https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE_zH5_piCw
Here is one for Jen On the Move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Kaeewn9QU
Now Jen on the Move does a tour of M62 in the snow!
Random, but I just noticed this: the bridges over the M4 approaching to the Prince of Wales Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5810374,-2.7785742,3a,59.5y,282.43h,97.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKjUDwCWz_UIF2BYZxjrFPA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) appear to be encased with... fiberglass panels? or some other nonstructural material. The ones carrying the M4 are simple concrete beams for the short spans and steel plate girders for the longer ones. If they're in fact encased, is there a reason other than aesthetics? Britain is fully capable of building similar-looking structures out of exposed concrete or steel. And what's under the encasements?
Tom Scott does a segment on the UK's most dangerous intersection.https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/ipley-crossroads-campaign (https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/ipley-crossroads-campaign)
https://singletrackworld.com/2018/01/collision-course-why-this-type-of-road-junction-will-keep-killing-cyclists/ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU)
Tom Scott does a segment on one of the UK's oldest roads.
Quote from: Tom958 on March 29, 2020, 09:55:59 AM
Random, but I just noticed this: the bridges over the M4 approaching to the Prince of Wales Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5810374,-2.7785742,3a,59.5y,282.43h,97.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKjUDwCWz_UIF2BYZxjrFPA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) appear to be encased with... fiberglass panels? or some other nonstructural material. The ones carrying the M4 are simple concrete beams for the short spans and steel plate girders for the longer ones. If they're in fact encased, is there a reason other than aesthetics? Britain is fully capable of building similar-looking structures out of exposed concrete or steel. And what's under the encasements?
I've tried to find an answer for you, not had much luck - but it is probably just an aesthetics thing. In the 1990s we had a sudden heel-turn about what motorways should look like and a few experiments were made with the few lengths that opened that decade. Locally to me on the M65 (the final section finished in 1997) all the bridges used steel I beams and concrete - the beams were all painted blue.
The M4 and M48 over the Severn are considered some of the highlights of the entire network, so no surprise some effort was spent on the bridges - normally cost cutting means we go for the most basic design going.
A14 goes through demolition. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZHbYn24XU)
Here is a Tour on the A500. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOBNPZHihS8)
Jen on the Move does a tour on A6196
Jen On the Move does a tour on M66 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxRaeik1wWQ)
Tom Scott strikes again, this time driving from London to Margate to visualize the difference between a million and a billion:
Quote from: Roadsguy on July 13, 2020, 05:15:50 PM
Tom Scott strikes again, this time driving from London to Margate
That photo-enforced 50mph sure seems like a contender for the "Most Terrible Speed Limits" thread.
Jen on the move does a segment on the A465 in the UK
Jen on the Move does a tour on Houlton, Rugby
Here is a Tour of London area viaducts by Jen on the Move.
Here is a tour of the A34.
Here is a tour of the M26.
Here is a tour of the M4 bridge.
Here is a tour of the M57.
Here is a tour of the Erskine Bridge.
Here is a tour of the M181.
Here is a cool street tour
Road Opening for Congleton Link Road
https://youtu.be/jeYzRwLTM9o
Here is the bike path by Jenonthemove.
This crew is cool because they include bike routes in their roadgeek videos.
Quote from: bing101 on May 09, 2021, 08:47:18 PM
Sooooo, lemme get this straight. They added a roundabout in the middle of a motorway, and to get around that not meeting motorway standards, ended the motorway at the roundabout and designated a second one after it? Like, say, addressing an at-grade intersection on I-10 by ending I-10 at it and saying I-110 begins after it?
If that's not on that Pathetic Motorways site, it needs to be.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 09, 2021, 09:03:26 PM
Sooooo, lemme get this straight. They added a roundabout in the middle of a motorway, and to get around that not meeting motorway standards, ended the motorway at the roundabout and designated a second one after it? Like, say, addressing an at-grade intersection on I-10 by ending I-10 at it and saying I-110 begins after it?
If that's not on that Pathetic Motorways site, it needs to be.
It is on the Pathetic Motorways site (but for reasons predating this change!).
As this giant new housing estate is built out, two new roundabouts will be added, truncating the M181 each time, along with other changes like at-grade pedestrian crossings. I suspect that the A1077(M) signage is in error though, because the plan supposedly is for the road to become regular old A1077, as it will no longer be a motorway. Perhaps the A1077(M) designation is temporary? I can't imagine why though.
Cool Roadgeek video on bike.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 09, 2021, 09:03:26 PMSooooo, lemme get this straight. They added a roundabout in the middle of a motorway, and to get around that not meeting motorway standards, ended the motorway at the roundabout and designated a second one after it? Like, say, addressing an at-grade intersection on I-10 by ending I-10 at it and saying I-110 begins after it?
If that's not on that Pathetic Motorways site, it needs to be.
As you know about Pathetic Motorways, you know that there's no problem with roundabouts on motorways (which is a legal concept, not a set of standards).
