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Interstate 49 Texas (5 miles)

Started by Guysdrive780, November 27, 2014, 03:37:39 PM

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dariusb

I know that I-30 is currently being widened to 6 lanes. That's at least one thing they've gotten right because with all of the additional traffic due to TexAmericas , I-369 and I-49 traffic counts are about to skyrocket!
It's a new day for a new beginning.


Bobby5280

Quote from: bwana39I tend to agree it will never get built unless it is a toll road.

I never suggested a toll road would be a feasible solution for a bypass around the NW side of Texarakana from I-20 up to I-49. Unless the tolls are dirt cheap it probably wouldn't generate the traffic numbers needed to make it self sufficient. The toll rates on existing express lanes and toll roads in Texas can get fairly high.

My thinking is since that highway segment going around the NW side of Texarkana is relatively short it's not worth building at all unless it can be built/upgraded into a conventional freeway.

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 29, 2021, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: bwana39I tend to agree it will never get built unless it is a toll road.

I never suggested a toll road would be a feasible solution for a bypass around the NW side of Texarakana from I-20 up to I-49. Unless the tolls are dirt cheap it probably wouldn't generate the traffic numbers needed to make it self sufficient. The toll rates on existing express lanes and toll roads in Texas can get fairly high.

My thinking is since that highway segment going around the NW side of Texarkana is relatively short it's not worth building at all unless it can be built/upgraded into a conventional freeway.

The I-30 EB to I-49NB would save around 15 miles period (Using state line) or 20 miles for freeway only.  I agree it needs to be controlled access or at least have the facility to expand it to 4-lane controlled access. As to tolls; it is kind of like a toll ramp. Everyone said they would never work, strangely they get used in DFW all of the time. The part from the lake to interstate 30 is a little more problematic.

Either way the interest will not come about until the interstate is complete from at least Texarkana to DeQueen or maybe even all the way from Texarkana to Joplin.  There will be no planning for the eventuality AND it will come to a head when there is a steady line of trucks on FM2253 and FM559.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

bwana39

#28
Quote from: Grzrd on November 28, 2014, 10:34:58 AM
Quote from: Guysdrive780 on November 28, 2014, 09:24:13 AM
I found something. I will dig deeper http://www.ktbs.com/story/22374799/texarkana-could-get-toll-road

The OP in this thread mentions how the new terrain section of the I-69 Corridor from the Sulphur River to I-30 (presumably near the TexAmericas Center) was included in a 2011 bill for approval as a toll road. However, that approval was contingent on construction beginning in 2015.  Neighborhood opposition has stalled the environmental process of selecting the new terrain I-69 Corridor; 2015 construction will not happen.

I never read the bill and I am not sure if the Northern Loop from I-30 in Texas to the TX/AR state line was also approved for tolls.  However, the current FEIS for the Northern Loop will have to be redone if the new terrain section of the I-69 Corridor (new location for I-369?) is approved and/or built.

This post from AHTD includes a link for the routing of the 5.36 miles of I-49 through Texas.  Here is a snip from the map:



I assume Exit 44 would be the Northern Loop exit; I cannot imagine Texas tolling either the approximate 2 miles of I-49 from the Northern Loop/ I-49 interchange to US 71/59 at the state line or the entire 5.36 miles of I-49 in Texas.

Exit 44 would probably be the Summerhill Road extension.

As to the map, everything I have heard about the crossing here, seems to indicate a crossing further to the west.  Does anyone actually know where the ROW is?
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: Grzrd on November 28, 2014, 10:34:58 AM


Just out of idle curiosity, why are they planning on going through Texas? It seems like it would be easier to just go north from Louisiana into Arkansas, and leave Texas out of the equation.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

bwana39

#30
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Grzrd on November 28, 2014, 10:34:58 AM


Just out of idle curiosity, why are they planning on going through Texas? It seems like it would be easier to just go north from Louisiana into Arkansas, and leave Texas out of the equation.

