OpenStreetMap

Started by NE2, April 11, 2011, 10:08:21 AM

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NE2

Why not? Post your errors and I (or another OSM editor here) will see what I can do to fix them. (Note that overlaps are handled poorly and usually not rendered at all; this is the fault of the renderer.)

Errors I won't fix due to interference by local mappers:

  • Alaskan Way Viaduct and West Seattle Bridge not marked as freeway
  • business letters in Texas
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".


Michael

Not a highway, but still an error:  In Auburn, NY (link), the label "Mount Caramel High School" should be "Seward Elementary School".  the "Seward School" to the north should not exist.  Seward Elementary used to be Mount Carmel High, and USGS topos have not been updated.

Ga293

Not necessarily highways per se, but here's a few:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.94777&lon=-84.5208&zoom=16&layers=M
All of the Lake Street, Pinecrest Circle stuff in the trapezoid bordered by US 41 and GA 120 are former paper streets, with the exception of Trade Center Blvd. Mapquest gets it completely correct : http://mapq.st/hB5Zkq

There's a phantom major highway here : http://osm.org/go/ZQqwz1li--



NE2

Quote from: Ga293 on April 12, 2011, 09:02:41 AM
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.94777&lon=-84.5208&zoom=16&layers=M
All of the Lake Street, Pinecrest Circle stuff in the trapezoid bordered by US 41 and GA 120 are former paper streets, with the exception of Trade Center Blvd. Mapquest gets it completely correct : http://mapq.st/hB5Zkq
Marked a few as parking lot service roads and removed names.

Quote from: Ga293 on April 12, 2011, 09:02:41 AM
There's a phantom major highway here : http://osm.org/go/ZQqwz1li--
Someone mistakenly marked a stream as a highway. Fixed.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Scott5114

I've been messing around with OSM a bit this week. Could you explain basically how streets/major highways are supposed to be marked? I've read the documentation but most of it is geared toward UK use. Am I correct in the understanding that it goes Interstate/freeway=motorway, expressway=trunk, US=primary, state=secondary? What are urban major arterials supposed to be? In Oklahoma City they are marked as secondary but in Norman they are tertiary. (If major arterials are secondary, is tertiary for residential collectors?)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

NE2

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 06, 2011, 10:26:34 PM
I've been messing around with OSM a bit this week. Could you explain basically how streets/major highways are supposed to be marked? I've read the documentation but most of it is geared toward UK use. Am I correct in the understanding that it goes Interstate/freeway=motorway, expressway=trunk, US=primary, state=secondary? What are urban major arterials supposed to be? In Oklahoma City they are marked as secondary but in Norman they are tertiary. (If major arterials are secondary, is tertiary for residential collectors?)
Heh. There's no real consensus here. Motorway is of course freeway (add bicycle=yes if bikes are allowed). Trunk is used for both surface expressways and for major intercity highways (such as US 93 Phoenix-Las Vegas, even on those sections that aren't strictly expressway). Primary-secondary-tertiary is a balancing act with no strict rules. Usually a U.S. Highway will be primary or higher and a state highway will be secondary or higher, but exceptions will come up (for example I'd guess that SH 9 from Norman to Tecumseh serves a decent amount of traffic and should be primary). Functional classification is another useful data point; generally principal=primary, minor=secondary, collector=tertiary will be a good starting point. My personal balance can be seen best in Orlando. But really, as long as you're internally consistent (e.g. not ending a secondary at an intersection of tertiaries without a good reason, like in Norman), you shouldn't have problems.

By the way, rendering is currently borked, so your changes won't show up immediately.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Scott5114

Quote from: NE2 on May 06, 2011, 10:42:31 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 06, 2011, 10:26:34 PM
I've been messing around with OSM a bit this week. Could you explain basically how streets/major highways are supposed to be marked? I've read the documentation but most of it is geared toward UK use. Am I correct in the understanding that it goes Interstate/freeway=motorway, expressway=trunk, US=primary, state=secondary? What are urban major arterials supposed to be? In Oklahoma City they are marked as secondary but in Norman they are tertiary. (If major arterials are secondary, is tertiary for residential collectors?)
Heh. There's no real consensus here. Motorway is of course freeway (add bicycle=yes if bikes are allowed). Trunk is used for both surface expressways and for major intercity highways (such as US 93 Phoenix-Las Vegas, even on those sections that aren't strictly expressway). Primary-secondary-tertiary is a balancing act with no strict rules. Usually a U.S. Highway will be primary or higher and a state highway will be secondary or higher, but exceptions will come up (for example I'd guess that SH 9 from Norman to Tecumseh serves a decent amount of traffic and should be primary). Functional classification is another useful data point; generally principal=primary, minor=secondary, collector=tertiary will be a good starting point. My personal balance can be seen best in Orlando. But really, as long as you're internally consistent (e.g. not ending a secondary at an intersection of tertiaries without a good reason, like in Norman), you shouldn't have problems.

By the way, rendering is currently borked, so your changes won't show up immediately.

