I was out in Phoenix recently, and decided to take an extra day and drive up to Sedona. From my hotel in Mesa, I hopped on US 60 (GREAT stretch of freeway. Flows very nicely) and then took Loop 101 north to meet up with 17.
101 was a great freeway. Wide, smooth surface, beautifully designed stacks, lots of new development off of the exits. Have any of the Phoenix area loop routes (101,202, and perhaps 303 when or if that ever gets built) ever been under consideration for Interstate status? They certainly seem to meet, maybe even exceed, the standards.
I could easily see these as I-217, or I-810 (chose the latter since there currently isn't an 810 in the system anywhere). Maybe even a routing of the future I-11 someday. Were these ever meant to be part of the Interstate system?
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 04, 2012, 10:01:16 AMWere these ever meant to be part of the Interstate system?
I think they were planned too recently for that. Phoenix experienced a lot of growth well after the interstate system was laid out.
that's why Detroit has a three-digit interstate and Phoenix does not.
I tend to agree with Jake--very little if any of the Phoenix loops as they currently exist were considered as Interstates. SR 51, however, is a revival of an I-510 proposal which failed in the 1970's, and US 60 (Superstition Freeway) was begun in 1970 (as SR 360) and finished (and renumbered US 60) in 1989, so most of it pre-dates both the Loops and certain Interstate segments in Phoenix such as the I-10 Hance Park tunnel.
They have no intent of adding their state freeways to the I-system, the only 3di ever there was absorbed into the I-10/17 loop. For whatever reason, I don't think they ever even requested to have the I-number. Maybe by that time the added funding wasn't available, so they saw no point. But I think it at least in part had to do with not going through the hassles of dealing with the FHWA to construct the highways - environmental requirements may have been a factor, for example.
IIRC - Phoenix fought freeways for many years, finally when the initial interstate funding opportunity had largely passed it voted itself a local sales tax to fund freeway construction.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 04, 2012, 12:17:32 PM
I tend to agree with Jake
He has such a sparkly personality, how could you not?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 04, 2012, 10:19:36 AM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 04, 2012, 10:01:16 AMWere these ever meant to be part of the Interstate system?
I think they were planned too recently for that. Phoenix experienced a lot of growth well after the interstate system was laid out.
that's why Detroit has a three-digit interstate and Phoenix does not.
Not exactly. Arizona did not apply for a number to AASHTO. That's why I-355 (IL) has an interstate number, and Loop 101 (AZ) does not. Some of Detroit's could have been interstates had MDOT applied for it. They didn't.
I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).
Quote from: blawp on May 06, 2012, 05:43:08 PM
I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).
Crude? They're in better shape than most Chicago or LA freeways with decent merging areas and widths. Then again, most of them were built later as well.
No parclo no care
Quote from: blawp on May 06, 2012, 05:43:08 PM
I find arizona's freeways a bit crude.
They certainly have better aesthetics than anything in Pennsylvania. PennDOT seems to think that aesthetics means putting some goofy design on the sound walls.
Quote from: Brandon on May 06, 2012, 10:33:38 PM
Quote from: blawp on May 06, 2012, 05:43:08 PM
I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).
Crude? They're in better shape than most Chicago or LA freeways with decent merging areas and widths. Then again, most of them were built later as well.
I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.
Quote from: Steve on May 07, 2012, 08:26:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 06, 2012, 10:33:38 PM
Quote from: blawp on May 06, 2012, 05:43:08 PM
I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).
Crude? They're in better shape than most Chicago or LA freeways with decent merging areas and widths. Then again, most of them were built later as well.
I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.
I live in Phoenix and have to agree the freeways are not crude at all, with the possible exception of I-17 from about Dunlap Avenue south which can be a bit spooky; it's an old stretch of freeway that was built in the 1960s. Other than that, the freeways are far better than the ones in Los Angeles (trust me; I used to live in L.A. and still go there a couple of times a year for visits).
Quote from: Steve on May 07, 2012, 08:26:51 PM
I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.
What little I have seen of New Mexico highways makes me less apt to lump them in with Florida and Texas and more likely to throw them in the pile with Oklahoma and Pennsylvania.
Actually the impression I got was that Pennsylvania did a better job, on the whole.
Speaking of Phoenix loops, how's the freeway upgrades of Loop-303 going between US-60 and I-10?
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 10, 2012, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 07, 2012, 08:26:51 PM
I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.
What little I have seen of New Mexico highways makes me less apt to lump them in with Florida and Texas and more likely to throw them in the pile with Oklahoma and Pennsylvania.
Actually the impression I got was that Pennsylvania did a better job, on the whole.
New Mexico interstates are below the 50th, nay, 25th percentile in design quality. What do stand out are the two state highways constructed to freeway standards (U.S. 84 NW of Santa Fe, U.S. 70 E of Las Cruces), mainly by the comparison with what they replaced and their aesthetic values.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on May 10, 2012, 06:45:33 PMU.S. 70 E of Las Cruces
even when this becomes an expressway with some driveway accesses at grade, the speed limit remains 75mph. one of the few places outside of Texas where you will find that. (maybe the only place in the US?)
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 10, 2012, 06:05:56 PM
Speaking of Phoenix loops, how's the freeway upgrades of Loop-303 going between US-60 and I-10?
I think they're on schedule. At least the modified schedule after their funding got cut. My parents live a quarter mile from the 303 up in Peoria, so I've been checking out the work every time I head out there. ADOT has a blog (http://adotblog.blogspot.com/) that they keep relatively up to date if you're curious.
As someone who has lived in NJ almost all his life (and now PA), I think most of AZ's freeways, especially those around Phoenix are some of the best I've seen. In fairness, it's because most of the Phoenix freeways have been built in the last 25 years.
Oh... and SPUIs rule, Parclos drool :sombrero:
Quote from: Compulov on May 10, 2012, 08:03:56 PM
As someone who has lived in NJ almost all his life (and now PA), I think most of AZ's freeways, especially those around Phoenix are some of the best I've seen. In fairness, it's because most of the Phoenix freeways have been built in the last 25 years.
Living in Bristol, you'll probably appreciate that from my perch in northeast Philadelphia, when I look at the greater Phoenix area and all the freeways the've built in the last 25 years, I covet, nay, lust for even half of the unbuilt freeways in the Philadelphia area. Even one of two of them would make my life much easier.
QuoteI live in Phoenix and have to agree the freeways are not crude at all, with the possible exception of I-17 from about Dunlap Avenue south which can be a bit spooky; it's an old stretch of freeway that was built in the 1960s. Other than that, the freeways are far better than the ones in Los Angeles (trust me; I used to live in L.A. and still go there a couple of times a year for visits).
Living in southern California, I couldn't agree more!! The freeways here are great, but often clogged. The Phoenix area freeways are nicely designed, have a great flow to them, and the traffic doesn't seem near as bad as anywhere in LA/OC.
One of my favorites was the junction of the US 60 Superstition Freeway and Loop 101. The ramp from 60W-->101N is really long, but it's got a nice "flow" to it for lack of a better term.
US 60 is probably my favorite stretch of highway out there. Lots of lanes and nice, free flowing interchanges. Straight as an arrow too!
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 10, 2012, 11:46:36 PM
Living in southern California, I couldn't agree more!! The freeways here are great, but often clogged. The Phoenix area freeways are nicely designed, have a great flow to them, and the traffic doesn't seem near as bad as anywhere in LA/OC.
One of my favorites was the junction of the US 60 Superstition Freeway and Loop 101. The ramp from 60W-->101N is really long, but it's got a nice "flow" to it for lack of a better term.
US 60 is probably my favorite stretch of highway out there. Lots of lanes and nice, free flowing interchanges. Straight as an arrow too!
Oh, traffic is bad at the wrong times of day. When heading home, I used to fly out at a time which meant I was commuting to Sky Harbor from the Northwest Valley during the tail end of the morning rush. 6 lanes of I-10 East sitting still was not uncommon.
As an aside, I wonder if the NJ Turnpike has the right idea with the 3-3-3-3 setup. Since each set of 3 lanes has a dedicated entrance and exit, does that help the road carry more traffic since you have less weaving across 6 lanes? There has to be a point where adding more lanes to a freeway has diminishing returns and I wonder if I-10 through Phoenix has reached that point.
But I agree. They have some really awesome freeway-freeway interchanges, especially between the loops and other roads, since they were all built in recent years. ADOT has also been proactive about constructing newer freeways in areas that are slated to get built up, but aren't quite there yet, securing land while it's cheaper. Of course that works both ways... as I drove along the new stretch of the 303 through the desert, I wondered just how the landscape would look in 30 years.
Quote from: Compulov on May 11, 2012, 06:58:03 AM
As an aside, I wonder if the NJ Turnpike has the right idea with the 3-3-3-3 setup. Since each set of 3 lanes has a dedicated entrance and exit, does that help the road carry more traffic since you have less weaving across 6 lanes? There has to be a point where adding more lanes to a freeway has diminishing returns and I wonder if I-10 through Phoenix has reached that point.
When growing up in southern California in the 70s, I remember the conventional wisdom on that subject was that with freeways wider than eight lanes (four in each direction), the additional lane changes largely offset the added capacity from the extra lanes, and so it would be better to build a second freeway than expand an existing freeway to ten or twelve lanes. Of course, CalTrans nowadays breaks this rule regularly (such as on I-5 south of downtown Los Angeles), because building new freeways is so hard.
The N.J. Turnpike's 3-3-3-3 arrangement makes a lot of sense for that reason, even though the four separated roadways are all within the same right of way.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 10, 2012, 07:15:40 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on May 10, 2012, 06:45:33 PMU.S. 70 E of Las Cruces
even when this becomes an expressway with some driveway accesses at grade, the speed limit remains 75mph. one of the few places outside of Texas you will find that. (maybe the only place in the US?)
Unless the 75 mph zone has been extended westward, the only stretch of 75 on U.S. 70 is across the White Sands Missile Range, where there is very limited side road traffic. (Makes exiting the drive at the White Sands National Monument, the east end of the 75 speed limit where it drops to 65 mph, very exciting). New Mexico has been expanding the use of 70 mph on rural expressways statewide.
NJ Turnpike's 3/3/3/3 setup is mostly for roadway management. If you get an accident in one set of lanes, you can shift traffic over to the next set. It also makes overnight construction easy - just close one roadway and set your crews up as you like. However, these are things you can also do when you have a single roadway with 6 lanes by partitioning off 3 of them... and you could easily have 7-8 lanes in the same ROW as 3/3.
Quote from: Steve on May 11, 2012, 07:03:16 PM
NJ Turnpike's 3/3/3/3 setup is mostly for roadway management. If you get an accident in one set of lanes, you can shift traffic over to the next set. It also makes overnight construction easy - just close one roadway and set your crews up as you like. However, these are things you can also do when you have a single roadway with 6 lanes by partitioning off 3 of them... and you could easily have 7-8 lanes in the same ROW as 3/3.
A 4-lane directional roadway is the widest before per-lane capacities start declining as more lanes are added. A 3x3 has significantly more capacity than a 6-lane roadway, and has operational advantages also.
Quote from: Beltway on May 11, 2012, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 11, 2012, 07:03:16 PM
NJ Turnpike's 3/3/3/3 setup is mostly for roadway management. If you get an accident in one set of lanes, you can shift traffic over to the next set. It also makes overnight construction easy - just close one roadway and set your crews up as you like. However, these are things you can also do when you have a single roadway with 6 lanes by partitioning off 3 of them... and you could easily have 7-8 lanes in the same ROW as 3/3.