What happened was that, the roundabout completed, Highways England handed over the northern bit to North Lincolnshire Council as planned (though North Lincolnshire didn't seem to realise). As the side roads off the roundabout weren't open, the removal of motorway status that was meant to accompany the detrunking has been delayed as it leads unescapably to a motorway (good practise, rarely seen these days).
The renumbering, however, is weird. There was no reason why it couldn't have stayed M181 until the side roads opened. I presume it's as it will be A1077 soon, and the change in number helps make clear there's a change in ownership (even though that's not done anywhere else in the UK).
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 11, 2021, 02:35:08 PMI suspect that the A1077(M) signage is in error though, because the plan supposedly is for the road to become regular old A1077, as it will no longer be a motorway. Perhaps the A1077(M) designation is temporary? I can't imagine why though.
It's not an error (though the signs are mostly awful...), but a surprising rare piece of good practise.
The designation is temporary - when you can turn down the A1077(M) from the A18/A1077 and be able to avoid ending up on the M181, then the motorway status will go.
Thanks for the explanation. Although I've done a fair bit of reading about UK roads, they do have a tendency to hurt my head at times. :spin: It makes sense that the road would retain the motorway restrictions since there's no place to go but to a road with motorway restrictions, but to roadgeeks on this side of the pond, it can be a little hard to grasp that what makes a road a "motorway" isn't the design standards of the road itself, but things like minimum speed limits and the banning of non-motorised vehicles.
Theoretically, could you have a road that was to western-US "expressway" standards (divided road with at-grade intersections but no other direct access, i.e. from private driveways) carry an M number if whichever agency is responsible for enacting motorway restrictions chose to do so? (Are motorway restrictions enacted by Parliament or through the actions of Highways England and/or local councils?)
Here is a tour of the M5.
Here is a tour of the A465.
Here is a Tour of the A465
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 01, 2021, 07:16:30 PM
Thanks for the explanation. Although I've done a fair bit of reading about UK roads, they do have a tendency to hurt my head at times. :spin: It makes sense that the road would retain the motorway restrictions since there's no place to go but to a road with motorway restrictions, but to roadgeeks on this side of the pond, it can be a little hard to grasp that what makes a road a "motorway" isn't the design standards of the road itself, but things like minimum speed limits and the banning of non-motorised vehicles.
Even UK roadgeeks struggle!
There isn't a minimum speed limit on a motorway, beyond a 'no stopping' rule (obviously with exemptions). Pretty sure it's only a handful of tunnels that have minimum speed limits in the UK.
QuoteTheoretically, could you have a road that was to western-US "expressway" standards (divided road with at-grade intersections but no other direct access, i.e. from private driveways) carry an M number if whichever agency is responsible for enacting motorway restrictions chose to do so?
Yes. But the motorway restrictions would have to end at the cross-streets and restart again to allow prohibited vehicles to still use the cross-streets.
You'd probably keep it all 'Special Road', but have little bits where other classes of traffic can use it at junctions, but only Classes I and II between junctions (and thus make it a motorway). Even if not making it a motorway, it quite a good idea for any major new-build road to have it as a Special Road as it bans frontages and digging up for utilities, and makes it easier to ban pedestrians, etc (who'd otherwise have a legal right to use the new road, rather than being specifically allowed to use it per the Special Roads Order, meaning more hoops to jump through to restrict them).
Transport Scotland gets the idea and does tend to use it when building greenfield trunk roads. Highways England struggles with the idea that it might be wise to explicitly ban non-motorised traffic from a new-build 6-lane 70mph very busy expressway (they finally realised on the A14 scheme after about a decade of being seemingly unaware that it was an issue - and had to rush through legal orders as the road was due to open in a few months!), so even if they grasped the concept of Special Roads (they don't seem to have) they would be unlikely to use them.
Quote(Are motorway restrictions enacted by Parliament or through the actions of Highways England and/or local councils?)
It's done by secondary legislation. If the road is trunk in England then its a UK Statutory Instrument and done by a senior civil servant at Highways England or the Department of Transport on behalf of the Secretary of State for Transport (eg this recent one for new slip roads off the M58 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/596/made)). Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland have devolved Statutory Instruments, local councils can publish local legislation (annoyingly the local stuff doesn't appear on the legislation.gov.uk website). All such legislation is laid before the relevant legislature for a period, with them allowed to debate and veto it if they so wish (very rare that they do).
Here is a tour of the A30 and A303 near Stonehenge.
Here is a tour of the M25 beltway.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 01, 2021, 07:16:30 PM
Thanks for the explanation. Although I've done a fair bit of reading about UK roads, they do have a tendency to hurt my head at times. :spin: It makes sense that the road would retain the motorway restrictions since there's no place to go but to a road with motorway restrictions, but to roadgeeks on this side of the pond, it can be a little hard to grasp that what makes a road a "motorway" isn't the design standards of the road itself, but things like minimum speed limits and the banning of non-motorised vehicles.
Theoretically, could you have a road that was to western-US "expressway" standards (divided road with at-grade intersections but no other direct access, i.e. from private driveways) carry an M number if whichever agency is responsible for enacting motorway restrictions chose to do so? (Are motorway restrictions enacted by Parliament or through the actions of Highways England and/or local councils?)
