Please pardon if this one has already been discussed to death.
I remember from my own childhood when US-12 between Jackson and Ann Arbor (before I-94) was a three-lane road, with a center lane for passing purposes; each direction had equal access and rights to the center lane. In concept, a noble notion. In actual practice, there were predictably dire consequences.
About 10-12 years ago, I went on a vacation with my youngest son to Ontario. We crossed at Sarnia, did the length of the Bruce Peninsula, took the ferry to Manitoulin Island, and ON-17 to Sault Ste. Marie, and then back home. The ON-17 stretch is the subject of this post.
My recollection of this road (subject to confirmation) is that it was three-lane much or most of the way. The critical difference was that every bit of the way was clearly marked as to which direction had the exclusive right to use the center lane. IIRC (IIRC!) each passing portion was a mile or two long, then would alternate to the other side.
The beauty of this is that every motorist was assured that he (or she, no bias here) would only be stuck behind the pokey grandma (or grandpa, or gender-free young person, no bias here) for a predictably limited time, then have reliably sufficient opportunity to pass. There would be no need and no incentive to take crazy chances. I was suitably impressed. This seemed to be a relatively low-cost alternative to four-lane divided highways.
However, I have not seen this used anywhere in the US. Maybe that's because I am culturally deprived, live such a sheltered life, need to get out more and experience the real world.
Is this design being used where I have not seen it?
--
Brian Reynolds
Hastings Michigan
The US 20 Illinois tollway in Midwest and the US 54 thread in Central states discuss the modern version and various threads have tried to find the reality of the suicide lane
The modern verion is an alternating passing lane. It has not been discussed to death. With current budget issues facing roads everywhere this along with 4 lane undivideds tolling and everything else need to be discussed.
I think they area good alternate to 4 lane divideds in low volume (under 8000 vpd) situations Missouri claims they are both safe and effective in these situations.
It's used in the U.S., though I can't think of anywhere off-hand.
3467: I don't think those allow passing in both directions at the same time.
Quote from: brianreynolds on May 23, 2012, 11:15:45 PMIs this design being used where I have not seen it?
The Swedes like it, but their engineering guidance (IIRC) stipulates that it is a bad choice for any two-lane road which is expected to exceed 12,000 VPD during its design life. They also use center cable barriers and jughandles for left turns.
The only 3 lane section of road I know of where both lanes can pass simultaneously is a short section of Old Stage Road in Chesterfield County, VA. In this photo, I was heading northbound.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F269577_2245644821862_1270395589_2756499_2292394_n.jpg&hash=160e5dc69fff99089e678141c21259c3c739e2eb)
(Edited to fix link)
That's interesting - usually you can only cross the centerline in the one-lane direction.
You can look at the Google streetview of US 63 north of Houston MO
It has about 4000 vpd,the locals probably wanted an upgrade and MODOT said here try this!
Other parts of 63 seem to have 8-10 foot paved shoulders so it looks like MODOTS cost may have been line painting.
It seems to have worked for safety and speed so MODOT looks to be using these instead of 10 million a mile 4 lane divideds
I agree with JN Winkler this is not for high volumes but really seems ideal for lower volume rural arterials where local communities want something a little more than shoulders
Quote from: Takumi on May 23, 2012, 11:42:14 PM
The only 3 lane section of road I know of where both lanes can pass simultaneously is a short section of Old Stage Road in Chesterfield County, VA. In this photo, I was heading northbound.
(Edited to fix link)
The Chickasaw Turnpike has a similar setup for a brief while.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scott5114.name%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dtpks%252Fchickasaw_tpk%252FIMG_0974.JPG%26amp%3Bvar2%3D1000_85&hash=f6028e9fcfe4390e8071baffd386ba3eccea470b)
It's been removed with the four-laning of the highway, but US 63/167 north of Ruston, LA and south of the state line used to have very hilly areas, where an extra lane was added. High volumes, but no need then to four lane the highway. It was like a four-lane undivided highway, but one direction sacrificed the extra lane sometimes.
It looks like the above photo, but the dashed yellow line was a solid double line. Maybe it was because the area is very hilly, who knows?
Mexico has a similar setup known as an A2 highway or 'supercarretera', as stated by kphoger:
Quote from: kphoger on April 29, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
A2 highways (called 'supercarreteras' in common parlance) are designed for this. They have wide paved shoulders, and the shoulder line is a broken white line. They are commonly constructed where traffic volume is too heavy for a simple two-laner but funds aren't available for a four-lane highway. Some drivers have even developed the habit of riding the shoulder nonstop, I guess so they don't have to watch their mirrors.
Edit: FYI, A2 highways are 7 meters from shoulder line to shoulder line, and have shoulders of 2.5 meters each. That's a total width of 39 feet 4½ inches. By comparison, the standard minimum width for one side of an Interstate highway in the U.S. is 38 feet of pavement (4-ft left shoulder, 12-foot lane, 12-foot lane, 10-foot right shoulder). So there's plenty of room for three vehicles to pass by each other. It still makes for a pretty cool picture, though, huh?
Virginia had this set up all over at one point.
