusual. Boston is the control city for I-84 west of Hartford, CT and it doesn't go anywhere near there, it just connects to the Mass Pike, which connects to Boston.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 03, 2017, 11:55:54 PM

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 12:47:48 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

Not that unusual. Boston is the control city for I-84 west of Hartford, CT and it doesn't go anywhere near there, it just connects to the Mass Pike, which connects to Boston.

What would you use instead of Boston? Sturbridge?

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 03, 2017, 11:55:54 PMNot that unusual. Boston is the control city for I-84 east of Hartford, CT and it doesn't go anywhere near there, it just connects to the Mass Pike, which connects to Boston.

FTFY.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 04, 2017, 01:15:14 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 03, 2017, 11:55:54 PMNot that unusual. Boston is the control city for I-84 east of Hartford, CT and it doesn't go anywhere near there, it just connects to the Mass Pike, which connects to Boston.

FTFY.

Sorry - temporary bout of confusion.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 04, 2017, 07:58:48 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 03, 2017, 11:55:54 PM

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 12:47:48 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

Not that unusual. Boston is the control city for I-84 west of Hartford, CT and it doesn't go anywhere near there, it just connects to the Mass Pike, which connects to Boston.

What would you use instead of Boston? Sturbridge?

That would be the only other option. I think that it's important to remember the point of control cities, they're meant to guide you towards your destination. For I-84 eastbound traffic, Boston is almost certainly going to be more helpful than Sturbridge.

Yes.  It's a lot more likely that people going to Sturbridge can figure out that the route posted to Boston will take them there, than that people going to Boston can figure out that the route posted to Sturbridge will take them there.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 04, 2017, 07:58:48 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 03, 2017, 11:55:54 PM

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 12:47:48 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 12, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
I feel as though I-80 in Ohio passes over a ton of "large enough cities" when it signs New York City as a control city.

Especially when I-80 technically doesn't even go to NYC.

Not that unusual. Boston is the control city for I-84 west of Hartford, CT and it doesn't go anywhere near there, it just connects to the Mass Pike, which connects to Boston.

What would you use instead of Boston? Sturbridge?

Worcester :confused:

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 01:32:29 PM
It's funny to see some of these towns like Yuma being passed over as control cities when some of these exist in Iowa:

US 218 and I-80- Mt. Pleasant, about 5,000 people, instead of St. Louis (which is technically not on 218 but is the quickest and most direct route from basically anywhere else in Iowa).

US 30 and I-35- Nevada (the town, not the state), about 4,000 people, instead of Marshalltown, nearly 30,000 or Cedar Rapids, about 130,000 people (and most of 30 is now 4 lanes between the two).

Chicago is mentioned in Des Moines on I-80 about as much as Davenport, despite being an entire state away.

Omaha is replacing Council Bluffs on a few signs in Des Moines as well, notably the 80/35 West Mixmaster. Also, I noticed in MO that 29 north of KC almost always mention St. Joe but 29 south of Council Bluffs in Iowa never do and mention KC instead.

For the most part, intersections between interstates and non-interstates are generally going to use local destinations as per MUTCD guidelines (nearest town or community on either side of the exit) as opposed to true control cities, which are intended to be major cities or the locations of interstate junctions (Wytheville, Va., anyone?) Often, a distant larger city will be posted as an auxiliary destination, but that's not always the case. The example I've used elsewhere is I-64 at US 23. It's signed for Louisa and Ashland, with Catlettsburg (the county seat of Boyd County) as an auxiliary. US 23 could reasonably be signed for several other distant towns/cities such as Chillicothe and Portsmouth to the north and Pikeville, Kingsport, Johnson City or even Asheville to the south. Yet the local towns are used.

Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

Manchester NH?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2017, 08:01:34 AM

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

Manchester NH?

In Massachusetts, Manchester NH is skipped and shouldn't be, but it's only slightly above 100000 people, so it's not on the top 10 list.

Quote from: 1 on May 05, 2017, 09:08:33 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2017, 08:01:34 AM

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

Manchester NH?

In Massachusetts, Manchester NH is skipped and shouldn't be, but it's only slightly above 100000 people, so it's not on the top 10 list.

The size of those suburbs are a lot bigger than I thought.

Quote from: WhitePoleRD on May 03, 2017, 01:32:29 PM
It's funny to see some of these towns like Yuma being passed over as control cities when some of these exist in Iowa:

US 218 and I-80- Mt. Pleasant, about 5,000 people, instead of St. Louis (which is technically not on 218 but is the quickest and most direct route from basically anywhere else in Iowa).

US 30 and I-35- Nevada (the town, not the state), about 4,000 people, instead of Marshalltown, nearly 30,000 or Cedar Rapids, about 130,000 people (and most of 30 is now 4 lanes between the two).

Those control cities date back to when most of US 30 and US 218 were still two lanes. Another example is US 61 at I-80, which list Eldridge and De Witt (both of which have around 5,000 people apiece) instead of Dubuque, which is more than ten times larger -- but signage at that interchange dates back from when the four-lane ended at De Witt.

I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 24, 2017, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Not the largest cities, but it skims Willimantic, and cuts through Danielson. I was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 11:05:54 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 24, 2017, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Not the largest cities, but it skims Willimantic, and cuts through Danielson. I was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

The listing of Providence for I-384 eastbound dates back to when I-84 was originally planned to use that corridor and extend to Providence (the current I-84 east of there was I-86). 

Even though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 11:05:54 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 24, 2017, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Not the largest cities, but it skims Willimantic, and cuts through Danielson. I was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

The listing of Providence for I-384 eastbound dates back to when I-84 was originally planned to use that corridor and extend to Providence (the current I-84 east of there was I-86). 

Even though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

The oddest thing; at the end, US 6 has the control cities of Willimantic and Providence, while US 44 has the control cites of Coventry and Mansfield. Those are used instead of Putnam, or any other major town.
It also uses UCONN in some signage.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 11:05:54 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 24, 2017, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Not the largest cities, but it skims Willimantic, and cuts through Danielson. I was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

The listing of Providence for I-384 eastbound dates back to when I-84 was originally planned to use that corridor and extend to Providence (the current I-84 east of there was I-86). 

Even though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

I think I recall Ct 101 being quicker, but I might be wrong.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 25, 2017, 09:39:45 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AMEven though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

I think I recall Ct 101 being quicker, but I might be wrong.

One needs to use US 44 in order to get from I-384 to CT 101.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 10:07:54 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 25, 2017, 09:39:45 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AMEven though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

I think I recall Ct 101 being quicker, but I might be wrong.

One needs to use US 44 in order to get from I-384 to CT 101.

CT 101 is actually just slightly slower than US 6. At least without traffic.

Quote from: JJBers on May 25, 2017, 10:13:11 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 10:07:54 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 25, 2017, 09:39:45 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AMEven though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

I think I recall Ct 101 being quicker, but I might be wrong.

One needs to use US 44 in order to get from I-384 to CT 101.

CT 101 is actually just slightly slower than US 6. At least without traffic.

Google maps says one min faster to take Ct 101 when I found directions at 8-9ish am.

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 11:05:54 PMI was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

You mean like in Metro Detroit?

I-696 uses Port Huron and Lansing - you've got a good number of miles past the end of I-696 to get to either.

I-275 is even worse.  Toledo SB, OK, again there's a number of miles before you get there.  NB it uses Flint - not only is that a distance away from the end at Novi/Farmington, you have to take 2 other highways to get to Flint from there.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 25, 2017, 02:34:46 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 25, 2017, 10:13:11 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 10:07:54 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 25, 2017, 09:39:45 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AMEven though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

I think I recall Ct 101 being quicker, but I might be wrong.

One needs to use US 44 in order to get from I-384 to CT 101.

CT 101 is actually just slightly slower than US 6. At least without traffic.

Google maps says one min faster to take Ct 101 when I found directions at 8-9ish am.

Huh...I think it might be just a tiny difference then.

Quote from: GaryV on May 25, 2017, 05:54:26 PM
I-696 uses Port Huron and Lansing

I-275 is even worse.  Toledo SB, NB it uses Flint

Perhaps "Flint"  is a remnant of the original plan to connect I-275 with I-75 between Pontiac and Flint? If that link had been built, Flint would make sense.

Flint notwithstanding, this is the correct way to do it as far as I'm concerned. Ohio follows a similar practice: For example, I-675 around Dayton is signed Cincinnati southbound and Columbus northbound.

I'd rather see this practice used in my area. I-476 should be signed Wilmington southbound and Allentown northbound, not Plymouth Meeting and Chester.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 11:05:54 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 24, 2017, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Not the largest cities, but it skims Willimantic, and cuts through Danielson. I was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

The listing of Providence for I-384 eastbound dates back to when I-84 was originally planned to use that corridor and extend to Providence (the current I-84 east of there was I-86). 