Yes, the first thing anyone wanting to understand UK motorways is whilst there are design standards, these do not need to be followed to qualify for a motorway designation as it's the legal paperwork that determines what is and isn't a motorway. There simply isn't someone sat at a desk going "hang on buddy, you've not provided x, y, and z, so you can't have funding" in the same way the FHWA and AASHTO have.
The other thing is those in charge of sorting out the paperwork for such things are now generally consultants from all over the world and don't know (or don't care about) the ins and outs of the Special Roads legislation governing motorways, hence why we only ever seem to build new routes as A-roads - someone tried to get the new A14 converted to A14(M) (when M14 would have been far better, mind) but this fell flat so we now have the stupid situation of a road that is a motorway being signed as an A road with the exact same prohibitions as a motorway.
It would be entirely legally possible to have an at-grade motorway, provided classes of traffic banned from motorways can cross it - this is why the A1077(M) has appeared. I suppose the nearest analogy is Wyoming's I-180, but you'd have to pretend cyclists and pedestrians were banned from each individual block between signals.
One of my roles as a traffic engineer over here is helping out clients with legal orders - they usually get basics like parking restrictions wrong so this stuff involving moving traffic just causes meltdowns in my experience.
The oft proposed fixed link between Northern Ireland and Scotland was supported by British PM Boris Johnson. A month ago the project was canceled. Still, I feel like this is one of those projects that'll eventually get done.
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/09/14/news/plans-for-bridge-between-scotland-and-northern-ireland-scrapped-reports-2447921/ (https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/09/14/news/plans-for-bridge-between-scotland-and-northern-ireland-scrapped-reports-2447921/)
Turns out that the UK's signage for diversions (detours) happens to resemble the symbols from Squid Game:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-58896921
QuoteA police force has joked that a sign on a motorway will not direct drivers to the Netflix sensation Squid Game.
The sign, at Junction 5 of the M4 near Slough, has an uncanny resemblance to symbols that appear in the show.
But Thames Valley Road Policing posted on Twitter: "It's just directions for diversion routes during the road works. Phew!"
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/3BDE/production/_121062351_squid.jpg)
A colleague referred me to the Pathetic Motorways site (new to me, but not to many of you), and the editorial tone seems to be just right.
Example for A61(M) in Sheffield (https://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/a61m/):
Quote
Where is it?
Sheffield.
No, it's not. There's no A61(M) there.
OK, OK. It was meant to be in Sheffield...
Ah, right - another unbuilt motorway.
Yes, that's right.
What's the story then?
The scheme was developed by Sheffield City Engineers Department, and was then inherited by South Yorkshire County Council in 1974, where some of the less ambitious elements continued through...
That would've been quite the bridge to see, but alas, there will be no bridge linking Scotland with Northern Ireland. My guess is that the bridge and/or tunnel would have been at least 30 miles across.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59368707 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59368707)
"Reconstruction of 201 years old Union Chain Bridge gets underway"
https://constructionreviewonline.com/news/reconstruction-of-201-years-old-union-chain-bridge-gets-underway/
Sir Rod Stewart fills some potholes on the road.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCvDQSgxqMA
Article about future UK highway projects:
https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/difficult-decisions-projects-uk
Guardian article on the proposed Motorway Box in London (cancelled in 1973) (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/13/londons-lost-mega-motorway-the-eight-lane-ring-road-that-would-have-destroyed-much-of-the-city)
A judge has denied review requested by an anti-highway group on the A428 Caxton Gibbet to Black Cat Roundabout project.
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/a428-black-cat-caxton-gibbet-26646594
Once finished, this project will create a 4 lane freeway from Milton Keynes to Ipswich. And all that will be needed is another scheme from Milton Keynes to the A34 in Oxford to create an Outer M25.
Excellent news!
The British Government has cancelled all planned "smart motorways", which is where the breakdown lanes are converted into travel lanes, due to safety issues (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65288852).
Quote from: kernals12 on April 08, 2023, 08:40:29 PM
A judge has denied review requested by an anti-highway group on the A428 Caxton Gibbet to Black Cat Roundabout project.
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/a428-black-cat-caxton-gibbet-26646594
Once finished, this project will create a 4 lane freeway from Milton Keynes to Ipswich. And all that will be needed is another scheme from Milton Keynes to the A34 in Oxford to create an Outer M25.
Construction starts at the end of this year
https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2023/05/22/skanska-gets-start-date-for-delayed-507m-a428-dualling-job/
Remarkable that "gibbets" are still English landmarks even today.
Auto Shenanigans is a great YT channel for interesting history about Mororways in the UK. https://www.youtube.com/@AutoShenanigans/videos (https://www.youtube.com/@AutoShenanigans/videos)
One thing that's been bugging me - why are some roads designed as A##(M)? Why not simply M##?
Quote from: vdeane on July 30, 2023, 08:29:14 PM
One thing that's been bugging me - why are some roads designed as A##(M)? Why not simply M##?
M Routes is an equivalent to Interstates in the UK and A Routes are like the UK equivalent of US Routes or State Routes. Thats the impression I've seen in the examples.