I am actually discussing the case of SH-9 with another user right now via PM. I was under the impression that SH-9 between 24th Ave. S.E. as an at-grade expressway with stoplights, should be trunk, but he cites the stoplight timing and the fact that usually the lights prohibit reaching the speed limit of 50 MPH as reasons why it should not be trunk. I am proposing that we mark it as primary, we'll see what he says.

I think part of the messiness in this was the fact that OSM started out tailored to the needs of UK mapping, which doesn't mesh perfectly with situations in the US. A little more pre-launch planning might have avoided the ambiguousness.

I had wondered about rendering. Are such interruptions normal? Is telling Osmarender/tiles@home to render tiles futile as well?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

NE2

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 07, 2011, 10:07:41 AM
I am actually discussing the case of SH-9 with another user right now via PM. I was under the impression that SH-9 between 24th Ave. S.E. as an at-grade expressway with stoplights, should be trunk, but he cites the stoplight timing and the fact that usually the lights prohibit reaching the speed limit of 50 MPH as reasons why it should not be trunk. I am proposing that we mark it as primary, we'll see what he says.
There's no such requirement for 50 mph speeds to be trunk (or motorway). A number of expressways in California are 45 or lower: http://www.sccgov.org/scc_ordinance/31302011.HTM

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 07, 2011, 10:07:41 AM
I had wondered about rendering. Are such interruptions normal? Is telling Osmarender/tiles@home to render tiles futile as well?
The hardware is apparently being upgraded; it's not normal. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Platform_Status
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

realjd

I've been working on cleaning up Brevard County a bit this week. Mainly I've been working on cleaning up misaligned roads (crappy TIGER data) and making sure dual carriageways are marked properly.

I'm glad to know that there's a problem with the renderer I've noticed that it takes several days to see my updates (and then not even at all zoom levels), other than at the mapquest OSM site which almost seems to re-render on demand.

rickmastfan67

So guys, what's your ID @ OSM?  I want to add you to my buddy list in it (already have you NE2). ;)

Scott5114

Quote from: NE2 on May 07, 2011, 10:20:16 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 07, 2011, 10:07:41 AM
I am actually discussing the case of SH-9 with another user right now via PM. I was under the impression that SH-9 between 24th Ave. S.E. as an at-grade expressway with stoplights, should be trunk, but he cites the stoplight timing and the fact that usually the lights prohibit reaching the speed limit of 50 MPH as reasons why it should not be trunk. I am proposing that we mark it as primary, we'll see what he says.
There's no such requirement for 50 mph speeds to be trunk (or motorway). A number of expressways in California are 45 or lower: http://www.sccgov.org/scc_ordinance/31302011.HTM

Well, he replied and said this:
Quote from: dufekin @ OSM
SH-9 west of SE 24th St in Norman is four-lane because it is urban (as opposed to rural east of SE 24th St) and carries more traffic. Norman is not a large city (and is fast becoming just another suburb of Oklahoma City).

As for traffic counts, check out Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG), which has traffic counts like these for other streets in Norman [I had mentioned that AADT of that segment of SH-9 is 29,503]:

30,058 West Main Street near Wylie Road
21,218 West Lindsey Street
28,440 East Robinson Street (east of Porter)

http://acog.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Acog&mod=

Rural roads (like OK-74 south of Goldsby) generally carry less traffic despite the same designation. Otherwise, residential streets in dense urban centers could get the same designation as thoroughfares between two remote towns. Although this designation may reflect traffic patters accurately, it looks horrible on the wide-zoom maps.

I use the "primary" designation for roads that connect one city with another and for US highways. On this theory, OK-9 may be primary because it connects Norman with Shawnee, but as I noted, Norman is fast becoming a suburb of Oklahoma City anyway.

So... is he just off-base here, or is this a thing where every major area has its own idea of what symbols represent what, as you seem to hint? If so that is a major, major failing of OpenStreetMap.

QuoteSo guys, what's your ID @ OSM?  I want to add you to my buddy list in it (already have you NE2).
Scott5114
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

NE2

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 07, 2011, 07:28:57 PM
So... is he just off-base here, or is this a thing where every major area has its own idea of what symbols represent what, as you seem to hint? If so that is a major, major failing of OpenStreetMap.
It's a thing where every editor has his own idea. See the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle. But since you live there, that gives you more weight than any old mapper (and the same amount of weight as dufekin, assuming he lives there).
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

NE2

Now, if you want, you can use an objective tag like expressway=yes (and even better, if you know what level of access control is used, also make up a tag for that). This isn't rendered as anything, but keeps the information there for the future.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

realjd

Quote
So... is he just off-base here, or is this a thing where every major area has its own idea of what symbols represent what, as you seem to hint? If so that is a major, major failing of OpenStreetMap.

I think the problem is that the road classifications are British which lead to vagueness when applied to American highway systems. Keep in mind that our maps usually refer to physical road characteristics (controlled access, divided highway, etc.) which don't have a bearing on legal classification. British maps are based on classification (M, A, etc.) which map better to the OSM classes.

