Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[froggie]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

[ski-man]

This definitely would solve the issue (IMO); additionally they could ask to twin the rest of US 287 from Laramie to Tie Siding as well. It's not a major trucking route, but I swear there's a head-on collision at least every two years from the all the passing that goes on.

287 should be four lanes between Laramie and Fort Collins regardless of anything going on with I-80. It is the fastest route from Denver to Salt Lake City and points west/northwest and as a result sees quite a bit of traffic, both truck and non-truck.

Agreed 100%.

I remember seeing something that WYDOT had committed to 4-laning their stretch of 287 (no timetable), but I have no idea if CDOT will ever do anything.

287 is 4-laned about half the way between Laramie and the state line. The other half has the right-of-way already just needs the construction. Colorado is a big problem with their road funding there I do not see this being a big priority for them. One thing Colorado did do is redo and pave Owl Canyon Road north of Ft. Collins, which allows traffic and many semi's to by-pass going through the town of Ft Collins on their way to I-25.

[JayhawkCO]

This definitely would solve the issue (IMO); additionally they could ask to twin the rest of US 287 from Laramie to Tie Siding as well. It's not a major trucking route, but I swear there's a head-on collision at least every two years from the all the passing that goes on.

287 should be four lanes between Laramie and Fort Collins regardless of anything going on with I-80. It is the fastest route from Denver to Salt Lake City and points west/northwest and as a result sees quite a bit of traffic, both truck and non-truck.

Agreed 100%.

I remember seeing something that WYDOT had committed to 4-laning their stretch of 287 (no timetable), but I have no idea if CDOT will ever do anything.

287 is 4-laned about half the way between Laramie and the state line. The other half has the right-of-way already just needs the construction. Colorado is a big problem with their road funding there I do not see this being a big priority for them. One thing Colorado did do is redo and pave Owl Canyon Road north of Ft. Collins, which allows traffic and many semi's to by-pass going through the town of Ft Collins on their way to I-25.

I feel like they should now change the routing of US287 too.  Maybe have it come across CO392 north of Loveland, multi-plex with I-25 until Owl Canyon Road and then head west again. Not that that many trucks are likely taking US287 up from Loveland now, but it'll at least have direct access from I-25 towards the Northwest.

[Zonie]

This definitely would solve the issue (IMO); additionally they could ask to twin the rest of US 287 from Laramie to Tie Siding as well. It's not a major trucking route, but I swear there's a head-on collision at least every two years from the all the passing that goes on.

287 should be four lanes between Laramie and Fort Collins regardless of anything going on with I-80. It is the fastest route from Denver to Salt Lake City and points west/northwest and as a result sees quite a bit of traffic, both truck and non-truck.

Agreed 100%.

I remember seeing something that WYDOT had committed to 4-laning their stretch of 287 (no timetable), but I have no idea if CDOT will ever do anything.

287 is 4-laned about half the way between Laramie and the state line. The other half has the right-of-way already just needs the construction. Colorado is a big problem with their road funding there I do not see this being a big priority for them. One thing Colorado did do is redo and pave Owl Canyon Road north of Ft. Collins, which allows traffic and many semi's to by-pass going through the town of Ft Collins on their way to I-25.

I feel like they should now change the routing of US287 too.  Maybe have it come across CO392 north of Loveland, multi-plex with I-25 until Owl Canyon Road and then head west again. Not that that many trucks are likely taking US287 up from Loveland now, but it'll at least have direct access from I-25 towards the Northwest.

Maybe CO 402 south of Loveland - you avoid the jog around a lake (which always sucked in the winter)...

[JayhawkCO]

Probably a better option.

[DenverBrian]

Regarding "too expensive/waste of money": If the trucking industry is incurring more than $6B a year in delay costs because of this bottleneck, then there is a potential positive ROI out of upgrading US30.

No need to fully upgrade to Interstate standards, though. Make it four-lane or even substantially six-lane in that stretch, then mark it as "Alt-80" or some such and direct trucks to the alternate in bad weather.

Maybe even toll it for trucks (not for cars).

[JREwing78]

Regarding "too expensive/waste of money": If the trucking industry is incurring more than $6B a year in delay costs because of this bottleneck, then there is a potential positive ROI out of upgrading US30.

One thing for certain - the State of Wyoming is not coughing up this investment, unless the feds let them toll I-80. It's not like Wyoming is going to be able to pay for it jacking up fuel taxes. And, given the trends for coal and oil, the State of Wyoming's future tax revenues are not looking bright.