Quote from: vdeane on July 30, 2023, 08:29:14 PMOne thing that's been bugging me - why are some roads designed as A##(M)? Why not simply M##?
Routes so numbered are considered continuations of the A-roads of the same number, but developed to motorway standard and subject to motorway regulations. For example, the A1(M) just north of the M25 London orbital is not paralleled by the A1. Instead, it continues as the A1 past Biggleswade, Letchworth Garden City, and St. Neots; then the A1(M) resumes briefly between Alconbury and Peterborough; and so on until Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where the northernmost length of A1(M) ends. (The A1 continues to Edinburgh as an all-purpose road, though some segments are dual carriageway with comprehensive grade separation.)
In practice, however, because of the expectation that a route will be provided for non-motorway traffic, upgrades from all-purpose A-road to motorway that keep the A-road number with the "(M)" suffix tend to have a parallel single-carriageway all-purpose road that is often the original A-road under a different number. This has happened with, e.g., the A74(M) in Scotland, where the B7076 is basically the old A74.
Auto Shenanigans tour of the M8
Article on a new road twinning project in Scotland: https://www.worldhighways.com/wh12/news/scotland-retender-a9-tomatin-moy-work
Here is one the proposed motorways in Cardiff until that was cancelled.
My wife and I (from Maryland in USA) did a driving tour of the UK and Wales in August. We rented a Jeep at Gatwick Airport and yes, the steering wheel was on the right side of the car (towards the center of the road as you drive).
We drove about 800 miles over 10 days, but most of that mileage was in large chunks on a couple days, with some days having very little mileage.
We stayed in Bristol (England) one night, Cardiff (Wales) two nights, Aberystwyth (Wales) one night, Betws-y-Coed (Wales) three nights. At that point we started heading back towards Gatwick Airport, but before we went back there we returned to England and spent three nights in Eveshan/Honeybourne area in the UK.
We did cross the Severn River on the M48 bridge, which was cool.
Another highlight was partially hiking up Mount Snowdonia. The days we were there it was rainy and foggy, and so we did not go all the way to the summit.
I'm not going to try to list all the roads we drove on, but we were on M roads, A roads, and (I believe) B roads, and even narrower roads. As people who are not used to driving on the left side of the road, we were relatively comfortable on the M roads and the A roads. The smaller roads were a different story, being that many of them in places had either stone fences or vertical hedges right next to the road, and many of them had water drain grates on the side of the road which (1) we were not always able to avoid driving over and (2) were not always smooth.
We drove because especially in Wales, there are places we wanted to go which are not served by public transportation.
I believe my wife wants to return and do a similar trip for Scotland. I haven't yet gauged how she feels about doing more driving, though, so I can't say for sure.
Here is profile on the A308.
Here is one from This Week.
Here is more on Motorway gaps in the UK.
Here is more on Motorway gaps in the UK.
Here is one on bad interchange designs in the UK
Quote from: bing101 on December 03, 2023, 08:19:44 PM
Here is a tour of the A64M
The link goes to a YouTube video on how to distribute a press release. No tour of A64M was to be found.
Quote from: zzcarp on December 04, 2023, 02:06:08 PMQuote from: bing101 on December 03, 2023, 08:19:44 PMHere is a tour of the A64M
The link goes to a YouTube video on how to distribute a press release. No tour of A64M was to be found.
Now Fixed.
Here is an exit ramp reserved for the Ryder Cup at the time it was made.
Here is a look at the A167M Motorway in Newcastle.
Here is more from Auto shenanigans on the UK Motorway tour.
Here is a roundabout in the UK whose history is tied to a then factory who has the rights to make Star Wars Collectibles in Britain.
Here is a tour of the M25
Here is a look at a roundabout in the UK that gets compared to Dutch streets.
Here is a tour of old road alignment in the UK from Newmarket to Stowmarket UK.
Here is a tour of the A39.
Here is a segment on Essex.
Here is another tour this time in the Cambridgeshire area.
M25 Closed for renovations.
B1M video on a new road tunnel being in London under the Thames River:
Here is a tour of Bedfordshire.
Here is a former alignment of B4069 it went through a landslide.
Here is a segment of the A33 in Winchester.
Here is a tour of the M10.
Quote from: bing101 on May 15, 2024, 11:52:19 AM
I had to look up Skegness after the video because the host portrayed it as a dying seaside resort town. To the contrary, the population is growing, the economy has diversified with some industry, and the climate doesn't look horrible (for England anyway.)
Quote from: bing101 on April 03, 2024, 01:39:05 PMHere is a former alignment of B4069. It went through a landslide.
Here is Wiltshire Council's page on the landslip remediation scheme for the B4069 at Lyneham Banks:
https://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/article/6085/B4069-Lyneham-Banks
Work is expected to begin this summer and cost about £5 million. It is theorized that storage of demolition debris upslope from the road re-activated an ancient slide.