US 1 still had this near the NC line as late as 2004:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.com%2Fpapics%2Foutofstate%2FPhoto0096.jpg&hash=43967252892d057734444b4e8003193a1efc9da8)
There is a picture of US 11 from the 1944 official where it appears the suicide is a real possibility with a curve right there (no pic on line to point to at this time...)
Mapmikey
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 24, 2012, 12:05:45 AM
It's been removed with the four-laning of the highway, but US 63/167 north of Ruston, LA and south of the state line used to have very hilly areas, where an extra lane was added. High volumes, but no need then to four lane the highway. It was like a four-lane undivided highway, but one direction sacrificed the extra lane sometimes.
It looks like the above photo, but the dashed yellow line was a solid double line. Maybe it was because the area is very hilly, who knows?
That sounds more like a "climbing lane," sometimes called a "slow truck lane," and I'm sure it's a lot more common than the scenario the other folks are discussing in which traffic from either side can use the third lane. I know the third lane without a passing zone is very common on some of the "Super 2"—style routes in Nova Scotia, for example. You'll be going up a hill and your side of the road will have two lanes, the other side will have one lane, and there won't be a passing zone for traffic heading the other way. When you think about it, you realize there's less need for passing zones in areas where there are frequent climbing lanes because the climbing lanes help solve the problem of providing room to get past. (In Canada truck and RV drivers will often pull partway onto the paved shoulder to help people pass, but that's uncommon in the US.)
The picture Mapmikey posted strikes me as being a slightly different scenario from the ones Scott5114 and Takumi posted because of the ramifications of the line colors as it relates to who has to yield the right-of-way. That is, in the pictures Scott5114 and Takumi posted I notice there's one set of white lane markings and one set of yellow. I believe that would indicate that the two lanes on either side of those white lines are intended primarily for traffic going in a particular direction and that traffic going the other way may pass across the yellow line only when the way is clear (much like any normal passing zone). If you pull out across the yellow line to pass and then you see someone coming the other way, you're required to move back over, whereas if you pull across the white line to pass you're entitled to expect someone passing the other way to move back over. But in the picture Mapmikey posted (which presents a scenario that was fairly common in Southside Virginia for many years) both lines are yellow, which seems to imply that the center lane would operate on a first-come first-served basis because nobody is entitled to demand that the other driver yield–that is, there is no preferred or presumptive direction for that center lane.
On some roads in Oregon, we have some sections of 3 lane where the passing is restricted and other sections where either direction can pass. A few places have short stretches of 4-lane so both directions can pass safely.
US 99 Grapevine was a 3-lane affair before being widened to 4-lanes in the WW II era. I believe that's where the suicide lane moniker came from. There was too much traffic for a 3-lane road.
Rick
There are many 3-laners that restrict the use of the center lane to left turn movements only (from both directions). Such roads are typically marked with a dashed yellow line w/a solid yellow line outside of it.
Some of these roads originally had the center lane as a passing lane but converted it to a left turn lane due to accidents; MA 114 through Middleton underwent such a conversion during the early 1980s.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 24, 2012, 01:01:28 PM
There are many 3-laners that restrict the use of the center lane to left turn movements only (from both directions). Such roads are typically marked with a dashed yellow line w/a solid yellow line outside of it.
....
I can think of a number of roads with more than three lanes that use a suicide left turn lane; off the top of my head two five-lane roads (two lanes in each direction plus the center left turn lane) here in Fairfax County come to mind. The particular routes that I'm thinking of were most likely built that way from the beginning, though.
In México, there is a common type of highway which has nearly the same function but different lane striping. I refer to the highway classification officially called Tipo A2 and commonly called Supercarretera.
On an A2 highway, the shoulder lines are dashed (somewhere between dotted and dashed on a typical US highway), and are intended to facilitate passing even with oncoming traffic. Slower vehicles and oncoming vehicles ride the shoulder lines to allow a passing vehicle down the center line.
I drew up a quick MSPaint illustration of a typical A2 section (on the left) and what a highway with a suicide lane and 11-foot lane widths might look like in the US.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2FThreelanes.png&hash=6469b5f9742f73b47620671199d9f1aa055eebc8)
The main difference is that, on an A2 highway, the shoulder can still be used as a breakdown lane, where as there's basically no room for breakdowns with a suicide lane, at least without widening the roadway.
the A2 is a very good idea, but I wonder how many accidents and near-accidents there would be in the US during an initial adoption phase.
I remember the photo kphoger posted of passing between two semis on an A2, and other posters remarking on how unusual and frightening that looked.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 24, 2012, 01:24:26 PMI can think of a number of roads with more than three lanes that use a suicide left turn lane; off the top of my head two five-lane roads (two lanes in each direction plus the center left turn lane) here in Fairfax County come to mind. The particular routes that I'm thinking of were most likely built that way from the beginning, though.
I've seen many of those 5-laner roadways. Baltimore Pike from PA 252 in Media to Oak Ave. at the Upper Darby/Clifton Heights border and MA 114 from Sylvan Street Peabody to I-95 in Danvers are two examples that I am very familiar with.
The only reason why I didn't mention them was because the topic seemed to be directed towards 3-laners.
