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Why the US 46 designation was applied to a short intra-state route

Started by usends, January 26, 2021, 12:00:23 PM

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usends

Q: Technically it (barely) entered PA until the '50s, but still... why US 46 instead of a 3dus number? 
A: Turns out AASHO's original 1930s plan was much broader in scope.
Full article with map and snippets from historic AASHO correspondence.
usends.com - US highway endpoints, photos, maps, and history


Henry

And yet it continues to exist, despite the rules stating that it must enter another state or be at least 300 miles long to exist in one state, neither of which applies to it. However, after seeing plans for an extension to Cleveland, it's very interesting to find out what would've become of US 6.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

SkyPesos

I'm questioning the out of grid number in addition to its current routing. There are 2 ways I can think of to get a number between 20 and 30 for that corridor, had it actually came in place.
1) Swap US 24 and US 224, and somehow get US 24 onto that combined US 322/46 corridor
2) I had this on a fictional thread; current US 22 east of Caditz, OH can be an extension of US 36, and US 22 could be used on US 322/US 46. After all, US 22 was first proposed to go to Cleveland in an early draft before getting routed to Cincinnati.

artmalk

US 24 wouldn't work in NJ because it would be very close to NJ 24.

usends

Quote from: Henry on January 26, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
And yet it continues to exist, despite the rules stating that it must enter another state or be at least 300 miles long to exist in one state, neither of which applies to it.
They're not really rules, since AASHTO has no ability to enforce.  More like guidelines, and there are several other state DOTs besides NJ that have not complied.  There are still 19 single-state US routes (and from what I can tell it's been about 50 years since the last time AASHTO encouraged the states to get rid of them).  But of those, only four are 2dus, which to me seems slightly more egregious.  So it was interesting to learn that originally there was a grander plan for US 46.

Quote from: Henry on January 26, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
However, after seeing plans for an extension to Cleveland, it's very interesting to find out what would've become of US 6.
I don't think anything would have happened, because the US 46 proposal was along a separate corridor.
usends.com - US highway endpoints, photos, maps, and history

The Ghostbuster

I had no idea US 46 was ever proposed to go west of Portland, PA. Nor that it would go all the way to Cleveland, OH. What could have been.

BrianP

So if AASHO had taken PA's suggestion what probably would/should have happened was US 46 would go to the trash bin.  Then in it's place would be a new route, say US 406, using all of the current US 46 and then multiplex with then US 611 to Scranton to get to US 6.  So the route would then be US 406 and US 6 between NYC and Cleveland.  That seems reasonable.  The AASHO proposed US 46 route and the PA route above both seem to roughly be around 500 miles.

Alps


abqtraveler

Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2021, 05:46:42 PM
Interesting that the conclusion was "blame PA".

Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

Ketchup99

Shoot! I wish they'd sent US 46 that way, it goes right through State College and we'd have a two-digit US route.

SkyPesos

Quote from: Ketchup99 on January 26, 2021, 07:58:31 PM
Shoot! I wish they'd sent US 46 that way, it goes right through State College and we'd have a two-digit US route.
dw State College will probably get 4 more interstates under FritzOwl's plan ;)

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Didn't PA wanted to toll all of their interstates at some point, especially I-80?

abqtraveler

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 26, 2021, 08:00:40 PM
Quote from: Ketchup99 on January 26, 2021, 07:58:31 PM
Shoot! I wish they'd sent US 46 that way, it goes right through State College and we'd have a two-digit US route.
dw State College will probably get 4 more interstates under FritzOwl's plan ;)

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Didn't PA wanted to toll all of their interstates at some point, especially I-80?

IIRC, about a decade ago the FHWA denied PennDOT's request to place tolls on I-80 across Pennsylvania.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

abqtraveler

Quote from: artmalk on January 26, 2021, 01:12:13 PM
US 24 wouldn't work in NJ because it would be very close to NJ 24.
Unless New Jersey elected to renumber NJ-24. Alternatively, they could have used US-26 or US-28. I realize US-26 is used out west, but precedence for disjointed "east" and" west" segments with the same route number has been established with US-2.

Or maybe, reroute US-20 from Cleveland across Pennsylvania to New York City and re-designate US-20 between Cleveland and Boston as a disjointed eastern segment of US-10.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

SkyPesos

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: artmalk on January 26, 2021, 01:12:13 PM
US 24 wouldn't work in NJ because it would be very close to NJ 24.
Unless New Jersey elected to renumber NJ-24. Alternatively, they could have used US-26 or US-28. I realize US-26 is used out west, but precedence for disjointed "east" and" west" segments with the same route number has been established with US-2.

Or maybe, reroute US-20 from Cleveland across Pennsylvania to New York City and re-designate US-20 between Cleveland and Boston as a disjointed eastern segment of US-10.
US 10 and US 12 can swap alignments east of the Twin Cities to Gary, which would get US 10 into Cleveland by using current US 6 in IN and OH (US 6 will get truncated to Cleveland, since it's parallel to interstates from Utah to Cleveland anyways). Then US 10 can use current US 20 to Boston

Though I still think that my US 22 number idea, with US 36 on current US 22, is my preferred option for this route.

roadman65

Quote from: artmalk on January 26, 2021, 01:12:13 PM
US 24 wouldn't work in NJ because it would be very close to NJ 24.

NJ 24 should really become an x78 interstate as it does connect to the interstate system at both ends.  NJ 24 should have stayed on the streets from day one. 

That would free up US 24 for eastward extension per suggested by another user here.