Quote from: Road Hog on June 12, 2024, 11:01:56 PMI had to look up Skegness after the video because the host portrayed it as a dying seaside resort town. To the contrary, the population is growing
In England that's often a sign of a dying town - both in terms of trying to add population and industry to try and get the economy growing again, and in terms of the people there not being rich enough to have the time to block development (a classic rich-Brit pasttime).
Quotethe climate doesn't look horrible (for England anyway.)
Sure, it's East Coast location makes it dryer than places west of the Pennines, but it's only as warm in summer as Bridlington (further north), and wetter to boot. It's slightly cooler, and as-dry, as Nottingham - the big city with the strongest links to Skeggy. You aren't going there as the weather is nice, because it's unlikely to be nicer than where you are and isn't as nice as other places.
Even when it was a thriving resort, it marketed itself on being 'bracing' (ie cold and windy, but in an invigorating way) - it's a dying resort town because all it has is a beach, a few amenities and a big holiday park that is not really any cheaper than going to some crap resort a cheap flight away - eg Benidorm.
80% of the town's population is in the bottom 20% of the country - it's very very far from thriving. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6604480ee8c44200112203c5/Skegness.pdf
Here is a tour of the M5 viaduct.
Here is Auto Shenanigans segment on the M1@M62 Interchange.
A new massive road tunnel project is underway in the United Kingdom:
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2025, 03:11:40 AMA new massive road tunnel project is underway in the United Kingdom:
No its not.
Unless you could spending money and producing documents as 'underway'. The SABRE Wiki page for the Lower Thames Crossing was created in 2012 - the project is a teenager! The route (albeit with minor tweaks done pre-2020) was chosen over 7 years ago. They have spent £300m and produced 350,000 pages of documents. It's well 'underway' in that sense, but it's also still not approved.
The Government did reaffirm its commitment this week, along with dozens of other projects that the government was already 'committed' to, but had done nothing about bringing into fruition. In fact the same reaffirmation also saw the government actively say that they didn't want to pay for it.
No construction started, no funding confirmed and not even approved. It's very definitely not underway in my books.
For some strange reason, I've been especially interested in UK roads lately. Mainly in the middle to northern part of England, I just think it's a neat area. What is there to really know about UK roads, considering I've never been there(surprise, I know), and why are there just random A and M letters, and where did the roads get their numbers from?(i.e A1)
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on June 08, 2025, 06:07:06 PMwhy are there just random A and M letters, and where did the roads get their numbers from?(i.e A1)
This might help you understand this
https://pathetic.org.uk/features/numbering/
https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/road-numbers
So, I was watching this Auto Shenanigans video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mglBsJTuIOA&t=101s)about the installation of two as-yet-unused roundabouts on the M181 when I noticed that the older of the two is striped incorrectly.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5764653,-0.7000087,99m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
That it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through. The newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.
I posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid. It occurred to me that, while a troublesome minority of American drivers are militantly committed to following European rules in a multilane roundabouts in defiance of our superior pavement markings, British drivers will drive them correctly even if the striping directs them not to and not only not notice that anything's amiss, but ridicule anyone who does, along with their place of origin.
in case anyone doesn't understand what I'm calling European, here's that Spanish diagram warning drivers from the English-speaking world how roundabouts are striped there. In most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault.
(https://i.imgur.com/jyFmcQC.jpeg)
Quote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2025, 05:05:43 AMSo, I was watching this Auto Shenanigans video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mglBsJTuIOA&t=101s)about the installation of two as-yet-unused roundabouts on the M181 when I noticed that the older of the two is striped incorrectly.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/XfMhT5iGE6jtmsZm6
That it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through. The newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.
I posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid. It occurred to me that, while a troublesome minority of American drivers are militantly committed to following European rules in a multilane roundabouts in defiance of our superior pavement markings, British drivers will drive them correctly even if the striping directs them not to and not only not notice that anything's amiss, but ridicule anyone who does, along with their place of origin.
in case anyone doesn't understand what I'm calling European, here's that Spanish diagram warning drivers from the English-speaking world how roundabouts are striped there. In most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault.
(https://i.imgur.com/jyFmcQC.jpeg)
What is even the point of the European way? Wouldn't it just incentivize people to never, ever, use the left lane of a roundabout? When you're in the middle of a circle looking for your exit is not the time to have to worry about lane changes, and unless the roundabout has so little traffic that a single-lane would function just fine, people would just get blocked from exiting from the left lane anyways.
Quote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2025, 05:05:43 AMthe older of the two is striped incorrectly.