Suicide lane does not equal Two-way left turn lane
U.S. 15/U.S. 11 north of U.S. 322/U.S. 22 in Pennsylvania (running along the west shore of the Susquehanna River) had that kind of three lane design in the 1960's, but it's gone now (the segment I speak of has two lanes in each direction, and a left turning lane in the middle (mostly open to traffic in both directions).
Kentucky's rural roads with passing (truck climbing) lanes will often allow traffic in the single lane to pull out and pass in the left lane of the two-lane setup. These are signed, "Pass Only When Center Lane is Clear."
Quote from: brianreynolds on May 23, 2012, 11:15:45 PM
My recollection of this road (subject to confirmation) is that it was three-lane much or most of the way. The critical difference was that every bit of the way was clearly marked as to which direction had the exclusive right to use the center lane. IIRC (IIRC!) each passing portion was a mile or two long, then would alternate to the other side.
Was it a "2+1 road" like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2012, 05:51:53 PM
Suicide lane does not equal Two-way left turn lane
I don't believe anyone in this thread said it did. I used the phrase "suicide left-turn lane" because that's what most people I know call that type of lane, but if you look back, I mentioned it specifically in response to the comment from PHLBOS, who noted that many three-lane roads have the center lane set up as a shared left-turn lane.
I think your point might be seen as "not all suicide lanes are left-turn lanes, but all center left-turn lanes shared by opposing traffic are a type of suicide lane."
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 12:03:55 AM
Quote from: Takumi on May 23, 2012, 11:42:14 PM
The only 3 lane section of road I know of where both lanes can pass simultaneously is a short section of Old Stage Road in Chesterfield County, VA. In this photo, I was heading northbound.
(Edited to fix link)
The Chickasaw Turnpike has a similar setup for a brief while.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scott5114.name%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dtpks%252Fchickasaw_tpk%252FIMG_0974.JPG%26amp%3Bvar2%3D1000_85&hash=f6028e9fcfe4390e8071baffd386ba3eccea470b)
So, I'm curious: in the picture above, is it legal to pass three abreast?
Quote from: kphoger on May 25, 2012, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 12:03:55 AM
Quote from: Takumi on May 23, 2012, 11:42:14 PM
The only 3 lane section of road I know of where both lanes can pass simultaneously is a short section of Old Stage Road in Chesterfield County, VA. In this photo, I was heading northbound.
(Edited to fix link)
The Chickasaw Turnpike has a similar setup for a brief while.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scott5114.name%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dtpks%252Fchickasaw_tpk%252FIMG_0974.JPG%26amp%3Bvar2%3D1000_85&hash=f6028e9fcfe4390e8071baffd386ba3eccea470b)
So, I'm curious: in the picture above, is it legal to pass three abreast?
The question assumes there's ever been 3 cars on the turnpike at the same time :P
Back to the OP, and Mapmikey hinted at this, there were several "suicide lane" segments in both Virginia and Pennsylvania. These have all been converted into some form or another of center left turn lane or alternating passing lanes...both US 1 and US 11 in Virginia have alternating segments of both.
Quote from: Takumi on May 23, 2012, 11:42:14 PM
The only 3 lane section of road I know of where both lanes can pass simultaneously is a short section of Old Stage Road in Chesterfield County, VA. In this photo, I was heading northbound.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F269577_2245644821862_1270395589_2756499_2292394_n.jpg&hash=160e5dc69fff99089e678141c21259c3c739e2eb)
(Edited to fix link)
Actually, a number of states allow this to happen, as long as your hill climb/descent stays straight.
Quote from: kphoger on May 25, 2012, 01:48:15 PM
So, I'm curious: in the picture above, is it legal to pass three abreast?
I'm going to second that question.
Quote from: Steve on May 25, 2012, 07:24:45 PM
Actually, a number of states allow this to happen, as long as your hill climb/descent stays straight.
Indeed, this exists in Ontario too.
Come to think of it, I was on a city street not too long ago (Chicago area?) where there was a broken yellow down the middle and white stripes on both sides. In essence, you could theoretically pass in all four lanes.
Except that, IIRC, there's a state law which prohibits passing in an intersection in an urban area; if it was a city street, it would be very hard to complete said passing maneuver between intersections.
Quote from: kphoger on May 26, 2012, 12:03:06 PM
Except that, IIRC, there's a state law which prohibits passing in an intersection in an urban area; if it was a city street, it would be very hard to complete said passing maneuver between intersections.
I get the feeling it's really meant for getting around something like a bulldozer or a double-parked car/bus. I've passed people on city streets before, though.
This concept used to be moderately popular in Europe, specifically the first generation of Autostrade in Italy which were 3-lane, limited-access highways. Most of them were eliminated or twinned by the 1960's. It was also found in France and Belgium, and there are still a few left here and there.
N20, France:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuoiJm.jpg&hash=405af38f5f7a92459db6a30ac8a78592aa8abccd)
Quote from: Steve on May 26, 2012, 12:22:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 26, 2012, 12:03:06 PM
Except that, IIRC, there's a state law which prohibits passing in an intersection in an urban area; if it was a city street, it would be very hard to complete said passing maneuver between intersections.
