I think that it is safe to say that outside the road community the most well-known highway for most normal people is former US Route 66. That being the case there has been some non-road community myths which have taken hold regarding the highway. I think a lot of it is self-perpetuating mythos building upon itself in popular culture intermixed with the bulk of serious research pertaining to US Route 66 coming decades ago when things like the AASHTO database weren't available.
I know in my case there has been several US Route 66 related myths as of late which I'm come into direct conflict via recent activity on Gribblenation. To that end I've found that for many the myths about US Route 66 are more important than the realities. I've also found there to be resistance to acceptance to new research and information regarding US Route 66, no matter how overt/obvious it is. That being the case I think it would be interesting to see how many myths pertaining to US Route 66 compared to with the actual realities can be complied.
Some of the myths and realities pertaining to US Route 66 I can think of off the top of my head include:
Myth: US Route 66 ended at 7th and Broadway in Los Angeles.
Reality: US Route 66 wasn't signed in Los Angeles until December 1930 and never went to 7th and Broadway. The city of Los Angeles prioritized signage of US Route 99 and US Route 101 given the western terminus of US Route 66 was debated for the first couple years of the US Route System. When US Route 66 was signed in Los Angeles during December 1930 it was signed through the city onwards to Ocean Avenue via Santa Monica Boulevard in Santa Monica via an unauthorized extension. Once the AASHO caught wind they twisted the arm of the Division of Highways who in turn had the ACSC truncate US Route 66 signage to Los Angeles at US Route 99/San Fernando Road via Fletcher. I think the 7th and Broadway terminus comes from the assumption US Route 66 was intended to be a simple one-for-one overlay of the National Old Trails Road. The National Old Trails Road did end at 7th and Broadway in downtown Los Angeles upon being extended during 1914.
Myth: US Route 66 was extended to Santa Monica by the AASHO during 1939.
Reality: It was extended during 1935, I have no idea what the sign at 7th and Broadway is referencing with 1939.
Myth: US Route 66 ended at Santa Monica Pier.
Reality: It never ended at Santa Monica Pier. As noted above signage of US Route 66 was extended to Ocean Avenue and Santa Monica Boulevard without AASHO approval during December 1930. When US Route 66 was officially extended to Santa Monica during 1935 it ended at Olympic Boulevard (US Route 101A) via Lincoln Boulevard.
Myth: The Grapes of Wrath is mainly about US Route 66.
Reality: Sort of, for whatever reason the book doesn't mention US Route 466 over Tehachapi Pass. I always wondered if Steinbeck just considered all the X66 routes to be part of US Route 66?
Myth: US Route 66 was the most important US Route out west.
Reality: This definitely isn't true. In California US Route 66 wouldn't have even been in the top five of most important US Routes. US Route 80 was by far more important US Route in Arizona.
Myth: US Route 66 started on Adams Street at Michigan Avenue in Chicago, there is even a Historic US Route 66 BEGIN sign assembly.
Reality: US Route 66 originally began at Jackson Street at Michigan Avenue (then US Route 41). When Lake Shore Drive was partially completed, it became part of US Route 41 and US Route 66 was extended via Jackson Drive to meet. The one-way couplets on Jackson/Adams came after Lake Shore Drive opened during 1955 which means Adams Street was never the start of US Route 66. It would be more accurate to have the US Route 66 BEGIN sign assembly at Lake Shore Drive/Jackson Drive.
Myth: No Interstate segment was part of US Route 66.
Reality: Not true and easily verified by a quick scan of the AASHTO Database. Many current segments of Interstate first opened as part of US Route 66, and it definitely had plenty of limited access grades towards the demise of the highway. While there are many examples of this one of my favorites was the co-signage of US Route 66 on Interstate 40 east of Barstow until the freeway was completed between Ludlow-Fenner in the Bristol Mountains during 1972.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: No Interstate segment was part of US Route 66.
Reality: Not true and easily verified by a quick scan of the AASHTO Database. Many current segments of Interstate first opened as part of US Route 66, and it definitely had plenty of limited access grades towards the demise of the highway. While there are many examples of this one of my favorites was the co-signage of US Route 66 on Interstate 40 east of Barstow until the freeway was completed between Ludlow-Fenner in the Bristol Mountains during 1972.
To further elaborate on that, the section of I-55 from Gardner (IL-53, Exit 127) to Welco (I-355, Exit 269) was built as a freeway for US-66 in 1956 as a bypass of Braidwood/Wilmington, Plainfield, and Joliet. I-55 was later added to that freeway and both were cosigned for a bit, at least until Illinois got rid of US-66.
As for importance, one of the states where US-66 was important was actually Illinois as the route between St Louis and Chicago. I would suspect that US-66 was more important in Illinois than in any state to the west due to this (except maybe Oklahoma).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: US Route 66 was the most important US Route out west.