Even though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

And Providence should still be the control city as that's the most direct route to take from that point on I-84.  Whether you take US 6 or US 44 to CT 101 I don't care. 

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 25, 2017, 11:11:13 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:24:41 AM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 11:05:54 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 24, 2017, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: JJBers on May 24, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that I-384 skips over a lot of control cities for Providence, which is nearly 60 miles away.

What city of importance is skipped over?

Not the largest cities, but it skims Willimantic, and cuts through Danielson. I was really calling out the fact that it uses a control city that the highway ends nowhere near.

The listing of Providence for I-384 eastbound dates back to when I-84 was originally planned to use that corridor and extend to Providence (the current I-84 east of there was I-86). 

Even though the extension has long since canned; the continued usage of Providence is justified because I-384 to US 6 is the most direct route to between the two metropolitan areas.

And Providence should still be the control city as that's the most direct route to take from that point on I-84.  Whether you take US 6 or US 44 to CT 101 I don't care.

Maybe say both ways go there.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 25, 2017, 06:39:16 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 25, 2017, 05:54:26 PM
I-696 uses Port Huron and Lansing

I-275 is even worse.  Toledo SB, NB it uses Flint

Perhaps "Flint"  is a remnant of the original plan to connect I-275 with I-75 between Pontiac and Flint? If that link had been built, Flint would make sense.

Flint notwithstanding, this is the correct way to do it as far as I'm concerned. Ohio follows a similar practice: For example, I-675 around Dayton is signed Cincinnati southbound and Columbus northbound.

I'd rather see this practice used in my area. I-476 should be signed Wilmington southbound and Allentown northbound, not Plymouth Meeting and Chester.

I have always thought that I-476 should be signed for Allentown and Scranton northbound.  Allentown would be overlayed over Plymouth and Scranton overlayed over Meeting--or a new sign could be put up.  Southbound, Chester is OK, but at the I-76/I-476 interchange, Wilmington should be mentioned.

In SLC, the I-15 south control is Las Vegas. IMO, if you're going to use Ogden for 15 north, you should use Provo for 15 south. (In fact, Provo is used for the 215 west belt.) And past there, St George should be used since that metro area actually has a population of 156K.

Quote from: amroad17 on May 30, 2017, 10:05:32 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on May 25, 2017, 06:39:16 PMI'd rather see this practice used in my area. I-476 should be signed Wilmington southbound and Allentown northbound, not Plymouth Meeting and Chester.

I have always thought that I-476 should be signed for Allentown and Scranton northbound.  Allentown would be overlayed over Plymouth and Scranton overlayed over Meeting--or a new sign could be put up.  Southbound, Chester is OK, but at the I-76/I-476 interchange, Wilmington should be mentioned.

It's worth noting that prior to I-476 opening south of I-76; the original signage for northbound 476 at the I-76/PA 23 interchange either had or was planned to use Allentown for a control city (and this was long before the Northeast Extension of the Turnpike part of I-476).

Photo showing 476 NORTH Allentown pull-through BGS on the left (note: ironically, this BGS was removed when the highway fully opened in late 1991):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pennways.com%2FI476_INT_C_N1.jpg&hash=9e539602b933d910589c3d4c6753c6609936bea6)

This old BGS, which is still there to this day (with replacement shields), was likely planned to have Allentown (in button-copy letters) added on once I-476 was extended to I-276 but never did.
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/pennsylvania999/matsonford_rd_wb_at_i-076_wb_476_nb.jpg)

This long-gone/replaced BGS originally had Allentown briefly listed but was years later replaced with the odd-looking Plymouth Mtg. non-button-copy letters.  If one looked very closely at this BGS out in the field, one could see ghostings of the former lettering.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2127/1653841717_077c705e37_z.jpg)

Quote from: roadguy2 on May 30, 2017, 11:30:17 PM
In SLC, the I-15 south control is Las Vegas. IMO, if you're going to use Ogden for 15 north, you should use Provo for 15 south. (In fact, Provo is used for the 215 west belt.) And past there, St George should be used since that metro area actually has a population of 156K.

However, Las Vegas is a much bigger city than everything in Idaho or Montana.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2017, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: roadguy2 on May 30, 2017, 11:30:17 PM
In SLC, the I-15 south control is Las Vegas. IMO, if you're going to use Ogden for 15 north, you should use Provo for 15 south. (In fact, Provo is used for the 215 west belt.) And past there, St George should be used since that metro area actually has a population of 156K.

However, Las Vegas is a much bigger city than everything in Idaho or Montana.

These places are in Utah.

Quote from: 1 on May 31, 2017, 02:50:11 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2017, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: roadguy2 on May 30, 2017, 11:30:17 PM
In SLC, the I-15 south control is Las Vegas. IMO, if you're going to use Ogden for 15 north, you should use Provo for 15 south. (In fact, Provo is used for the 215 west belt.) And past there, St George should be used since that metro area actually has a population of 156K.

However, Las Vegas is a much bigger city than everything in Idaho or Montana.

These places are in Utah.

Yeah. But I-15 passed over cities in Utah like Provo and St. George in favor of much larger Las Vegas. Northbound, you'd hypothetically pass over Ogden for what, Pocatello? Boise? But that's on I-84 so probably not. Ogden is as good a choice as any northbound, since it's just as significant as something like Pocatello, Idaho Falls, or anything in Montana.

Travelling EB this week through Wheeling, WV, I saw the control city "Washington, PA".  Ironically, you'd use I-70 most of the way to Washington, DC as well.

Quote from: GaryV on May 31, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Travelling EB this week through Wheeling, WV, I saw the control city "Washington, PA".  Ironically, you'd use I-70 most of the way to Washington, DC as well.

You see the same thing on I-95 at the US 64 interchange in North Carolina. The control city for US 64 is "Nashville" (with no state). While you do use US 64 to get to Nashville, NC from there, you would go that way to connect with I-40 to go on to Nashville, TN.

In regard to the "control cities not directly on a highway" idea, I always liked the idea of the British practice–to my knowledge no longer done–of placing indirect control cities in parentheses. So, heading eastbound toward the end of I-80, you could have something like "Teaneck, (New York City)" to indicate that you'll have to switch highways before getting there, but this is the best route to NYC.

I also like the practice some states use of using two control cities, a more local one (county seat level or so) and a more distant one.

Quote from: GaryV on May 31, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Travelling EB this week through Wheeling, WV, I saw the control city "Washington, PA".  Ironically, you'd use I-70 most of the way to Washington, DC as well.

They should just have the sign saying "Both Washington cities. (Take a u-turn to get to Washington state.)"

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2017, 11:25:29 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 31, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Travelling EB this week through Wheeling, WV, I saw the control city "Washington, PA".  Ironically, you'd use I-70 most of the way to Washington, DC as well.

They should just have the sign saying "Both Washington cities. (Take a u-turn to get to Washington state.)"

I-68 may be a better option to get to DC for some traffic.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 01, 2017, 01:11:19 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2017, 11:25:29 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 31, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Travelling EB this week through Wheeling, WV, I saw the control city "Washington, PA".  Ironically, you'd use I-70 most of the way to Washington, DC as well.

They should just have the sign saying "Both Washington cities. (Take a u-turn to get to Washington state.)"

I-68 may be a better option to get to DC for some traffic.

You would still take I-70 for part of the route.

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

I believe Aurora is used on I-88 WB at the I-290/I-294 interchange.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2017, 11:25:29 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 31, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Travelling EB this week through Wheeling, WV, I saw the control city "Washington, PA".  Ironically, you'd use I-70 most of the way to Washington, DC as well.

They should just have the sign saying "Both Washington cities. (Take a u-turn to get to Washington state.)"

And who could possibly be confused by that  :-D

Quote from: webny99 on May 31, 2017, 11:27:45 PM
The NYS thruway skips Syracuse in favor of Albany and Buffalo  :confused:

That's perfectly fine.  Syracuse isn't the city it used to be around 1960 (pop. 210,000 then, 147,000 now).  Having Albany and Buffalo for control cities are correct.  Those are the two cities where the Thruway turns (south toward New York/southwest toward Erie and Cleveland).  At least Syracuse and Utica are mentioned on post-interchange mileage signs.

As an aside, I would like to see Cleveland added to the I-90 WEST pull-through signs around Buffalo, at Exits 53, 54, and 55.
                                                                                    Erie

Quote from: dvferyance on June 01, 2017, 11:39:53 AM

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

I believe Aurora is used on I-88 WB at the I-290/I-294 interchange.

Aurora, CO (Denver suburb)

Quote from: sandwalk on June 02, 2017, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: dvferyance on June 01, 2017, 11:39:53 AM

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

I believe Aurora is used on I-88 WB at the I-290/I-294 interchange.

Aurora, CO (Denver suburb)

That's not true either. Aurora CO is used for I-225. I am also sure Va Beach is used somewhere on I-64.

I'm trying to think of any in Michigan.

I-69 uses Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne, all of which are legit.