Other than lane markings tending not to be typical on two-lane standard roundabouts (cf the original M181 northern terminus (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5890876,-0.6977553,3a,75y,241.9h,80.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAT1Pi7BlYjpVJSJgjSQD5A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D9.913546055974436%26panoid%3DAT1Pi7BlYjpVJSJgjSQD5A%26yaw%3D241.8997001731109!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)), that is a valid way of how we stripe them (eg this roundabout on the A18 in Scunthorpe (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5902728,-0.6839273,3a,75y,195.77h,66.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smRiruan62U4whtpsYeAsig!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D23.12736014787393%26panoid%3DmRiruan62U4whtpsYeAsig%26yaw%3D195.77373913175455!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), this one on the A40 near Beaconsfield (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6013099,-0.623239,3a,75y,180.56h,86.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgh-niksmgrAvvE3_izIs_Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.8872044762951248%26panoid%3Dgh-niksmgrAvvE3_izIs_Q%26yaw%3D180.5613420065712!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) and this one at Yeovil (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.967903,-2.7416345,3a,75y,94.26h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-KEDdQwx7aeI_zbX6NnUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.487712192839382%26panoid%3Dd-KEDdQwx7aeI_zbX6NnUw%26yaw%3D94.26470451226868!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D))
Quotehttps://maps.app.goo.gl/XfMhT5iGE6jtmsZm6
I think you mean this (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5769623,-0.7008802,3a,75y,69.23h,71.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssvPSz4G6kSso2RTc3KK7Yg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D18.609445062287662%26panoid%3DsvPSz4G6kSso2RTc3KK7Yg%26yaw%3D69.22726133166721!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
QuoteThat it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through.
In case you hadn't realised, the UK is in Europe!
QuoteThe newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.
It's striped differently, but it doesn't match any of the designs drawn in the DMRB (linked below) - unlike the 2021 roundabout which is clearly correctly applied Figure D.3 Concentic markings.
I'm not saying the 2025 roundabout is incorrectly striped, I'm just saying it's not one of the drawn examples as its a little more complicated than them.
QuoteI posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid.
You mean because they didn't spot that anything wrong with a perfectly standard lane marking arrangement on a British roundabout? That's not a stupid response, but a sensible one!
QuoteIn most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault.
(https://i.imgur.com/jyFmcQC.jpeg)
Focusing in on the 'one roundabout in Scunthorpe' (actually more than one in that town, and many across the UK), the red car would be deemed to have at least some blame. And very much the bigger part if the yellow car was indicating and it wasn't.
Rules 184-187 (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-159-to-203) govern roundabout behaviour. The red car hasn't followed
"get into the correct lane"
"be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you."
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/559af891e5274a155c00001d/the-highway-code-rule-185.jpg)
"Follow the correct procedure at roundabouts"
(note no lane markings in the diagram despite clearly being a two lane roundabout)The yellow car also hasn't followed the stuff about looking out for other users including "In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to ... traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly" but has followed "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout", which is at least something right whereas the red car is getting everything wrong.
I've not checked other relevant country's Highway Codes, but I'd imagine they'd be similar. If you are turning left (or right in a drive-on-left country), then unless you are Non-motorised user (who are explicitly allowed to stay in the left-hand lane in the UK Highway Code, and drivers are explicitly warned to look out for that) you will be in the left lane of the roundabout.
Quote from: vdeane on June 16, 2025, 12:50:39 PMWhat is even the point of the European way?
To emphasis the circular nature of the roundabout carriageway and that you are joining it and have to yield.
QuoteWouldn't it just incentivize people to never, ever, use the left lane of a roundabout?
Quite the opposite - as the DMRB (https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/search/html/7b5ea157-9b3e-4774-9781-7d1656e83338?standard=DMRB) says "Concentric markings (see Figure D.3) are useful to encourage drivers to enter and circulate in two or more adjacent lanes. This increases the potential throughput in locations where this does not ordinarily occur."
Though they warn against this on roundabouts with more than two lanes - and this is the reason for the difference between the 2021 and 2025 roundabouts on the M181 as the latter has 3rd lanes on the N-S movement, hence the use of spiral markings per the recommendations of the DMRB.
Quote from: english si on June 16, 2025, 06:00:36 PMQuote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2025, 05:05:43 AMthe older of the two is striped incorrectly.
Other than lane markings tending not to be typical on two-lane standard roundabouts (cf the original M181 northern terminus (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5890876,-0.6977553,3a,75y,241.9h,80.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAT1Pi7BlYjpVJSJgjSQD5A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D9.913546055974436%26panoid%3DAT1Pi7BlYjpVJSJgjSQD5A%26yaw%3D241.8997001731109!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)), that is a valid way of how we stripe them (eg this roundabout on the A18 in Scunthorpe (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5902728,-0.6839273,3a,75y,195.77h,66.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smRiruan62U4whtpsYeAsig!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D23.12736014787393%26panoid%3DmRiruan62U4whtpsYeAsig%26yaw%3D195.77373913175455!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), this one on the A40 near Beaconsfield (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6013099,-0.623239,3a,75y,180.56h,86.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgh-niksmgrAvvE3_izIs_Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.8872044762951248%26panoid%3Dgh-niksmgrAvvE3_izIs_Q%26yaw%3D180.5613420065712!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) and this one at Yeovil (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.967903,-2.7416345,3a,75y,94.26h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-KEDdQwx7aeI_zbX6NnUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.487712192839382%26panoid%3Dd-KEDdQwx7aeI_zbX6NnUw%26yaw%3D94.26470451226868!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D))
Quotehttps://maps.app.goo.gl/XfMhT5iGE6jtmsZm6
I think you mean this (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5769623,-0.7008802,3a,75y,69.23h,71.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssvPSz4G6kSso2RTc3KK7Yg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D18.609445062287662%26panoid%3DsvPSz4G6kSso2RTc3KK7Yg%26yaw%3D69.22726133166721!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
QuoteThat it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through.