That one is easy..... Texas will help (perhaps even completely) pay for the bridges over the Red River. The two bridges on US-71 one starts in Texas and ends in Arkansas. Texas paid for nearly all The local portion except the ROW (which Arkansas technically owns due to the stupid border treaty between the United States and the Republic of Texas). The other one starts in Arkansas and ends in Arkansas. Texas paid for half of it 

The original plan was for I-49 to follow a much different route.  The revised US-71 route below was going to be the eventual I-49 route.  Orr Chevrolet sits in the middle of that ROW now.

Bottom line is Arkansas decided to build I-49 all on the Arkansas side.  Sometimes the two Texarkanas function as one city. Some time they act like acrimoniously divorced spouses.  There was a period from around 2005 to about 2015 that it was outwardly hostile.  It is some better now, but just some. 

I left out one thing. Little River County never changed their plans for how it was to run there. They had put capital improvements in place in and around Ashdown for I-49 to run west of town. Because of how the river runs, and how the Domtar Paper Mill sits  it has to cross significantly west of the current junction; meaning from Texas. 

Quote from: bwana39 on April 19, 2021, 03:33:05 PM
It would save a bunch of miles and as much as we want Texarkana to be a small town, the freeways are as congested as in the cities.

Here was something I wandered into... The minute order for US-71 in Texas. This is still on the books.


Minute Order 100814, 04/28/1992; Des Ltr 03-1992, 09/14/1992
From the Texas/Arkansas S/L north of Texarkana, southward and concurrent with US 59 to IH 30; and then continuing southward on State Line Road to its junction with US 67/US 82, a distance of approximately 8.4 miles; and also on new location from the Texas/Arkansas S/L, northwest of Texarkana, southeastward to the intersection of IH 30/US 59; then southward and concurrent with US 59 to SH 93/SL 151; then southward, eastward and concurrent with SL 151 to State Line Road, a total distance of approximately 24.6 miles. (Bowie County)  (New Description)  Section on new location added from the Texas/Arkansas State Line, northwest of Texarkana, southeastward to State Line Rd in south Texarkana. Upon completion of the new location of US 71, the present designation of US 71 north of Texarkana, from the Texas/Arkansas State Line southward to IH 30 will be cancelled and retained as US 59; the present designation of US 71, from IH 30 southward to its junction with US 67/US 82 will be cancelled and redesignated in conjunction and cooperation with the State of Arkansas; the present designation of SL 151, from US 59.eastward to State Line Road will be cancelled and retained as US 71.


This basically would be from the proposed crossing of I-49 on the Red River to the existing I-369. There really isn't a path across Texarkana to get there absent tearing down half of Pleasant Grove.  I really figure this was an oversight, but...... It is still there.

I expect at SOME point, the route that the proposed toll road was supposed to take will be built more or less, but that will come AFTER the freeway is finished from near Sulphur River to Loop 151 / the current I-369.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

dariusb

I wonder when this section of I-49 will start construction? Probably decades away since I-69/369 is the priority in Texas right now.
It's a new day for a new beginning.

US71

Quote from: dariusb on May 02, 2021, 01:27:50 PM
I wonder when this section of I-49 will start construction? Probably decades away since I-69/369 is the priority in Texas right now.

Maybe if Arkansas does something, but it's not a priority for them right now, unless some corporate entity sets up shop in the area,
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

bwana39

#33
Quote from: dariusb on May 02, 2021, 01:27:50 PM
I wonder when this section of I-49 will start construction? Probably decades away since I-69/369 is the priority in Texas right now.

For Texas to build their part, Arkansas has to be on the ground building the portion from DeQueen to the Red River. The proposed path from the Red River to DeQueen runs cross country after it leaves the west side of Ashdown. There are zero convenient places to go back to US-71 and very few that make it worthwhile to go to AR-41. This means that the whole approximate 40 mile part including crossing the Little River will need to be opened at the same time the Texas part is and vice versa.