Reality: This definitely isn't true. In California US Route 66 wouldn't have even been in the top five of most important US Routes. US Route 80 was by far more important US Route in Arizona.
Guess this is what happens when a route makes it into pop culture. I never thought it being more important than some north-south routes that cover more of the west than the southwest desert. US 99 and 101 comes to mind for CA. Even US 40 seem more important to me as a whole west of the US 81 line.
QuoteWhen US Route 66 was officially extended to Santa Monica during 1935 it ended at Olympic Boulevard (US Route 101A) via Lincoln Boulevard.
Yup, there's a diner right there that proclaims to be the "ending point" of US-66. Which is a nice touch, because US routes did technically start in the east and end in the west. But modern interstates and mileage markers probably make most people think it's the opposite. Nowadays, this intersection is CA-1/CA-2/I-10, although it seems neither state route is signed within Santa Monica (the damn relinquishment).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: US Route 66 was extended to Santa Monica by the AASHO during 1939.
Reality: It was extended during 1935, I have no idea what the sign at 7th and Broadway is referencing with 1939.
I'm curious to know more about this sign...?
Quote from: kphoger on September 17, 2022, 10:49:34 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: US Route 66 was extended to Santa Monica by the AASHO during 1939.
Reality: It was extended during 1935, I have no idea what the sign at 7th and Broadway is referencing with 1939.
I'm curious to know more about this sign...?
Here you go:
https://flic.kr/p/2g3hXRQ
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
I think that it is safe to say that outside the road community the most well-known highway for most normal people is former US Route 66. That being the case there has been some non-road community myths which have taken hold regarding the highway. I think a lot of it is self-perpetuating mythos building upon itself in popular culture intermixed with the bulk of serious research pertaining to US Route 66 coming decades ago when things like the AASHTO database weren't available.
I know in my case there has been several US Route 66 related myths as of late which I'm come into direct conflict via recent activity on Gribblenation. To that end I've found that for many the myths about US Route 66 are more important than the realities. I've also found there to be resistance to acceptance to new research and information regarding US Route 66, no matter how overt/obvious it is. That being the case I think it would be interesting to see how many myths pertaining to US Route 66 compared to with the actual realities can be complied.
Some of the myths and realities pertaining to US Route 66 I can think of off the top of my head include:
Myth: US Route 66 ended at 7th and Broadway in Los Angeles.
Reality: US Route 66 wasn't signed in Los Angeles until December 1930 and never went to 7th and Broadway. The city of Los Angeles prioritized signage of US Route 99 and US Route 101 given the western terminus of US Route 66 was debated for the first couple years of the US Route System. When US Route 66 was signed in Los Angeles during December 1930 it was signed through the city onwards to Ocean Avenue via Santa Monica Boulevard in Santa Monica via an unauthorized extension. Once the AASHO caught wind they twisted the arm of the Division of Highways who in turn had the ACSC truncate US Route 66 signage to Los Angeles at US Route 99/San Fernando Road via Fletcher. I think the 7th and Broadway terminus comes from the assumption US Route 66 was intended to be a simple one-for-one overlay of the National Old Trails Road. The National Old Trails Road did end at 7th and Broadway in downtown Los Angeles upon being extended during 1914.
Myth: US Route 66 was extended to Santa Monica by the AASHO during 1939.
Reality: It was extended during 1935, I have no idea what the sign at 7th and Broadway is referencing with 1939.
Myth: US Route 66 ended at Santa Monica Pier.
Reality: It never ended at Santa Monica Pier. As noted above signage of US Route 66 was extended to Ocean Avenue and Santa Monica Boulevard without AASHO approval during December 1930. When US Route 66 was officially extended to Santa Monica during 1935 it ended at Olympic Boulevard (US Route 101A) via Lincoln Boulevard.
Myth: The Grapes of Wrath is mainly about US Route 66.
Reality: Sort of, for whatever reason the book doesn't mention US Route 466 over Tehachapi Pass. I always wondered if Steinbeck just considered all the X66 routes to be part of US Route 66?
Myth: US Route 66 was the most important US Route out west.
Reality: This definitely isn't true. In California US Route 66 wouldn't have even been in the top five of most important US Routes. US Route 80 was by far more important US Route in Arizona.
Myth: US Route 66 started on Adams Street at Michigan Avenue in Chicago, there is even a Historic US Route 66 BEGIN sign assembly.
Reality: US Route 66 originally began at Jackson Street at Michigan Avenue (then US Route 41). When Lake Shore Drive was partially completed, it became part of US Route 41 and US Route 66 was extended via Jackson Drive to meet. The one-way couplets on Jackson/Adams came after Lake Shore Drive opened during 1955 which means Adams Street was never the start of US Route 66. It would be more accurate to have the US Route 66 BEGIN sign assembly at Lake Shore Drive/Jackson Drive.
Myth: No Interstate segment was part of US Route 66.