In case you hadn't realised, the UK is in Europe!
QuoteThe newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.
It's striped differently, but it doesn't match any of the designs drawn in the DMRB (linked below) - unlike the 2021 roundabout which is clearly correctly applied Figure D.3 Concentic markings.
I'm not saying the 2025 roundabout is incorrectly striped, I'm just saying it's not one of the drawn examples as its a little more complicated than them.
QuoteI posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid.
You mean because they didn't spot that anything wrong with a perfectly standard lane marking arrangement on a British roundabout? That's not a stupid response, but a sensible one!
QuoteIn most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault.
(https://i.imgur.com/jyFmcQC.jpeg)
Focusing in on the 'one roundabout in Scunthorpe' (actually more than one in that town, and many across the UK), the red car would be deemed to have at least some blame. And very much the bigger part if the yellow car was indicating and it wasn't.
Rules 184-187 (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-159-to-203) govern roundabout behaviour. The red car hasn't followed
"get into the correct lane"
"be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you."
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/559af891e5274a155c00001d/the-highway-code-rule-185.jpg)
"Follow the correct procedure at roundabouts" (note no lane markings in the diagram despite clearly being a two lane roundabout)
The yellow car also hasn't followed the stuff about looking out for other users including "In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to ... traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly" but has followed "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout", which is at least something right whereas the red car is getting everything wrong.
I've not checked other relevant country's Highway Codes, but I'd imagine they'd be similar. If you are turning left (or right in a drive-on-left country), then unless you are Non-motorised user (who are explicitly allowed to stay in the left-hand lane in the UK Highway Code, and drivers are explicitly warned to look out for that) you will be in the left lane of the roundabout.
Quote from: vdeane on June 16, 2025, 12:50:39 PMWhat is even the point of the European way?
To emphasis the circular nature of the roundabout carriageway and that you are joining it and have to yield.
QuoteWouldn't it just incentivize people to never, ever, use the left lane of a roundabout?
Quite the opposite - as the DMRB (https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/search/html/7b5ea157-9b3e-4774-9781-7d1656e83338?standard=DMRB) says "Concentric markings (see Figure D.3) are useful to encourage drivers to enter and circulate in two or more adjacent lanes. This increases the potential throughput in locations where this does not ordinarily occur."
Though they warn against this on roundabouts with more than two lanes - and this is the reason for the difference between the 2021 and 2025 roundabouts on the M181 as the latter has 3rd lanes on the N-S movement, hence the use of spiral markings per the recommendations of the DMRB.
That makes it weirder. Shouldn't the pavement markings match what traffic is supposed to do? Weird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings. Isn't that what signs and pavement markings (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2111098,-77.5495779,3a,48.9y,350.88h,90.52t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOKJOsneXK-6mUvLce-OvEA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.5221347251201678%26panoid%3DOKJOsneXK-6mUvLce-OvEA%26yaw%3D350.8821748972998!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) are for?
Thanks for the elaborate reply. Unfortunately, very little of it makes any sense to me, and I can't do a point-by-point rebuttal to a post with so many lengthy links in it-- during editing, it looks like gibberish to me.
First, the former end of the M181 isn't a valid comparison to the roundabouts in the OP because the heaviest traffic flows are between the southern and eastern legs, not straight through as in most roundabouts. From overhead (https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5890789,-0.6982879,99m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), it appears that there are no lane markings approaching the two-lane exits, and your Streetview appears to suggest that drivers heed the construction joints in the asphalt instead of the nonexistent striping.
Yes, it's true: I pasted the wrong link illustrating the first of the two M181 roundabouts. What I meant to post was this overhead view (https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5890789,-0.6982879,99m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
QuoteFocusing in on the 'one roundabout in Scunthorpe' (actually more than one in that town, and many across the UK), the red car would be deemed to have at least some blame. And very much the bigger part if the yellow car was indicating and it wasn't.
How and why, pray tell, is the red car supposed to indicate that it's staying in its clearly-marked lane?
QuoteRules 184-187 govern roundabout behaviour. The red car hasn't followed
"get into the correct lane"
"be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you."
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/559af891e5274a155c00001d/the-highway-code-rule-185.jpg)
That diagram is nonsensical because it makes no provision for two-lane movement across the dominant direction of travel
even though there's nothing preventing the illustrator from doing so simply extending a green arrow into the right lane of the upper-left roadway. the failure to do so implies that it's not even legal to make that movement, doesn't it?
I'm getting tired of this, and my formerly high opinion of the British has taken a real hit, which I don't need in my life right now.
Quote from: vdeane on June 16, 2025, 12:50:39 PMThat makes it weirder. Shouldn't the pavement markings match what traffic is supposed to do? Weird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings. Isn't that what signs and pavement markings (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2111098,-77.5495779,3a,48.9y,350.88h,90.52t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOKJOsneXK-6mUvLce-OvEA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.5221347251201678%26panoid%3DOKJOsneXK-6mUvLce-OvEA%26yaw%3D350.8821748972998!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) are for?
