Dumbest city limits

[Flint1979]

I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.

I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.

Minneapolis, Cleveland, and even Atlanta are actually smaller than one would expect, due to land area. But they all are the focal hubs of very big metropolitan areas.

Columbus, Indianapolis and Jacksonville are examples of cities that grew massively due to annexing neighboring suburbs and accumulating lots of square footage. I'm sure both Columbus and Jacksonville pride themselves on being the most populous cities of their own states, but it's quite easier when there's plenty of land to play with. However, suburbs are factored in to the size of metropolitan areas.

As for Detroit, they've got plenty of land. However, decades ago, they threw all their eggs into the auto industry bucket. They got huge! But, when the car industry crashed, the people left. As a result, Detroit has only a fraction of their peak population and a ton of deserted land that they don't know what to do with.

Detroit was declining well before the auto industry crashed. Detroit was never going to annex anymore land anyway due to being landlocked by suburbs and an International border. It's 138 square miles that's a pretty good size for a city, pretty close to the same square mileage as Philadelphia. Detroit's metro population is about the same it's been the last 50 years so the people are still in the area. Crime and a dysfunctional city council led to people leaving Detroit. The years that Coleman Young was mayor of Detroit were some of the worst years in the city's history.

[Stephane Dumas]

Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/

Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/

Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.

[mgk920]

IMHO, one of the City of Detroit's most major systemic issues is that so incredibly much of the city's land area was developed as single-family residential through the first half of the 20th century.  Due those myriad of factors later on, the market for that close in dingle-family residential totally tanked in the later-mid 20th century.  Now the city has all of this vacant land 'close in' and as people with direct memories of those 'bad old days' keep passing on, all of this 'close in' land will be discovered by the younger crowd, ripe for the picking.  We are starting to see this today in the development interest in the close to downtown neighborhood areas.

Mike

[Flint1979]

Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/

Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/

Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.

The townships aren't part of the city so Highland Park and Hamtramck were in Detroit's way of annexing land as they were already cities and Detroit couldn't annex another city.

[mgk920]

Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/

Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/

Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.

The townships aren't part of the city so Highland Park and Hamtramck were in Detroit's way of annexing land as they were already cities and Detroit couldn't annex another city.

I would not be surprised if Detroit does ultimately take in Highland Park once H.P.'s decline is complete.  My understanding is that not all that long ago, Detroit turned down H.P.'s desire to join them due to H.P. being in too bad of a declining condition.  My expectation is that if that were to happen, it will not be until after many/most of us are long gone and forgotten.

Nike

[Flint1979]

Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/

Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/

Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.

The townships aren't part of the city so Highland Park and Hamtramck were in Detroit's way of annexing land as they were already cities and Detroit couldn't annex another city.

I would not be surprised if Detroit does ultimately take in Highland Park once H.P.'s decline is complete.  My understanding is that not all that long ago, Detroit turned down H.P.'s desire to join them due to H.P. being in too bad of a declining condition.  My expectation is that if that were to happen, it will not be until after many/most of us are long gone and forgotten.

Nike

I doubt Detroit would want to take that on since they have enough of their own problems. That's a smart move on Detroit's part, why would Detroit want to take in more land that is basically the same as the rest of the city?

[mgk920]

Well, that was then, but once H.P. has completed its decline and is essentially nothing more than all vacant, open, undeveloped land, it will be a raw greenfield area with no immediate downside.

mike

[GaryV]

Well, that was then, but once H.P. has completed its decline and is essentially nothing more than all vacant, open, undeveloped land, it will be a raw greenfield area with no immediate downside.

Except for the need for services, with no tax base to pay for them.

If Highland Park were to unincorporate as a city, it would be up to Wayne County to take over government functions. It would go back to general township governance.

[Flint1979]

Well, that was then, but once H.P. has completed its decline and is essentially nothing more than all vacant, open, undeveloped land, it will be a raw greenfield area with no immediate downside.

mike

I don't see Highland Park completely emptying out it still has about 8,000-9,000 people. Back in 1950 when Detroit was at it's peak Highland Park was already declining and had around 46,000 people so it has indeed emptied out quite a bit but still has active people. Highland Park lost it's tax base when Chrysler relocated from there to Auburn Hills in the 90's. Chrysler had 25% of the cities tax base and contributed to 50% of the cities budget and had about 5,000 employees in the city, once they lost that tax base put it where it is today. But then again something could happen and Highland Park could become a viable place again we will see or maybe we won't.

[Flint1979]

And Michigan has made it difficult to annex land for cities. We have charter townships which are mostly exempt from annexation from cities or villages. A village though remains part of the township that it is in, sometimes multiple townships. There are however certain situations where a charter township isn't exempt from annexation but it's mainly to fill in islands of townships or by a vote.

Btw, Highland Park became a city for the reason that you guys are arguing against it and that was to prevent Detroit from annexing it.

[bandit957]

Too bad we can't check out any of this stuff on Google Street View, since it's broken now.

[Rothman]

Too bad we can't check out any of this stuff on Google Street View, since it's broken now.

It was broken for me for a good long while today, but seems to be fixed now.

[Flint1979]

You know the fact that the Highland Appliance store in Highland Park still has it's signage up is incredible. Highland has been out of business for at least 30 years and this has remained on Woodward Avenue since.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405497,-83.0969182,3a,50.6y,257.11h,96.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D145.07726%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[bandit957]

You know the fact that the Highland Appliance store in Highland Park still has it's signage up is incredible. Highland has been out of business for at least 30 years and this has remained on Woodward Avenue since.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405497,-83.0969182,3a,50.6y,257.11h,96.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D145.07726%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

There was a gas station near here that was like that.

[wanderer2575]

You know the fact that the Highland Appliance store in Highland Park still has it's signage up is incredible. Highland has been out of business for at least 30 years and this has remained on Woodward Avenue since.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405497,-83.0969182,3a,50.6y,257.11h,96.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D145.07726%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

What's so incredible?  Lots of businesses everywhere close down and don't remove their signage.  This one will probably remain until someone else occupies the building or it is torn down.

But it still evokes memories of their great radio commercials: 
"Today, thousands of people will shop Highland Appliance.  But who and why?  Let's find out.  Your name and what do you do?"
"Butch Padorsky.  I'm a bully."
"A bully?"
"Yeah.  You wanna make something of it?  Huh?  HUH?"...

[zachary_amaryllis]

Denver's airport is bigger than both San Francisco and Boston in land area.

I seem to remember a debacle that happened the first time it snowed after DIA opened. It was something to the effect that no one knew who was supposed to plow Pena Blvd.

[Rothman]

Denver's airport is bigger than both San Francisco and Boston in land area.

I seem to remember a debacle that happened the first time it snowed after DIA opened. It was something to the effect that no one knew who was supposed to plow Pena Blvd.

Only one of many debacles after it opened.  See also its automated luggage system...