I-75 uses Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie, all are legit.

I-94 uses Port Huron, Detroit and Chicago. Now this might be where I have found one, Chicago is used from Detroit on west at major interchanges while smaller Michigan towns are used at other interchanges. Going west from Detroit I would think it should be Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Benton Harbor, then Chicago.

I-96 uses Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Lansing and Detroit, all are legit.

Quote from: dvferyance on June 10, 2017, 07:54:30 PM

Quote from: sandwalk on June 02, 2017, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: dvferyance on June 01, 2017, 11:39:53 AM

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

I believe Aurora is used on I-88 WB at the I-290/I-294 interchange.

Aurora, CO (Denver suburb)

That's not true either. Aurora CO is used for I-225. I am also sure Va Beach is used somewhere on I-64.

Virginia Beach is pretty heavily used on I-64, I-264, I-664 (in Suffolk), I-95 (for US 460), and I-295 as a second control city following Norfolk. The Virginia Beach Oceanfront district is used on I-264.

Quote from: jaehak on April 26, 2017, 12:38:06 PM
I like my control cities large, somewhat distinct, and famous. I'm in favor of every one of these "skips."  Philly is the only case with a valid argument, but I get it because of the quirks of 95 and the Delaware Bridge/Jersey Turnpike route to NYC.

I know I'm replying to an old post, but how do the quirks of I-95 justify not signing Philadelphia going North? I-95 goes to Philadelphia as much as it (or a route that splits from it) goes to New York.

NC is the worst for having skippable control cities. Control cities should either be notable cities or where major intersections are.

I-95's control cities in NC should be:

Rocky Mount (Future I-87)
Benson (I-40)
Fayetteville
Lumberton (I-74)

If I were NC DOT, I'd sign Florence (I-20) south of Lumberton and Richmond north of Rocky Mount.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 10, 2017, 02:55:09 PM
NC is the worst for having skippable control cities. Control cities should either be notable cities or where major intersections are.

I-95's control cities in NC should be:

Rocky Mount (Future I-87)
Benson (I-40)
Fayetteville
Lumberton (I-74)

If I were NC DOT, I'd sign Florence (I-20) south of Lumberton and Richmond north of Rocky Mount.

I never understood Henderson or Oxford on I-85 between Durham and Petersburg, honestly. If NCDOT's going to do that they might as well sign South Hill north of Henderson (instead of Richmond).

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on August 10, 2017, 09:44:25 AM

Quote from: dvferyance on June 10, 2017, 07:54:30 PM

Quote from: sandwalk on June 02, 2017, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: dvferyance on June 01, 2017, 11:39:53 AM

Quote from: DTComposer on May 04, 2017, 11:47:03 PM
Just as a reference, here are the 10 largest cities that are not on the AASHTO list of control cities:
1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745)
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267)
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407)
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)

All of these make sense as they are either not on a 2di and/or are suburbs and/or are in the shadow of larger/better-known cities. A case could be made for Anaheim, since it is on I-5 and a significant tourist destination - but Santa Ana is the choice of AASHTO.

I also noted that the list, which has always included some of the longer 3dis, now has I-405 SB on the list with San Diego/Irvine. That combo is only signed just south of I-605 (relatively new signage), and the list doesn't include all the other cities that are used as controls (Sacramento, Santa Monica, LAX Airport, Long Beach).

http://scote.transportation.org/Pages/Interstate-Control-Cities.aspx

I believe Aurora is used on I-88 WB at the I-290/I-294 interchange.

Aurora, CO (Denver suburb)

That's not true either. Aurora CO is used for I-225. I am also sure Va Beach is used somewhere on I-64.

Virginia Beach is pretty heavily used on I-64, I-264, I-664 (in Suffolk), I-95 (for US 460), and I-295 as a second control city following Norfolk. The Virginia Beach Oceanfront district is used on I-264.

I think we need to distinguish between what is listed on the control cities list (https://cote.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/) and what is actually signed on BGSes by the highway depts.  AASHTo's list is primarily for the 2dis and the longest 3dis, so many 3dis are omitted.  Many of these large cities posted by DTComposer are not even located on 2dis so it is a non-issue.  So while these cities may not be on AASHTO's list, they are clearly not forgotten in terms of being signed on BGSes for 3dis, US, and state highways and on mileage signs, where appropriate.

1. San Jose (#10 - 1,026,908)  Definitely used on US 101, I-280, I-680, I-880 and several other roads
2. Fresno (#34 - 520,052)         Not on the interstate system.  Occasional signs do exist on CA 99, but most of CA 99 has LA and Sac as controls on BGS
3. Long Beach (#37 - 474,140)  Used on I-405 and I-710.
4. Mesa (#38 - 471,825)  US 60 freeway
5. Virginia Beach (#41 - 452,745) I-264
6. Oakland (#45 - 419,267) I-580, I-880, CA 24
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)  Don't recall seeing on a sign, but it is very close to DC
8. Bakersfield (#52 - 373,640)  See response to Fresno.  Bak used to be the I-5 control in the LA area but was replaced with Sac because I-5 doesn't go directly there.  If I-5 were routed along the 99 instead of along the western SJ valley, BAk and Fresno would be full-fledged control cities, most definitely.
9. Aurora (#54 - 359,407) I-225
10. Anaheim (#56 - 350,742)  Some guide signs for CA-55.  IMO it should be on CA-91 as well.   But it is too close to Santa Ana so I would not put it for use on I-5 or CA-57 or CA-22.  I believe Santa Ana was bigger when these freeways were first laid out so Santa Ana beat Anaheim, even though Anaheim would be more helpful to more tourists because of Disneyland, conv center, and sports stadium and arena.

Quote from: mrsman on September 08, 2017, 05:49:37 PM
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)  Don't recall seeing on a sign, but it is very close to DC

Texas. DFW.

Quote from: golden eagle on April 11, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Southbound CA 99 in Sacramento is signed for Fresno, bypassing nearby Stockton (population 300K), about 40-45 miles south of Sacramento.

Southbound I-57 from Chicago is signed for Memphis, though Champaign could also be a control city, given that it's home to the state's flagship university and one of the larger urban areas in Illinois. Also in Chicago, southbound I-55 is signed for St. Louis, despite passing through Illinois' state capital, Springfield. Speaking of St. Louis, I-44's control city is Tulsa, passing over Springfield, MO. I could possibly justify it because it could cause confusion with Springfield, IL, 100 miles north of St. Louis.

Stockton is bypassed as a control city on both CASR-99 and I-5 in Sacramento. If CalTrans doesn't have some rule against primarily signing the same destinations on two different route that are just a couple km apart, it should.

Quote from: amroad17 on June 02, 2017, 12:50:47 AM

Quote from: webny99 on May 31, 2017, 11:27:45 PM
The NYS thruway skips Syracuse in favor of Albany and Buffalo  :confused:

That's perfectly fine.  Syracuse isn't the city it used to be around 1960 (pop. 210,000 then, 147,000 now).  Having Albany and Buffalo for control cities are correct.  Those are the two cities where the Thruway turns (south toward New York/southwest toward Erie and Cleveland).  At least Syracuse and Utica are mentioned on post-interchange mileage signs.

As an aside, I would like to see Cleveland added to the I-90 WEST pull-through signs around Buffalo, at Exits 53, 54, and 55.
                                                                                    Erie

Agreed with Cleveland as a second control city (along with Erie) anywhere along I-90 West from I-290 to the PA border.   Also would like to see Toronto as a second control city (in addition to Niagara Falls) for Thruway Exit 50 (I-290) westbound and Exit 53 (I-190) Eastbound, as well as from other connecting highways and parkways along I-190 from I-290 to the Canadian border.  Montreal is used on I-87, so why not Toronto?

Del water gap on I-80 in new jersey.

On I-795 in Wilson, NC, Wilmington should be used as a control city, not Kenly. Anybody wanting to go to Kenly from US-264 would've used I-95.

https://goo.gl/maps/VnaBWQd17JT2 (https://goo.gl/maps/VnaBWQd17JT2)

Since I-795 serves as a shortcut to Wilmington, it should be signed as such, especially at an important junction like this.

In New Jersey on the mileage signs for NB I-295 pass over Trenton for Ewing.  Trenton is the primary control city (on ramps that list control cities anyway as many ramps just get shield only signs) yet does not get mention on the signs of mileage reference at all.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 09, 2017, 04:16:01 AM
In New Jersey on the mileage signs for NB I-295 pass over Trenton for Ewing.  Trenton is the primary control city (on ramps that list control cities anyway as many ramps just get shield only signs) yet does not get mention on the signs of mileage reference at all.

I'll bet that Philadelphia and I-95 has been mentioned numerous times in this thread.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 09, 2017, 04:16:01 AM
In New Jersey on the mileage signs for NB I-295 pass over Trenton for Ewing.  Trenton is the primary control city (on ramps that list control cities anyway as many ramps just get shield only signs) yet does not get mention on the signs of mileage reference at all.

