Route designations exist to help the traveling public navigate. Gaps don't work for those purposes. Now, I suspect there may be some differences in how one thinks of the border at play. Ontario seems to very much be taking them as "ports of entry" rather than just random toll booth-like things on an otherwise continuous route. I was trying to just state how Ontario doesn't designate routes to the border, and you jumped down my throat. Clearly you're letting your opinion of past "discussions" color how you deal with me now.
And for the record, despite the placement of the "ends" sign (which tends to be approximate in the US and not an indication of the exact spot of the pavement a route ends), it officially goes to the border in the middle of the bridge.
No, you accuse me of not reading your words but you continue to misunderstand what I have said twice now very explicitly.
- Ontario does not designate highways to the border as they do not run there. Provinces have no authority over Federal facilities.
- Michigan and NY do have control of the bridges and it makes sense they would incorporate them into their routes. This is primarily an accounting type thing as signage at the international bridges does not refer to them as part of the respective highways. In fact, MDOT even deliberately makes it look like it's not as that is more conducive to the driving environment.
- Route continuity makes sense when one is driving between routes. However, an international bridge is its own intermediate destination, requiring a vastly different behaviour than simple driving between points A&B.
Let's put it this way, one can't sign and designate the route and doesn't, the other can
but still doesn't.
Either way, it's left Ontario's highway "system" with a ton of gaps that are unlike anything else on the entire continent. That can't possibly serve through traffic going through towns very well.
A "ton of gaps" ? - there are 6 in the King's Highway network, and absolutely none of them have through traffic between them.
And really not atypical of North America, in fact here's a thread I found on the subject with two seconds of googling.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17050.0
That is not how I meant it and I think you know that. Let's take a look at the original sentence in question:
Ontario is a lot stricter on route signage with respect to jurisdiction and roadway standards than the US is - and the border plazas are no exception.
To put this in a mathematical way: "Ontario is a lot stricter on route signage with respect to (jurisdiction and roadway standards) than the US is...". Stop twisting my words to mean what you want.
Roadway design has been a tangential part of these discussions in the past, but if that is not your intended meaning in this instance then I do apologize for homing in on that. I was not deliberately trying to twist your words, I legitimately just interpreted it incorrectly, and again, I do apologize for that.
That being said, that clarified statement is still completely incorrect. Ontario plays so, so, so fast and loose with signage, especially route signage. Like, the blurring of lines between jurisdictions and design standards throughout this province are massive.
I already covered off jurisdictional, but for design,
this and
this, and
this and
this, and
this and
this, are supposedly at respective equivalent levels.
I'm not saying I like it, in fact I'd prefer that we were stricter about that. But that's the situation we're in.
Absolutely, as 400-series standards are less stringent than Interstate standards. Plus there's a pile of stuff throughout the province where existing 400-series routes have substandard stuff on them. Like this. Or this. Or this. Or this.
Two of those certainly count (the last reminding me of Québec, even), but the middle two don't. One is RR 420 and not ON 420, and the other is an endpoint.
No, Hwy 420 from Stanley Street to the Rainbow Bridge was transferred December 4, 2002 but then re-established under a Connecting Link agreement effective April 30, 2003. The highway is continuous all the way to the bridge. Also, could have just as easily picked that Stanley intersection, which has sidewalk, entrances, curb & gutter, and of course a traffic signal right on a 400-series mainline.
And Hwy 406 makes a turn, that's not the actual terminus. East Main St west of the Canal is designated as Hwy 406. The end of the highway is behind the Google car there.
Not to mention the other at grade intersections on Hwy 400, or the one on Hwy 402 that was only eliminated because the Feds wanted to expand the customs plaza and bought that land up. Or the signalized, undivided portions of Hwys 406 & 407 that existed up until just a few years ago for them.
You've said Ontario has stricter standards, but that is absolutely not true.
That's your opinion, but you and the others are all the same: you all twist my words like a prosecutor more concerned with sending someone to jail than sending the right person to jail. "Anything you say can and will be used against you" and all that. I am sick and tired of it. I have no idea what I've done to offend you guys, but I'm sick and tired of the attacks.
I don't twist your words. If your point is not clearly understood, just clarify it.
Though wait, what did I say earlier?
your act of All high and mighty when making things up then playing the victim when called on it.
I have Asperger's, so maybe that plays a part - people often misinterpret things I say in ways I don't intend. Or maybe there are enough linguistic and cultural differences between the US and English-speaking Canada to cause problems but not enough to get any leeway (could explain why I have no problems with French-speaking Canadians, who I seem to get along with better than even other Americans). I don't know, and at this point, I don't care.
Maybe it's that you don't communicate as well as you think you do and act like you're the authority on things when you're out of your depth then claim it's everyone else's fault when you get questioned on it?
I just know that this word twisting is a huge pet peeve of mine and it's doing nothing for my opinion of you three because of it. I very nearly left the forum over the last incident. Now yes, I should have used the phrase "interstate quality" rather than "interstate standards" (the latter of which evokes specific guidelines that I did not intend) in the similar "discussion" in the other thread. But most people just figure out what I meant and engage on that basis. They don't become abusive assholes and hold it against me until the end of time. Maybe it's true that other countries are worse than the US for individuals who aren't neurotypical.
Honestly, if anything, you strike me as the pedantic one.
As I said, you can clarify, don't just say "oh everyone can know what I meant" when that's completely untrue. A sizeable part of communication is lost in a text-only medium. So sometimes you need to clarify. But also sometimes you're just wrong.
Speaking as someone in another country who isn't neurotypical, I mean yes it has its challenges, but I'd imagine not too different vs the US. I wouldn't resort to childish name calling though, so who knows what the differences truly are.
One more thing - the "legally impossible" aspect is clearly an Ontario thing. Just look at Québec - there are two federal bridges in Montréal, yet the route designations don't stop and start on either side - they continue right through.
Actually, the designations do. They may sign it across, but a provincial highway cannot be designated on federal lands and structures. It's the inverse of the MDOT situation, the route is signed but not designated, because it continues on both sides. At the border that doesn't happen, so again, why would that even be done?
Honestly, the whole point of my comment in this thread was to mention how Ontario doesn't designate routes to the border and that ideas like "match the 401 number on the Michigan side of the bridge" don't really make sense because of that, and yet you're silent on the people suggesting those things. You seem to reserve your ire for me. And I honestly don't know why.
That's because you went out of your way to say additional things regarding Ontario's standards and practices that were completely untrue when examined. Things I, through my professional and personal experience, have very detailed knowledge of.
I thought you were trolling or baiting, because this isn't the first thread where you've brought those tangentially related things up out of the blue. But, if you truly are that oblivious, that you had no idea that would look like obvious trolling and oblivious to the gross inaccuracy of what you were saying, then I'm sorry if my response was harsh.
You claim it's "making things up", "acting all high and mighty", and "not discussing things in good faith", yet from my perspective you and AsphaltPlanet just started attacking me out of the blue in the Detroit Bridge Wars thread, which probably only served to cement your impression (however it came about) because I don't argue well when I feel attacked - the emotion scrambles my brain. Clearly I must have done something way back when to offend you two and never known it.
No, you just said something I disagreed with, and instead of a constructive argument you flipped out and decided to give it right back.
In any event, I hope this has cleared the air. I never take anything on here personally and I'm sorry if you have.
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Topic: Gordie Howe Bridge (US-Canada) (Read 14136 times)