Michigan considering tolling I-94, I-96, I-75 and/or US-127

Started by ChimpOnTheWheel, July 14, 2020, 02:17:39 PM

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Flint1979

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 19, 2020, 10:04:39 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Didn't your last one like ruin the water in Flint or something?
No that was Darnell Earley he was an Emergency Manager in Flint. He was appointed by Governor Snyder but he is the one that ultimately made the decision to switch the source of water for the city of Flint. I guess you could say Snyder sort of did because he was the one that appointed the EM. Earley was also the city manager in Saginaw for awhile. I live within a mile of Saginaw's city limits.


Flint1979

Quote from: Terry Shea on July 19, 2020, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 19, 2020, 10:04:39 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Didn't your last one like ruin the water in Flint or something?
No, that was the Flint city council, but I think we're getting off subject here.
Well my attack on Whitmer is that she said all along in her campaign that she was going to fix the damn roads. And now she is giving MDOT the ok to study the possibility of making a toll road without the thought that Michigan would lose federal funding if that is done.

It's already been mentioned that most of the traffic using the roadways in Michigan are by people that already live here and I agree with that. Michigan isn't a state that sees a lot of through traffic except for Canada. I guess making I-69 a toll road would probably be the best one if they had to make any of them a toll road considering many use it as a bypass of Detroit for Chicago-Toronto traffic. It'd be easy to shunpike though by using Old M-21 in many places. Old M-78 runs right next to current I-69 too.

Ned Weasel

Quote from: aboges26 on July 15, 2020, 08:04:56 PM
Or maybe that is the route MDOT wants Canada-bound trucks to follow (I-69), possibly alleviating some truck traffic from Detroit. Although I am not sure who in their right mind would go through Detroit to begin with if they could take I-69, regardless of tolled I-94 or not.

When I drove for a living, my company said I had to use the Ambassador Bridge, because it somehow made their customs paperwork easier.  Ugh, the Ambassador Bridge!  The experience of driving on that in an 18-wheeler was always worse than the experience of having to go through the stoplights in Breezewood Windsor.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

kphoger

Quote from: stridentweasel on July 20, 2020, 07:52:29 PM
When I drove for a living, my company said I had to use the Ambassador Bridge, because it somehow made their customs paperwork easier. 

What?  Are you saying that shipping routes are determined by more than just one factor?  Get outta here!
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Flint1979

Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.

Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

ilpt4u

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 24, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.

Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
There is some question to how well the Ohio TP would do if the US 30 Corridor from Mansfield, OH to somewhere near Morris, IL were upgraded to interstate standards, and even given an Interstate designation, be it 76 or 80, how well the OH TP, IN TR, and the Tri-State would compete

While such a thing has been talked about on the Fictional board, there needs to be more serious movement in Indiana regarding upgrading US 30 to a Freeway and more serious movement in Indiana and Illinois (mostly IL) about building the Illiana Tollway, and make sure the routes connect to the existing US 30 Freeway in Ohio

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: ilpt4u on July 24, 2020, 05:35:41 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 24, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.

Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
There is some question to how well the Ohio TP would do if the US 30 Corridor from Mansfield, OH to somewhere near Morris, IL were upgraded to interstate standards, and even given an Interstate designation, be it 76 or 80, how well the OH TP, IN TR, and the Tri-State would compete

While such a thing has been talked about on the Fictional board, there needs to be more serious movement in Indiana regarding upgrading US 30 to a Freeway and more serious movement in Indiana and Illinois (mostly IL) about building the Illiana Tollway, and make sure the routes connect to the existing US 30 Freeway in Ohio
I was thinking of OH 2 & I-90 to the north and US 20 & I-76 to the south.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

triplemultiplex

#58
Well if the Fed's aren't chipping in enough to maintain that interstate for the traffic it has, why are we beholden to a system that denies interstates access to a potential revenue stream because of some arbitrary rule?  That's dumb.  That rule should be shit-canned.  I 100% support tolling existing tax-payed interstates if it means those interstates can get more lanes and modern interchanges.

By all means, toll the shit out of I-94 so Michigan can afford to six+ lane the entire thing west of Detroit.
Hell yeah, toll I-81 so Virginia can afford to six lane the whole damn thing.
Let Missouri toll I-70 so that sumbitch has at least six lanes between KC and StL.
And just so I'm not playing favorites; why not toll I-94 over here in 'Sconnie so we can get that third lane where it's needed?
Worth it!
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Flint1979

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 24, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.

Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
And that freeway to the north is what I use to shunpike the Ohio Turnpike.

sprjus4

Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 24, 2020, 10:36:11 PM
Hell yeah, toll I-81 so Virginia can afford to six lane the whole damn thing.
The latest toll plan would not have widened the entire interstate to 6 lanes, in fact only less than 100 miles. Still a major improvement, but would not address the remaining 200+ miles.

Either way, the project package that includes numerous ramp extensions, safety improvements, climbing lanes, and that less than 100 miles of widening is getting underway, though they opted to increase fuel taxes & truck fees to fund it instead of implementing tolling.

michiganguy123


KelleyCook

Regardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

hotdogPi

Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

That doesn't allow time for recounts.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
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KelleyCook

Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.