I am sure someone will point out 295 never enters Trenton city limits and Ewing is more appropriate... I agree Trenton should be used

LGMS428

Quote from: noelbotevera on April 12, 2016, 07:40:37 PM
US 101 north of Ventura to I believe Salinas skips San Jose, opting for San Francisco.
I-5 north of Los Angeles skips over Bakersfield, opting for Sacramento. It was formerly Bakersfield (many signs on the Arroyo Seco Parkway formerly had the control city of I-5 for Bakersfield).
I-20 at I-10 uses Dallas, instead of Abilene.

"Bakersfield" made perfect sense when I-5 was CASR-99 and until about 1981 when I-5 was finally completed between Sacramento and Stockton. Bakersfield isn't even on I-5, but it was the only city other than San Francisco available from I-5. ... and almost any road you take north or west from the LA area will get you to San Francisco, so signing "San Francisco" in LA isn't useful. Once I-5 was completed to Sacramento, "Sacramento" was the only logical choice.

Davis, CA it's on I-80 but does not show as a control city due to Sacramento getting priority as the control city because its the State capitol of California. Or Westbound I-80  Davis, CA does not appear as a control city because San Francisco takes hold for control city on I-80.

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
Davis, CA it's on I-80 but does not show as a control city due to Sacramento getting priority as the control city because its the State capitol of California. Or Westbound I-80  Davis, CA does not appear as a control city because San Francisco takes hold for control city on I-80.

Is Davis really that big?

Quote from: Beltway on September 09, 2017, 09:08:05 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 09, 2017, 04:16:01 AM
In New Jersey on the mileage signs for NB I-295 pass over Trenton for Ewing.  Trenton is the primary control city (on ramps that list control cities anyway as many ramps just get shield only signs) yet does not get mention on the signs of mileage reference at all.

I'll bet that Philadelphia and I-95 has been mentioned numerous times in this thread.

Yet at one time Philadelphia was used as US 40's EB control city along Pulaski Highway between Baltimore and Elkton.  US 40 don't go to Philly, but I am guessing that it was used because before I-95 it both US 40 and US 13 offered a better travel (mostly 4 lanes compared to 2 lanes on US 1 between Bel Air and the PA line, and previously to Kennett Square before the Oxford- Kennett Square Bypass).

One city that gets passed over (not exactly over but more like passed under) is Allentown on I-78 out of Newark, NJ.  Most newer signs especially at I-287 use Easton when its a small city compared to the much larger Allentown only 15 miles behind her.  Easton was used because before PennDOT finally built their missing link through Lehigh Valley in the late 80's, I-78 ended in Greenwich, NJ where traffic then used US 22 which enters Easton directly after leaving NJ.  At that time Easton was the appropriate designation as that was a big enough city as the defacto routing took you there first.  Now I-78 just nicks Easton and gets you to Allentown faster, it should be reconsidered.  After all Allentown is PA's third largest city and now connects with N-S I-476 in its vicinity, which makes it more worthy to be a control city than Easton.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 11, 2017, 09:03:12 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
Davis, CA it's on I-80 but does not show as a control city due to Sacramento getting priority as the control city because its the State capitol of California. Or Westbound I-80  Davis, CA does not appear as a control city because San Francisco takes hold for control city on I-80.

Is Davis really that big?

No, it is a mid-sized farm town, much smaller than Sacramento or Oakland.  It has a UC campus.  No reason for it to be a control city.

As far as Yuma not being included as a control city, there aren't really a lot of significant towns between Casa Grande and Yuma other than Gila Bend.  Yuma occasionally appears on the second row of distance signs between Casa Grande and Gila Bend, so I am not sure if Yuma is really usable as a control city west of Casa Grande, unless they decide to make all of the distance signs list only two cities and exclude San Diego.

Quote from: 1 on September 08, 2017, 05:52:30 PM

Quote from: mrsman on September 08, 2017, 05:49:37 PM
7. Arlington (#50 - 388,125)  Don't recall seeing on a sign, but it is very close to DC

Texas. DFW.

Ok.  To close to Dallas and fort Worth so no need for a control on 20 or 30.  It is a control on some n-s freeways in the area.

Quote from: Flint1979 on August 10, 2017, 02:16:03 AM
I'm trying to think of any in Michigan.

I-69 uses Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne, all of which are legit.

I-75 uses Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie, all are legit.

I-94 uses Port Huron, Detroit and Chicago. Now this might be where I have found one, Chicago is used from Detroit on west at major interchanges while smaller Michigan towns are used at other interchanges. Going west from Detroit I would think it should be Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Benton Harbor, then Chicago.

I-96 uses Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Lansing and Detroit, all are legit.

I've seen Ann Arbor, Jackson, and Marshall (I-69) used from local interchanges on I-94.

Quote from: ftballfan on January 06, 2018, 06:36:46 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on August 10, 2017, 02:16:03 AM
I'm trying to think of any in Michigan.

I-69 uses Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne, all of which are legit.

I-75 uses Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie, all are legit.

I-94 uses Port Huron, Detroit and Chicago. Now this might be where I have found one, Chicago is used from Detroit on west at major interchanges while smaller Michigan towns are used at other interchanges. Going west from Detroit I would think it should be Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Benton Harbor, then Chicago.

I-96 uses Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Lansing and Detroit, all are legit.

I've seen Ann Arbor, Jackson, and Marshall (I-69) used from local interchanges on I-94.

They use those cities too but most of the time it's Chicago and Detroit.

Gresham, the fourth largest city in Oregon, is completely skipped on eastbound I-84 in favor of The Dalles.

Quote from: pdx-wanderer on January 06, 2018, 10:59:57 PM
Gresham, the fourth largest city in Oregon, is completely skipped on eastbound I-84 in favor of The Dalles.

I know where The Dalles is. Isn't Gresham a suburb?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 07, 2018, 04:54:27 PM

Quote from: pdx-wanderer on January 06, 2018, 10:59:57 PM
Gresham, the fourth largest city in Oregon, is completely skipped on eastbound I-84 in favor of The Dalles.

I know where The Dalles is. Isn't Gresham a suburb?

The Dalles is about 75 miles from Gresham, which is a suburb of Portland. I would think that Gresham is just too close to Portland to make sense to be a control city.

Warren is Michigan's third largest city and I don't recall of it ever being used as a control city anywhere, not even on I-696 they use Port Huron and Lansing instead.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 07, 2018, 04:54:27 PM

Quote from: pdx-wanderer on January 06, 2018, 10:59:57 PM
Gresham, the fourth largest city in Oregon, is completely skipped on eastbound I-84 in favor of The Dalles.

I know where The Dalles is. Isn't Gresham a suburb?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Gresham%2C+OR+a+suburb%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Gresham%2C+OR+a+suburb%3F)

That said, generally DOTs don’t use suburbs as control cities. Instead, major cities farther away are typically used.

Quote from: kkt on September 11, 2017, 09:36:32 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 11, 2017, 09:03:12 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
Davis, CA it's on I-80 but does not show as a control city due to Sacramento getting priority as the control city because its the State capitol of California. Or Westbound I-80  Davis, CA does not appear as a control city because San Francisco takes hold for control city on I-80.

Is Davis really that big?

No, it is a mid-sized farm town, much smaller than Sacramento or Oakland.  It has a UC campus.  No reason for it to be a control city.

Sacramento just makes much more sense anyway, for one Sacramento is much bigger and for two Davis is a suburb of it.

Quote from: roadguy2 on January 07, 2018, 04:58:57 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 07, 2018, 04:54:27 PM

Quote from: pdx-wanderer on January 06, 2018, 10:59:57 PM
Gresham, the fourth largest city in Oregon, is completely skipped on eastbound I-84 in favor of The Dalles.

I know where The Dalles is. Isn't Gresham a suburb?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Gresham%2C+OR+a+suburb%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Gresham%2C+OR+a+suburb%3F)

That said, generally DOTs don't use suburbs as control cities, favoring an independent city farther away instead.

Unless your in Chicago and get to see the control city of "West Suburbs."

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2018, 05:00:58 PM

Quote from: roadguy2 on January 07, 2018, 04:58:57 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 07, 2018, 04:54:27 PM

Quote from: pdx-wanderer on January 06, 2018, 10:59:57 PM
Gresham, the fourth largest city in Oregon, is completely skipped on eastbound I-84 in favor of The Dalles.

I know where The Dalles is. Isn't Gresham a suburb?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Gresham%2C+OR+a+suburb%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Gresham%2C+OR+a+suburb%3F)

That said, generally DOTs don't use suburbs as control cities, favoring an independent city farther away instead.

Unless your in Chicago and get to see the control city of "West Suburbs."

IMO it is far better to use cities of national importance as controls on longer routes, especially 2 dis.