A 4-lane directional roadway is the widest before per-lane capacities start declining as more lanes are added. A 3x3 has significantly more capacity than a 6-lane roadway, and has operational advantages also.
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 12:20:18 AM
Quote from: Beltway on May 11, 2012, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 11, 2012, 07:03:16 PM
NJ Turnpike's 3/3/3/3 setup is mostly for roadway management. If you get an accident in one set of lanes, you can shift traffic over to the next set. It also makes overnight construction easy - just close one roadway and set your crews up as you like. However, these are things you can also do when you have a single roadway with 6 lanes by partitioning off 3 of them... and you could easily have 7-8 lanes in the same ROW as 3/3.
A 4-lane directional roadway is the widest before per-lane capacities start declining as more lanes are added. A 3x3 has significantly more capacity than a 6-lane roadway, and has operational advantages also.
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
But then you have the problem of how many lanes you need to cross to get to an exit, or how many lanes are between a vehicle and a shoulder. With 4 lanes you have to cross at most one lane to get to a shoulder in an emergency, assuming that there is a full left shoulder.
If you need 8 lanes directional, it could be 4x4.
I would much rather see dual-divided for anything 10 lanes or wider.
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:26:24 PM
If you need 8 lanes directional, it could be 4x4.
Not in the same ROW constraints.
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2012, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:26:24 PM
If you need 8 lanes directional, it could be 4x4.
Not in the same ROW constraints.
That assumes that there are such 'constraints'.
Eight lanes with only 2 shoulders is not an efficient design.
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:39:26 PM
That assumes that there are such 'constraints'.
Well, yes I did make the assumption, since the post you were replying to gave ROW constraints:
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 12:20:18 AM
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:39:26 PM
That assumes that there are such 'constraints'.
Well, yes I did make the assumption, since the post you were replying to gave ROW constraints:
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 12:20:18 AM
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:39:26 PM
That assumes that there are such 'constraints'.
Well, yes I did make the assumption, since the post you were replying to gave ROW constraints:
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 12:20:18 AM
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
A rather artificial constraint, as I don't know of any situation where such a decision needed to be made (8 lane roadway rather than 3x3).
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:39:26 PM
That assumes that there are such 'constraints'.
Well, yes I did make the assumption, since the post you were replying to gave ROW constraints:
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 12:20:18 AM
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 01:39:26 PM
That assumes that there are such 'constraints'.
Well, yes I did make the assumption, since the post you were replying to gave ROW constraints:
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 12:20:18 AM
3x3 compared to 6, yes. What about 3x3 compared to 7? You'd have to be under 2,100 per lane with 7 lanes to dip below capacity with 3x3 if it's ideal (2400). And when you consider two shoulders plus guiderails, you could probably get 8 in there - I think it's no contest that 8 does better than 3x3.
A rather artificial constraint, as I don't know of any situation where such a decision needed to be made (8 lane roadway rather than 3x3).
It's not artificial, I'm talking about a better use of the current 3x3 space as an 8 lane roadway. That's a very real constraint, even if the decision is not one that needs to be made.
Needs moar parclos in AZ. The diamonds are really inefficient.
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 07:22:53 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
A rather artificial constraint, as I don't know of any situation where such a decision needed to be made (8 lane roadway rather than 3x3).
It's not artificial, I'm talking about a better use of the current 3x3 space as an 8 lane roadway. That's a very real constraint, even if the decision is not one that needs to be made.
I've never heard of any highway agency considering such a thing. IMO it would be a monstrosity to put that many lanes on a directional roadway.
NJTP has already widened a long 3x3x3x3 section to 4x3x3x4, and could do more if needed. That has more capacity than 8x8, and has operational advantages as well.
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 10:04:22 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 07:22:53 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
A rather artificial constraint, as I don't know of any situation where such a decision needed to be made (8 lane roadway rather than 3x3).
It's not artificial, I'm talking about a better use of the current 3x3 space as an 8 lane roadway. That's a very real constraint, even if the decision is not one that needs to be made.
I've never heard of any highway agency considering such a thing. IMO it would be a monstrosity to put that many lanes on a directional roadway.
NJTP has already widened a long 3x3x3x3 section to 4x3x3x4, and could do more if needed. That has more capacity than 8x8, and has operational advantages as well.
The real point is, they don't need more capacity there, so it's a moot point. The 4x4 section was to add an HOV lane, the only one left in the state (and possibly on its way out) except for PANYNJ approaches. It actually necks to 3x3 at Interchange 13, so it's not all that much help anyway. The points that have been made about safety re: shoulder availability and number of lane changes are ones that stick with me.
When I was in the Phoenix area last year, I took all three loops (starting with the partially constructed 303 that morning) and just plain gawked at the stacks. I especially appreciated the stack when I went under it on I-17. The short stack is nice too - but compare nothing to the SuperSanTan - red and all! I was last in Phoenix as a kid in 1983(ish) and back then the Superstition freeway ended at Gilbert Road and was 2 or 3 lane nearly all the way - the short stack didn't exist and the Stack was not all there. Now with 5-6 lane Superstition, all those loops and stacks - I just was plain amazed by the architecture.
Phoenix grows out - not up, and the freeways accommodate for it. They can build them that wide there unlike NYC, Chicago, Philly SureKill, Pittsburgh, etc. Interchanges can be large enough to prevent traffic from slowing down as it transitions from road to road (just like Texas). The freeways grew as the metro area grew so (IMO) the chance of NIMBYism was less (Though it does exist)
Quote from: Master son on May 14, 2012, 08:17:01 PM
Phoenix grows out - not up...
Funny you should put it like that. One of the biggest reasons that Phoenix is threatening to overtake Philadelphia as the county's 5th largest city (although Phila did show growth in the 2010 census for the first time since 1950) is that it has been annexing neighboring populated land area. Philadelphia hasn't had that option since the 1850s (and probably wouldn't even want to do it now if it could).
Not that I'm complaining. If neighboring communities want to throw their lot in with Phoenix, that's their business.
The stacks in the inland empire are more impressive than the ones in Phoenix, a city that cannot comprehend a ParClo.
Quote from: blawp on May 15, 2012, 12:45:56 PM
The stacks in the inland empire are more impressive than the ones in Phoenix, a city that cannot comprehend a ParClo.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
Quote from: blawp on May 15, 2012, 12:45:56 PM
The stacks in the inland empire are more impressive than the ones in Phoenix, a city that cannot comprehend a ParClo.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Nope.
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
Quote from: blawp on May 15, 2012, 12:45:56 PM
The stacks in the inland empire are more impressive than the ones in Phoenix, a city that cannot comprehend a ParClo.
What the hell is wrong with you?
He needs an 85 mph ride on I-366.
:thumbdown:
(we need a shaking-my-head-in-disappointment emoticon)
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 08:05:39 PM
:thumbdown:
(we need a shaking-my-head-in-disappointment emoticon)
How about :no:?
Quote from: Takumi on May 15, 2012, 09:56:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 08:05:39 PM
:thumbdown:
(we need a shaking-my-head-in-disappointment emoticon)
How about :no:?
No, no, not all like that.... Or maybe..... Exactly.
When the parclo at the 17 and Carefree Highway was built you would've thought ADOT landed someone on the moon with the way they were educating the public.
Post Merge: May 16, 2012, 06:50:16 PM
The hilarious thing about that parclo though is that they designed it so that it doesn't eliminate any phases from the signal. lol o ADOT.
Quote from: blawp on May 15, 2012, 12:45:56 PM
The stacks in the inland empire are more impressive than the ones in Phoenix, a city that cannot comprehend a ParClo.
What. The. Fuck?
Dude, find yourself a parclo and a cheap motel room. Diamonds work just fine for many applications (and to be honest, LA had a lot of them too, when I took I-5 through town). As for stacks, a four-level stack is impressive whether it is in LA, Phoenix, Houston, or Detroit.
the thing Phoenix cannot comprehend is a single route number for the through highway. I-10 and US-60 both exit off themselves at least once, and the only north-south route which is in any way "through" is I-17 and that ends as a staggeringly confusing square loop which somehow manages to intersect I-10 twice.
Phoenix's obsession with maintaining an almost completely rectilinear freeway grid leads to driver confusion. what's wrong with a road that deviates 5 degrees from a pure cardinal direction, as opposed to making several sharp turns downtown?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 16, 2012, 06:27:21 PM
the thing Phoenix cannot comprehend is a single route number for the through highway. I-10 and US-60 both exit off themselves at least once, and the only north-south route which is in any way "through" is I-17 and that ends as a staggeringly confusing square loop which somehow manages to intersect I-10 twice.
Phoenix's obsession with maintaining an almost completely rectilinear freeway grid leads to driver confusion. what's wrong with a road that deviates 5 degrees from a pure cardinal direction, as opposed to making several sharp turns downtown?
Wouldn't that have more to do with when I-10 was built and the availability of land/right of way at that time? Where does I-10 exit off itself? I've driven that section of I-10 quite often (well often for someone who doesn't live in the area) and it always seemed fairly obvious to me that you were just taking a wide 90 degree curve rather than some sort of long ramp. I do agree that 90 degree turns are somewhat unusual for a freeway, though not unheard of. It *is* confusing as an out-of-towner when you're aiming to get back to the freeway from surface streets and don't recall if you need to head north or west (or south or east) to get back to I-10...
I had misremembered - 60 actually exits off itself; 10 just has the "freeway route number changes angles at 90 degrees, while another freeway continues geographically forward".
that said, having I-10 exit due south to leave town heading logically east is also pretty silly.
what land wasn't available to buy when I-10 was being implemented? I'm imagining the Phoenix of the early 1960s as being a whole lot of nothing with an unusual quantity of US routes multiplexed through it.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 02:21:51 PM
I had misremembered - 60 actually exits off itself; 10 just has the "freeway route number changes angles at 90 degrees, while another freeway continues geographically forward".
that said, having I-10 exit due south to leave town heading logically east is also pretty silly.
On the 1967 Rand McNally Texaco atlas, I recall I-10 was originally proposed to intersect I-17 only once - where the Durango Curve is now - with no downtown freeway marked. (Was the downtown freeway - what is now the I-10 between the two I-17 junctions - the proposed I-410?)
almost.
from kurumi's page, with respect to 410:
QuoteInterstate 410 was added to Arizona's system on Dec. 13, 1968, as part of the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1968. [6note]. It has appeared on at least one map (1970 Phoenix city map, by Gousha). It was even signed for awhile in the early 1970s, but only on the approach from I-10 (starting in August 1971). On the short freeway itself (extending to Buckeye Road), there were no I-410 signs.
The north-south portion, which includes the Buckeye Road interchange, was earlier called I-510, a number approved on Nov. 10, 1958. This was signed I-510 for a while.
I would love to see a 510 shield. the 410 was likely signed only on overheads.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/AZ/AZ19650101i1.jpg)
I-410 would make a lot more sense than the current I-17 routing. Ideally, I-17 would end at the junction with I-10, and the segment that skirts the south end of downtown could be I-410. Short segment, seems better off as a 3di, IMO.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 18, 2012, 09:53:22 AM
I-410 would make a lot more sense than the current I-17 routing. Ideally, I-17 would end at the junction with I-10, and the segment that skirts the south end of downtown could be I-410. Short segment, seems better off as a 3di, IMO.