I mean, if Jeff Bezos wants to cough up $6 Billion to get Amazon packages across Wyoming more reliably, why the hell not?

[Scott5114]

Regarding "too expensive/waste of money": If the trucking industry is incurring more than $6B a year in delay costs because of this bottleneck, then there is a potential positive ROI out of upgrading US30.

One thing for certain - the State of Wyoming is not coughing up this investment, unless the feds let them toll I-80. It's not like Wyoming is going to be able to pay for it jacking up fuel taxes. And, given the trends for coal and oil, the State of Wyoming's future tax revenues are not looking bright.

Could do it up like Oklahoma: route US-30 onto I-80. Build a new toll road on the old US-30 route and call it WY-380. Redesign the interchange on both ends to default traffic onto WY-380. Put up ugly signs. Make out-of-state drivers pay to see the ugly signs.

[zachary_amaryllis]

Living in Laramie, and from my conversations, many times when I-80 is closed to all vehicles, not just high profile / light weight trucks, US-30 is also closed as to not overload a road that is only two lanes for about 3/4 of the distance from Laramie to Wolcott Jct. There are A LOT of trucks on this stretch as it is a better route to the west coast than 70, and if I-80 is closed due to wind or winter conditions, US 30 will get some, just not as bad. Combine the conditions on a two lane road with a lot of cross-country semis, and that road can be a parking lot as well with icy spots to boot.

unrelated... but i absolutely love laramie. i'm a train fanatic, and you have that cool footbridge over the yard downtown. haven't been there for years, sad i'm since only 60 miles SE of you...

I got to do some trainspotting on that bridge last year when I was in Wyoming and stayed the night in Laramie. I went back into Colorado on US 287 the next morning and was curious to wonder why only part of that highway was four lanes with two-lane segments both in Wyoming and Colorado.

we in colorado who drive that road wonder the same thing 

[Rothman]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

[seicer]

An interesting thing about closures. Years ago, when I was living in Cincinnati, we got dumped on with snow. The county declared it to be a "level 3" emergency a little later than expected, despite surrounding areas forgoing such a severe designation. Yeah, there was snow, but nothing that couldn't be handled with caution and a good vehicle with snow tires and/or AWD. (I should know, I was out in the weather photographing scenes.) It all came to a boil when a sheriff arrested a Metro bus driver for taking commuters home along I-71 - leaving the bus stranded on the side of the interstate with folks inside. Charges against the driver were soon dropped as the snow emergency bit wasn't really all that enforceable, and the PR was such a black eye for law enforcement that it's now merely a suggestion to not drive - and not something you could be arrested over.

[SD Mapman]

There is zero tourism on US30.

Not true! Weirdos like me stop to take photos of the various abandoned buildings along the way!

There is one tourist on US30.

*Two! 

This definitely would solve the issue (IMO); additionally they could ask to twin the rest of US 287 from Laramie to Tie Siding as well. It's not a major trucking route, but I swear there's a head-on collision at least every two years from the all the passing that goes on.

287 should be four lanes between Laramie and Fort Collins regardless of anything going on with I-80. It is the fastest route from Denver to Salt Lake City and points west/northwest and as a result sees quite a bit of traffic, both truck and non-truck.

Agreed 100%.

I remember seeing something that WYDOT had committed to 4-laning their stretch of 287 (no timetable), but I have no idea if CDOT will ever do anything.

287 is 4-laned about half the way between Laramie and the state line. The other half has the right-of-way already just needs the construction. Colorado is a big problem with their road funding there I do not see this being a big priority for them. One thing Colorado did do is redo and pave Owl Canyon Road north of Ft. Collins, which allows traffic and many semi's to by-pass going through the town of Ft Collins on their way to I-25.

I feel like they should now change the routing of US287 too.  Maybe have it come across CO392 north of Loveland, multi-plex with I-25 until Owl Canyon Road and then head west again. Not that that many trucks are likely taking US287 up from Loveland now, but it'll at least have direct access from I-25 towards the Northwest.

My idea would be to sign Owl Canyon Road (CR 72/CR 19/CR 70) as "US 287 Truck" or something like that and simultaneously restrict truck traffic through Fort Collins itself (Riverside and College is a horrible intersection anyway, even without trucks). That way anyone going to/from Denver to points northwest would take that instead of CO 14 to get over to 287.

[SD Mapman]

This definitely would solve the issue (IMO); additionally they could ask to twin the rest of US 287 from Laramie to Tie Siding as well. It's not a major trucking route, but I swear there's a head-on collision at least every two years from the all the passing that goes on.