Suburbs have their place.  Certainly there are many short freeways that only go to the suburbs.  Beltways should be signed for both long distance cities (on a different radial route) and if possible also for suburbs that it serves.

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2018, 04:57:20 PM
Warren is Michigan's third largest city and I don't recall of it ever being used as a control city anywhere, not even on I-696 they use Port Huron and Lansing instead.

Interestingly, new signage on eastbound I-96 added Southfield as a control city (along with Port Huron) for eastbound I-696.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 07, 2018, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2018, 04:57:20 PM
Warren is Michigan's third largest city and I don't recall of it ever being used as a control city anywhere, not even on I-696 they use Port Huron and Lansing instead.

Interestingly, new signage on eastbound I-96 added Southfield as a control city (along with Port Huron) for eastbound I-696.

Then again, Southfield is home to a major interchange (I-696/M-10/US-24).

Along non-interstates in MI, Mt. Pleasant is skipped over for Clare on US-127. Mt. Pleasant is home to a Division I FBS school and has about 20-25,000 people, while Clare is much smaller.

I-69 along the north end of Lansing (between US-127 and I-96) uses Fort Wayne instead of Grand Rapids for the most part; however, the NB US-127 to WB I-69 ramp uses Grand Rapids as a control city (SB to WB uses Fort Wayne).

I-11    I-10 to I-40
Phoenix  - SB Only
Wickenberg
Kingman  - NB Only

I-11      I-40 to I-15
Kingman  - SB Only
Needles  - SB Only
Hoover Dam
Boulder City
Las Vegas  - NB Only

I-11      I-15 to I-80
Las Vegas  - SB Only
Tonapah
Reno  - NB Only

Quote from: mapman1071 on January 08, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
I-11    I-10 to I-40
Phoenix  - SB Only
Wickenberg
Kingman  - NB Only

I-11      I-40 to I-15
Kingman  - SB Only
Needles  - SB Only
Hoover Dam
Boulder City
Las Vegas  - NB Only

I-11      I-15 to I-80
Las Vegas  - SB Only
Tonapah
Reno  - NB Only

The only cities on that list that should really be used are Vegas, Reno, and Phoenix.

Didn't Norfolk used to be VA's largest city before VA Beach?  If that were so, than that would explain why along the Delmarva as far north as Wilmington, DE, the City of Norfolk is used on US 13 heading south.

Of course now you have to pass through VA largest city to reach Norfolk yet only on a few mileage signs in VA's Eastern Shore does the beach destination get a mention on a guide sign.

I also assume Norfolk is the most popular choice for even I-64 out of Richmond for that reason, as well as the city being home to the US Naval Base getting it fame as well.  However, I-64 does not enter VA Beach as US 13 does, so I-64 is more justified than Route 13.

Quote from: roadguy2 on January 08, 2018, 05:34:10 PM

Quote from: mapman1071 on January 08, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
I-11    I-10 to I-40
Phoenix  - SB Only
Wickenberg
Kingman  - NB Only

I-11      I-40 to I-15
Kingman  - SB Only
Needles  - SB Only
Hoover Dam
Boulder City
Las Vegas  - NB Only

I-11      I-15 to I-80
Las Vegas  - SB Only
Tonapah
Reno  - NB Only

The only cities on that list that should really be used are Vegas, Reno, and Phoenix.

I would sign Kingman, but only on signs with 2 control cities.

Quote from: roadman65 on January 08, 2018, 07:12:45 PM
However, I-64 does not enter VA Beach as US 13 does, so I-64 is more justified than Route 13.

I-64 does indeed enter Va Beach, though only for about 3 miles or so (about 1 1/2 miles on either side of Indian River Rd). Images from GSV:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/959c8c7e15349613944ca7e2c730045d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/75478eb7bf76595d6c7435df5b5a83f2.jpg)

SM-S820L

Quote from: ftballfan on January 08, 2018, 12:38:33 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 07, 2018, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2018, 04:57:20 PM
Warren is Michigan's third largest city and I don't recall of it ever being used as a control city anywhere, not even on I-696 they use Port Huron and Lansing instead.

Interestingly, new signage on eastbound I-96 added Southfield as a control city (along with Port Huron) for eastbound I-696.

Then again, Southfield is home to a major interchange (I-696/M-10/US-24).

Along non-interstates in MI, Mt. Pleasant is skipped over for Clare on US-127. Mt. Pleasant is home to a Division I FBS school and has about 20-25,000 people, while Clare is much smaller.

Clare is home to a major interchange (US-127 and US-10).  As you noted with Southfield, that might be what gives it the nod.

Quote from: ftballfan on January 08, 2018, 12:38:33 PM
I-69 along the north end of Lansing (between US-127 and I-96) uses Fort Wayne instead of Grand Rapids for the most part; however, the NB US-127 to WB I-69 ramp uses Grand Rapids as a control city (SB to WB uses Fort Wayne).

Hard to imagine that anybody driving north on US-127 ultimately is heading to Fort Wayne, so this one makes sense.  There's also the simple issue of different signs composed by different people at different times, and consistency sometimes gets lost.  For example, the control city for northbound M-10 is Southfield -- except at the M-8 interchange in Detroit/Highland Park, where the signs show Lansing as the control city.

Quote from: plain on January 08, 2018, 11:01:33 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on January 08, 2018, 07:12:45 PM
However, I-64 does not enter VA Beach as US 13 does, so I-64 is more justified than Route 13.

I-64 does indeed enter Va Beach, though only for about 3 miles or so (about 1 1/2 miles on either side of Indian River Rd). Images from GSV:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/959c8c7e15349613944ca7e2c730045d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/75478eb7bf76595d6c7435df5b5a83f2.jpg)

SM-S820L

Fair enough.

Quote from: kkt on September 11, 2017, 09:36:32 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 11, 2017, 09:03:12 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
Davis, CA it's on I-80 but does not show as a control city due to Sacramento getting priority as the control city because its the State capitol of California. Or Westbound I-80  Davis, CA does not appear as a control city because San Francisco takes hold for control city on I-80.

Is Davis really that big?

No, it is a mid-sized farm town, much smaller than Sacramento or Oakland.  It has a UC campus.  No reason for it to be a control city.

I believe that Davis *IS* used as a control city (and a logical one at that) on southbound CASR-113. It is also used as a destination on at least one or two distance signs west of Sacramento.

The purpose of control cities is to give *direction* as well as destination information.

I don't know the entire process by which all of the control cities in California were selected, but "Santa Ana" and "San Diego" were used as names for the freeways themselves (in some cases for 30 or 40 years) before being adopted as control cities.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 08, 2018, 09:06:01 PM

Quote from: roadguy2 on January 08, 2018, 05:34:10 PM

Quote from: mapman1071 on January 08, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
I-11    I-10 to I-40
Phoenix  - SB Only
Wickenberg
Kingman  - NB Only

I-11      I-40 to I-15
Kingman  - SB Only
Needles  - SB Only
Hoover Dam
Boulder City
Las Vegas  - NB Only

I-11      I-15 to I-80
Las Vegas  - SB Only
Tonapah
Reno  - NB Only

The only cities on that list that should really be used are Vegas, Reno, and Phoenix.

I would sign Kingman, but only on signs with 2 control cities.

Well, at present, only ~2 miles of I-11 exists and is open to traffic, so the whole list is hypothetical... (But if I-11 were active now, signing Needles doesn't make sense...)

Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 20, 2021, 10:08:31 PM
Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Why do I find myself explaining this over and over and over again?
It's all relative.
A city can be "qualified"  to be a control city, but if it's not the most "qualified"  for that particular location, then it shouldn't be a control city.
I will leave you with a few numbers.
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million
Chicago ranks more than three times as high on the world list as Ann Arbor does on the United States list (40th vs 145th).
Signing Ann Arbor would be ridiculous.

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 08:42:57 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 20, 2021, 10:08:31 PM
Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Why do I find myself explaining this over and over and over again?
It's all relative.
A city can be "qualified"  to be a control city, but if it's not the most "qualified"  for that particular location, then it shouldn't be a control city.
...
Chicago ranks more than three times as high on the world list as Ann Arbor does on the United States list (40th vs 145th).
Signing Ann Arbor would be ridiculous.

When you mention it being relative, keep in mind that it should be relative to distance as well as the size of the city. Of course Ann Arbor is much smaller, but it's also much closer. Ann Arbor is a significant regional destination, and much of the traffic on I-94 is probably going there.

In other words, your argument would make sense if we were talking about Gary instead of Ann Arbor, because Gary is comparable to Chicago in terms of distance, while Ann Arbor isn't. I'm fine with Chicago being used, but Ann Arbor isn't "ridiculous". You can make a reasonable case for it.

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 08:42:57 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 20, 2021, 10:08:31 PM
Ann Arbor on I-94. Chicago is huge, but Ann Arbor has UMich and I think it warrants a control city.