What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.

vdeane

Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

That doesn't allow time for recounts.
Somehow other countries seem to manage.  Are there even any other countries that have lame duck sessions in the first place?

One other interesting oddity (not sure if it's related or not) is that in other countries, "the government" refers to the people in charge (essentially what we would refer to as "the administration" and "the XXXth Congress"), while here, it refers to the institutions themselves.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

The Ghostbuster

I doubt these corridors will ever be toll roads. The only reason I might support turning US 127 into a toll road is if it helps expedite and fund the conversion of the St. John's-to-Ithaca's segment to full freeway standards.

hbelkins

I was under the impression that you could put interstate signage on existing toll roads (see what's going on in Oklahoma currently and the history of the Pennsylvania Turnpike) but you can't put tolls on an existing free interstate.
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

vdeane

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2024, 03:20:09 PMI was under the impression that you could put interstate signage on existing toll roads (see what's going on in Oklahoma currently and the history of the Pennsylvania Turnpike) but you can't put tolls on an existing free interstate.
There was a law where the feds were going to do a pilot program that allowed for up to three toll conversions on the interstate system.  I-80 in PA was the infamous example, never getting approved because they weren't going to keep the money on I-80.  I'm not sure if the RI truck tolls use one of those slots or if they're something else.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

silverback1065

I thought they could be tolled if you replaced a bridge and tolled that.

vdeane

Quote from: silverback1065 on December 14, 2024, 08:13:03 AMI thought they could be tolled if you replaced a bridge and tolled that.
Oh yeah, that's how the RI truck tolls work.  They'll replace a regular underpass, make it a "toll bridge" and put in a gantry.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

JREwing78

I've expressed before that Michigan residents would likely accept tolls on *NEW* roads, but not existing tax-funded ones. While that limited the potential use cases for tolling (since most of the roads that would benefit were built out as tax-funded), MDOT could make use of this in a few spots that would definitely help unload traffic elsewhere.

- Along the US-12 corridor between Sturgis and Ypsilanti. MDOT had big plans for this corridor that died when funding dried up. It would likely have the traffic levels to pay for itself, being a route that largely shuns the larger cities and the attendant traffic loads. MDOT could likely entice some kind of lease arrangement with Cintra of Spain and Macquarie of Australia (the current lessors of the Indiana Toll Road) as this would drive an increase in traffic on the Indiana Toll Road.

- M-115 between US-10 and M-37 near Mesick, then north on M-37 to Traverse City. This would *finally* establish a high-speed limited access highway link between Traverse City and all downstate locations. Bonus points for a link from US-31 in Ludington past Manistee, then NE to interchange with this tollway near Mesick.

- M-72 west of Grayling to Traverse City - this would give Traverse City a 2nd limited access highway link.

- US-31 Holland/Grand Haven bypass between I-196 and I-96 - Another long-awaited connection to bypass Grand Haven and the nightmare drawbridge over the Grand River

- M-40/89 between Holland and Plainwell - This could piggy-back onto the above-mentioned US-31 bypass and free up heavy traffic on this road connecting Holland to Kalamazoo and Battle Creek.

- US-223 corridor connecting Grand Rapids and Jackson to Toledo - This would finally establish the limited access highway link between Toledo and Jackson via the existing US-223 and US-127 corridors, then follow M-50 NW past Eaton Rapids, Charlotte, and Lake Odessa to meet I-96 just east of M-6. Alternatively, it could curve west, then NW of Charlotte to serve Vermontville, Nashville, Hastings, and Middleville to connect to M-6 at the current M-37 interchange. This would offload traffic from I-94, I-96 and US-23.

- M-53 between I-696 and I-69 - Finally make the limited-access highway along Mound Rd a reality. It could also be brought south and west to meet the existing Davison Freeway (M-8) just east of I-75. This would offload significant traffic off I-75 and benefit Stellantis' Warrant Truck plant. Narrow right-of-way south of I-696 would be a limiting factor.

- M-59 corridor between I-96 in Howell and I-94 in Chesterfield. This would give the northern suburbs better connectivity with Lansing and Grand Rapids. At worst, a Utica to Chesterfield tollway can be done quickly and be immediately viable. Punching through NW Oakland County would encounter the same challenges as with I-275.

KelleyCook

Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.

What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.

The rest of the story...

So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.

Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.

However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.

Great Lakes Roads

Quote from: KelleyCook on December 18, 2024, 06:12:53 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.

What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.

The rest of the story...

So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.

Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.

However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.

Speed cameras in construction zones? COOL!  :thumbsup:  :hyper:
-Jay Seaburg

michiganguy123

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 18, 2024, 06:44:54 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 18, 2024, 06:12:53 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.

That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.

What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.

The rest of the story...

So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.

Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.

However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.

Speed cameras in construction zones? COOL!  :thumbsup:  :hyper:

Fun fact these cameras are going to be privatized...

    (f) The state transportation department may install and use an automated speed enforcement system only by contracting with a third-party vendor.



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