287 should be four lanes between Laramie and Fort Collins regardless of anything going on with I-80. It is the fastest route from Denver to Salt Lake City and points west/northwest and as a result sees quite a bit of traffic, both truck and non-truck.

Agreed 100%.

I remember seeing something that WYDOT had committed to 4-laning their stretch of 287 (no timetable), but I have no idea if CDOT will ever do anything.

287 is 4-laned about half the way between Laramie and the state line. The other half has the right-of-way already just needs the construction. Colorado is a big problem with their road funding there I do not see this being a big priority for them. One thing Colorado did do is redo and pave Owl Canyon Road north of Ft. Collins, which allows traffic and many semi's to by-pass going through the town of Ft Collins on their way to I-25.

Yeah, and I feel like the Wyoming part isn't really the problem; it's the passing lanes in Colorado and the people not keeping right and going 90 that cause a lot of the trouble with 287.

[hbelkins]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

The point is, Kentucky's attitude is "throw the resources at it to keep the road open." In the past few years, we've even developed an "emergency route" plan that creates a "superpriority" system. Interstates and parkways are already Priority A routes, but the emergency system would basically move all resources to them (or to the emergency routes designated in each county.)

The plains and upper midwest states would rather just close the roads than do what it takes to keep them open. And the citizenry is OK with that. It's not the case here. We certainly haven't spoiled drivers with a "black pavement" policy but there's an expectation that main roads will remain open unless they're physically blocked.

[Rothman]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

The point is, Kentucky's attitude is "throw the resources at it to keep the road open." In the past few years, we've even developed an "emergency route" plan that creates a "superpriority" system. Interstates and parkways are already Priority A routes, but the emergency system would basically move all resources to them (or to the emergency routes designated in each county.)

The plains and upper midwest states would rather just close the roads than do what it takes to keep them open. And the citizenry is OK with that. It's not the case here. We certainly haven't spoiled drivers with a "black pavement" policy but there's an expectation that main roads will remain open unless they're physically blocked.

What I hear is ignorance of the much harsher conditions in Wyoming in that comparison.

When KY has to deal with nearly constant gale force winds blowing perpendicular to their interstates, then I will give your comparison more creedence.

[JayhawkCO]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

The point is, Kentucky's attitude is "throw the resources at it to keep the road open." In the past few years, we've even developed an "emergency route" plan that creates a "superpriority" system. Interstates and parkways are already Priority A routes, but the emergency system would basically move all resources to them (or to the emergency routes designated in each county.)

The plains and upper midwest states would rather just close the roads than do what it takes to keep them open. And the citizenry is OK with that. It's not the case here. We certainly haven't spoiled drivers with a "black pavement" policy but there's an expectation that main roads will remain open unless they're physically blocked.

What I hear is ignorance of the much harsher conditions in Wyoming in that comparison.

When KY has to deal with nearly constant gale force winds blowing perpendicular to their interstates, then I will give your comparison more creedence.

Don't forget the finely powdered snow that is alien to most locales east of the Rockies that gets stirred up creating whiteout conditions even when it's not snowing.

[Rothman]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

The point is, Kentucky's attitude is "throw the resources at it to keep the road open." In the past few years, we've even developed an "emergency route" plan that creates a "superpriority" system. Interstates and parkways are already Priority A routes, but the emergency system would basically move all resources to them (or to the emergency routes designated in each county.)

The plains and upper midwest states would rather just close the roads than do what it takes to keep them open. And the citizenry is OK with that. It's not the case here. We certainly haven't spoiled drivers with a "black pavement" policy but there's an expectation that main roads will remain open unless they're physically blocked.

What I hear is ignorance of the much harsher conditions in Wyoming in that comparison.

When KY has to deal with nearly constant gale force winds blowing perpendicular to their interstates, then I will give your comparison more creedence.

Don't forget the finely powdered snow that is alien to most locales east of the Rockies that gets stirred up creating whiteout conditions even when it's not snowing.

...or blown in front of vehicles and then compacted into glaze ice.

[Mark68]

Having driven that stretch of I-80 during "good" conditions, I know from first-hand knowledge that it is pretty much never NOT windy. So any snow on the ground there (as well as loose soil) is particularly dangerous. Not sure it would be much different on US 30 though--similar topography from what I can tell.