Reality: Not true and easily verified by a quick scan of the AASHTO Database. Many current segments of Interstate first opened as part of US Route 66, and it definitely had plenty of limited access grades towards the demise of the highway. While there are many examples of this one of my favorites was the co-signage of US Route 66 on Interstate 40 east of Barstow until the freeway was completed between Ludlow-Fenner in the Bristol Mountains during 1972.
Who is saying that no portion of US 66 was an Interstate segment?
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 10:12:16 PM
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
It would be fair to say that some people (both older and younger) have adopted a view of I-40 as the evil stepchild that bypassed the Mother Road through the Painted Desert. But even in Arizona, there are plenty of places where I-40 is on the Mother Road alignment (and some where the "Mother Road" appears to be a frontage road). We get these same type of myths in railroading.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 17, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 10:12:16 PM
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
It would be fair to say that some people (both older and younger) have adopted a view of I-40 as the evil stepchild that bypassed the Mother Road through the Painted Desert. But even in Arizona, there are plenty of places where I-40 is on the Mother Road alignment (and some where the "Mother Road" appears to be a frontage road). We get these same type of myths in railroading.
It often goes further than that. A lot of the late alignments of US 66 were actually concurrent with I-40. That being the case, there are examples where an alignment of I-40 would also be a legit generational alignment of US 66. To me denying that stuff like that was a thing was thing is selling the life and service history of 66 short.
Pertaining to Arizona, at least much of the US 66 fandom in-state does acknowledge the inherited NOTR segments and when they were bypassed largely during the 1930s. There is at least a more accurate community account as to when that transition occurred, and the alignments modernized from the NOTR (excepting Oatman Highway which was never part of the NOTR).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 11:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 17, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 10:12:16 PM
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
It would be fair to say that some people (both older and younger) have adopted a view of I-40 as the evil stepchild that bypassed the Mother Road through the Painted Desert. But even in Arizona, there are plenty of places where I-40 is on the Mother Road alignment (and some where the "Mother Road" appears to be a frontage road). We get these same type of myths in railroading.
It often goes further than that. A lot of the late alignments of US 66 were actually concurrent with I-40. That being the case, there are examples where an alignment of I-40 would also be a legit generational alignment of US 66. To me denying that stuff like that was a thing was thing is selling the life and service history of 66 short.
Pertaining to Arizona, at least much of the US 66 fandom in-state does acknowledge the inherited NOTR segments and when they were bypassed largely during the 1930s. There is at least a more accurate community account as to when that transition occurred, and the alignments modernized from the NOTR (excepting Oatman Highway which was never part of the NOTR).
The frontage roads are often not the same pavement as the original highway. On occasion the frontage road will be the original pavement but not always. Not only that when the highway has to make a curve to accommodate lets say I-40 that curve is usually not indicative of US 66. I-40 itself would be indicative of the original pavement.
My mother, along with her brother, two sisters, and parents, drove round trip from Elkhart, IN; to Los Angeles in 1961. She claims that they followed Route 66 from end to end, though I have my doubts that they added the extra time to venture all the way to downtown Chicago rather than picking up Route 66 somewhere around Joliet.
Of all the small towns that route went through, the one my mom would never stop talking about was Oatman, Arizona.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 18, 2022, 07:32:42 PM
My mother, along with her brother, two sisters, and parents, drove round trip from Elkhart, IN; to Los Angeles in 1961. She claims that they followed Route 66 from end to end, though I have my doubts that they added the extra time to venture all the way to downtown Chicago rather than picking up Route 66 somewhere around Joliet.
Of all the small towns that route went through, the one my mom would never stop talking about was Oatman, Arizona.
Non-Roadgeeks tend to speak more loosely about taking routes end to end and consider Joliet to LA close enough.
Then again, us roadgeeks argue amongst ourselves about what clinching a route actually entails. Life is so much simpler for non-geeks...and inaccurate.
Quote from: Rothman on September 18, 2022, 07:49:03 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 18, 2022, 07:32:42 PM
My mother, along with her brother, two sisters, and parents, drove round trip from Elkhart, IN; to Los Angeles in 1961. She claims that they followed Route 66 from end to end, though I have my doubts that they added the extra time to venture all the way to downtown Chicago rather than picking up Route 66 somewhere around Joliet.
Of all the small towns that route went through, the one my mom would never stop talking about was Oatman, Arizona.
Non-Roadgeeks tend to speak more loosely about taking routes end to end and consider Joliet to LA close enough.
Then again, us roadgeeks argue amongst ourselves about what clinching a route actually entails. Life is so much simpler for non-geeks...and inaccurate.
Heh, if it was 1961 then there was a diversion from 66 as it was at the time given Oatman was on the menu. 66 moved down to Yucca and bypassed Oatman circa 1952.