Any reason they even *need* an Interstate designation on that section of highway? It's ugly given that it... gets on a freeway, merges with another freeway, then diverges from that freeway, but US-60 alone would be sufficient, especially since it has its own very nice freeway a few miles away. Giving it another Interstate designation seems to just create yet another duplex where one doesn't need to exist. I suppose it would let traffic know that it's an alternate route, but who in the general public knows that an even number means that anyway?
Compulov ... your post gets to the heart of some controversy in the road community. Should a freeway that has been built to Interstate standards be automatically granted an Interstate highway designation, or should it remain as a U.S. or state route? People here have argued this question both ways multiple times, and there is no easy answer (oftentimes, the question of whether a freeway is an Interstate or not ties back to the funding that built the highway in the first place). Given that this road was likely built with federal Interstate highway funds (unlike the Phoenix loops), I would think that any proposal here would likely keep the I-17 section within the Interstate Highway System, either as I-17 or some derivative I-x10 or I-x17 designation. It is difficult to see how the designation change would be any more effective than the current situation, since route numbers would change at the western 10/17 stack, and currently the "through" road through that stack keeps its number.
Regards,
Andy
Given that there's no more Federal 90/10 for the Interstate designation alone, I don't see it needing to be sought for every freeway. It's up to the philosophy of the state. Arizona clearly feels that its loops and links don't need the shield to be known as freeways, whereas North Carolina clearly does. In truth, there's probably a happy medium, maybe along the lines of what NJ has.
QuoteAny reason they even *need* an Interstate designation on that section of highway? It's ugly given that it... gets on a freeway, merges with another freeway, then diverges from that freeway, but US-60 alone would be sufficient, especially since it has its own very nice freeway a few miles away. Giving it another Interstate designation seems to just create yet another duplex where one doesn't need to exist. I suppose it would let traffic know that it's an alternate route, but who in the general public knows that an even number means that anyway?
Valid point. It seems the general consensus of this community that any freeway meeting the standards (myself included in many posts, I'll admit) should be rewarded with a nice blue Interstate shield.
In this case, US 60 WOULD make sense as it continues east via the Superstition Freeway. No needless duplex needed.
On that note, the Superstition Freeway was originally signed as AZ 360, correct? Is this a situation where the feds too over from the state and re-branded it 60?
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 20, 2012, 09:53:30 PM
QuoteAny reason they even *need* an Interstate designation on that section of highway? It's ugly given that it... gets on a freeway, merges with another freeway, then diverges from that freeway, but US-60 alone would be sufficient, especially since it has its own very nice freeway a few miles away. Giving it another Interstate designation seems to just create yet another duplex where one doesn't need to exist. I suppose it would let traffic know that it's an alternate route, but who in the general public knows that an even number means that anyway?
Valid point. It seems the general consensus of this community that any freeway meeting the standards (myself included in many posts, I'll admit) should be rewarded with a nice blue Interstate shield.
hahahahahahahahahaha
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 20, 2012, 09:53:30 PM
On that note, the Superstition Freeway was originally signed as AZ 360, correct? Is this a situation where the feds too over from the state and re-branded it 60?
Uh no. The state applied to AASHTO to reroute US 60 and changed the signs. The feds were not involved.
Thank you for clarifying NE2. Would that stretch of freeway be a good I-366 segment? :-)
i-10 should be duplexed with i-19 and az 143 should be i-19 and the superstition freeway should be i-910 lol
AZ 202 should be a continuation of I-10. The old I-10 between Phoenix and Jacksonville becomes a continuation of I-17.
TXDOT: "That's nearly 1,000 miles of freeway we'd have to change signs for. And maps. And business cards and billboards and websites and ads and... Why the hell do you think we'd agree to something like that?"
Roadgeeks: "It gets rid of a weird bump in Phoenix; you see where 10 goes around and hits 17 again?"
TXDOT: "You've got a point; that's mighty ugly right there. Okay. We're on board."
Quote from: blawp on May 21, 2012, 01:17:58 AM
i-10 should be duplexed with i-19 and az 143 should be i-19 and the superstition freeway should be i-910 lol
What would be the point of that? Are you a troll or something?
Quote from: national highway 1 on May 21, 2012, 04:35:33 AM
Quote from: blawp on May 21, 2012, 01:17:58 AM
i-10 should be duplexed with i-19 and az 143 should be i-19 and the superstition freeway should be i-910 lol
What would be the point of that? Are you a troll or something?
Perhaps you missed the 'lol' at the end . . . ? . .
Quote from: blawp on May 21, 2012, 01:17:58 AM
i-10 should be duplexed with i-19 and az 143 should be i-19 and the superstition freeway should be i-910 lol
Keep fictional ideas in Fictional Highways. Next rule you violate is a temporary ban. Reread our rules if you're unsure.
I found some old discussion threads back from the late-1990s describing the history of Phoenix's Freeways. This was from misc.transport.road. All three of the Loop freeways were numbered differently. For example on Loop 101, the segment west of I-17 (Agua Fria Freeay) was to have been SR 417.
3 Digit Interstates and Phoenix Freeways:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_thread/thread/386d58aed1327cb3/c6c858fd8a0d52c5?lnk=gst&q=Phoenix+Freeway#c6c858fd8a0d52c5
More on Phoenix Freeway System History, etc.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_thread/thread/ded6be7ee249eb65/c2e1eb944eb905b6
Phoenix Freeway Numbering (Before 1986 on Proposed Freeways)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_thread/thread/d179b6ddd6266558/05f37033735f5f1c?lnk=gst&q=Phoenix+Freeway#05f37033735f5f1c
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 20, 2012, 09:53:30 PM
QuoteAny reason they even *need* an Interstate designation on that section of highway? It's ugly given that it... gets on a freeway, merges with another freeway, then diverges from that freeway, but US-60 alone would be sufficient, especially since it has its own very nice freeway a few miles away. Giving it another Interstate designation seems to just create yet another duplex where one doesn't need to exist. I suppose it would let traffic know that it's an alternate route, but who in the general public knows that an even number means that anyway?
Valid point. It seems the general consensus of this community that any freeway meeting the standards (myself included in many posts, I'll admit) should be rewarded with a nice blue Interstate shield.
In this case, US 60 WOULD make sense as it continues east via the Superstition Freeway. No needless duplex needed.
On that note, the Superstition Freeway was originally signed as AZ 360, correct? Is this a situation where the feds too over from the state and re-branded it 60?
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 20, 2012, 09:53:30 PM
QuoteAny reason they even *need* an Interstate designation on that section of highway? It's ugly given that it... gets on a freeway, merges with another freeway, then diverges from that freeway, but US-60 alone would be sufficient, especially since it has its own very nice freeway a few miles away. Giving it another Interstate designation seems to just create yet another duplex where one doesn't need to exist. I suppose it would let traffic know that it's an alternate route, but who in the general public knows that an even number means that anyway?
Valid point. It seems the general consensus of this community that any freeway meeting the standards (myself included in many posts, I'll admit) should be rewarded with a nice blue Interstate shield.
Not in my consensus, it doesn't. Just because you have a nice freeway does NOT automatically qualify it for a blue shield. If the state or the locals put forth the majority of the funds to build it, it should be their right to decide if it deserves to remain a state or US highway or whether to go to the Feds and apply for Interstate mileage. Not all freeways deserve to have Interstate shields, and some freeways with Interstate shields don't really deserve them to begin with.
Let Phoenix have their state loops...they built them, they deserve to name them.
The Loop freeways in Phoenix are pretty good. In some cases, better than some "interstate" highways in other states. The southern section of Loop 303 is under construction now, and most of it should be full freeway by the end of 2013 or early 2014. The only thing I could ask for is to figure out a way to build the South Mountain section of Loop 202.
Not sure what your guys' opinion on using old/new threads here, other forums prefer you to bump an old thread than start a new one, hence my bump.
I will be coming down to the Valley for the NASCAR weekend in a couple weeks and was considering checking out the 303 from I-17 all the way to I-10. Can a local give me an idea on what stage the construction is in? ADOT's website is terribly lacking in keeping current info and photos up.
I was on 303 from I-10 to Bell Rd a couple weeks ago- the speed limit is down to 25 or 35 for almost the entire length, and the carriageways are under construction. A couple overpasses are done, and in a couple places the route clearly goes up along what will be the ramp, and the road is on an entirely new alignment from McDowell to Indian School.
If your interest is in speed, definitely just take 101 down- if it's in seeing dust and construction, 303 is fine. The access from 303 to I-10 is weird now though- you have to go down McDowell east to the next exit - there's no way to get from 303 south onto Cotton Lane south at this point. The I-10/303/Cotton interchange is getting pretty impressive to look at, though.
From I-17 to Happy Valley it's all freeway now.
Quote from: Sonic99 on October 31, 2012, 01:43:42 AM
Not sure what your guys' opinion on using old/new threads here, other forums prefer you to bump an old thread than start a new one, hence my bump.
If it is relevant to a previous topic, by all means you are welcome to bump it. Given that there were no other topics on the Loop Freeways, posting here was good.
ADOT is on a few sites besides their official website.
On YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/ArizonaDOT
On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/AZDOT
On Twitter: https://twitter.com/ArizonaDOT
They also have a blog: http://adotblog.blogspot.com/
On the ADOT blog, one of the most recent links regarding Loop 303 has some construction photos. By now traffic is on the future northbound lanes between Peoria Ave and Grand Ave (US 60). The future NB on-ramps and off-ramps have two-way traffic to connect to the various cross streets.
Around where the I-10/Loop 303 interchange is being built, half diamonds connect I-10 to Sarival Ave (EB entrance/WB exit) and Citrus Rd (WB entrance/EB exit). There will be frontage roads to connect to Cotton Ln when this area is redone, sometime around 2014.
Article from AZ Central about a Goodyear retail center who's worried about the upcoming I-10/303 interchange
http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2012/10/03/20121003goodyear-loop-303-freeway-project-worries-retail-center.html
And here more pictures at http://www.azcentral.com/photo/Community/Peoria/22826
Something else I'm curious about. I've heard that the 303/I-10 interchange will be the largest in AZ, larger than The Stack. Where could I find drawings or illustrations on how the interchange is being designed and what it will look like?
http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/valley_freeways/Loop_303/North/PDF/PresentationLoop303-I10.pdf
http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/valley_freeways/Loop_303/North/PDF/062410_L303_I-10_Interchange_Rendering.pdf
If you do go down that way, I'm pretty sure the interchange is at its full height now and it's definitely really, really tall.
Wow, just looking at those illustrations....that thing is a MONSTER!! I presume that even though the 303 will end for now at I-10, they will build the ramps to connect to future 303 South as part of this? Or will they just leave the space for those to be added in the future?
From what I've seen at the scene and what I've seen online, only the connections to 303 North will be built for now. Whenever 303 is extended south of I-10, the remaining freeway-to-freeway movements will be built.
When I-17 was being widened in north Phoenix and Loop 303 was being tied into 17, no freeway-to-freeway ramps were built. There's grading for future freeway ramps, but it's basically a regular diamond interchange.