I think I've figured it out. What we're seeing here isn't the British version of the MUTCD. It's a legalistic document intended to put the responsibility for crashes and other dysfunctionalities onto motorists no matter how nonsensical the choice of traffic control devices at a given site may be. This attitude is anathema to you and me, but the British seem to have embraced it, probably for the same reason they have a king.
Quote from: vdeane on June 16, 2025, 10:11:25 PMWeird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings.
That's what neither I, nor the DMRB, said. And I'm not just talking about that it would be the right lane as we drive on the left.
We said that concentric circle markings encourage people to use both lanes. Nothing was said about that not being true for spiral markings.
Quote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2025, 11:11:52 PMThis attitude is anathema to you and me, but the British seem to have embraced it, probably for the same reason they have a king.
The people in London called the rebels in North America 'Royalists' because the rebels were demanding that the king exert power he didn't constitutionally have. In 1792 Washington, not Hannover, was the George with more power over his relevant people - because the American constitution sort to give them a king not constrained by the 100 years of constitutional development since 1689 (or even 1660), but hated the term. And the power held by the President has only grown since then.
But this is perhaps the same problem as the main problem in this discussion - there's no understanding of nuance or reality and everything must be spelled out explicitly - Kings are bad, President's good, purely on the word used not on the tyranny they actually hold! Diagrams must show every possibility because how else would we know what's legal! Lane markings and signage must tell you the rules of the road at every possible juncture!
The latter is especially nonsensical - the confusion about kings is in the US DNA, but the US is a Common Law jurisdiction, not a Continental Law one. It's not Germany where everything not legal is illegal. It's the US, where everything not illegal is legal.
I should note that the UK has far safer roads than the US - a lot of that is other factors, but a decent amount of the difference is education (the 3 Es of road safety: Education, Engineering, and Enforcement) - because we expect high levels of capability and decision making from our drivers so that they can deal with the unexpected. More than half of driving tests end in a fail (average pass rate is 48.5%).
British driving requires you to be aware of the road and other users (and assuming that they will stick to the rules is against the rules), to make decisions without your hand being held at every step, and to seek to avoid collisions as you make manuevers. What's wrong with any of that?
Quote from: english si on June 17, 2025, 05:30:21 AMQuote from: vdeane on June 16, 2025, 10:11:25 PMWeird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings.
That's what neither I, nor the DMRB, said. And I'm not just talking about that it would be the right lane as we drive on the left.
We said that concentric circle markings encourage people to use both lanes. Nothing was said about that not being true for spiral markings.
Quote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2025, 11:11:52 PMThis attitude is anathema to you and me, but the British seem to have embraced it, probably for the same reason they have a king.
The people in London called the rebels in North America 'Royalists' because the rebels were demanding that the king exert power he didn't constitutionally have. In 1792 Washington, not Hannover, was the George with more power over his relevant people - because the American constitution sort to give them a king not constrained by the 100 years of constitutional development since 1689 (or even 1660), but hated the term. And the power held by the President has only grown since then.
But this is perhaps the same problem as the main problem in this discussion - there's no understanding of nuance or reality and everything must be spelled out explicitly - Kings are bad, President's good, purely on the word used not on the tyranny they actually hold! Diagrams must show every possibility because how else would we know what's legal! Lane markings and signage must tell you the rules of the road at every possible juncture!
The latter is especially nonsensical - the confusion about kings is in the US DNA, but the US is a Common Law jurisdiction, not a Continental Law one. It's not Germany where everything not legal is illegal. It's the US, where everything not illegal is legal.
I should note that the UK has far safer roads than the US - a lot of that is other factors, but a decent amount of the difference is education (the 3 Es of road safety: Education, Engineering, and Enforcement) - because we expect high levels of capability and decision making from our drivers so that they can deal with the unexpected. More than half of driving tests end in a fail (average pass rate is 48.5%).
British driving requires you to be aware of the road and other users (and assuming that they will stick to the rules is against the rules), to make decisions without your hand being held at every step, and to seek to avoid collisions as you make manuevers. What's wrong with any of that?
Pavement markings are
supposed to define where traffic goes. Having a situation where the legal flow of traffic and the striping of the lanes is different is nonsensical. I agree that there are some instances where we over-sign in the US (look at every subdivision with all-way stops plastered everywhere), but roundabout/intersection signage denoting what lane goes where isn't one of them (the US approach is also more flexible in this context, as multi-lane roundabouts here don't require all approaches and exits to have the same number of lanes).
As for watching traffic, there's only so much you can do. When I'm in a roundabout, I'm watching the car in front of me so I don't rear end it, the road so I can maneuver and exit properly, and the other entrances to make sure nobody's going to cut me off rather than yielding. Naturally I have an awareness of nearby traffic, but closely paying attention to what everyone else is doing (including checking the mirrors) to the amount I would before a lane change is well beyond the mental bandwidth there.
Here is a tour of the Runcorn Busway.