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Quote from: pderocco on September 18, 2022, 11:33:51 PM
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
And when legend gets rebuked by traceable facts?
https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/06/the-arroyo-seco-parkway-and-early.html?m=1
In the case of above, the western terminus of US 66 is truly a case of fact being stranger of fiction.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: The Grapes of Wrath is mainly about US Route 66.
Reality: Sort of, for whatever reason the book doesn't mention US Route 466 over Tehachapi Pass. I always wondered if Steinbeck just considered all the X66 routes to be part of US Route 66?
Steinbeck didn't care (IMO) about being factually accurate about Route 66. It was used as a symbol for a road to paradise.
Makes me wonder about Michael Wallis' book...
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2022, 12:18:38 PM
Makes me wonder about Michael Wallis' book...
You got me curious so I just picked up a copy on eBay. I'll share my thoughts once I've had a look.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 19, 2022, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2022, 12:18:38 PM
Makes me wonder about Michael Wallis' book...
You got me curious so I just picked up a copy on eBay. I'll share my thoughts once I've had a look.
He was Pixar's consultant on the original Cars. I've got the book; it's heavy on nostalgia, but does contain asserted facts therein I'd imagine you might disagree with.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: US Route 66 was the most important US Route out west.
Reality: This definitely isn't true. In California US Route 66 wouldn't have even been in the top five of most important US Routes. US Route 80 was by far more important US Route in Arizona.
There's a chance I might be wrong, but those five most important US Routes in CA during the pre-1964 era would've been US 40, US 60, US 80, US 99 and US 101. Furthermore, US 60 also went to Los Angeles, like US 66 did, while US 80 ended in San Diego (and became the likely inspiration for I-8, the Interstate that eventually replaced it).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: US Route 66 started on Adams Street at Michigan Avenue in Chicago, there is even a Historic US Route 66 BEGIN sign assembly.
Reality: US Route 66 originally began at Jackson Street at Michigan Avenue (then US Route 41). When Lake Shore Drive was partially completed, it became part of US Route 41 and US Route 66 was extended via Jackson Drive to meet. The one-way couplets on Jackson/Adams came after Lake Shore Drive opened during 1955 which means Adams Street was never the start of US Route 66. It would be more accurate to have the US Route 66 BEGIN sign assembly at Lake Shore Drive/Jackson Drive.
See, I never knew that US 66 began at Lake Shore Drive. For the real beginning, that meant you'd have to go west from the intersection on Jackson Drive, then turn right onto Michigan and left onto Adams, since Michigan is where the one-way couplet begins (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8795593,-87.624399,3a,15y,285.27h,98.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfkPKsJVx5mQdYgpHLzdr2Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfkPKsJVx5mQdYgpHLzdr2Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D194.59369%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). And then the route would become unified again once on Ogden Road. As a bonus, the downtown route passes the Sears Tower along the way (I refuse to call it Willis Tower for reasons known to everyone else).
Regarding California I would certainly rate US 50 also as being more important than US 66. US 50 still has Johnson's Pass/Echo Summit and once crossed Altamont Summit. That all year Trans-Sierra Pass puts US 50 above US 66 in my book.
I think a case can be made for US 91 being more important in California than US 66. US 91 didn't get extended south of Barstow Daggett until 1947 but was the primary (really only practical) highway to Las Vegas and points north like Salt Lake City. One probably could make an argument for US Route 395 also given it was added in 1934 and serviced places like the eastern Sierras and San Diego. Either way, I'm glad Camp Cajon also acknowledged that US 66 wasn't alone in Cajon Pass most of it's service life:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0dUCVgdfeQsR4QnuvzpiMzxXNyev35SBp1ABT8hf7jjJvQL99hNhN2RTrFdYrpRw2l&id=2109291012638939
Regarding Chicago, to me LSD and Jackson Drive seems like a better place to start the Historic US 66 signage. That was in fact the longest active eastern terminus of US 66 and LSD to me outweighs Michigan Avenue in terms of historic importance. A couple extra signs would be easy to place to direct travelers and a plaque could easily explain when/why the terminus shifted east to LSD.
I had seeing all of the "Route" 66 memorabilia that is all over the net and along some of the highways.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 18, 2022, 12:46:29 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 11:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 17, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 10:12:16 PM
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
It would be fair to say that some people (both older and younger) have adopted a view of I-40 as the evil stepchild that bypassed the Mother Road through the Painted Desert. But even in Arizona, there are plenty of places where I-40 is on the Mother Road alignment (and some where the "Mother Road" appears to be a frontage road). We get these same type of myths in railroading.
It often goes further than that. A lot of the late alignments of US 66 were actually concurrent with I-40. That being the case, there are examples where an alignment of I-40 would also be a legit generational alignment of US 66. To me denying that stuff like that was a thing was thing is selling the life and service history of 66 short.
Pertaining to Arizona, at least much of the US 66 fandom in-state does acknowledge the inherited NOTR segments and when they were bypassed largely during the 1930s. There is at least a more accurate community account as to when that transition occurred, and the alignments modernized from the NOTR (excepting Oatman Highway which was never part of the NOTR).