I get the feeling it's really meant for getting around something like a bulldozer or a double-parked car/bus. I've passed people on city streets before, though.
At least here in Florida, it's explicitly legal to pass a slow or stopped traffic impediment like a slow moving bulldozer, parked car, or bicyclist on a double yellow.
Quote from: Steve on May 26, 2012, 09:42:26 AM
Come to think of it, I was on a city street not too long ago (Chicago area?) where there was a broken yellow down the middle and white stripes on both sides. In essence, you could theoretically pass in all four lanes.
This being Chicagoland, they'd use all four for passing. :-P
Seriously, though, there used to be more streets like that (Colorado Avenue between Mall Loop Drive and Hennepin Drive in Joliet was exactly like that until the late 1990s - a solid double yellow is now down the center), and streets wide enough for four lanes that only have two marked. The drivers tend to use them as four-lane streets anyway.
Quote from: Chris on May 26, 2012, 04:25:00 PM
This concept used to be moderately popular in Europe, specifically the first generation of Autostrade in Italy which were 3-lane, limited-access highways. Most of them were eliminated or twinned by the 1960's. It was also found in France and Belgium, and there are still a few left here and there.
N20, France:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuoiJm.jpg&hash=405af38f5f7a92459db6a30ac8a78592aa8abccd)
Looking at this, I have a very hard time discerning if this road is one-way in my direction, one-way against my direction, or two-way. This may sound like elitism, but Europe could stand some yellow (or other color) markings to discern the two opposing traffic flows.
What one would be the centre line though? There's not one.
Quote from: Brandon on May 27, 2012, 08:50:21 AM
Quote from: Chris on May 26, 2012, 04:25:00 PM
This concept used to be moderately popular in Europe, specifically the first generation of Autostrade in Italy which were 3-lane, limited-access highways. Most of them were eliminated or twinned by the 1960's. It was also found in France and Belgium, and there are still a few left here and there.
N20, France:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuoiJm.jpg&hash=405af38f5f7a92459db6a30ac8a78592aa8abccd)
Looking at this, I have a very hard time discerning if this road is one-way in my direction, one-way against my direction, or two-way. This may sound like elitism, but Europe could stand some yellow (or other color) markings to discern the two opposing traffic flows.
My joking take would be it's a one way road since all roads lead to Rome...LOL!
Rick
Quote from: Brandon on May 27, 2012, 08:48:05 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 26, 2012, 09:42:26 AM
Come to think of it, I was on a city street not too long ago (Chicago area?) where there was a broken yellow down the middle and white stripes on both sides. In essence, you could theoretically pass in all four lanes.
This being Chicagoland, they'd use all four for passing. :-P
Seriously, though, there used to be more streets like that (Colorado Avenue between Mall Loop Drive and Hennepin Drive in Joliet was exactly like that until the late 1990s - a solid double yellow is now down the center), and streets wide enough for four lanes that only have two marked. The drivers tend to use them as four-lane streets anyway.
Exchange Street in West Akron was striped like that for a long time and it was four lanes by popular demand/common practice. The party ended a couple years ago when they restriped it as one lane each way with a center turn lane.
South 18th St. in Lafayette, Ind. had stretches like that south of Teal Road that had enough occasional parked cars to make driving as two lanes impractical. This was 10 years or more ago, and I haven't driven down it lately--maybe it has changed with the significant increase in traffic down that way. When I lived in that general direction (15 to 11 years ago), the area was a lot less developed, and 350 S (now Veterans Memorial Pkwy) was a lonely county road. It's now a choked artery lined with development.
The Colonial Parkway in the VA Peninsula is three lanes. Although not striped, it uses the expansion cracks as a guide, its still a suicide lane. Only through the tunnel at Colonial Williamsburg is it NOT used for obvious reasons and does have a double center line to make sure of it!
It should be noted that there are numerous segments of the Colonial Parkway where passing is prohibited (and signed as such).
Look at this! Avenue A in Denton, Texas is four lanes; and the center line is broken; which would indicate that passing is permitted over it. There is no reason for this whatsoever, and it is in my opinion probably just the result of sheer stupidity.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.204828,-97.146062&spn=0.000004,0.003133&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.204921,-97.146065&panoid=MJItdfx1-Im-0jTNJIidgA&cbp=12,10.54,,0,0 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.204828,-97.146062&spn=0.000004,0.003133&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.204921,-97.146065&panoid=MJItdfx1-Im-0jTNJIidgA&cbp=12,10.54,,0,0)
Quote from: kphoger on May 25, 2012, 01:48:15 PMSo, I'm curious: in the picture above, is it legal to pass three abreast?
The answer is in the road markings. Since there is not a solid yellow line next to the broken one, I'd say yes.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 27, 2012, 05:38:51 PM
The Colonial Parkway in the VA Peninsula is three lanes. Although not striped, it uses the expansion cracks as a guide, its still a suicide lane. Only through the tunnel at Colonial Williamsburg is it NOT used for obvious reasons and does have a double center line to make sure of it!