I found no application in the archives of AASHTO that even suggests that NJ asked for NJ 24 to be part of the interstate system so NJ could have done that.

However, this is going into Fictional territory here and away from the OP who found evidence to support the answer to an age old question about a short 2 digit route in a small state.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

vdeane

Wow, PA rejected a US route.  There's something you don't see every day.

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 08:07:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on January 26, 2021, 08:00:40 PM
Quote from: Ketchup99 on January 26, 2021, 07:58:31 PM
Shoot! I wish they'd sent US 46 that way, it goes right through State College and we'd have a two-digit US route.
dw State College will probably get 4 more interstates under FritzOwl's plan ;)

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Didn't PA wanted to toll all of their interstates at some point, especially I-80?

IIRC, about a decade ago the FHWA denied PennDOT's request to place tolls on I-80 across Pennsylvania.
That, and PA had proposed to build the major corridors as Turnpike spurs prior to the interstates coming to be and the 90% federal share proved too difficult to resist.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 08:07:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on January 26, 2021, 08:00:40 PM
Quote from: Ketchup99 on January 26, 2021, 07:58:31 PM
Shoot! I wish they'd sent US 46 that way, it goes right through State College and we'd have a two-digit US route.
dw State College will probably get 4 more interstates under FritzOwl's plan ;)

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Didn't PA wanted to toll all of their interstates at some point, especially I-80?

IIRC, about a decade ago the FHWA denied PennDOT's request to place tolls on I-80 across Pennsylvania.

It was denied because the Fed rules said tolls had to be used to maintain the route they would be placed on, and PA kept saying they'll use the tolls to maintain mass transit instead. All PA had to do was reallocate funding from other sources for mass transit purposes, but they were so hard-headed about using the tolls for a blatantly unauthorized expenditure, that the feds ultimately just had to deny the application.

abqtraveler

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 26, 2021, 09:40:04 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 08:07:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on January 26, 2021, 08:00:40 PM
Quote from: Ketchup99 on January 26, 2021, 07:58:31 PM
Shoot! I wish they'd sent US 46 that way, it goes right through State College and we'd have a two-digit US route.
dw State College will probably get 4 more interstates under FritzOwl's plan ;)

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Didn't PA wanted to toll all of their interstates at some point, especially I-80?

IIRC, about a decade ago the FHWA denied PennDOT's request to place tolls on I-80 across Pennsylvania.

It was denied because the Fed rules said tolls had to be used to maintain the route they would be placed on, and PA kept saying they'll use the tolls to maintain mass transit instead. All PA had to do was reallocate funding from other sources for mass transit purposes, but they were so hard-headed about using the tolls for a blatantly unauthorized expenditure, that the feds ultimately just had to deny the application.

I remember that. It was Act 44 that directed the diversion of $450 million per year from the Pennsylvania Turnpike system to help maintain non-toll roads and bridges managed by PennDOT. Act 44 was amended with Act 89 in 2013 that directed the $450 million payout from the PTC to exclusively subsidize mass transit. The FHWA would not allow Pennsylvania to toll I-80 until Act 44 was repealed or otherwise amended to ensure that funds collected on I-80 stayed on I-80.

https://www.paturnpike.com/business/act44_plan.aspx
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

kenarmy

Just a reminder that US 6, 49, 50, and 98 are superior to your fave routes :)


EXTEND 206 SO IT CAN MEET ITS PARENT.

kphoger

Quote from: kenarmy on January 26, 2021, 11:08:38 PM
46 and 44 should both be branches of 6..

All those fours and sixes...  Now I've got this stuck in my head... which is OK by me...

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

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Roadgeek Adam

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B.A. History, Montclair State University 2013-15
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Alps


kenarmy

omg i'm sorry I was just thinking of a solution. But the NJ 6 idea is immaculate.
Just a reminder that US 6, 49, 50, and 98 are superior to your fave routes :)


EXTEND 206 SO IT CAN MEET ITS PARENT.

BrianP

Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2021, 05:46:42 PM
Interesting that the conclusion was "blame PA".

Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
There's a big difference between the two.  US 46 would have used existing roads. Which PA said a section of which wasn't suitable.  While I-80 was a new modern highway which means much better highway geometry.

Plus with 90-10 funding it behooved PA to want I-80 built to help with mobility in northern PA.  Routes like US 322 west of Harrisburg, US 120 and US 6 may have become ADHS corridors if I-80 was not built.

SkyPesos

Quote from: BrianP on January 27, 2021, 10:17:58 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 26, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2021, 05:46:42 PM
Interesting that the conclusion was "blame PA".

Ironically, 30 years after Pennsylvania rejected routing US-46 through the middle of the state, they approved Interstate 80 along the same general corridor. That baffles me even more since I-80 provides a toll-free alternative to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
There's a big difference between the two.  US 46 would have used existing roads. Which PA said a section of which wasn't suitable.  While I-80 was a new modern highway which means much better highway geometry.

Plus with 90-10 funding it behooved PA to want I-80 built to help with mobility in northern PA.  Routes like US 322 west of Harrisburg, US 120 and US 6 may have become ADHS corridors if I-80 was not built.
The original plan was for an interstate on the US 6 corridor in PA, numbered I-84 and I-80 on the PA turnpike, splitting at Harrisburg with I-80S to Philadelphia and I-80N via I-78 to NYC. If the current I-80 alignment in PA wasn't built, there will most likely be an interstate on current US 6, and an ADHS corridor on US 322 as you mentioned, most likely west into Ohio. After all, State College is pretty important for the state as it contains the state's flagship university, so they would want an expressway link to the west.



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