The frontage roads are often not the same pavement as the original highway. On occasion the frontage road will be the original pavement but not always. Not only that when the highway has to make a curve to accommodate lets say I-40 that curve is usually not indicative of US 66. I-40 itself would be indicative of the original pavement.
Are there any pre-interstate divided highway segments where one of the original carriageways still exists as the frontage road but the I-freeway was built over the other carriageway? (Such as with much of old M-78 in Michigan when I-69 was built between Charlotte and Perry.)
Also: What is NOTR?
Regarding NOTR that is an acronym for National Old Trails Road. It largely was the forerunner for what became US Route 66 from Santa Fe west Los Angeles. A lot of the NOTR corridor west from Santa Fe is a match for early US Route 66 alignments but there are exceptions like Oatman Highway and Los Angeles.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 20, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
Are there any pre-interstate divided highway segments where one of the original carriageways still exists as the frontage road but the I-freeway was built over the other carriageway? (Such as with much of old M-78 in Michigan when I-69 was built between Charlotte and Perry.)
Close but not quite in California:
Cajon Boulevard (historic 66/91/395) and I-15 (built as 15/66/91/395 in the 1950s/1960s) north of Devore in San Bernardino County.
Cajon actually used to be a four lane divided boulevard, then when the highways were moved to the I-15 alignment, the older divided route basically became one carriageway as a 2-lane road, and the other carraigeway closed off.
For decades there was a segment of Cajon cut off in Devore by the building of I-15 south of there in the 1970s, but a new connection (not historic 66/91/395) was put up in just the last 3-4 years.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 20, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 18, 2022, 12:46:29 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 11:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 17, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 10:12:16 PM
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
It would be fair to say that some people (both older and younger) have adopted a view of I-40 as the evil stepchild that bypassed the Mother Road through the Painted Desert. But even in Arizona, there are plenty of places where I-40 is on the Mother Road alignment (and some where the "Mother Road" appears to be a frontage road). We get these same type of myths in railroading.
It often goes further than that. A lot of the late alignments of US 66 were actually concurrent with I-40. That being the case, there are examples where an alignment of I-40 would also be a legit generational alignment of US 66. To me denying that stuff like that was a thing was thing is selling the life and service history of 66 short.
Pertaining to Arizona, at least much of the US 66 fandom in-state does acknowledge the inherited NOTR segments and when they were bypassed largely during the 1930s. There is at least a more accurate community account as to when that transition occurred, and the alignments modernized from the NOTR (excepting Oatman Highway which was never part of the NOTR).
The frontage roads are often not the same pavement as the original highway. On occasion the frontage road will be the original pavement but not always. Not only that when the highway has to make a curve to accommodate lets say I-40 that curve is usually not indicative of US 66. I-40 itself would be indicative of the original pavement.
Are there any pre-interstate divided highway segments where one of the original carriageways still exists as the frontage road but the I-freeway was built over the other carriageway? (Such as with much of old M-78 in Michigan when I-69 was built between Charlotte and Perry.)
Also: What is NOTR?
I think there are some segments in IL that were like this. One carriageway is I-55 and the other carriageway is the frontage road.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 20, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
Are there any pre-interstate divided highway segments where one of the original carriageways still exists as the frontage road but the I-freeway was built over the other carriageway? (Such as with much of old M-78 in Michigan when I-69 was built between Charlotte and Perry.)
There's one short stretch of four-laned US-301 along I-95 near the Carson exit (Exit 37) in Prince George County, Virginia. Due to the exit, the Interstate alignment veers off slightly to the east of the US-301 fourlane stretch, such that only a tiny portion of US-301 north and south of the exit actually is glued to the side of I-95 as a frontage road. Otherwise, US-301 is a two-laned frontage road from just north of Jarratt (Exit 20) to just north of Templeton (Exit 41). If recall correctly, much of this section of US-301 was actually four-laned before completion of I-95.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 20, 2022, 06:42:21 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 20, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
Are there any pre-interstate divided highway segments where one of the original carriageways still exists as the frontage road but the I-freeway was built over the other carriageway? (Such as with much of old M-78 in Michigan when I-69 was built between Charlotte and Perry.)
There's one short stretch of four-laned US-301 along I-95 near the Carson exit (Exit 37) in Prince George County, Virginia. Due to the exit, the Interstate alignment veers off slightly to the east of the US-301 fourlane stretch, such that only a tiny portion of US-301 north and south of the exit actually is glued to the side of I-95 as a frontage road. Otherwise, US-301 is a two-laned frontage road from just north of Jarratt (Exit 20) to just north of Templeton (Exit 41). If recall correctly, much of this section of US-301 was actually four-laned before completion of I-95.