[JayhawkCO]

Having driven that stretch of I-80 during "good" conditions, I know from first-hand knowledge that it is pretty much never NOT windy. So any snow on the ground there (as well as loose soil) is particularly dangerous. Not sure it would be much different on US 30 though--similar topography from what I can tell.

It is less windy on US30 just because the wind isn't whipping right around the Medicine Bows.

[silverback1065]

flat, no trees or anything to block blowing snow. unsurprising that this happens a lot.

[SD Mapman]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

The point is, Kentucky's attitude is "throw the resources at it to keep the road open." In the past few years, we've even developed an "emergency route" plan that creates a "superpriority" system. Interstates and parkways are already Priority A routes, but the emergency system would basically move all resources to them (or to the emergency routes designated in each county.)

The plains and upper midwest states would rather just close the roads than do what it takes to keep them open. And the citizenry is OK with that. It's not the case here. We certainly haven't spoiled drivers with a "black pavement" policy but there's an expectation that main roads will remain open unless they're physically blocked.

What I hear is ignorance of the much harsher conditions in Wyoming in that comparison.

When KY has to deal with nearly constant gale force winds blowing perpendicular to their interstates, then I will give your comparison more creedence.

Don't forget the finely powdered snow that is alien to most locales east of the Rockies that gets stirred up creating whiteout conditions even when it's not snowing.

I mean, there is a point there; South Dakota has similar winter conditions to Wyoming (definitely not as windy but still pretty bad) and the longest I've seen I-90 shut down is about 6 hours, whereas in Wyoming I-80 will just be closed for days no matter if it warms up. There is a definite difference in snow removal quality as well; I remember one time crossing into WY on SD 34 (WY 24) where the SD side was dry with no snow on the road at all and the WY side had about a half inch of packed snow with gravel covering everything (probably because the taxes are higher in SD). From what I've seen, a lot of WY cities don't plow the side streets when it snows, while in Spearfish if that happened the citizens would riot (we literally had an election to force the city to remove more snow).

[SD Mapman]

Having driven that stretch of I-80 during "good" conditions, I know from first-hand knowledge that it is pretty much never NOT windy. So any snow on the ground there (as well as loose soil) is particularly dangerous. Not sure it would be much different on US 30 though--similar topography from what I can tell.

It is less windy on US30 just because the wind isn't whipping right around the Medicine Bows.

I'm not sure of that (you could be right), but I think it's more that US 30 and the Laramie Valley will get an inch of snow while I-80 and Arlington/Elk Mountain will get 6 inches of snow from the same storm. Heck, it's probably both more windy and snowier along the I-80 routing, which just makes it terrible from September to June.

[froggie]

^^ Kentucky doesn't have the acute and persistent drifting problems that those other states do.

You mean Kentucky isn't geographically or meteorologically representative of the entire country, let alone Wyoming?  Imagine that.

The point is, Kentucky's attitude is "throw the resources at it to keep the road open." In the past few years, we've even developed an "emergency route" plan that creates a "superpriority" system. Interstates and parkways are already Priority A routes, but the emergency system would basically move all resources to them (or to the emergency routes designated in each county.)

The plains and upper midwest states would rather just close the roads than do what it takes to keep them open. And the citizenry is OK with that. It's not the case here. We certainly haven't spoiled drivers with a "black pavement" policy but there's an expectation that main roads will remain open unless they're physically blocked.

Having grown up out "on the prairie", there is only so much you can do before you have to just give up because it is not safe for the plow operators to keep going or emergency personnel to constantly respond to defiant motorists.  Roads will fill up with blowing snow faster than the plows can take it off.  So yes, it makes a lot of sense to close the road instead of "doing whatever it takes"...

[cl94]

New York used to do the "throw everything at it" to keep freeways through the lake effect snow belts open. They conceded within the past decade and started closing stuff during heavy snow/wind events. It just isn't worth putting plow drivers' lives at risk for something that will immediately drift over. Plus, closing the road significantly reduces the risk a bunch of people will get stuck in drifts, as has happened several times in these lake effect storms.

I-90 and I-81 in New York are two of the few freeways east of the Plains that get weather conditions similar to what you'll see in Wyoming in winter in terms of blowing snow. If I-80 is anything like those roads during/after a wind event, I don't blame WYODOT for closing the thing. Those roads can be downright terrifying during a winter wind event.

[seicer]

I was really appreciative of the state only plowing and not salting I-86 in the western reaches of the state until conditions warranted full-depth plowing and salting. It made for easy and reliable travel as plowed roads are fairly easy to drive on - even at higher speeds.