In addition to what froggie said, before I left Hampton Roads I noticed that fewer and fewer people were still using the expansion joints to guide them. Most cars ride the joint on each side, making the road effectively a 2-lane road with wide lanes.
^ When I was on it in December most of the cars I saw treated it as a 3-lane road as intended. Most of the traffic was on the section between Williamsburg and Yorktown, where the "do not pass" signs were more frequent. I do remember the occasional car in that section doing as you described. The section paralleling the James River had very little traffic that day, so I don't really remember how traffic drove on it.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 28, 2012, 08:34:44 PM
In addition to what froggie said, before I left Hampton Roads I noticed that fewer and fewer people were still using the expansion joints to guide them. Most cars ride the joint on each side, making the road effectively a 2-lane road with wide lanes.
that is precisely what I remember when I drove it in July of 2007. I physically did not have the room to attempt a pass down the middle - and I'll bet that if I did for a moment, the other traffic would've decided I was in violation of some law or another and possibly insane.
Quote from: Brandon on May 27, 2012, 08:50:21 AM
Quote from: Chris on May 26, 2012, 04:25:00 PM
This concept used to be moderately popular in Europe, specifically the first generation of Autostrade in Italy which were 3-lane, limited-access highways. Most of them were eliminated or twinned by the 1960's. It was also found in France and Belgium, and there are still a few left here and there.
N20, France:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuoiJm.jpg&hash=405af38f5f7a92459db6a30ac8a78592aa8abccd)
Looking at this, I have a very hard time discerning if this road is one-way in my direction, one-way against my direction, or two-way. This may sound like elitism, but Europe could stand some yellow (or other color) markings to discern the two opposing traffic flows.
Of course, you're assuming there aren't arrows painted on the pavement just out of camera shot.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 29, 2012, 09:21:28 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 28, 2012, 08:34:44 PM
In addition to what froggie said, before I left Hampton Roads I noticed that fewer and fewer people were still using the expansion joints to guide them. Most cars ride the joint on each side, making the road effectively a 2-lane road with wide lanes.
that is precisely what I remember when I drove it in July of 2007. I physically did not have the room to attempt a pass down the middle - and I'll bet that if I did for a moment, the other traffic would've decided I was in violation of some law or another and possibly insane.
I've noticed people drive it both ways. However, all of my passing maneuvers were undertaken with the car on my side keeping to the right, thus allowing me into the middle lane instead of all the way over. I have made one pass three abreast, but mostly not. And yes, there are a lot of marked no-passing zones.
Three lane single-carriageways were very common in the United Kingdom between the 1930s and early 1990s.
Obviously after the war we were rather short of cash so plenty of trunk roads got these as cheap and cheerful upgrades pending motorway bypasses later on. For example, long lengths of the A6 in the North West were like this (about 5 miles still remain over the notorious Shap Summit).
Safety considerations have all but eliminated the shortest lengths of these now, where they'd merrily charge through any vertical or horizontal alignment, today's three lane roads have either been converted to distinct priority (2+1) or had the centre lane painted out completely. Those that survive are often restricted to 50mph (originally they'd have had 70mph and then 60mph limits after the oil crisis).
I thought they were a European thing, pleasantly surprised to see they were used in the USA, although with modern traffic volumes I expect they'd have a terrible level of service today.
Quote from: Brian556 on May 28, 2012, 12:36:32 PM
Look at this! Avenue A in Denton, Texas is four lanes; and the center line is broken; which would indicate that passing is permitted over it. There is no reason for this whatsoever, and it is in my opinion probably just the result of sheer stupidity.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.204828,-97.146062&spn=0.000004,0.003133&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.204921,-97.146065&panoid=MJItdfx1-Im-0jTNJIidgA&cbp=12,10.54,,0,0 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.204828,-97.146062&spn=0.000004,0.003133&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.204921,-97.146065&panoid=MJItdfx1-Im-0jTNJIidgA&cbp=12,10.54,,0,0)
Most of the older four-lane streets in Denton use raised reflectors instead of stripes, which I dislike greatly. Those lanes are extremely narrow and rarely are there turn lanes, as well. I guess they wanted to skimp on the yellow ones, thinking a double yellow is "understood." If you ever got ticketed, you could probably get off on that basis.
http://abetter54.com/54.html
Here is the latest design. Unlike your UK case their purpose is to mollify locals who want a better road but that road has volumes of 1-6000vpd and has experienced little traffic growth.
The states just dont have the money(5-10 million a mile) to spend on those.
This Missouri case is a perfect example It carries about 3500vpd and was once planned as 4 lane divided
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 25, 2012, 09:23:06 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2012, 05:51:53 PM
Suicide lane does not equal Two-way left turn lane
I don't believe anyone in this thread said it did. I used the phrase "suicide left-turn lane" because that's what most people I know call that type of lane, but if you look back, I mentioned it specifically in response to the comment from PHLBOS, who noted that many three-lane roads have the center lane set up as a shared left-turn lane.
I think your point might be seen as "not all suicide lanes are left-turn lanes, but all center left-turn lanes shared by opposing traffic are a type of suicide lane."
A true suicide lane is termed that because traffic tends to be going very fast, and in many cases speeding up, when using a suicide lane.