Why do I find myself explaining this over and over and over again?
It's all relative.
A city can be "qualified"  to be a control city, but if it's not the most "qualified"  for that particular location, then it shouldn't be a control city.
I will leave you with a few numbers.
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million
Chicago ranks more than three times as high on the world list as Ann Arbor does on the United States list (40th vs 145th).
Signing Ann Arbor would be ridiculous.

I'm not saying ditch Chicago, just putting Ann Arbor on some signs would be fine.

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 08:42:57 AM
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Quote from: 1 on April 21, 2021, 12:04:55 PM

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 08:42:57 AM
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Mildly confused what (I'm assuming is) population density of metro areas has anything to do with this discussion.

Chris

Quote from: jayhawkco on April 21, 2021, 03:49:34 PM

Quote from: 1 on April 21, 2021, 12:04:55 PM

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 08:42:57 AM
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Mildly confused what (I'm assuming is) population density of metro areas has anything to do with this discussion.

Chris

I'm dividing by distance from the sign squared (starting point is Detroit), the same way that gravity, sound, and several other formulas use 1/r². It's not population density.

Quote from: 1 on April 21, 2021, 03:54:27 PM

Quote from: jayhawkco on April 21, 2021, 03:49:34 PM

Quote from: 1 on April 21, 2021, 12:04:55 PM

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 08:42:57 AM
Ann Arbor metro population: 350k
Chicago metro population: 9.5 million

350k/35² = 286
9.5M/260² = 141

Mildly confused what (I'm assuming is) population density of metro areas has anything to do with this discussion.

Chris

I'm dividing by distance from the sign squared (starting point is Detroit), the same way that gravity, sound, and several other formulas use 1/r². It's not population density.

I did a double-take at first too, but it made sense once I figured out the 35 and 260 are the distances from Detroit. You're essentially assigning values to the two cities (using distance and population) to find out which one is more relevant as a control city.

Relevant to my point below:

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 10:34:02 AM
When you mention it being relative, keep in mind that it should be relative to distance as well as the size of the city. Of course Ann Arbor is much smaller, but it's also much closer.

Quote from: 1 on April 21, 2021, 03:54:27 PM
I'm dividing by distance from the sign squared (starting point is Detroit), the same way that gravity, sound, and several other formulas use 1/r². It's not population density.

Did I do this right?

Saint Paul, MN (measuring from I-694)
Eau Claire = 161k/75² = 29
Madison = 654k/250² = 10

Des Moines, IA (measuring from I-80)
Ames = 89k/26² = 132
Minneapolis = 3.6M/237² = 64

This may be an imperfect solution...

So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 21, 2021, 07:38:47 PM
So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 08:59:44 PM

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 21, 2021, 07:38:47 PM
So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

I'm bad at math explain

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 21, 2021, 09:34:34 PM

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 08:59:44 PM

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 21, 2021, 07:38:47 PM
So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

I'm bad at math explain

Haha, the math is easy, it's probably just plugging in to the formulas that you're confused by. Here goes:

x = p/d²
p = population of Ann Arbor = 350k
d = distance from Detroit to Ann Arbor = 35 miles
x = 350k/35²
x = 286

x = p/d²
p = population of Chicago = 9.5M
d = distance from Detroit to Chicago = 260 miles
x = 9.5M/260²
x = 141

286 > 141  ∴  Ann Arbor > Chicago (obviously, this isn't perfect)

Wow, that brought back some memories. I probably haven't done math like that since I was your age.

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 09:47:34 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 21, 2021, 09:34:34 PM

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 08:59:44 PM

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 21, 2021, 07:38:47 PM
So how does that 1/x^2 thing I'm seeing here exactly work with control cities? I don't see the correlation.

p/d²=x  where p=population and d=distance from starting point

I'm bad at math explain

Haha, the math is easy, it's probably just plugging in to the formulas that you're confused by. Here goes:

x = p/d²
p = population of Ann Arbor = 350k
d = distance from Detroit to Ann Arbor = 35 miles
x = 350k/35²
x = 286

x = p/d²
p = population of Chicago = 9.5M
d = distance from Detroit to Chicago = 260 miles
x = 9.5M/260²
x = 141

286 > 141  ∴  Ann Arbor > Chicago (obviously, this isn't perfect)

Wow, that brought back some memories. I probably haven't done math like that since I was your age.

I get it now.

Metro Population of Detroit: 4,296,250
Distance from Dayton to Detroit via I-75: 209 mi
x = 4296250/209^2
x = 98.355

Metro Population of Toledo: 641,816
Distance from Dayton to Toledo via I-75: 149 mi
x = 641816/149^2
x = 28.909

Guess I should email ODOT to skip Toledo and sign Detroit from Dayton on NB I-75, with this as proof.

I'm usually an advocate of using the metro population instead of the city proper population, but in this case, wouldn't the city proper population make more sense?  The suburbs of Detroit/Toledo/Chicago/etc. are basically irrelevant, considering that the control city is referencing the city proper.

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
I'm usually an advocate of using the metro population instead of the city proper population, but in this case, wouldn't the city proper population make more sense?  The suburbs of Detroit/Toledo/Chicago/etc. are basically irrelevant, considering that the control city is referencing the city proper.

" This is a very relevant statistic, until it doesn't support my side of the debate, then it's irrelevant."

Quote from: thspfc on April 21, 2021, 10:35:07 PM

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
I'm usually an advocate of using the metro population instead of the city proper population, but in this case, wouldn't the city proper population make more sense?  The suburbs of Detroit/Toledo/Chicago/etc. are basically irrelevant, considering that the control city is referencing the city proper.

" This is a very relevant statistic, until it doesn't support my side of the debate, then it's irrelevant."

Huh? I already said it was an imperfect statistic, but even then, it does support my side of the Chicago/Ann Arbor debate.

As for Detroit/Toledo, I didn't have a side on that debate. I didn't even know there was a debate about that until just now.

What madness has gotten into the lot of you? :D

Quote from: webny99 on April 21, 2021, 10:52:28 PM
As for Detroit/Toledo, I didn't have a side on that debate. I didn't even know there was a debate about that until just now.

I was just toying around with the formula. If you have cities A, B and C, with cities B and C close together, and both far from A, and C was a much larger city than B, then city C would 'win' out with the formula over B. This is why I specifically picked Toledo and Detroit from Dayton.

for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 22, 2021, 08:38:13 AM
for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

Same with I-93 in Massachusetts (and still is the case): Concord NH is posted, not Manchester NH. Manchester is both closer and larger.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 22, 2021, 08:38:13 AM
for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

Only explanation for that is Cheyenne is a state capital and the principal city of its own "metro area"  (if you can call it that), while Fort Collins is sort of a suburb. But Fort Collins does make much more sense.

Quote from: thspfc on April 22, 2021, 10:35:21 AM

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 22, 2021, 08:38:13 AM
for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

Only explanation for that is Cheyenne is a state capital and the principal city of its own "metro area"  (if you can call it that), while Fort Collins is sort of a suburb. But Fort Collins does make much more sense.

Fort Collins is only a suburb insofar as the whole I-25 corridor has "filled up", but it's definitely the prominent city of the Fort Collins/Greeley/Loveland area.

Chris

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 22, 2021, 08:38:13 AM
for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

How large was Fort Collins when Cheyenne was signed?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 22, 2021, 11:45:30 AM

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 22, 2021, 08:38:13 AM
for a long time, i-25 nb out of denver was posted 'cheyenne', even though fort collins is a). larger, b.) closer and c.) a destination for more nb traffic than cheyenne. the traffic count goes down drastically after you pass the fort collins exits. i get that cheyenne is a state capital, but that seems more like wyoming's issue..

How large was Fort Collins when Cheyenne was signed?

In 1980, Fort Collins had 65,092.  It's 2019 estimated population is 170,243.  Pretty huge growth.

Chris

Fort Collins is a midsized college town so I think I can see Fort Collins being used going NB from Denver. It's 60 miles away so it's not much different than signing Flint on NB I-75 in Detroit.

I agree with signing Fort Collins northbound from Denver, but I don't think they should have switched it in Cheyenne. It should still be 25 south Denver. Signing Fort Collins there is like signing Aurora on eastbound 88 over Chicago.

Quote from: jaehak on April 22, 2021, 01:20:24 PM
I agree with signing Fort Collins northbound from Denver, but I don't think they should have switched it in Cheyenne. It should still be 25 south Denver. Signing Fort Collins there is like signing Aurora on eastbound 88 over Chicago.

southbound, denver makes sense. as you go sb from chyoming, it starts picking up as you pass fort collins, tho there is a lot of sb traffic from cheyenne that goes to fort collins as well. maybe both? probably no simple answer.

I find it strange that on I-49 south in Missouri, the bigger Fayetteville is passed over in favor of the smaller Fort Smith.

I-90 also skips both Rochester and Syracuse and signs Buffalo instead. Same deal in Buffalo where Albany is signed.