Quote from: US71 on May 02, 2021, 01:34:34 PM
Maybe if Arkansas does something, but it's not a priority for them right now, unless some corporate entity sets up shop in the area,

US71 hits the nail on the head.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

abqtraveler

Quote from: bwana39 on May 04, 2021, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: dariusb on May 02, 2021, 01:27:50 PM
I wonder when this section of I-49 will start construction? Probably decades away since I-69/369 is the priority in Texas right now.

For Texas to build their part, Arkansas has to be on the ground building the portion from DeQueen to the Red River. The proposed path from the Red River to DeQueen runs cross country after it leaves the west side of Ashdown. There are zero convenient places to go back to US-71 and very few that make it worthwhile to go to AR-41. This means that the whole approximate 40 mile part including crossing the Little River will need to be opened at the same time the Texas part is and vice versa.

Quote from: US71 on May 02, 2021, 01:34:34 PM
Maybe if Arkansas does something, but it's not a priority for them right now, unless some corporate entity sets up shop in the area,

US71 hits the nail on the head.

I'm thinking the portion of I-49 that will be incorporated into the northern loop around Texarkana might get finished sooner rather than later, as I-369 is extended north of I-30. I suspect they would build some ramp stubs where I-49 will eventually leave the north loop and continue north toward the Red River.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

bwana39

Quote from: abqtraveler on May 04, 2021, 03:16:03 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 04, 2021, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: dariusb on May 02, 2021, 01:27:50 PM
I wonder when this section of I-49 will start construction? Probably decades away since I-69/369 is the priority in Texas right now.

For Texas to build their part, Arkansas has to be on the ground building the portion from DeQueen to the Red River. The proposed path from the Red River to DeQueen runs cross country after it leaves the west side of Ashdown. There are zero convenient places to go back to US-71 and very few that make it worthwhile to go to AR-41. This means that the whole approximate 40 mile part including crossing the Little River will need to be opened at the same time the Texas part is and vice versa.

Quote from: US71 on May 02, 2021, 01:34:34 PM
Maybe if Arkansas does something, but it's not a priority for them right now, unless some corporate entity sets up shop in the area,

US71 hits the nail on the head.

I'm thinking the portion of I-49 that will be incorporated into the northern loop around Texarkana might get finished sooner rather than later, as I-369 is extended north of I-30. I suspect they would build some ramp stubs where I-49 will eventually leave the north loop and continue north toward the Red River.

I-369 CANNOT be extended directly to the north of I-30.

The original plan was for I-49 (at the time called "New US-71" ) was to go from the current south loop at I-49 or the current (old) US-71 around the southwest side.  What is now I-369 would have been I-49. From the current I-30 / I-369 intersection, it was planned for I-49 to proceed pretty much directly north to the eventual Red River crossing.  Then Arkansas took it upon themselves to build I-49 around the entire east side of Texarkana.  The originally planned ROW north of I-30 has been built out in a manner making it mostly, if not completely impossible to build anything significant through there.

Any western connector would need to be out around Leary (Loosely following the path of FM 2253 or something west to that.    For it to be a good fit with I-369, it would need to go all the way down to the current US-59 / FM2148 intersection.

As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa. 
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

sprjus4

Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 02:56:14 PM
As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa.
US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

bwana39

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 02:56:14 PM
As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa.
US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

Agreed. Pretty much the main usefulness of I-49 north from Texarkana is as an extension of US-59/ I-369
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

Quote from: sprjus4US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

Driving from Joplin to Dallas the combos of I-44/I-35 and I-44/US-69 are both shorter routes than a completed I-49 and I-30 combo. There is significantly less mileage savings driving from NW Arkansas down to Dallas. Drivers have to take US-412 West to reach US-69 or I-44.

Both I-44 and US-69 have notable disadvantages. I-44 is tolled thru most parts of Oklahoma. 3 urban segments and a short stretch near the Red River are the only exceptions. The tolls are a relative bargain compared to other toll roads in the nation; however, toll rates do go up quite a bit for larger commercial vehicles and big rig trucks. Most of US-69 from Big Cabin down to the Red River is not limited access. Certain zones are known for being speed traps.