In a 2-way left turn lane, traffic is slowing down or stopped, minimizing the potential for fatals in such a lane.
Quote from: 3467 on August 13, 2012, 05:44:28 PM
http://abetter54.com/54.html
Here is the latest design. Unlike your UK case their purpose is to mollify locals who want a better road but that road has volumes of 1-6000vpd and has experienced little traffic growth.
The states just dont have the money(5-10 million a mile) to spend on those.
This Missouri case is a perfect example It carries about 3500vpd and was once planned as 4 lane divided
Speaking of Missouri, I saw on MoDOT's website this page on Alternating Four-Lane Roads.
http://www.modot.org/Shared4-Lane/Shared4Lane.htm
resurrecting this thread to show a suicide lane still in active use as of several days ago. photo taken in Peru by a motorcycle adventurer named John Downs - I don't think he'd be too objecting to me using his photo here.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjohndowns.smugmug.com%2FOther%2FPeru-21014%2Fi-ChFTTKM%2F0%2FXL%2FDSC02234-XL.jpg&hash=cb9eb4e6a40c2a8551dea5dec5ef5faa726e6dc4)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 16, 2012, 02:06:52 PM
A true suicide lane is termed that because traffic tends to be going very fast, and in many cases speeding up, when using a suicide lane.
In a 2-way left turn lane, traffic is slowing down or stopped, minimizing the potential for fatals in such a lane.
What's it called when a 2-lane (1 each way) road allows unrestricted passing in both directions? I would imagine that is much more dangerous. Yet, I see it all the time. Portions of NJ 47 come to mind off the top of my head.
Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 16, 2012, 02:06:52 PM
A true suicide lane is termed that because traffic tends to be going very fast, and in many cases speeding up, when using a suicide lane.
In a 2-way left turn lane, traffic is slowing down or stopped, minimizing the potential for fatals in such a lane.
What's it called when a 2-lane (1 each way) road allows unrestricted passing in both directions? I would imagine that is much more dangerous. Yet, I see it all the time. Portions of NJ 47 come to mind off the top of my head.
Just a two-lane road. What made the "suicide" lane dangerous was the fact that both sides could use it with no restrictions what-so-ever. Thus, the potential for head-on collisions was high. It's not quite as near as high on a typical two-lane road.
Were people not educated about the idea of yielding to people already in the lane? Seems to me the dynamics are like a two lane road, except you only deal with other passing traffic, not every single car going the other way.
Quote from: Brandon on February 05, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 16, 2012, 02:06:52 PM
A true suicide lane is termed that because traffic tends to be going very fast, and in many cases speeding up, when using a suicide lane.
In a 2-way left turn lane, traffic is slowing down or stopped, minimizing the potential for fatals in such a lane.
What's it called when a 2-lane (1 each way) road allows unrestricted passing in both directions? I would imagine that is much more dangerous. Yet, I see it all the time. Portions of NJ 47 come to mind off the top of my head.
Just a two-lane road. What made the "suicide" lane dangerous was the fact that both sides could use it with no restrictions what-so-ever. Thus, the potential for head-on collisions was high. It's not quite as near as high on a typical two-lane road.
You're saying https://www.google.com/maps/preview/@39.216319,-74.914396,3a,75y,270.15h,73.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1VDhJu8eJUcqSC5wzCgq5g!2e0 (https://www.google.com/maps/preview/@39.216319,-74.914396,3a,75y,270.15h,73.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1VDhJu8eJUcqSC5wzCgq5g!2e0) is not dangerous at 50 MPH?
Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2014, 04:18:34 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 05, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 16, 2012, 02:06:52 PM
A true suicide lane is termed that because traffic tends to be going very fast, and in many cases speeding up, when using a suicide lane.
In a 2-way left turn lane, traffic is slowing down or stopped, minimizing the potential for fatals in such a lane.
What's it called when a 2-lane (1 each way) road allows unrestricted passing in both directions? I would imagine that is much more dangerous. Yet, I see it all the time. Portions of NJ 47 come to mind off the top of my head.
Just a two-lane road. What made the "suicide" lane dangerous was the fact that both sides could use it with no restrictions what-so-ever. Thus, the potential for head-on collisions was high. It's not quite as near as high on a typical two-lane road.
You're saying https://www.google.com/maps/preview/@39.216319,-74.914396,3a,75y,270.15h,73.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1VDhJu8eJUcqSC5wzCgq5g!2e0 (https://www.google.com/maps/preview/@39.216319,-74.914396,3a,75y,270.15h,73.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1VDhJu8eJUcqSC5wzCgq5g!2e0) is not dangerous at 50 MPH?
What's wrong with that at 50 mph? It's got good sight lines, and the curves have no passing zones. I use roads signed for 55 mph on a daily basis that are similar, and people usually go 60 mph on them with no incident.
Hell, roads like that are signed for 70 mph out west.
To me, what makes a 3-lane more dangerous is that two vehicles from opposite directions could attempt to enter it at the same time.
With a standard two-lane highway, you don't have that possibility.