Yes, US 301 was 4-lanes from Emporia to VA 35 for years before I-95 was there. I-95 SB from near Jarratt to VA 35 is mostly on the old 301 NB alignment.
I-77/81 also does this with some of the former 4-laned US 11/52.
I-64 between Exit 231-238 also did this with the former VA 168 with F-137 surviving.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2022, 01:17:48 PM
Regarding NOTR that is an acronym for National Old Trails Road. It largely was the forerunner for what became US Route 66 from Santa Fe west Los Angeles. A lot of the NOTR corridor west from Santa Fe is a match for early US Route 66 alignments but there are exceptions like Oatman Highway and Los Angeles.
How well is that National Old Trails Road signed out west? NOTR is mostly US 40 here in the eastern half, except I haven't seen that much signage for it (not even close to the number of National Road references I've seen).
It's signed fairly well as it follows the 15 from Victorville to Barstow. East of there, dunno.
Quote from: Quillz on September 20, 2022, 09:08:05 PM
It's signed fairly well as it follows the 15 from Victorville to Barstow. East of there, dunno.
Irony being what is currently signed as National Old Trails Road (on the street blades of County Route 66) east of Barstow almost entirely consists of 1930s-onward era US Route 66 alignments. The actual NOTR alignments east of Barstow are basically now just high clearance dirt roads which can be seen on the ACSC Map on pages 11-15:
https://archive.org/details/nationaloldtrail00autorich/page/n14/mode/1up?view=theater
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 20, 2022, 06:25:22 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 20, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 18, 2022, 12:46:29 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 11:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 17, 2022, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2022, 10:12:16 PM
Lots of people. In particular many members of the Freeways of Los Angeles Facebook Group last night, which got my mind going on creating this thread.
It would be fair to say that some people (both older and younger) have adopted a view of I-40 as the evil stepchild that bypassed the Mother Road through the Painted Desert. But even in Arizona, there are plenty of places where I-40 is on the Mother Road alignment (and some where the "Mother Road" appears to be a frontage road). We get these same type of myths in railroading.
It often goes further than that. A lot of the late alignments of US 66 were actually concurrent with I-40. That being the case, there are examples where an alignment of I-40 would also be a legit generational alignment of US 66. To me denying that stuff like that was a thing was thing is selling the life and service history of 66 short.
Pertaining to Arizona, at least much of the US 66 fandom in-state does acknowledge the inherited NOTR segments and when they were bypassed largely during the 1930s. There is at least a more accurate community account as to when that transition occurred, and the alignments modernized from the NOTR (excepting Oatman Highway which was never part of the NOTR).
The frontage roads are often not the same pavement as the original highway. On occasion the frontage road will be the original pavement but not always. Not only that when the highway has to make a curve to accommodate lets say I-40 that curve is usually not indicative of US 66. I-40 itself would be indicative of the original pavement.
Are there any pre-interstate divided highway segments where one of the original carriageways still exists as the frontage road but the I-freeway was built over the other carriageway? (Such as with much of old M-78 in Michigan when I-69 was built between Charlotte and Perry.)
Also: What is NOTR?
I think there are some segments in IL that were like this. One carriageway is I-55 and the other carriageway is the frontage road.
Much of I-55 between Springfield, IL and a short distance southwest of Joliet, IL. is that way, except that I-55 was built on an entirely new ROW and grade and much of what survives of the previous US 66 is now a local frontage/access road, with one of the old roadways being mostly abandoned and removed, but the grade is mostly still there. Sections of NE bound I-55 were built using part of the old US 66 ROW. Also a section of I-55 southwest of Bloomington/Normal, IL where I-55 was built on the SE side of old US 66. Former US 66 through the Bloomington/Normal area itself is now a major city street.
Mike
Quote from: Quillz on September 20, 2022, 09:08:05 PM
It's signed fairly well as it follows the 15 from Victorville to Barstow. East of there, dunno.
Not exactly. From Air Expwy up to Hinkley Rd, it's signed as National Trails Hwy, but those are ordinary street signs. They have put up CR-66 signs along that road, though. It's been a long time since I've driven the rest of the road east or west of there, so I don't know how many CR signs they've put up along the entire road in California.
The section from Essex to Needles via Goffs Road wasn't even part of US 66 as per the 1963 map submitted to ASHO. The 1963 request to truncate US 99 from LA to Calexico included a map that showed the aforementioned section of US 66. US 66 was already off of that alignment via Goffs Road.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 22, 2022, 12:34:04 AM
The section from Essex to Needles via Goffs Road wasn't even part of US 66 as per the 1963 map submitted to ASHO. The 1963 request to truncate US 99 from LA to Calexico included a map that showed the aforementioned section of US 66. US 66 was already off of that alignment via Goffs Road.