Once I-49 is completed I would expect a great of traffic from NWA headed to Dallas to use I-49 and I-30. There won't be any tolls along that way and speed traps will be down to a minimum.

sprjus4

Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 11:23:06 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 02:56:14 PM
As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa.
US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

Agreed. Pretty much the main usefulness of I-49 north from Texarkana is as an extension of US-59/ I-369
And I-49 itself from southern Louisiana / New Orleans / Baton Rouge / Lafayette / Shreveport. Two major north south corridors converge into one at Texarkana.

I'd expect increased traffic overall given vehicles from these points to the current I-49 north of I-40 use other four lane routes instead of the 100+ mile 2 lane trek north of Texarkana.

edwaleni

Quote from: US71 on May 02, 2021, 01:34:34 PM
Quote from: dariusb on May 02, 2021, 01:27:50 PM
I wonder when this section of I-49 will start construction? Probably decades away since I-69/369 is the priority in Texas right now.

Maybe if Arkansas does something, but it's not a priority for them right now, unless some corporate entity sets up shop in the area,

Agreed.  If Amazon or Walmart wanted a new distribution hub north of Texarkana, or even north of the Red River, the road would be built lickety split.

bwana39

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 11:28:14 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 11:23:06 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 02:56:14 PM
As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa.
US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

Agreed. Pretty much the main usefulness of I-49 north from Texarkana is as an extension of US-59/ I-369
And I-49 itself from southern Louisiana / New Orleans / Baton Rouge / Lafayette / Shreveport. Two major north south corridors converge into one at Texarkana.

I'd expect increased traffic overall given vehicles from these points to the current I-49 north of I-40 use other four lane routes instead of the 100+ mile 2 lane trek north of Texarkana.

Lafayette and MAYBE Baton Rouge: I really don't see I-49 ever netting traffic from East of Baton Rouge when I-49 is completed. I-55 and US-63 is a closer and better route to Kansas City much less Saint Louis.

Mapping this, It makes extending freeway  from Pine Bluff to east of Monroe to Natchez then Baton Rouge make a whole lot of sense.  Really more sense than I-69 across NW Louisiana and Arkansas.

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

sprjus4

Quote from: bwana39 on May 07, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Lafayette and MAYBE Baton Rouge: I really don't see I-49 ever netting traffic from East of Baton Rouge when I-49 is completed. I-55 and US-63 is a closer and better route to Kansas City much less Saint Louis.
St. Louis definitely - I-55 is straight shot from New Orleans to St. Louis.

Kansas City... ehh. Google Maps offers various routes from New Orleans that contain hundreds of arterial mileage with one all freeway alternative - I-55 to I-70 - which is 60 more miles though only like 10 minutes longer than the others - for a long distance trip, probably the current preferred route.

Once I-49 is complete through that large expanse in Arkansas between Fort Smith and Texarkana, it will only be about 30 miles longer than those current arterial / interstate combinations. Considering all interstate highway throughout, 75 mph for most of that distance, it will easily be faster than those other routes.

abqtraveler

Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 11:23:06 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 02:56:14 PM
As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa.
US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

Agreed. Pretty much the main usefulness of I-49 north from Texarkana is as an extension of US-59/ I-369
Oklahoma would not be happy, but shunpikers would be, as I-30 and I-49 would provide a toll-free alternative to the I-44 turnpike between Oklahoma City and Joplin.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

bwana39

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 07, 2021, 02:03:01 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 07, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Lafayette and MAYBE Baton Rouge: I really don't see I-49 ever netting traffic from East of Baton Rouge when I-49 is completed. I-55 and US-63 is a closer and better route to Kansas City much less Saint Louis.
St. Louis definitely - I-55 is straight shot from New Orleans to St. Louis.