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on September 01, 2022, 07:06:10 AM
I-90 also skips both Rochester and Syracuse and signs Buffalo instead. Same deal in Buffalo where Albany is signed.

We've mentioned these examples before. I would sign Syracuse but not Rochester as it is a bit off the highway.

US-101 North to San Jose if you are going north on US-101 from Ventura.
Also you can argue that US-101 should have San Jose as a Control city in Downtown Los Angeles given that it is the largest city in Northern California.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2022, 03:05:19 AM
I find it strange that on I-49 south in Missouri, the bigger Fayetteville is passed over in favor of the smaller Fort Smith.

Fort Smith -- now a major interstate junction.

Fayetteville -- not a major interstate junction.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2022, 08:13:56 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2022, 03:05:19 AM
I find it strange that on I-49 south in Missouri, the bigger Fayetteville is passed over in favor of the smaller Fort Smith.

Fort Smith -- now a major interstate junction.

Fayetteville -- not a major interstate junction.

I realize that but the NWA metro area is bigger than the Fort Smith metro area, Fayetteville has a major university, and it has walmart. What does Fort Smith have besides the I-40 junction?

Quote from: bing101 on September 01, 2022, 07:55:21 PM
US-101 North to San Jose if you are going north on US-101 from Ventura.
Also you can argue that US-101 should have San Jose as a Control city in Downtown Los Angeles given that it is the largest city in Northern California.

US-101 North from Ventura should be Santa Barbara --- that's just my opinion.  It's currently San Francisco.

I definitely do NOT think US-101 should be signed San Jose (or SF) anywhere in Los Angeles County.  Ventura works.

Quote from: keithvh on September 02, 2022, 01:53:14 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 01, 2022, 07:55:21 PM
US-101 North to San Jose if you are going north on US-101 from Ventura.
Also you can argue that US-101 should have San Jose as a Control city in Downtown Los Angeles given that it is the largest city in Northern California.

US-101 North from Ventura should be Santa Barbara --- that's just my opinion.  It's currently San Francisco.

I definitely do NOT think US-101 should be signed San Jose (or SF) anywhere in Los Angeles County.  Ventura works.

I feel like San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara are both control city-worthy for US 101

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2022, 09:13:39 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2022, 08:13:56 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2022, 03:05:19 AM
I find it strange that on I-49 south in Missouri, the bigger Fayetteville is passed over in favor of the smaller Fort Smith.

Fort Smith -- now a major interstate junction.

Fayetteville -- not a major interstate junction.

I realize that but the NWA metro area is bigger than the Fort Smith metro area, Fayetteville has a major university, and it has walmart. What does Fort Smith have besides the I-40 junction?

And technically, the I-40 junction is in Van Buren and not Ft Smith. Ft Smith is entirely south of the river.

Quote from: SeriesE on September 02, 2022, 04:01:02 PM

Quote from: keithvh on September 02, 2022, 01:53:14 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 01, 2022, 07:55:21 PM
US-101 North to San Jose if you are going north on US-101 from Ventura.
Also you can argue that US-101 should have San Jose as a Control city in Downtown Los Angeles given that it is the largest city in Northern California.

US-101 North from Ventura should be Santa Barbara --- that's just my opinion.  It's currently San Francisco.

I definitely do NOT think US-101 should be signed San Jose (or SF) anywhere in Los Angeles County.  Ventura works.

I feel like San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara are both control city-worthy for US 101

Santa Barbara for sure. SLO maybe as a secondary. Salinas/Monterey is a more important area but too close to San Jose to be a primary.

Murfreesboro, TN is now large enough to be a control city, or at least a secondary one heading out of Nashville.  Population over 100k now, it's a college town, and they have an interstate junction.

Quote from: wriddle082 on September 04, 2022, 06:29:21 PM
Murfreesboro, TN is now large enough to be a control city, or at least a secondary one heading out of Nashville.  Population over 100k now, it's a college town, and they have an interstate junction.

It's still a suburb though, so I would prefer it to only be a secondary.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 04, 2022, 09:49:10 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on September 04, 2022, 06:29:21 PM
Murfreesboro, TN is now large enough to be a control city, or at least a secondary one heading out of Nashville.  Population over 100k now, it's a college town, and they have an interstate junction.

It's still a suburb though, so I would prefer it to only be a secondary.

It's in a similar position to Manchester NH with regard to population of both the suburb and the main city and distance between the two cities. I wouldn't skip Manchester on I-93.

Quote from: 1 on September 05, 2022, 06:24:12 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 04, 2022, 09:49:10 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on September 04, 2022, 06:29:21 PM
Murfreesboro, TN is now large enough to be a control city, or at least a secondary one heading out of Nashville.  Population over 100k now, it's a college town, and they have an interstate junction.

It's still a suburb though, so I would prefer it to only be a secondary.

It's in a similar position to Manchester NH with regard to population of both the suburb and the main city and distance between the two cities. I wouldn't skip Manchester on I-93.

I've always wondered why Manchester was skipped over in favor of Concord as a control city on I-93 north since it is the largest city in NH, and 93 actually passes through it.

Bridgeport, CT is passed over for New Haven, CT out of NYC and was always used on the CT Turnpike for ages. 


Bridgeport is the largest city in the state and gets skipped. I can see SB being prior to the much larger NYC, but NB it's really not in the forthcoming of anything larger until maybe Providence.

Stamford, CT has now surpassed New Haven as the second-largest city in Connecticut (2020 pop. 135,470).It is large enough to be a control city and to my knowledge isn't one.

Quote from: hobsini2 on September 04, 2022, 06:16:41 PM

Quote from: SeriesE on September 02, 2022, 04:01:02 PM

Quote from: keithvh on September 02, 2022, 01:53:14 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 01, 2022, 07:55:21 PM
US-101 North to San Jose if you are going north on US-101 from Ventura.
Also you can argue that US-101 should have San Jose as a Control city in Downtown Los Angeles given that it is the largest city in Northern California.

US-101 North from Ventura should be Santa Barbara --- that's just my opinion.  It's currently San Francisco.

I definitely do NOT think US-101 should be signed San Jose (or SF) anywhere in Los Angeles County.  Ventura works.

I feel like San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara are both control city-worthy for US 101

Santa Barbara for sure. SLO maybe as a secondary. Salinas/Monterey is a more important area but too close to San Jose to be a primary.

In my view, San Francisco is the next major destination on the route, and it would get the nod. Ventura is essentially part of the LA area, and so I would definitely not go with that. It's not even the city's real name, although I admit that's not an important factor.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 05, 2022, 07:41:54 AM
Stamford, CT has now surpassed New Haven as the second-largest city in Connecticut (2020 pop. 135,470).It is large enough to be a control city and to my knowledge isn’t one.

I believe it is because New Haven is more famous and is not in the NYC metro area, as Stamford and Bridgeport are. And I might be wrong, but I do recall seing some signs for Stamford on I-95 north.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 05, 2022, 08:52:00 AM

Quote from: hobsini2 on September 04, 2022, 06:16:41 PM

Quote from: SeriesE on September 02, 2022, 04:01:02 PM

Quote from: keithvh on September 02, 2022, 01:53:14 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 01, 2022, 07:55:21 PM
US-101 North to San Jose if you are going north on US-101 from Ventura.
Also you can argue that US-101 should have San Jose as a Control city in Downtown Los Angeles given that it is the largest city in Northern California.

US-101 North from Ventura should be Santa Barbara --- that's just my opinion.  It's currently San Francisco.

I definitely do NOT think US-101 should be signed San Jose (or SF) anywhere in Los Angeles County.  Ventura works.

I feel like San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara are both control city-worthy for US 101

Santa Barbara for sure. SLO maybe as a secondary. Salinas/Monterey is a more important area but too close to San Jose to be a primary.

In my view, San Francisco is the next major destination on the route, and it would get the nod. Ventura is essentially part of the LA area, and so I would definitely not go with that. It's not even the city's real name, although I admit that's not an important factor.

Some of this re: US 101 is a side effect of how California's control city philosophies have evolved.

When the vast majority of the LA freeway system was built out (1940s-1960s), local destinations were emphasized above all else.  This gave us things like US 101 signed for Hollywood from downtown LA, I-10 along what was the Ramona Freeway corridor being monikered for the control city of San Bernardino (which for the most part is not even directly on that trajectory), etc.

From about the 1970s on, the MUTCD emphasis on longer-distance controls has only emerged in a couple of instances here:

- the switchover of I-5 northbound control city from Bakersfield to Sacramento within Los Angeles city limits (also affecting signage on 405 and 170), even though the Golden State corridor that was US 99 and continues into modern day Route 99 still goes to Bakersfield directly

- longer-distance destinations becoming the norm in Sacramento when that city's freeway network was built (before the 1976-era cancellations), i.e. neither 99 or 5 using "Stockton" southbound, and only one reference to "Roseville" along Route 160 east and none on 80 or today's Business 80.