I wonder how the Loop-303/US-60 interchange will look? Openstreetmap shows some proposed flyover ramps but the data seems incomplete. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.68066&lon=-112.40523&zoom=16&layers=M
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on November 03, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
I wonder how the Loop-303/US-60 interchange will look? Openstreetmap shows some proposed flyover ramps but the data seems incomplete. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.68066&lon=-112.40523&zoom=16&layers=M
I doubt that is anything like what will be built. Just not seeing that NB(WB?) Grand Ave/US 60 to EB 303 would work with the train tracks right there. But I have been curious as to what exactly they are planning on doing there though.
http://www.azdot.gov/highways/EPG/EPG_common/PDF/EAs/303_Interstate_10_to_US60/Draft_EA_Text.pdf page 61: three-level stack (left-turn ramps crossing each other at-grade).
Quote from: NE2 on November 04, 2012, 01:00:46 AM
http://www.azdot.gov/highways/EPG/EPG_common/PDF/EAs/303_Interstate_10_to_US60/Draft_EA_Text.pdf page 61: three-level stack (left-turn ramps crossing each other at-grade).
Thanks :) It look almost like a "stacked diamond" or a "volleyball spui" http://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/spui.html
Quote from: swbrotha100 on November 03, 2012, 04:22:53 AM
From what I've seen at the scene and what I've seen online, only the connections to 303 North will be built for now. Whenever 303 is extended south of I-10, the remaining freeway-to-freeway movements will be built.
When I-17 was being widened in north Phoenix and Loop 303 was being tied into 17, no freeway-to-freeway ramps were built. There's grading for future freeway ramps, but it's basically a regular diamond interchange.
When do they expect to make it a full freeway-to-freeway interchange?
That new section of Loop 303 is nice for getting from my mother's house in Sun City West back home to my apartment near 7th Street and Bethany Home. It's out of the way but sure beats fighting all those signals on Bell Rd. to get to Loop 101 (and waiting at that LONG red light to turn east onto Bell from southbound El Mirage Rd).
Quote from: hm insulators on November 12, 2012, 03:36:37 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on November 03, 2012, 04:22:53 AM
From what I've seen at the scene and what I've seen online, only the connections to 303 North will be built for now. Whenever 303 is extended south of I-10, the remaining freeway-to-freeway movements will be built.
When I-17 was being widened in north Phoenix and Loop 303 was being tied into 17, no freeway-to-freeway ramps were built. There's grading for future freeway ramps, but it's basically a regular diamond interchange.
When do they expect to make it a full freeway-to-freeway interchange?
That new section of Loop 303 is nice for getting from my mother's house in Sun City West back home to my apartment near 7th Street and Bethany Home. It's out of the way but sure beats fighting all those signals on Bell Rd. to get to Loop 101 (and waiting at that LONG red light to turn east onto Bell from southbound El Mirage Rd).
I have no idea when ADOT will add freeway-to-freeway ramps at I-17 and Loop 303. I have seen plans for future interchange work to get started when the section of Loop 303 between Grand Avenue (US 60) and Happy Valley Parkway is upgraded, between 2016 and 2025. There are future plans to extend Sonoran Desert Drive and Sonoran Boulevard (Dove Valley Road) to the east. There's also room to add frontage roads on both sides of I-17 between Dixileta Drive and Carefree Highway (SR 74).
Hey, new here-- but living in the quagmire area that is 303, so I think I can share some answers re: 303.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on November 03, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
I wonder how the Loop-303/US-60 interchange will look? Openstreetmap shows some proposed flyover ramps but the data seems incomplete. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.68066&lon=-112.40523&zoom=16&layers=M
From the schematics I've seen, its basically a 3-level intersection. 303 mainstem will go over the entire thing-- and Southbound 303 Bridge is already in use, serving both ways. Northbound bridge still has not been constructed.
60 will remain at-level, but a farther NW/SE there will be a on/off ramp going UNDER 60 level. The off/on ramps from 303 will go UNDER 60 to meet and create an SPUI (? -- not sure what exactly this is called now) underneath 60. This way, they will avoid having the ramps cross the BNSF Railroad tracks adajacent to 60 to get back on 303.
I personally think this is ... stupid? Especially when there's word flying around with that I-11 report of a feeder freeway ("White Tanks Freeway") going E/W from I-11 to 60 and intersecting 303 exactly where the current intersection will be.
I've been thinking about why Loop 303 was built the way it is currently at I-17 (no freeway-to-freeway ramps). It may have been funding, or other factors with ADOT (concerning I-17 in general between Loop 101 and Carefree Hwy), or the city of Phoenix not yet completing local street connections to I-17 in this area.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on December 03, 2012, 07:36:29 PM
I've been thinking about why Loop 303 was built the way it is currently at I-17 (no freeway-to-freeway ramps). It may have been funding, or other factors with ADOT (concerning I-17 in general between Loop 101 and Carefree Hwy), or the city of Phoenix not yet completing local street connections to I-17 in this area.
I'm pretty sure it is funding, as the current "temporary" interchange was built in a different "budget cycle" for the sales taxes (2006-10, 11-15, 16-20, 21-25) than when the full interchange will be built. When I was in Phoenix last month, I have to say I was impressed with how they built it though. All the overpasses for I-17 are already built, and there's even a reasonably nice "graded" part that follows where the EB/NB ramp will eventually be. There will be very minimal "reconstruction" when they put the full interchange in. Unlike the stupid way they did the 17/101 interchange and had to rebuild the I-17 bridge over the 101 because they didn't build it wide enough to accommodate HOV lanes when they built it barely 15 years ago (geez, I can't believe it's been that long. Seems like just yesterday I was prodding my dad to take me down the NEW 101 section from 75th Ave to I-17 and see those huge flyovers under construction).
Quote from: swbrotha100 on November 13, 2012, 04:17:09 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on November 12, 2012, 03:36:37 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on November 03, 2012, 04:22:53 AM
From what I've seen at the scene and what I've seen online, only the connections to 303 North will be built for now. Whenever 303 is extended south of I-10, the remaining freeway-to-freeway movements will be built.
When I-17 was being widened in north Phoenix and Loop 303 was being tied into 17, no freeway-to-freeway ramps were built. There's grading for future freeway ramps, but it's basically a regular diamond interchange.
When do they expect to make it a full freeway-to-freeway interchange?
That new section of Loop 303 is nice for getting from my mother's house in Sun City West back home to my apartment near 7th Street and Bethany Home. It's out of the way but sure beats fighting all those signals on Bell Rd. to get to Loop 101 (and waiting at that LONG red light to turn east onto Bell from southbound El Mirage Rd).
I have no idea when ADOT will add freeway-to-freeway ramps at I-17 and Loop 303. I have seen plans for future interchange work to get started when the section of Loop 303 between Grand Avenue (US 60) and Happy Valley Parkway is upgraded, between 2016 and 2025. There are future plans to extend Sonoran Desert Drive and Sonoran Boulevard (Dove Valley Road) to the east. There's also room to add frontage roads on both sides of I-17 between Dixileta Drive and Carefree Highway (SR 74).
The Sonoran Boulevard (Dove Valley Road) extension to I-17 is under construction as we speak. Construction started about a week ago.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on December 03, 2012, 07:36:29 PM
I've been thinking about why Loop 303 was built the way it is currently at I-17 (no freeway-to-freeway ramps). It may have been funding, or other factors with ADOT (concerning I-17 in general between Loop 101 and Carefree Hwy), or the city of Phoenix not yet completing local street connections to I-17 in this area.
Funding has not arrived yet. Its scheduled for Phase III (Estimated Date: 2016-Were in Phase II). 303 from Grand to I-17 still has some sections not built to freeway standards (El Mirage Intersection to US 60) and several locations where the freeway itself dips onto future onramps with acutal bridges to be built (IIRC those are located at Jomax Parkway, Pyramid Peak Pkwy, 51st Ave, and one more I cant figure what road would attach to it) You can tell by looking at the aerial.
Quote from: Sonic99 on December 04, 2012, 12:14:24 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on December 03, 2012, 07:36:29 PM
I've been thinking about why Loop 303 was built the way it is currently at I-17 (no freeway-to-freeway ramps). It may have been funding, or other factors with ADOT (concerning I-17 in general between Loop 101 and Carefree Hwy), or the city of Phoenix not yet completing local street connections to I-17 in this area.
I'm pretty sure it is funding, as the current "temporary" interchange was built in a different "budget cycle" for the sales taxes (2006-10, 11-15, 16-20, 21-25) than when the full interchange will be built. When I was in Phoenix last month, I have to say I was impressed with how they built it though. All the overpasses for I-17 are already built, and there's even a reasonably nice "graded" part that follows where the EB/NB ramp will eventually be. There will be very minimal "reconstruction" when they put the full interchange in. Unlike the stupid way they did the 17/101 interchange and had to rebuild the I-17 bridge over the 101 because they didn't build it wide enough to accommodate HOV lanes when they built it barely 15 years ago (geez, I can't believe it's been that long. Seems like just yesterday I was prodding my dad to take me down the NEW 101 section from 75th Ave to I-17 and see those huge flyovers under construction).
I wish ADOT or the city of Phoenix had replaced the Pinnacle Peak Rd and Happy Valley Rd bridges over I-17, or found a way to incorporate new bridges into the widening project from Loop 101 to Anthem Way. If you have ever driven in one of these areas, especially westbound during rush hour, or this time of year, you would understand.
I have to agree, I was baffled that they left those two overpasses alone, and built several others that have nowhere near as much traffic to deal with. The large overpasses at Jomax and Sonoran Blvd are going to sit basically dormant for another handful of years, while the Pinnacle Peak and Happy Valley overpasses were overloaded 10 years ago, and weren't touched. For everything ADOT does right, there's usually something else that leads to a good headscratcher.
Speaking of those overpasses. If you are driving southbound on I-17, the overhead signs affixed to the Happy Valley Rd bridge are still button copy (whereas all of the other overhead signs in the area have been replaced by Clearview reflective signage). It's an interesting anomaly.
The Jomax Rd overpass is in use, although I would admit mostly local traffic uses it to access I-17 in comparison to overpasses going south.
As far as button copy signs, there are still a few on I-17 northbound (2 or 3 signs for the Union Hills Dr/Yorkshire Dr exit. In most of the Phoenix area, the only button copy signs that have survived are on cross streets approaching freeway interchanges.
I drove through the valley today I-17 from Jomax - I-10 (stack), I-10 from I-17 t.o Ray Rd, US 60 from I-10 to Rural Rd, and Loop 101 from McKellips to I-17.
I-17 S and I-17 N from Loop 101 to Northern in both directions is mostly Clearview free (with a good amount of button copy and non button copy FHWA remaining). North of Loop 101 there are button copy signs on the Happy Valley overpass (S/B). I-10 is Clearview between the tunnel and I-17 (although east of the tunnel it's mostly non button copy FHWA with sporadic Clearview). US 60 has Clearview signage (at least between I-10 and Rural). Loop 101 between Loop 202 and Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd is almost 100% button copy (except for one advance sign at Shea and some advance signage near the Raintree Dr. exit). North (and West) of Frank Lloyd Wright it's almost 100% Clearview (except for some city limit and cross road signage).