There is debate how closely the Goffs section follows the late NOTR/early US 66. It isn't exact but it is probably close even with the modern improvements to count. Fenner, Goffs, Bannock and Kleinfelter were bypassed during the 1930s by the direct line to Essex.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2022, 12:47:51 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 22, 2022, 12:34:04 AM
The section from Essex to Needles via Goffs Road wasn't even part of US 66 as per the 1963 map submitted to ASHO. The 1963 request to truncate US 99 from LA to Calexico included a map that showed the aforementioned section of US 66. US 66 was already off of that alignment via Goffs Road.
There is debate how closely the Goffs section follows the late NOTR/early US 66. It isn't exact but it is probably close even with the modern improvements to count. Fenner, Goffs, Bannock and Kleinfelter were bypassed during the 1930s by the direct line to Essex.
So it would seem to me that most folks that are chasing the US 66 (route 66) dream want to be told what the route was without finding out what the route was.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 22, 2022, 01:09:07 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2022, 12:47:51 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 22, 2022, 12:34:04 AM
The section from Essex to Needles via Goffs Road wasn't even part of US 66 as per the 1963 map submitted to ASHO. The 1963 request to truncate US 99 from LA to Calexico included a map that showed the aforementioned section of US 66. US 66 was already off of that alignment via Goffs Road.
There is debate how closely the Goffs section follows the late NOTR/early US 66. It isn't exact but it is probably close even with the modern improvements to count. Fenner, Goffs, Bannock and Kleinfelter were bypassed during the 1930s by the direct line to Essex.
So it would seem to me that most folks that are chasing the US 66 (route 66) dream want to be told what the route was without finding out what the route was.
Seemingly some sort of detached perspective on what Americana was is the end goal for most. I would imagine most have a vision of what US 66 was in their head and generally are unbothered if it meets with actual reality.
Quoteso I don't know how many CR signs they've put up along the entire road in California.
For portions within the unincorporated area of San Bernardino county north of Victorville, which is a substantial portion of the road, practically all of it even as far out as Goffs up to the city limit of Needles (Needles is an incorporated city). When I was out on US 95 a few years back the junction was signed conspicuously. The county did a good job with that. I believe there's even some signage on the portion east of Needles up to the Colorado River.
The CR shields aren't in the city limits of Victorville or anywhere beyond that point south, and they obviously aren't on the CA 66 portion. Many of the cities have their own bespoke signage, though, including in Los Angeles county.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on September 23, 2022, 09:51:35 AM
Quoteso I don't know how many CR signs they've put up along the entire road in California.
For portions within the unincorporated area of San Bernardino county north of Victorville, which is a substantial portion of the road, practically all of it even as far out as Goffs up to the city limit of Needles (Needles is an incorporated city). When I was out on US 95 a few years back the junction was signed conspicuously. The county did a good job with that. I believe there's even some signage on the portion east of Needles up to the Colorado River.
I do remember seeing CR 66 stuff entering Barstow in my big roadtrip last year, then some on that Barstow-Amboy stretch:
https://flickr.com/photos/csampang/albums/72157719853716044/with/51480380112/
CR 66 shield somewhere between Barstow and Ludlow
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51480847936_10fb07dfd3_6k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mrbNwu)DSC_5991 (https://flic.kr/p/2mrbNwu) by Chris Sampang (https://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/), on Flickr
A few shield shots at Ludlow near a closed Dairy Queen
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51480087162_c299a53c44_6k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mr7UnG)DSC_6026 (https://flic.kr/p/2mr7UnG) by Chris Sampang (https://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51480862211_e461c32a70_6k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mrbSLB)DSC_6029 (https://flic.kr/p/2mrbSLB) by Chris Sampang (https://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51481585364_fa540a8313_6k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mrfzJL)DSC_6031 (https://flic.kr/p/2mrfzJL) by Chris Sampang (https://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/), on Flickr
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 19, 2022, 09:11:54 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: The Grapes of Wrath is mainly about US Route 66.
Reality: Sort of, for whatever reason the book doesn't mention US Route 466 over Tehachapi Pass. I always wondered if Steinbeck just considered all the X66 routes to be part of US Route 66?
Steinbeck didn't care (IMO) about being factually accurate about Route 66. It was used as a symbol for a road to paradise.
Or road to adventure as shown in the tv series Route 66.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtsehghGv1w
Are folks stealing the CR 66 signs?
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 23, 2022, 05:33:29 PM
Are folks stealing the CR 66 signs?
Maybe, I see too many in museums not to be suspicious. All the same they don't pop up on eBay like the CA 66 shields do.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2022, 01:59:27 AM
Seemingly some sort of detached perspective on what Americana was is the end goal for most. I would imagine most have a vision of what US 66 was in their head and generally are unbothered if it meets with actual reality.