The Bay Area is a hybrid of this: LA serves as a the US 101 southbound control starting at Route 85 in Mountain View, and I-680 has Sacramento as a northbound control from San Jose northward (even though when 680 ends at 80 in Fairfield, one is still over 45 miles west of Sacramento).  The rest of the control destinations are very local otherwise, with 80 having no mention of Sacramento whatsoever in SF city limits.

Basically, all this is to say that while in other states, 100-300+ mile destinations would be signed both in downtown SF (i.e. LA/Sacramento/Eureka) and in downtown LA (i.e. other than Sacramento: SF, Phoenix, San Diego), in California, the local destinations will always come first in most urban areas, excluding in Sacramento itself.   101's sequence of Hollywood/Ventura/SF from I-5 to Route 126 may not be ideal by modern FHWA standards but it isn't confusing at all, though I do think Santa Barbara as a primary control from Ventura westbound is much more logical than just SF alone, and SJ not being mentioned until Salinas is an artifact of pre-1990 population measurements.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but Illinois doesn't use Bloomington-Normal on I-55. It's a tad strange, but not totally insane. Northbound, you might as well just go all the way to Chicago (which is what they do), and to the south you have Springfield (the state capital), followed by St. Louis, MO. However, Bloomington-Normal is the largest population center for at least 50 miles each direction on I-55, and marks the junctions of two other Interstates: I-74 and I-39. Take I-74 east to Champaign-Urbana and Indianapolis, or west to Peoria and Moline-Rock Island-Davenport-Bettendorf (The Quad Cities). Take I-39 north to Rockford and into wiss-KAAN-sin.

Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 02:34:32 PM
I've mentioned this in another thread, but Illinois doesn't use Bloomington-Normal on I-55. It's a tad strange, but not totally insane. Northbound, you might as well just go all the way to Chicago (which is what they do), and to the south you have Springfield (the state capital), followed by St. Louis, MO. However, Bloomington-Normal is the largest population center for at least 50 miles each direction on I-55, and marks the junctions of two other Interstates: I-74 and I-39. Take I-74 east to Champaign-Urbana and Indianapolis, or west to Peoria and Moline-Rock Island-Davenport-Bettendorf (The Quad Cities). Take I-39 north to Rockford and into wiss-KAAN-sin.

Bloomington and Springfield are used as a secondary on I-55 in both directions. Bloomington-Normal is the primary for I-39 South.

In Florida we have Gainesville skipped over for Lake City leaving Ocala for I-75 north.

In Georgia, though Valdosta is much larger than Tifton, heading south from Macon on I-75 south, could use Tifton instead of Valdosta.  The freeway goes practically right through the middle of the city, where in Valdosta the highway runs a few miles west of it. Remember all developments along I-75 were post freeway sprawl in Valdosta where in Tifton the developments were there preceding the interstate as most there appears suburbia and not modern. 

Here in Wisconsin, to this day, WisDOT has always passed over the use of 'Appleton' as a control for major roadways leading to NB I- (and before then 'US') 41 in metro Milwaukee, opting for the much smaller 'Fond du Lac', instead.  When I was a kid, this often confused my late father when we were returning from Brewers games, requiring me to set him straight.

More recently, WisDOT removed major references to 'Madison' and 'Oshkosh' from WI 26 at I-41 in Oshkosh and US 151 at Waupun, opting to direct that traffic to go via Fond du Lac, instead.

:spin:

BTW, I do like the IDOT's use of states as controls on the expressways in Chicagoland and wish that New Jersey would use 'Pennsylvania' as a major control on WB I-80 (also I-78?).  'Del Water Gap' on I-80 confused the bejeevers out of me during a roadtrip a couple of decades ago.

"BTW, I do like the IDOT's use of states as controls on the expressways in Chicagoland..."

Glad to find someone agreeing with me,  :cool:

"Control City Freak" goes nuts about this, but better than "Limon CO"  :poke:

Quote from: US20IL64 on September 26, 2022, 10:23:30 PM
"BTW, I do like the IDOT's use of states as controls on the expressways in Chicagoland..."

Glad to find someone agreeing with me,  :cool:

"Control City Freak" goes nuts about this, but better than "Limon CO"  :poke:

In certain situations, state controls make a ton of sense.  Using Pennsylvania on I-80 from New York is ok. I would prefer Patterson & Cleveland from New York because that would indicate a westerly city on the Great Lakes besides Buffalo. I do not like the use of Iowa on 80/294 west of I-94/IL 394. Should be Davenport (Quad Cities) or Des Moines for 80 with Milwaukee and O'Hare for 294.

Quote from: hobsini2 on September 25, 2022, 01:38:31 PM

Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 02:34:32 PM
I've mentioned this in another thread, but Illinois doesn't use Bloomington-Normal on I-55. It's a tad strange, but not totally insane. Northbound, you might as well just go all the way to Chicago (which is what they do), and to the south you have Springfield (the state capital), followed by St. Louis, MO. However, Bloomington-Normal is the largest population center for at least 50 miles each direction on I-55, and marks the junctions of two other Interstates: I-74 and I-39. Take I-74 east to Champaign-Urbana and Indianapolis, or west to Peoria and Moline-Rock Island-Davenport-Bettendorf (The Quad Cities). Take I-39 north to Rockford and into wiss-KAAN-sin.

Bloomington and Springfield are used as a secondary on I-55 in both directions. Bloomington-Normal is the primary for I-39 South.

Well that makes sense for I-39, I never said they don't use it on that road. I'd actually like to know if it even exists as a secondary on I-74.

Quote from: kirbykart on October 01, 2022, 11:17:40 AM

Quote from: hobsini2 on September 25, 2022, 01:38:31 PM

Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 02:34:32 PM
I've mentioned this in another thread, but Illinois doesn't use Bloomington-Normal on I-55. It's a tad strange, but not totally insane. Northbound, you might as well just go all the way to Chicago (which is what they do), and to the south you have Springfield (the state capital), followed by St. Louis, MO. However, Bloomington-Normal is the largest population center for at least 50 miles each direction on I-55, and marks the junctions of two other Interstates: I-74 and I-39. Take I-74 east to Champaign-Urbana and Indianapolis, or west to Peoria and Moline-Rock Island-Davenport-Bettendorf (The Quad Cities). Take I-39 north to Rockford and into wiss-KAAN-sin.

Bloomington and Springfield are used as a secondary on I-55 in both directions. Bloomington-Normal is the primary for I-39 South.

Well that makes sense for I-39, I never said they don't use it on that road. I'd actually like to know if it even exists as a secondary on I-74.

Yes I-74 uses Bloomington as a secondary.

Quote from: mgk920 on September 26, 2022, 01:24:31 PM
Here in Wisconsin, to this day, WisDOT has always passed over the use of 'Appleton' as a control for major roadways leading to NB I- (and before then 'US') 41 in metro Milwaukee, opting for the much smaller 'Fond du Lac', instead.  When I was a kid, this often confused my late father when we were returning from Brewers games, requiring me to set him straight.

I mean, it's literally called the Fond du Lac Freeway, so that could just be the DOT complying with a local association without doing the logical thing (putting the freeway name on the BGS).

Is this where I mention Maryland skips Wilmington and Philly on 95 north due to the New Jersey Turnpike?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2022, 09:13:39 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2022, 08:13:56 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2022, 03:05:19 AM
I find it strange that on I-49 south in Missouri, the bigger Fayetteville is passed over in favor of the smaller Fort Smith.

Fort Smith -- now a major interstate junction.

Fayetteville -- not a major interstate junction.

I realize that but the NWA metro area is bigger than the Fort Smith metro area, Fayetteville has a major university, and it has walmart. What does Fort Smith have besides the I-40 junction?

Fayetteville does not have Walmart, Bentonville does. Similarily, Lowell has J.B Hunt, and Springdale has Tyson. Your mistake actually makes a good point for why Fayetteville is not used as a control city (at least by Missouri.. Arkansas uses Fayetteville as a northbound control city, because it wouldn't make sense to have Joplin as a control city instead). While Fayetteville is the largest of the NWA cities (by a narrow margin), the fact that the Northwest Arkansas metro is not centered on one city is what makes it difficult to have any of them as a control city.

Quote from: Molandfreak on October 01, 2022, 03:56:20 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 26, 2022, 01:24:31 PM
Here in Wisconsin, to this day, WisDOT has always passed over the use of 'Appleton' as a control for major roadways leading to NB I- (and before then 'US') 41 in metro Milwaukee, opting for the much smaller 'Fond du Lac', instead.  When I was a kid, this often confused my late father when we were returning from Brewers games, requiring me to set him straight.

I mean, it's literally called the Fond du Lac Freeway, so that could just be the DOT complying with a local association without doing the logical thing (putting the freeway name on the BGS).

It was called that because it was built along side of and, in truncated form, feeds into Fond du Lac Ave.  Farther in, it was to become the Park West Freeway.

Mike