I dust-off this thread. The new HOV lane ramps on Loop-101 at Maryland Avenue are open.
http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/04/03/new-loop-101-hov-lane-ramps-now-open-at-maryland-ave.-in-glendale
Also, here a post dated of March 2014 about the progress of the construction of Loop-303/I-10 interchange on AZDOT blog http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/03/13/look-at-the-progress-loop-303-i-10-traffic-interchange
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on April 12, 2014, 11:09:07 AM
I dust-off this thread. The new HOV lane ramps on Loop-101 at Maryland Avenue are open.
http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/04/03/new-loop-101-hov-lane-ramps-now-open-at-maryland-ave.-in-glendale
Also, here a post dated of March 2014 about the progress of the construction of Loop-303/I-10 interchange on AZDOT blog http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/03/13/look-at-the-progress-loop-303-i-10-traffic-interchange
Two of the ramps that would connect Loop 303 south of I-10 are under construction (WB I-10 to SB Loop 303 and NB Loop 303 to WB I-10).
Quote from: swbrotha100 on April 29, 2014, 07:26:06 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on April 12, 2014, 11:09:07 AM
I dust-off this thread. The new HOV lane ramps on Loop-101 at Maryland Avenue are open.
http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/04/03/new-loop-101-hov-lane-ramps-now-open-at-maryland-ave.-in-glendale
Also, here a post dated of March 2014 about the progress of the construction of Loop-303/I-10 interchange on AZDOT blog http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/03/13/look-at-the-progress-loop-303-i-10-traffic-interchange
Two of the ramps that would connect Loop 303 south of I-10 are under construction (WB I-10 to SB Loop 303 and NB Loop 303 to WB I-10).
What's going on there? Latest Google satellite imagery shows Cotton Lane cut off and the interchange gone. Is there really no access between I-10 and Loop 303 at the moment?
Quote from: Alps on April 30, 2014, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on April 29, 2014, 07:26:06 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on April 12, 2014, 11:09:07 AM
I dust-off this thread. The new HOV lane ramps on Loop-101 at Maryland Avenue are open.
http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/04/03/new-loop-101-hov-lane-ramps-now-open-at-maryland-ave.-in-glendale
Also, here a post dated of March 2014 about the progress of the construction of Loop-303/I-10 interchange on AZDOT blog http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/03/13/look-at-the-progress-loop-303-i-10-traffic-interchange
Two of the ramps that would connect Loop 303 south of I-10 are under construction (WB I-10 to SB Loop 303 and NB Loop 303 to WB I-10).
What's going on there? Latest Google satellite imagery shows Cotton Lane cut off and the interchange gone. Is there really no access between I-10 and Loop 303 at the moment?
The is a future proposal for AZ Loop 303 to extend south to Future AZ30, Cotton Lane would WB On and EB Off Ramps only.
Quote from: Alps on April 30, 2014, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on April 29, 2014, 07:26:06 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on April 12, 2014, 11:09:07 AM
I dust-off this thread. The new HOV lane ramps on Loop-101 at Maryland Avenue are open.
http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/04/03/new-loop-101-hov-lane-ramps-now-open-at-maryland-ave.-in-glendale
Also, here a post dated of March 2014 about the progress of the construction of Loop-303/I-10 interchange on AZDOT blog http://www.azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/03/13/look-at-the-progress-loop-303-i-10-traffic-interchange
Two of the ramps that would connect Loop 303 south of I-10 are under construction (WB I-10 to SB Loop 303 and NB Loop 303 to WB I-10).
What's going on there? Latest Google satellite imagery shows Cotton Lane cut off and the interchange gone. Is there really no access between I-10 and Loop 303 at the moment?
There is no direct access from I-10 to Loop 303. For now, WB I-10 has to exit at Sarival Ave, go north to McDowell Rd, go west to the future Cotton Lane alignment. EB I-10 has to exit at Citrus Rd, go north to McDowell and east to Cotton Lane. Going north on Cotton leads to Thomas Rd, where the connection is to current (and future) Loop 303. There are frontage roads under construction, both along I-10 (Sarival Ave to Citrus Rd) and what will eventually go from McDowell to go south of I-10 to current Cotton Lane at Van Buren St. The current Cotton Lane detour between Van Buren and McDowell is still going east to Sarival or west to Citrus, and using Sarival/Citrus to go north/south between Van Buren and McDowell.
Another Phoenix area freeway is open, albeit a small stretch:
http://azdot.gov/media/News/news-release/2014/05/05/state-route-24-freeway-connection-opens-in-mesa
Although not a state highway, the first few miles of the Northern Parkway in the west valley have been open for a few months. When a couple of overpasses are built, it is built to freeway standards, whether it's labeled that way or not.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on May 09, 2014, 02:40:48 PM
Another Phoenix area freeway is open, albeit a small stretch:
http://azdot.gov/media/News/news-release/2014/05/05/state-route-24-freeway-connection-opens-in-mesa
Although not a state highway, the first few miles of the Northern Parkway in the west valley have been open for a few months. When a couple of overpasses are built, it is built to freeway standards, whether it's labeled that way or not.
Northern Parkway is a Maricopa County Funded, Constructed & Maintained Parkway. The parkway will be constructed as 4 lane Freeway from Loop 303 to El Mirage Road and 4 lane divided parkway with signalized intersections from El Mirage Road to US 60 - Grand Avenue/67th Avenue, with future plans to upgrade parkway to freeway and 4 to 6 lanes.
Loop 303 carves new West Valley identity (from AZ Republic)
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2014/05/09/loop-carves-new-west-valley-identity/8925485/
QuoteAs envisioned, the $1.8 billion Loop 303 will turn fields into shopping centers, manufacturing hubs, office parks and enough houses to shelter more than 1 million new residents. It is the first new Valley freeway in more than a decade, an arc of a road that connects Interstate 17 to Interstate 10 and forms what advocates like to call "the spine" of the emerging West Valley.
With workers starting on one of the last interchanges this summer and the mammoth I-10 connection set to open in the fall, the freeway is almost ready to prove its promise.
QuoteOf all the projects proposed to keep Valley drivers moving over the past 30 years, Loop 303 was the most tenuous, the one most easily dispensed. "This was the stepchild of the whole system," former Glendale Mayor Elaine Scruggs said.
Yet, to the West Valley it meant life. Scruggs stood in her kitchen one morning in 1994 when the phone rang. Gov. Fife Symington's chief of staff had a terse message: The governor was eliminating plans for Loop 303 and other West Valley projects.
QuoteRonald Reagan was starting his second presidential term in 1985 when MAG demographers conceived Loop 303. It formed the outer edge of a new Valley freeway system, along with Loop 101, a Grand Avenue expressway and the Paradise Parkway, an east-west connector just north of Camelback Road that would link State Route 51 in Phoenix to Loop 101 in Glendale.
QuoteLoop 303 progress:
- 1985: Maricopa County voters approve the "Northwest Loop" freeway as part of Proposition 300, which imposed a half-cent sales tax.
- 1988: The State Transportation Board approves building Loop 303 from I-10 to Grand Avenue. The board approves the section running from I-17 to Grand the next year.
- 1991: The initial two-lane section of Loop 303 between Cactus Road and Grand Avenue opens.
- 1994: Gov. Fife Symington and ADOT remove Loop 303 from the funded portion of the Regional Transportation Plan because of revenue shortfall and the failure of Proposition 400, which would have extended the sales tax.
- 1995: Maricopa County volunteers to become "caretaker" of the freeway.
- 2004: Maricopa County voters approve an updated Proposition 400, extending the half-cent sales tax. ADOT agrees to take over the freeway.
- 2009: ADOT breaks ground on sections of Loop 303 from I-17 to Happy Valley Road.
- 2011: Work begins on Loop 303 between Peoria Avenue and Mountain View Boulevard, just south of Grand Avenue. The freeway segment from I-17 to Happy Valley Road opens to traffic. Work begins on the I-10 interchange.
- 2013: Workers finish the six-lane portion between Peoria and Mountain View Boulevard.
- 2014: ADOT expects to break ground this summer on a project to widen Loop 303 into a six-lane freeway between Grand Avenue and Happy Valley Parkway.
- 2015: ADOT expects to add an interchange at Loop 303 and El Mirage Road and to improve the interchange at Grand Avenue and Loop 303.
- 2016: Work should be complete on the segments between Grand and Happy Valley and the El Mirage and Grand interchanges.
Quote from: andy3175 on May 12, 2014, 12:19:11 AM
Loop 303 carves new West Valley identity (from AZ Republic)
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2014/05/09/loop-carves-new-west-valley-identity/8925485/
QuoteAs envisioned, the $1.8 billion Loop 303 will turn fields into shopping centers, manufacturing hubs, office parks and enough houses to shelter more than 1 million new residents. It is the first new Valley freeway in more than a decade, an arc of a road that connects Interstate 17 to Interstate 10 and forms what advocates like to call "the spine" of the emerging West Valley.
With workers starting on one of the last interchanges this summer and the mammoth I-10 connection set to open in the fall, the freeway is almost ready to prove its promise.
QuoteOf all the projects proposed to keep Valley drivers moving over the past 30 years, Loop 303 was the most tenuous, the one most easily dispensed. "This was the stepchild of the whole system," former Glendale Mayor Elaine Scruggs said.
Yet, to the West Valley it meant life. Scruggs stood in her kitchen one morning in 1994 when the phone rang. Gov. Fife Symington's chief of staff had a terse message: The governor was eliminating plans for Loop 303 and other West Valley projects.
QuoteRonald Reagan was starting his second presidential term in 1985 when MAG demographers conceived Loop 303. It formed the outer edge of a new Valley freeway system, along with Loop 101, a Grand Avenue expressway and the Paradise Parkway, an east-west connector just north of Camelback Road that would link State Route 51 in Phoenix to Loop 101 in Glendale.
QuoteLoop 303 progress:
- 1985: Maricopa County voters approve the "Northwest Loop" freeway as part of Proposition 300, which imposed a half-cent sales tax.
- 1988: The State Transportation Board approves building Loop 303 from I-10 to Grand Avenue. The board approves the section running from I-17 to Grand the next year.
- 1991: The initial two-lane section of Loop 303 between Cactus Road and Grand Avenue opens.
- 1994: Gov. Fife Symington and ADOT remove Loop 303 from the funded portion of the Regional Transportation Plan because of revenue shortfall and the failure of Proposition 400, which would have extended the sales tax.
- 1995: Maricopa County volunteers to become "caretaker" of the freeway.
- 2004: Maricopa County voters approve an updated Proposition 400, extending the half-cent sales tax. ADOT agrees to take over the freeway.
- 2009: ADOT breaks ground on sections of Loop 303 from I-17 to Happy Valley Road.
- 2011: Work begins on Loop 303 between Peoria Avenue and Mountain View Boulevard, just south of Grand Avenue. The freeway segment from I-17 to Happy Valley Road opens to traffic. Work begins on the I-10 interchange.
- 2013: Workers finish the six-lane portion between Peoria and Mountain View Boulevard.
- 2014: ADOT expects to break ground this summer on a project to widen Loop 303 into a six-lane freeway between Grand Avenue and Happy Valley Parkway.
- 2015: ADOT expects to add an interchange at Loop 303 and El Mirage Road and to improve the interchange at Grand Avenue and Loop 303.
- 2016: Work should be complete on the segments between Grand and Happy Valley and the El Mirage and Grand interchanges.