One thing you see along the old US-66 east of Amboy is rock writing in the berm north of the road that guides storm runoff into the culverts under the road. (You also see this on CA-62 further south.) 15 years ago, I ran across this:
(https://a4.pbase.com/o6/73/234373/1/95446584.kAS3eoqZ.071201079Desertlink.jpg)
It turned out to refer to the charming web site of a young couple who had spent months exploring the entirety of route 66. I wish it still existed, but the link went dead some years ago. You can also see the writing in this ancient Street View imagery: https://goo.gl/maps/2i9VirHC7NJ22mbc7 (https://goo.gl/maps/2i9VirHC7NJ22mbc7)
Unfortunately, much of the eastern part of the old US-66 in CA has been closed for years, and is likely to remain closed for a lot longer.
Isn't that something? In the middle of a drought, and Route 66 washes out. Only in California...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 16, 2022, 04:55:49 PM
Myth: US Route 66 was the most important US Route out west.
Reality: This definitely isn't true. In California US Route 66 wouldn't have even been in the top five of most important US Routes. US Route 80 was by far more important US Route in Arizona.
US-66 most important to the West?
If this is the case then Lincoln Highway, US-40, US-50,US-60 and US-70 would be important routes to join US-80 as most important routes heading to the West Coast from the East Coast.
US-101 and US-99 if it's in a North South direction within the Pacific Coast.
I would put US-66 in the same rankings as US-91, US-466, US-6 and US-395 and that it had regional importance but it was mainly a rural highway.
Quote from: pderocco on September 24, 2022, 05:34:37 AM
Unfortunately, much of the eastern part of the old US-66 in CA has been closed for years, and is likely to remain closed for a lot longer.
I did see stuff last year regarding some funding for culvert reconstruction east of Amboy:
https://www.route66news.com/2020/07/25/engineering-pact-approved-for-10-new-route-66-bridges-in-amboy-essex-areas/
Yeah, I saw a lot of stuff online about it, too. But it looks like they've got one guy with a shovel working on it, so it won't be done for a few years.
Odd that all these old bridges would die at the same time. Were they in a cult?
Isn't the current detour another former alignment of US 66 (I-40)?
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 25, 2022, 08:37:19 PM
Isn't the current detour another former alignment of US 66 (I-40)?
Not between Ludlow and Fenner. The rest of I-40 in California is later generation US 66.
One myth is some think you can "still drive the whole length of it", assuming it is simply next to the Interstates all the way.
Looks like another piece of the "Mother Road" is getting dissed once again. Part of the old 66 is now going to be decommissioned once again.
I-44 Business Loop through Lebanon, MO is being decommissioned per AASHTO.
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2022, 12:29:41 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 19, 2022, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2022, 12:18:38 PM
Makes me wonder about Michael Wallis' book...
You got me curious so I just picked up a copy on eBay. I'll share my thoughts once I've had a look.
He was Pixar's consultant on the original Cars. I've got the book; it's heavy on nostalgia, but does contain asserted facts therein I'd imagine you might disagree with.
Flipping through the intro and the California chapter I noticed a couple interesting items:
- The author does mention Santa Monica and Ocean. This was the end of the rogue 1930/1931 signage paid for by Santa Monica.
- The author does mention that some believe US 66 ended at the Colorado Street Bridge. This lines up with where the signage terminated at the Los Angeles city limit originally.
- I'm not seeing any reference at first blush to 7th and Broadway (granted I just skimmed briefly).
So far this has my interest, especially since the author is careful with his conclusions thus far. This is more than I expected from a book with a 1990 copyright.
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2022, 12:29:41 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 19, 2022, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2022, 12:18:38 PM
Makes me wonder about Michael Wallis' book...
You got me curious so I just picked up a copy on eBay. I'll share my thoughts once I've had a look.
He was Pixar's consultant on the original Cars. I've got the book; it's heavy on nostalgia, but does contain asserted facts therein I'd imagine you might disagree with.
For helping them out, he also got the part of voicing the sheriff car on the Cars movies.
SM-S102DL
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 26, 2022, 10:24:58 PM
One myth is some think you can "still drive the whole length of it", assuming it is simply next to the Interstates all the way.
I tried to watch a You Tube video about some random person travelling the road. It was more of a commercial for the businesses that he stopped at on the way. He stated that he was happy to get off of I-44 at US 59 and travel toward Miami, OK for a different pace. Didn't the route travel on US 60 to US 59 back in the day?
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 27, 2022, 10:50:01 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 26, 2022, 10:24:58 PM
One myth is some think you can "still drive the whole length of it", assuming it is simply next to the Interstates all the way.
I tried to watch a You Tube video about some random person travelling the road. It was more of a commercial for the businesses that he stopped at on the way. He stated that he was happy to get off of I-44 at US 59 and travel toward Miami, OK for a different pace. Didn't the route travel on US 60 to US 59 back in the day?
No, the route between Joplin and Miami went through Baxter Springs KS on what is now K-66 and US-69 Alternate. US-66 went through the far SE corner of KS but I-44 never has.
I meant from the end of OK SR 66 in Vinita then toward Miami.