Kansas City... ehh. Google Maps offers various routes from New Orleans that contain hundreds of arterial mileage with one all freeway alternative - I-55 to I-70 - which is 60 more miles though only like 10 minutes longer than the others - for a long distance trip, probably the current preferred route.

Once I-49 is complete through that large expanse in Arkansas between Fort Smith and Texarkana, it will only be about 30 miles longer than those current arterial / interstate combinations. Considering all interstate highway throughout, 75 mph for most of that distance, it will easily be faster than those other routes.
Baton Rouge trashes it all out. When you map it to Shreveport, the average is only 65 mph. (Still under 70 mph if you follow I-10 all the way to Lafayette and add around 25 miles.) The part from Mena to Fort Smith will also be markedly slower because of the mountains. If I-49 winds up shorter than US-71 and you can average 66+ MPH there might be a gain.   Best case the mileage is equal to the I-55 / US63 route and in spite of the 75 MPH north of Alexandria  probably to Mena, the speeds from NOLA to Opelousas and Mena to Fort Smith pretty much offset the all-freeway aspect and for  Trucks, the grade north of Mena will be not insignificant.  (This make a good case for following US-270 / US-59 and OK-12 from Mena to Fort Smith... It isn't going to happen and the canyon that US-270 / 59 follows MAY be too narrow. It is still a better route. Just one Oklahoma has no interest in. )

US63 is being upgraded and it is possible that I-555 may be extended additionally along that path, leaves it as a better route.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Scott5114

Quote from: abqtraveler on May 07, 2021, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 11:23:06 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 06, 2021, 02:56:14 PM
As to EB I-30 to NB -I-49 a connector to out there would be a help. Not sure how much traffic would actually go from Dallas to NWA or Joplin and vice versa.
US-75 / US-69 to I-40 or I-44 is a much more direct route than via Texarkana, even when I-49 is complete.

Agreed. Pretty much the main usefulness of I-49 north from Texarkana is as an extension of US-59/ I-369
Oklahoma would not be happy, but shunpikers would be, as I-30 and I-49 would provide a toll-free alternative to the I-44 turnpike between Oklahoma City and Joplin.

The Oklahoma turnpikes cost $9.50. You're likely to spend more in gas going via Texarkana than you'd pay in tolls (even more so if you take US-75 between Dallas and Tulsa, cutting the toll down to $4.75).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

dariusb

Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me that the section of I-49 between Ft. Smith and Texarkana will be tolled. Seems like most of the interstates/freeways are doing that these days.
It's a new day for a new beginning.

Revive 755

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 07, 2021, 02:03:01 PM
Kansas City... ehh. Google Maps offers various routes from New Orleans that contain hundreds of arterial mileage with one all freeway alternative - I-55 to I-70 - which is 60 more miles though only like 10 minutes longer than the others - for a long distance trip, probably the current preferred route.

I haven't looked at the various alternative options, but I would try very hard to avoid I-70 across Missouri.  That 10 minutes could easily grow to a half hour or more.  Then there's the unpredictable stretches of I-270 and I-55 between Festus-Crystal City and Pevely.

bwana39

Quote from: dariusb on May 07, 2021, 11:28:36 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me that the section of I-49 between Ft. Smith and Texarkana will be tolled. Seems like most of the interstates/freeways are doing that these days.

Right now, Arkansas has a constitutional amendment against tolls. So the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Most of the new freeways in Texas indeed are tolled. Arkansas is not Texas!
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Road Hog

Quote from: bwana39 on May 08, 2021, 11:40:57 AM
Quote from: dariusb on May 07, 2021, 11:28:36 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me that the section of I-49 between Ft. Smith and Texarkana will be tolled. Seems like most of the interstates/freeways are doing that these days.

Right now, Arkansas has a constitutional amendment against tolls. So the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Most of the new freeways in Texas indeed are tolled. Arkansas is not Texas!
True, but Arkansas also doesn't have blinders on. They see the money NTTA is raising, and a gas tax hike is an abomination before Saint Grover.

A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.



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