The one thing I like about Loop 303 is landowners having the foresight to protect the corridor in the event a freeway actually got built. Wish the city of Phoenix had done something similar with Pecos Road and a possible future Loop 202 alignment. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if Loop 303 is a full freeway in the next couple months. The Loop 303/I-10 interchange may not be finished till the end of the year or early next year.
As of this post, Loop 303 is a full freeway between Thomas Rd and just south of Grand Ave (US 60). Most of the section south of Northern Parkway only has one lane going in each direction. The section south of Thomas Rd is still closed, but it has been paved and striped up to where the ramps to/from I-10 would connect.
Quote from: mapman1071 on May 10, 2014, 02:15:00 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on May 09, 2014, 02:40:48 PM
Another Phoenix area freeway is open, albeit a small stretch:
http://azdot.gov/media/News/news-release/2014/05/05/state-route-24-freeway-connection-opens-in-mesa
Although not a state highway, the first few miles of the Northern Parkway in the west valley have been open for a few months. When a couple of overpasses are built, it is built to freeway standards, whether it's labeled that way or not.
Northern Parkway is a Maricopa County Funded, Constructed & Maintained Parkway. The parkway will be constructed as 4 lane Freeway from Loop 303 to El Mirage Road and 4 lane divided parkway with signalized intersections from El Mirage Road to US 60 - Grand Avenue/67th Avenue, with future plans to upgrade parkway to freeway and 4 to 6 lanes.
Northern Parkway is the far-west version of what the Paradise Parkway should have been. The one thing the freeway system in the Valley is lacking is a good East/West freeway across the middle of the metro area. Paradise Parkway would have been perfect but it ended up getting scrapped. The challenges were very understandable given the amount of land the thing would have taken up, but man, that is really the biggest "missing piece" to the Valley's freeway system.
There'll be a ceremony planned for August 16 for the grand opening celebration of Loop 303
http://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/projects/loop303-n-i-10-grand-opening-invitation.pdf?sfvrsn=2
If you go on ADOT's website or Flickr page, there are photos of various Loop 303 scenes between US 60/ Grand Ave and I-10
Two of the ramps were open as of Monday morning. EB I-10 to NB Loop 303 and SB Loop 303 to EB I-10.
Just for fun, if I would convert the Phoenix area freeways into Interstates, here is how I would do it:
- Loop 101 - Interstate 210
- Loop 202 - Interstate 410
- Loop 303 - Interstate 217
- SR 51 - Interstate 510
- SR 143 - Interstate 110
- US 60 - Interstate 317 (begins at east I-10 and I-17/US 60 interchange, concurrent with US 60 and I-10 to Superstition Freeway, then concurrent with US 60 via Superstition Freeway, ending in Apache Junction)
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 19, 2014, 11:10:41 AM
Two of the ramps were open as of Monday morning. EB I-10 to NB Loop 303 and SB Loop 303 to EB I-10.
So basically the two big flyover ramps. Still looks like a ton of work to do around that interchange before it can be called "finished". I will say, I'm very happy to see they built basically "ghost ramps" for the future 303 south of I-10 to minimize impact on the other roads and ramps when the time comes. Just out of curiosity, what kind of timeline is that at? The 303 south of the 10?
http://www.azdot.gov/projects/phoenix-metro-area/loop-303-from-i-10-to-sr-30/timeline
From I-10 south to Van Buren, construction will start in 2016 and conclude in 2017. From Van Buren south to the Rio Salado Freeway (aka I-10 reliever/ AZ 30 ), construction will start in 2023 and end in 2024.
Those ghost ramps to the south of I-10 are not being built in vain !!
And construction will eventually go south of AZ 30 towards the I-11 Hassayampa Freeway after that. I think that's a good 20 years off. ADOT's website should have more information on that.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 19, 2014, 03:03:10 PM
Just for fun, if I would convert the Phoenix area freeways into Interstates, here is how I would do it:
- Loop 101 - Interstate 210
- Loop 202 - Interstate 410
- Loop 303 - Interstate 217
- SR 51 - Interstate 510
- SR 143 - Interstate 110
- US 60 - Interstate 317 (begins at east I-10 and I-17/US 60 interchange, concurrent with US 60 and I-10 to Superstition Freeway, then concurrent with US 60 via Superstition Freeway, ending in Apache Junction)
I've joked that "If I were elected Governor, I will build the Loop 404, 505, 606, 707, 808 and 909 Freeways." :-D
By the way, Pink Jazz, welcome to aaroads from a fellow road fan here in Phoenix near 7th Street and Glendale. :nod:
It looks like just in time for Labor Day, the SB Loop 303 to WB I-10 and WB I-10 to NB Loop 303 ramps are open.
Is that the final piece for the 303 for this phase? Or is there still construction at other parts? Freeway all the way from 17 to 10?
All that's left around the 10/303 interchange is frontage roads and a new Cotton Lane connection. Sometime in 2016 ADOT will start construction to extend Loop 303 south to at least Van Buren St.
The next major Loop 303 project is between US 60/Grand Ave and Happy Valley Pkwy. That should be starting soon.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on September 02, 2014, 01:41:02 AM
All that's left around the 10/303 interchange is frontage roads and a new Cotton Lane connection. Sometime in 2016 ADOT will start construction to extend Loop 303 south to at least Van Buren St.
The next major Loop 303 project is between US 60/Grand Ave and Happy Valley Pkwy. That should be starting soon.
They have already started construction on temporary crossovers west and east of El Mirage Road on the 303.
All the 4 ramps of Loop-303/I-10 interchange are open.
The stretch of Loop 303 from Happy Valley to US 60 is now just one lane in each direction for construction.
Prepping for the El Mirage interchange?
Quote from: swbrotha100 on October 04, 2014, 07:38:05 PM
The stretch of Loop 303 from Happy Valley to US 60 is now just one lane in each direction for construction.
I was on the Loop 101 Agua Fria Freeway last Saturday, and I have noticed that all of the ramp meters have been covered up. I wonder what is the reason. Google doesn't tell me anything.
BTW, I wonder why Loop 202 does not have the ramp meters. I-10, I-17, Loop 101, SR 51, and US 60 all have them, so why would Loop 202 be the only exception (not counting Loop 303, which isn't a complete freeway yet)?
Most of the ramp meters on Loop 101 Agua Fria were recently installed, so they have never been on before. If you go to the ADOT website, they're doing stuff for the freeway management system.
Loop 202 Red Mountain has ramp meters between the Ministack and Loop 101
Quote from: Sonic99 on October 04, 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Prepping for the El Mirage interchange?
Quote from: swbrotha100 on October 04, 2014, 07:38:05 PM
The stretch of Loop 303 from Happy Valley to US 60 is now just one lane in each direction for construction.
Most likely. My mother lives in Sun City West in a subdivision next to Loop 303, and when I leave her house, I use Deer Valley Road to the new little side street connecting it with the new stretch of El Mirage. I turn left on El Mirage and go all the way to where it ends, then turn right onto the 303 and get off at the first exit which I think is Happy Valley Road. I know the stretch of the 303 between El Mirage and Happy Valley is one lane in each direction, with no Jersey barrier down the middle of the road.
I guess they're waiting for somebody to be killed in a head-on collision.
It seems that the Loop freeways in Phoenix are going to have a lot of work over the next few years. Loop 101 (Pima) is gaining a general lane in both directions from Loop 202 (Red Mountain) to Shea Blvd. Work is starting this weekend on Loop 202 (Red Mountain) to add a general purpose lane from the Loop 101 (Pima/Price) interchange to Gilbert Rd, and an HOV lane in both directions from the current HOV lane terminus at Gilbert Rd to Broadway Rd. With the Loop 202 (South Mountain) final environmental impact statement currently up for public review, it seems likely that the South Mountain Freeway will finally begin construction next year. ADOT is in the process of acquiring homes along Pecos Rd to make way for the Loop 202. Loop 303 is completed north of I-10 to Bell Rd and work is beginning to widen the portion from Bell Rd to Happy Valley Pkwy to full freeway standards.
Lots of construction ahead.
It seems that ADOT is looking to avoid all the long waiting to start freeway construction, or widening projects. They are getting started almost as soon as funding allows it.
With the Loop 202 Red Mountain widening project in Mesa, I wonder if ramp meters will be added to that section. Much of Loop 202 doesn't have ramp meters installed except for the Phoenix and Tempe portions of the Red Mountain Freeway as stated earlier.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on November 03, 2014, 01:19:47 PM
With the Loop 202 Red Mountain widening project in Mesa, I wonder if ramp meters will be added to that section. Much of Loop 202 doesn't have ramp meters installed except for the Phoenix and Tempe portions of the Red Mountain Freeway as stated earlier.
ADOT lists Freeway Management System (FMS) improvements as part of the project description, but that is still sort of cryptic. In my opinion it would make sense to add ramp meters at least to Gilbert Road. The portion of the Red Mountain Freeway gaining a general lane will be a 10 lane freeway. I think the traffic volume warrants it and traffic isn't so bogged down already so meters may have a noticeable effect. I used to drive the Red Mountain Freeway from Tempe to east Mesa daily in the past and I think that ramp meters could actually help some of the traffic caused from barrages of cars entering the freeway at once. I believe ADOT is also adding auxiliary lanes between Alma School Road and McKellips Road. That is a really short distance, especially eastbound. I wonder how they will rebuild the McKellips eastbound exit to accommodate the auxiliary lane.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on November 03, 2014, 03:20:52 AM
It seems that ADOT is looking to avoid all the long waiting to start freeway construction, or widening projects. They are getting started almost as soon as funding allows it.
Yeah, they seem to be on a roll with getting funding and projects started and completed. I remember reading that the Red Mountain Freeway widening project is beginning about a year ahead of its planned start because of some sort of federal funding that could only be secured sooner rather than later.
Speaking of the South Mountain Freeway (Loop 202), an article from Oct 16, 2014:
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/10/16/adot-seeks-teams-for-1-8b-loop-202-south-mountain.html
QuoteArizona Department of Transportation is looking for teams to design, build and maintain the $1.8 billion South Mountain extension of Loop 202. ADOT plans to review qualifications and create a short list of teams to submit the proposal to build the 17-mile freeway. Loop 202 South Mountain will run from near 59th Avenue and Interstate 10 in southwest Phoenix to Loop 202-Interstate 10 interchange at the Phoenix-Chandler border.
The request is generated by the first unsolicited highway development proposal ever submitted to ADOT. South Mountain Development Group (SMDG) — a joint venture of Kiewit Development Co., Kiewit Infrastructure West Co., Sundt Construction, Inc. and Parsons Corp. — proposed in 2013 to design, build and finance the freeway. Tom Janssen, Kiewit director of external communications, said at the time that building the freeway all at once would be less expensive than typical methods. Prior to the SMDG proposal, ADOT would have constructed the freeway in segments and phases. The joint venture team said it would be far more efficient to build it at one time. ADOT spent nearly a year reviewing the unsolicited proposal before electing to go with a design-build-maintain approach.
How does the money work for design-build-maintain on a non-tolled road? Design-build on a public road is no big stretch to understand since it ultimately ends up in the hands of the state, and design-build-maintain on a private toll road is logical since toll revenue can pay for maintenance, but I'm not familiar with how funding for maintenance would be handled on a non-tolled road. Would ADOT pay a set amount of money annually for that? Or does the contractor try to predict their costs for however many years into the future and work it into the primary contract, and then keep any leftover as profit, or eat any overage as loss?