QuoteSo guys, what's your ID @ OSM?  I want to add you to my buddy list in it (already have you NE2).

realjd

NE2

If you think about it, there's really no consistent objective system that could be applied across the US. HFCS looks 'unfinished' and outdated in many places, with roads changing classification willy-nilly. Route system means that Kentucky will be a sea of secondaries while Indianapolis will be all motorway and tertiary.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

rickmastfan67

Hey realjd, just a quick suggestion for when you twin roads.  Don't forget if they have relations to add the dirrection of traffic to the role in the relation. ;)  Especially on US highways.

realjd

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on May 07, 2011, 10:05:49 PM
Hey realjd, just a quick suggestion for when you twin roads.  Don't forget if they have relations to add the dirrection of traffic to the role in the relation. ;)  Especially on US highways.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I only started playing with this a few days ago. The relations were hidden under the advanced tab in potlach2. The only reason I knew to add them at all was that the existing roads showed a blue highlight. Adding the relation made it blue. I didn't see anything about direction of the road, other than making it one-way or not. I clicked the add relation button, then clicked the option in the list for the highway I was editing. To be honest I don't really know what it meant, other than that I was trying to copy what was there.

NE2

If you hit R it will copy everything from the previously-selected way to the current way. Then there should be a text box next to the relation for the role, where you can put north or whatever.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

english si

Quote from: realjd on May 07, 2011, 09:55:35 PMI think the problem is that the road classifications are British which lead to vagueness when applied to American highway systems. Keep in mind that our maps usually refer to physical road characteristics (controlled access, divided highway, etc.) which don't have a bearing on legal classification. British maps are based on classification (M, A, etc.) which map better to the OSM classes.
actually, I'd argue that US mapping maps better to OSM classes overall. Sure the colour scheme is British, but the difference in the primary, secondary and tertiary works better with America, IMO. Sure almost all our freeways (with restrictions on them) are motorways, which helps (France uses green for voie express, which really ought to be blue, IMV), and we have the primary route network, so blue and green map well.

The official guideline of having non-primary A roads as 'primary' screws with my brain (primary A roads are labelled trunk, regardless of who runs the road). A, B (and C) classifications relate to funding, not the quality or importance of the road, though there are correlations there, of course. However you can have big and showy B roads, or puny little A roads of little importance.

It's worse in Ireland, where the colour scheme also fits mapping and the M/N(1-50)/N(51-99)/R/L system, but not entirely the roads and their quality and importance.

In the USA there's more interpretation work, but it makes for a more accurate map.

realjd

Quote from: english si on May 08, 2011, 03:14:14 AM
In the USA there's more interpretation work, but it makes for a more accurate map.

It makes for a more accurate map only if there is consensus on the part of the mappers as to what the classifications mean.

english si

realjd, you're right. Worth pointing out that even the UK's colour system gets ignored by some OSM mappers - Bedford's A road network was almost entirely orange, along with unclassified roads so I changed it to fit the pattern, but then again it was probably more useful to have the roads as orange.

route56

* route56 needs to remember to update the Kansas Turnpike ramps at East Lawrence.

I've been trying to update OSM data around my part of Kansas.

Motorway/Freeway is pretty obvious. I use KDOT maps as a reference (primary = major arterial, secondary = minor arterial, tertiary = collector). Those maps do not, however, distinguish rural expressways. That, unfortunately, still requires first-hand knowledge.

my OSM handle is "route56", same as my handle here. :)
Peace to you, and... don't drive like my brother.

R.P.K.

jjakucyk

I did a lot of work on OSM for the Cincinnati area, and have generally been pleased with the results.  One thing that's tripped me up though is that rendering gets messed up with multi-level interchanges of different road classifications.  Once bridges are involved, the renderer seems to only use the road classification to base the draw order, and it ignores any specific layer settings.  For instance, in the following view, Columbia Parkway (trunk) renders below the various I-71 and I-471 (motorway) ramps, even though Columbia Parkway is on layer 5 and the ramps are on layers 1 or 2.  I haven't looked into it for a while, but I think there is an outstanding bug ticket, though nobody seems to care much about it.  Nevertheless, that's the one thing that really bugs me.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.10417&lon=-84.50186&zoom=17&layers=M

rickmastfan67

Quote from: jjakucyk on May 08, 2011, 06:14:00 PM
I did a lot of work on OSM for the Cincinnati area, and have generally been pleased with the results.  One thing that's tripped me up though is that rendering gets messed up with multi-level interchanges of different road classifications.  Once bridges are involved, the renderer seems to only use the road classification to base the draw order, and it ignores any specific layer settings.  For instance, in the following view, Columbia Parkway (trunk) renders below the various I-71 and I-471 (motorway) ramps, even though Columbia Parkway is on layer 5 and the ramps are on layers 1 or 2.  I haven't looked into it for a while, but I think there is an outstanding bug ticket, though nobody seems to care much about it.  Nevertheless, that's the one thing that really bugs me.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.10417&lon=-84.50186&zoom=17&layers=M

See: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3678

NE2

That and http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2675 are probably the two worst rendering issues.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".



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