It's "is oncoming traffic present? Yes or no"; not "will oncoming traffic randomly enter the center lane at the same time as me?"
These were eliminated a long time ago for a very good reason, and the should remain extinct.
Ok, you have a point. I still wouldn't be comfortable passing, and have seen those who do do it in pretty dangerous situations (as in oncoming traffic is present, but far enough away that they think it will be ok)
Quote from: Brian556 on February 05, 2014, 05:54:51 PM"will oncoming traffic randomly enter the center lane at the same time as me?"
if someone's already in the lane, they've got it. don't enter.
otherwise, don't enter if you cannot immediately withdraw again. that way, two people who enter at the same time will each realize their folly and hopefully at least one will abort the pass.
In California, the last section of "old style" three lane on US 99 was eliminated in 1960, just north of Fresno. This section was featured in the opening of "Psycho", complete with a "Three Lane Ahead" sign. The last section, to my knowledge, of "old style" three lane in California was on US 6 (Sierra Highway) in Santa Clarita in 1968, between San Fernando Road and Soledad Canyon Road. A small section still remains, complete with striping, near San Fernando Road. I've seen newer sections of "modern" three lane, where there is an uphill climbing lane and the downhill side can also pass. State 36 has a stretch east of Red Bluff.
The section of US 99 from Grapevine south to Los Angeles was fully upgraded to expressway by 1951. It was by far the busiest section and had over 20% truck traffic, increasing the need for passing on the long grades over the mountains. Grapevine Grade was the first to be upgraded in 1943 and Five Mile Grade / Three Mile Grade in 1948.
Quote from: Brian556 on February 05, 2014, 05:54:51 PM
To me, what makes a 3-lane more dangerous is that two vehicles from opposite directions could attempt to enter it at the same time.
With a standard two-lane highway, you don't have that possibility.
It's "is oncoming traffic present? Yes or no"; not "will oncoming traffic randomly enter the center lane at the same time as me?"
These were eliminated a long time ago for a very good reason, and the should remain extinct.
I'd be far more comfortable passing people on a three lane road than a two lane one. On a two lane road you either risk a collision or have to gun it up to 80 or 90 to pass the idiot going 5 mph slower than you want to go.
It's possible to have a three-lane road where both directions can pass yet one still has right-of-way over the other. Put the 'centerline' on one side of the middle lane and allow passing from the one-lane direction.
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2014, 09:31:42 PM
It's possible to have a three-lane road where both directions can pass yet one still has right-of-way over the other. Put the 'centerline' on one side of the middle lane and allow passing from the one-lane direction.
That's a pretty common setup in Kentucky where we have lengthy truck lanes. In those cases, where passing zones are permitted for the single lane, there are usually regulatory signs posted stating, "Pass Only When Center Lane Is Clear."
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2014, 09:31:42 PM
It's possible to have a three-lane road where both directions can pass yet one still has right-of-way over the other. Put the 'centerline' on one side of the middle lane and allow passing from the one-lane direction.
I've seen that fairly frequently. In the instances where I've seen it, essentially the striping is like a two-lane road with one side having an extra lane off to the side. As hbelkins notes, I've seen that in connection with climbing lanes fairly often if the grade is long and straight so as to allow traffic heading downhill to pass. I think that's one reason why I treat the climbing lane as though it were a normal lane–I drive in it under my standard principle of keeping to the right, and if there's a passing zone for the other side it's all the more reason why I stay to the right because it makes it easier if someone going the other way does want to pass.
I don't recall seeing the sort of sign hbelkins describes (that doesn't mean I haven't seen it, just that I don't recall it, and I've never been to Kentucky), but the striping of the sort shown in the Street View image linked below is what I'm visualizing and in that context normally the "Pass When Clear" is to be understood.
Here is a Street View example from Nova Scotia (http://goo.gl/maps/tRO5i) on a portion of the Trans-Canada Highway that was not yet dualized.
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2014, 09:31:42 PM
It's possible to have a three-lane road where both directions can pass yet one still has right-of-way over the other. Put the 'centerline' on one side of the middle lane and allow passing from the one-lane direction.
The Chickasaw Turnpike has a brief section like this. In fact, it's striped with broken lines for all three lanes, so, theoretically, eastbound traffic (heading in the two-lane direction) could use the westbound lane to pass three abreast! Of course, that would require three cars to be using the turnpike at the same time, which isn't likely...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2014, 07:51:34 PM
The Chickasaw Turnpike has a brief section like this. In fact, it's striped with broken lines for all three lanes, so, theoretically, eastbound traffic (heading in the two-lane direction) could use the westbound lane to pass three abreast! Of course, that would require three cars to be using the turnpike at the same time, which isn't likely...
I've seen that setup elsewhere, but cannot remember offhand where. it may have been in Mexico, which has its own suicide lane standards. a road is striped as a two-lane with wide shoulders. in case of needing to pass, the vehicle being passed moves to the right, the vehicle coming in the opposite direction moves to
its right, and the pass is executed down the middle.