Sorry to bump an old thread, but with the past subject of ramp meters, today I noticed a newly installed ramp meter at Loop 202 SanTan Freeway and Dobson Road in Chandler. It hasn't been activated yet, since the signals were covered up. The other interchanges east of Dobson do not have them yet, so I wonder if there are plans to install them at other ramps on the SanTan Freeway, or is it only for this particular ramp.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on March 25, 2015, 01:21:17 AM
Sorry to bump an old thread, but with the past subject of ramp meters, today I noticed a newly installed ramp meter at Loop 202 SanTan Freeway and Dobson Road in Chandler. It hasn't been activated yet, since the signals were covered up. The other interchanges east of Dobson do not have them yet, so I wonder if there are plans to install them at other ramps on the SanTan Freeway, or is it only for this particular ramp.
You asked about ramp meters on Loop 202 Red Mountain a while back and it seems that they might be installed as part of the widening project. I've noticed loop detectors being placed on entrance ramps east of Loop 101 now that most ramp re-alignment is near completion. Supports for dynamic message boards are also being constructed at ~3 mile intervals east of the existing message boards. This map (http://adot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=5062ba430a5746cd8a1b6bdc1ae3194e) shows locations for the future Red Mountain freeway boards, and the recently installed message boards around the I-10/Loop 202 stack.
Speaking of ADOT's Freeway Management System, it appears that as of today, ADOT has included several more VMSs in their Travel Time displays. ADOT now appears to be posting travel times at almost every other VMS in a certain direction (unlike before where it could be every 3rd or 4th VMS).
Quote from: ztonyg on July 27, 2015, 09:42:32 PM
Speaking of ADOT's Freeway Management System, it appears that as of today, ADOT has included several more VMSs in their Travel Time displays. ADOT now appears to be posting travel times at almost every other VMS in a certain direction (unlike before where it could be every 3rd or 4th VMS).
I've noticed this. It seems that travel times are being displayed for longer hours, too.
^ The message boards will now display travel times 7 days a week, with extended hours.
QuoteThe expanded program began on Mon., July 27. Message boards are now displaying the estimated travel times seven days a week, from 5 a.m. to 11 p.m. weekdays and 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. on weekends.
http://www.azdot.gov/media/News/news-release/2015/07/29/adot-expands-hours-and-days-when-travel-times-are-displayed-above-phoenix-area-freeways (http://www.azdot.gov/media/News/news-release/2015/07/29/adot-expands-hours-and-days-when-travel-times-are-displayed-above-phoenix-area-freeways)
Quote from: blanketcomputer on July 29, 2015, 02:31:54 AM
Quote from: ztonyg on July 27, 2015, 09:42:32 PM
Speaking of ADOT's Freeway Management System, it appears that as of today, ADOT has included several more VMSs in their Travel Time displays. ADOT now appears to be posting travel times at almost every other VMS in a certain direction (unlike before where it could be every 3rd or 4th VMS).
I've noticed this. It seems that travel times are being displayed for longer hours, too.
Same here.
The Phoenix area isn't planning any more loops is it? Like a Loop 404?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 10, 2015, 04:07:27 PM
The Phoenix area isn't planning any more loops is it? Like a Loop 404?
The completion of 303 and the extension of 202 are the only things I'm aware of. Not sure what else they'd need in the way of loop freeways.
Quote from: roadfro on August 10, 2015, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 10, 2015, 04:07:27 PM
The Phoenix area isn't planning any more loops is it? Like a Loop 404?
The completion of 303 and the extension of 202 are the only things I'm aware of. Not sure what else they'd need in the way of loop freeways.
Water Tower Loop 1001!
To be serious I agree that no new loop freeways are needed besides the things listed.
The big projects on the horizon are AZ 30 (I-10 reliever on the west side), a US 60 bypass of Gold Canyon, a north/south freeway connecting US 60 in the vicinity of Apache Junction to I-10 in the vicinity of AZ 87, an extension of AZ 24 east to that new freeway and on to the vicinity of the US 60/AZ 79 interchange, and whatever ends up happening with I-11.
Speaking of Phoenix-area freeways, what are the plans for that short little stub of a freeway at the southeast corner of Loop 202 by the Phoenix-Mesa airport?
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 11, 2015, 04:24:32 PM
Speaking of Phoenix-area freeways, what are the plans for that short little stub of a freeway at the southeast corner of Loop 202 by the Phoenix-Mesa airport?
The next phase of SR 24 will go to Meridian Road, but is currently unfunded and won't be complete until at least 2026. The third and final phase will be in Pinal County up to the future Pinal North-South Freeway, although a date and specific alignment are currently unknown.
This is probably a bit of specific question, but does anyone know anything about a dip in the road on Loop 202 Red Mountain near Higley Road? This is the location https://goo.gl/maps/dCjNJ but it it hardly noticeable on street view. Eastbound, it is a very noticeable dip down a few inches, and about 200 feet later it jumps sharply back up.
This dip has has existed for years, but I am not 100% certain that it always existed. Does anyone remember this dip existing when Loop 202 was constructed or was it some sort of damage the occurred after the fact? In the last few weeks orange 'Dip' advisory signs popped up, even though the dip has existed for long as I remember. It appears they are rebuilding this dip and another section near Val Vista as part of the HOV lane project. Traffic is shifted on to the newly paved median and the old lanes are blocked off and are being reconstructed.
I don't currently live in the Valley, but your Google Maps link showed me something I found fascinating. The 202 is under construction all the way from the 101 interchange by Riverview Park all the way around to Broadway out in East Mesa with adding general use and HOV lanes. I can't think of a prior project that had that length of freeway under construction at the same time. Those projects are usually in shorter, smaller sections.
Also, noticed a bit of a screw up on ADOT's part, something I thought they were better about. Where the general-use lanes are being added, the overpasses at Dobson, Alma School, McKellips, and Country Club weren't built to accommodate them, so new extensions of the bridge have to be added. I thought they had done better about making the overpasses ready for the future. A bit of shortsightedness by ADOT, there.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 17, 2015, 01:57:21 AM
I don't currently live in the Valley, but your Google Maps link showed me something I found fascinating. The 202 is under construction all the way from the 101 interchange by Riverview Park all the way around to Broadway out in East Mesa with adding general use and HOV lanes. I can't think of a prior project that had that length of freeway under construction at the same time. Those projects are usually in shorter, smaller sections.
Also, noticed a bit of a screw up on ADOT's part, something I thought they were better about. Where the general-use lanes are being added, the overpasses at Dobson, Alma School, McKellips, and Country Club weren't built to accommodate them, so new extensions of the bridge have to be added. I thought they had done better about making the overpasses ready for the future. A bit of shortsightedness by ADOT, there.
The general purpose lanes are only being added between Loop 101 and Gilbert Road, and the HOV lanes are being added from Gilbert Road (where they currently end) to Broadway. They were separate, smaller projects not originally intended to be grouped together. Federal funding was secured for the HOV lane project and it was expedited by a few years, grouped with general purpose lanes, and bid as one project, giving us the 18 miles of continuous construction.
Bridge widening is common place for adding general purpose lanes and is hardly a screw up by ADOT. The freeway held its required capacity for almost 20 years and now the bridges need to be widened. I don't think that is shortsighted.
Quote from: blanketcomputer on August 17, 2015, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 17, 2015, 01:57:21 AM
I don't currently live in the Valley, but your Google Maps link showed me something I found fascinating. The 202 is under construction all the way from the 101 interchange by Riverview Park all the way around to Broadway out in East Mesa with adding general use and HOV lanes. I can't think of a prior project that had that length of freeway under construction at the same time. Those projects are usually in shorter, smaller sections.
Also, noticed a bit of a screw up on ADOT's part, something I thought they were better about. Where the general-use lanes are being added, the overpasses at Dobson, Alma School, McKellips, and Country Club weren't built to accommodate them, so new extensions of the bridge have to be added. I thought they had done better about making the overpasses ready for the future. A bit of shortsightedness by ADOT, there.
The general purpose lanes are only being added between Loop 101 and Gilbert Road, and the HOV lanes are being added from Gilbert Road (where they currently end) to Broadway. They were separate, smaller projects not originally intended to be grouped together. Federal funding was secured for the HOV lane project and it was expedited by a few years, grouped with general purpose lanes, and bid as one project, giving us the 18 miles of continuous construction.
Bridge widening is common place for adding general purpose lanes and is hardly a screw up by ADOT. The freeway held its required capacity for almost 20 years and now the bridges need to be widened. I don't think that is shortsighted.
Holy crap, has it really been almost 20 years? I guess my time is just blurring by me, it seems like just recently that the 202 was being built out there. But now that I think about it, yeah, it's been that long. Wow, time flies, huh?
Yep, Loop 202 was completed to County Club by 1998, so the bridges being widened are at least 17 or 18 years old besides the Country Club bridge which was built when Loop 202 was extended to Gilbert Road in 2000/2001.
Quote from: blanketcomputer on August 16, 2015, 10:57:53 PM
This is probably a bit of specific question, but does anyone know anything about a dip in the road on Loop 202 Red Mountain near Higley Road? This is the location https://goo.gl/maps/dCjNJ but it it hardly noticeable on street view. Eastbound, it is a very noticeable dip down a few inches, and about 200 feet later it jumps sharply back up.
This dip has has existed for years, but I am not 100% certain that it always existed. Does anyone remember this dip existing when Loop 202 was constructed or was it some sort of damage the occurred after the fact? In the last few weeks orange 'Dip' advisory signs popped up, even though the dip has existed for long as I remember. It appears they are rebuilding this dip and another section near Val Vista as part of the HOV lane project. Traffic is shifted on to the newly paved median and the old lanes are blocked off and are being reconstructed.
I had briefly heard of possible fissures (?) or soil issues along some portions of the Loop 202 Red Mountain section at the time of initial construction.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 17, 2015, 01:57:21 AM
Also, noticed a bit of a screw up on ADOT's part, something I thought they were better about. Where the general-use lanes are being added, the overpasses at Dobson, Alma School, McKellips, and Country Club weren't built to accommodate them, so new extensions of the bridge have to be added. I thought they had done better about making the overpasses ready for the future. A bit of shortsightedness by ADOT, there.
ADOT usually builds its overpasses wide enough to accommodate future HOV lanes in the median. At least, this is what I've observed in the Phoenix area. There are exceptions, mostly along Loop 303.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 18, 2015, 02:08:45 PM
I had briefly heard of possible fissures (?) or soil issues along some portions of the Loop 202 Red Mountain section at the time of initial construction.
The only fissure I remember was one that crossed the freeway around Main Street in east Mesa, but you very well could be right. Construction crews have ripped out the old roadway and are working on deep soil mixing.
I previously talked about potential Interstate designations for the existing freeways, so if the future freeways were also to become Interstates, here are potential designations:
- Gateway Freeway (SR 24) - Interstate 710
- I-10 Reliever (SR 30) - Interstate 610
- Pinal North-South Freeway - Interstate 310
If we're going to play the fictional numbers game, then both Gateway and Pinal should have even first digits because both will start and end at another Interstate, while SR 30 could get an even I-x11.
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 20, 2015, 07:28:48 AM
If we're going to play the fictional numbers game, then both Gateway and Pinal should have even first digits because both will start and end at another Interstate, while SR 30 could get an even I-x11.
That means SR 51 would have to get an even first digit as well if Loop 101 becomes I-210. SR 51 after all was once proposed as I-510.
Note that I have heard rumors that at one point that the Interstate designations that were considered for the Phoenix area loops were I-410 for Loop 101, I-810 for Loop 202, and I-617 for Loop 303. I am not sure if there is any truth to these rumors or not.
I believe the southern portion of AZ 51 is still substandard and thus it would be ineligible for Interstate designation, even in fantasy numbering land.
There were definitely ideas of numbering some of the freeways as 3dis. Loop 202 was actually going to be 217 at one point, likely a remnant of the days when I-10 was planned to follow the Maricopa Freeway and continue west at what is now the Durango Curve. Not sure about 303 - the idea for it came along much later than the others so it may have been after the decision was made to abandon the 3di numbering.
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 20, 2015, 08:28:35 PM
I believe the southern portion of AZ 51 is still substandard and thus it would be ineligible for Interstate designation, even in fantasy numbering land.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@33.4718894,-112.0384467,3a,24.7y,2.11h,89.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sY9dqxmPyI5BJZYSHNgF4wQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DY9dqxmPyI5BJZYSHNgF4wQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D50.85265%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Like this? Because of the small shoulders.
Yes. I also think there might be some issues with sightlines on some of the curves and the up and down it does for some of the overpasses. The original configuration of the Superstition had the same problems, though that was all flattened out when they did the widening.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 20, 2015, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 20, 2015, 07:28:48 AM
If we're going to play the fictional numbers game, then both Gateway and Pinal should have even first digits because both will start and end at another Interstate, while SR 30 could get an even I-x11.
That means SR 51 would have to get an even first digit as well if Loop 101 becomes I-210. SR 51 after all was once proposed as I-510.
Note that I have heard rumors that at one point that the Interstate designations that were considered for the Phoenix area loops were I-410 for Loop 101, I-810 for Loop 202, and I-617 for Loop 303. I am not sure if there is any truth to these rumors or not.
I think I may have made one of those rumors.
As AZ 210 already exists (in Tucson), I felt that Loop 101 would be I-410, Loop 202 would be I-610, AZ 51 would be I-510 (as it would act as a "spur" to downtown Phoenix from I-410, and Loop 303 would be I-217. The Superstition could also become I-110 or I-310 (although unnecessary). AZ 24 could be I-710 and the Northern Parkway could be I-117 or I-317. Of course, this is all a fictional world.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 18, 2015, 02:08:45 PM
Quote from: blanketcomputer on August 16, 2015, 10:57:53 PM
This is probably a bit of specific question, but does anyone know anything about a dip in the road on Loop 202 Red Mountain near Higley Road? This is the location https://goo.gl/maps/dCjNJ but it it hardly noticeable on street view. Eastbound, it is a very noticeable dip down a few inches, and about 200 feet later it jumps sharply back up.
This dip has has existed for years, but I am not 100% certain that it always existed. Does anyone remember this dip existing when Loop 202 was constructed or was it some sort of damage the occurred after the fact? In the last few weeks orange 'Dip' advisory signs popped up, even though the dip has existed for long as I remember. It appears they are rebuilding this dip and another section near Val Vista as part of the HOV lane project. Traffic is shifted on to the newly paved median and the old lanes are blocked off and are being reconstructed.
I had briefly heard of possible fissures (?) or soil issues along some portions of the Loop 202 Red Mountain section at the time of initial construction.
Would this have anything to do with the bridge that collapsed
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 18, 2015, 02:08:45 PM
Quote from: blanketcomputer on August 16, 2015, 10:57:53 PM
This is probably a bit of specific question, but does anyone know anything about a dip in the road on Loop 202 Red Mountain near Higley Road? This is the location https://goo.gl/maps/dCjNJ but it it hardly noticeable on street view. Eastbound, it is a very noticeable dip down a few inches, and about 200 feet later it jumps sharply back up.
This dip has has existed for years, but I am not 100% certain that it always existed. Does anyone remember this dip existing when Loop 202 was constructed or was it some sort of damage the occurred after the fact? In the last few weeks orange 'Dip' advisory signs popped up, even though the dip has existed for long as I remember. It appears they are rebuilding this dip and another section near Val Vista as part of the HOV lane project. Traffic is shifted on to the newly paved median and the old lanes are blocked off and are being reconstructed.
I had briefly heard of possible fissures (?) or soil issues along some portions of the Loop 202 Red Mountain section at the time of initial construction.
Would this have anything to do with the bridge that collapsed on the eastern part of the 202 Red Mountain while it was under construction in 2007?
LGLS740
Quote from: TheStack on August 23, 2015, 01:41:25 PM
Would this have anything to do with the bridge that collapsed on the eastern part of the 202 Red Mountain while it was under construction in 2007?
LGLS740
No, that portion was further east, near Power Road, over the CAP canal and the Spook Hill flood retardation structure. Untied girders fell off of the support columns.
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 20, 2015, 08:28:35 PM
I believe the southern portion of AZ 51 is still substandard and thus it would be ineligible for Interstate designation, even in fantasy numbering land.
There were definitely ideas of numbering some of the freeways as 3dis. Loop 202 was actually going to be 217 at one point, likely a remnant of the days when I-10 was planned to follow the Maricopa Freeway and continue west at what is now the Durango Curve. Not sure about 303 - the idea for it came along much later than the others so it may have been after the decision was made to abandon the 3di numbering.
From looking at Loop 303 planning PDFs, ADOT first proposed SR 517 for Loop 303. 117 and 417 were once proposed for current Loop 101.
I was on the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway in Mesa today, and it looks like the construction from Loop 101 to Gilbert Road is practically finished, however, for some reason the speed limit is still reduced. Also, I don't know if this is a first for Arizona, but that portion of Loop 202 uses narrow exit gore signs (the type where the arrow is below the exit number).
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 08, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
I was on the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway in Mesa today, and it looks like the construction from Loop 101 to Gilbert Road is practically finished, however, for some reason the speed limit is still reduced. Also, I don't know if this is a first for Arizona, but that portion of Loop 202 uses narrow exit gore signs (the type where the arrow is below the exit number).
The "narrow exit gore signs" first popped up on I-17 (between Northern Ave and the I-10 stack) about 3-4 months ago.
Quote from: ztonyg on October 09, 2015, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 08, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
I was on the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway in Mesa today, and it looks like the construction from Loop 101 to Gilbert Road is practically finished, however, for some reason the speed limit is still reduced. Also, I don't know if this is a first for Arizona, but that portion of Loop 202 uses narrow exit gore signs (the type where the arrow is below the exit number).
The "narrow exit gore signs" first popped up on I-17 (between Northern Ave and the I-10 stack) about 3-4 months ago.
Interesting to know. I rarely go out that way since I live and work in the East Valley. I wonder if the South Mountain Freeway (if built) will also use this style of gore sign.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 09, 2015, 02:58:48 PM
Quote from: ztonyg on October 09, 2015, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 08, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
I was on the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway in Mesa today, and it looks like the construction from Loop 101 to Gilbert Road is practically finished, however, for some reason the speed limit is still reduced. Also, I don't know if this is a first for Arizona, but that portion of Loop 202 uses narrow exit gore signs (the type where the arrow is below the exit number).
The "narrow exit gore signs" first popped up on I-17 (between Northern Ave and the I-10 stack) about 3-4 months ago.
Interesting to know. I rarely go out that way since I live and work in the East Valley. I wonder if the South Mountain Freeway (if built) will also use this style of gore sign.
I-10 exit 122 (Perryville Rd) was the first instance where I saw gore signs like this. Don't know what ADOT plans on doing when replacing gore signs in the future.
The narrow exit signs on Loop 202 Red Mountain might just be a contractor choice. The sign for the new exit off US 60 at Meridian Rd is the wider sign with the arrow to the right of the number. I don't know if ADOT has any preference on the exit signs. The mix of overhead and side-mounted ramp meters on Loop 202 Red Mountain is kinda peculiar too. I wonder if there is some sort of guideline to picking or if it was just right-of-way issues.
The reduced speed limit on Loop 202 Red Mountain should be over soon. The new HOV lanes just need to be striped, and a few other spots are missing thermoplastic striping and reflective markers. It took less than a year for 20 new lane miles to be constructed.
I found out that the narrow exit gore signs are in fact the new ADOT preference for urban freeways, but only if part of a major reconstruction or mass sign replacement, so I guess the South Mountain Freeway will also have this style as well. Existing urban freeways (except if reconstructed or part of a mass sign replacement), as well as all rural freeways (new or existing) will continue to use the traditional wide exit gore signs.
Also, I wonder which interchanges on the Loop 202 SanTan Freeway will get ramp meters. I would probably say that Arizona Avenue, Gilbert Road, and Val Vista Drive are the three most likely.
Spent Christmas in Phoenix and San Diego this year, meaning I got a good first hand look at Loop 303. The El Mirage interchange is mostly constructed and looks like besides adding the barriers on the overpasses, is almost good to go. 303 traffic is in the mean time directed to use the eastbound exit ramps at the under construction El Mirage interchange. The US 60 interchange however still has a ton of work to go. They finished building the new bridge, only to tear apart the pre-existing overpass at Grand Avenue and are now building another one from scratch. Currently, 303 traffic is using the future eastbound freeway overpass. No sign of the proposed exit ramps being built as of yet. As for El Mirage to I-17, several proposed overpasses are left unbuilt as well as future exit/flyover ramps onto I-17, but the final link Sonoran Desert Drive from 303 to the pre-existing segment east of I-17 is almost finished and has street lamps installed. Though Wikipedia states construction on 303 south towards Yuma Road should have started in 2015, there are no signs of construction at all from I-10 south. Also, ADOT is slowly beginning to reopen long closed exits at Loop 101 as the widening project winds to a close.
Quote from: 707 on January 05, 2016, 05:03:32 PM
They finished building the new bridge, only to tear apart the pre-existing overpass at Grand Avenue and are now building another one from scratch.
Huh? That's weird. They never said in the project overview that they were going to rebuild the existing bridge, only that they were constructing a new one right beside it. I wonder if they were planning this all along or if something caused them to change their minds. I know the old bridge wasn't as wide as the new one though.
I've driven the 303 a couple times now, and I gotta say , ADOT did a mighty fine job with constructing the freeway south of US-60 to I-10. It looks like it was paved by angels :clap:
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on January 05, 2016, 10:49:26 PM
Quote from: 707 on January 05, 2016, 05:03:32 PM
They finished building the new bridge, only to tear apart the pre-existing overpass at Grand Avenue and are now building another one from scratch.
Huh? That's weird. They never said in the project overview that they were going to rebuild the existing bridge, only that they were constructing a new one right beside it. I wonder if they were planning this all along or if something caused them to change their minds. I know the old bridge wasn't as wide as the new one though.
I've driven the 303 a couple times now, and I gotta say , ADOT did a mighty fine job with constructing the freeway south of US-60 to I-10. It looks like it was paved by angels :clap:
They say they're rebuilding the existing bridge where I've read too. But seeing it up close looks like they are literally rebuilding the entire thing. If anything's left of the old bridge, it would be the pilings, because everything from the actual roadbed up has been torn away.
But I agree. Loop 303 is a real wonderful freeway where they've finished it.