(do
not try that in the US, btw. I've passed a car with Mexico plates going only half over the dotted yellow line, but that was with no oncoming traffic - I would not have trusted oncoming traffic to know what to do in the US.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 06, 2014, 04:15:06 PMI think that's one reason why I treat the climbing lane as though it were a normal lane–I drive in it under my standard principle of keeping to the right, and if there's a passing zone for the other side it's all the more reason why I stay to the right because it makes it easier if someone going the other way does want to pass.
Kentucky's signage is very inconsistent in this regard. In some places, the regulatory signs will say "Slower Traffic Keep Right," while in other places it will say "Keep Right Except To Pass."
QuoteI don't recall seeing the sort of sign hbelkins describes (that doesn't mean I haven't seen it, just that I don't recall it, and I've never been to Kentucky), but the striping of the sort shown in the Street View image linked below is what I'm visualizing and in that context normally the "Pass When Clear" is to be understood.
I wanted to link to the Street View example of a sign of which I'm aware not too far from where I live, but you couldn't read the sign.
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2012, 02:48:57 PM
In México, there is a common type of highway which has nearly the same function but different lane striping. I refer to the highway classification officially called Tipo A2 and commonly called Supercarretera.
On an A2 highway, the shoulder lines are dashed (somewhere between dotted and dashed on a typical US highway), and are intended to facilitate passing even with oncoming traffic. Slower vehicles and oncoming vehicles ride the shoulder lines to allow a passing vehicle down the center line.
I drew up a quick MSPaint illustration of a typical A2 section (on the left) and what a highway with a suicide lane and 11-foot lane widths might look like in the US.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2FThreelanes.png&hash=6469b5f9742f73b47620671199d9f1aa055eebc8)
The main difference is that, on an A2 highway, the shoulder can still be used as a breakdown lane, where as there's basically no room for breakdowns with a suicide lane, at least without widening the roadway.
The A2 would never work in the US, without a whole-sale change in people's attitudes when they drive. If it's hard enough to get people to keep right except to pass on 4 lane roads, how are we ever going to encourage people to pull into the shoulder to let faster drivers pass?
With regard to other 3 lane roads, I'm glad suicide lanes are eliminated in this country. The proper thing to do for a long stretch of non-curvy 3 lane rural road is to have alternating passing zones. Let's say maybe 1/2 mile of 2 lanes east and one lane west, followed by 2 lanes west and one lane east. The left lane would be for passing only, but only in one direction.
Idaho allows that sort of passing on passing lanes, and typically uses this sign for traffic that is allowed to use the oncoming direction's passing lane.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corcohighways.org%2Fyieldcenter2.jpg&hash=97f808624187cf60c5ade7c07565fa91be32ad72)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corcohighways.org%2Fyieldcenter.jpg&hash=ec0c570ba847373bb44cea37ec52815fddcf69ec)
Page 24 of this pdf http://www.itd.idaho.gov/manuals/Manual%20Production/Traffic/200PavtMkgs.pdf shows how it is used in the field.
Looking at the second picture in corco's post coupled with the referenced .PDF link, I gather the situation there is essentially the same as what's shown in the Nova Scotia Street View link I posted further up the thread, correct? That is, traffic going the direction shown in this picture has the yellow stripe to the left denoting a passing zone, while traffic coming the other way has two lanes separated by standard white skip lines?
In that situation, I think the sign might be useful reinforcement for some people, but I'd presume the way the yellow line is striped denotes that anyway–if you want to pass over that sort of yellow line, you must yield to anyone coming the other direction regardless of whether that person has an empty lane to his right, because when you cross that line you're on the "wrong side of the road."
(Practically speaking, I'd yield even if I didn't have to do so if the alternative is getting into a wreck. Being "right" is no good if you're "dead right.")
Correct.
Quote from: mrsman on February 07, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2012, 02:48:57 PM
In México, there is a common type of highway which has nearly the same function but different lane striping. I refer to the highway classification officially called Tipo A2 and commonly called Supercarretera.
On an A2 highway, the shoulder lines are dashed (somewhere between dotted and dashed on a typical US highway), and are intended to facilitate passing even with oncoming traffic. Slower vehicles and oncoming vehicles ride the shoulder lines to allow a passing vehicle down the center line.
I drew up a quick MSPaint illustration of a typical A2 section (on the left) and what a highway with a suicide lane and 11-foot lane widths might look like in the US.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2FThreelanes.png&hash=6469b5f9742f73b47620671199d9f1aa055eebc8)
The main difference is that, on an A2 highway, the shoulder can still be used as a breakdown lane, where as there's basically no room for breakdowns with a suicide lane, at least without widening the roadway.
The A2 would never work in the US, without a whole-sale change in people's attitudes when they drive. If it's hard enough to get people to keep right except to pass on 4 lane roads, how are we ever going to encourage people to pull into the shoulder to let faster drivers pass?
With regard to other 3 lane roads, I'm glad suicide lanes are eliminated in this country. The proper thing to do for a long stretch of non-curvy 3 lane rural road is to have alternating passing zones. Let's say maybe 1/2 mile of 2 lanes east and one lane west, followed by 2 lanes west and one lane east. The left lane would be for passing only, but only in one direction.
The A2 works in Texas and Oklahoma. It's the other 48 states that have problems with letting people pass.