State Lays Out Vision for U.S. 23 Corridor Through Central Ohio

[JREwing78]

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966, it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

[Molandfreak]

Lastly, just because US 23 doesn't enter the Toledo city limits doesn't mean it's not serving Toledo. I-70 doesn't enter the Dayton city limits, so does that mean I-70 doesn't serve Dayton at all?

No. Taking a freeway/expressway long distance is different from a parallel surface street. Close enough to the core city is good enough for freeways to "serve" the city, because there is a clear purpose of the route to maintain a consistent route standard. What US 23 currently does is go on a random tangent along an unimportant back road, stop short of an important city, then cut over to a brief wrong-way concurrency with I-75 before reassuming the important route.

Outside of moving US 23, the next-best scenario for the corridor would be to axe SR 15 east of I-75, renumber current SR 63 and run a new SR 63 "Central Ohio expressway" along the entire expressway. This is essentially what SR 32 does in relation to US 50, and I have no problem with it since each route has a clearly defined purpose, there are no highways ending abruptly in the middle of an expressway corridor, and SR 32 does not exist outside of the expressway alignment. But that's fictional.

[Molandfreak]

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966, it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

If that is what actually happened, AASHTO officials still weren't doing their jobs correctly by not proposing a viable alternative for the thru route. This is what alternate routes are for. Heck, I would even be ok with a long US 23 Business serving Fostoria.

[webny99]

Has ODOT considered that the Columbus-Waldo connection could just as easily - perhaps even more easily - be made via I-71 and US 36, either with upgrades to US 36 or an entirely new alignment between I-71 and Waldo? I would think that would remove all the true long distance traffic from US 23 (including Columbus-Toledo, except the parts of the Columbus metro north of I-270), and the existing route would function fine for the local and short distance traffic.

[Bitmapped]

Has ODOT considered that the Columbus-Waldo connection could just as easily - perhaps even more easily - be made via I-71 and US 36, either with upgrades to US 36 or an entirely new alignment between I-71 and Waldo? I would think that would remove all the true long distance traffic from US 23 (including Columbus-Toledo, except the parts of the Columbus metro north of I-270), and the existing route would function fine for the local and short distance traffic.

Yes. It's been considered on multiple occasions.

[TempoNick]

In my mailbox this week:

Join us for Route 23 Connect public meetings!

ODOT is hosting public meetings to share results of evaluation of project concepts for improvements along U.S. 23 and get your input. These concepts, which were introduced at the Fall 2023 public meetings, range from smaller changes that improve existing stop-and-go conditions, to larger changes that would create a more freeway-like condition. The concepts use combinations of improvement options that aim to balance more reliable travel times with maintaining local access points along U.S. 23. We hope to gather your feedback on:

    Which of the improvements makes sense to you and should be a priority?
    Which metrics are the most important to you?
    Is there other information you feel should be considered when selecting the concepts to move forward?

Project Background

The Route 23 Connect Study focuses on improvements along the U.S. 23 corridor between I-270 and Waldo. This study has developed concepts which are being evaluated to guide a corridor action plan that will identify specific projects that can be advanced into project development. The study concepts range in size and scope, aiming to provide safer and more efficient travel, including improved travel time reliability for through traffic.

Route 23 already has 30% more traffic than the roadway was designed to accommodate, leading to increased congestion, unpredictable travel times, bottlenecks, and higher crash rates. This study will support Columbus as a national logistics hub by strengthening connection and access to northwest Ohio, Michigan, and Canada.

Additional project information and meeting materials are located on the project website here: publicinput.com/23Connect

In-person Meetings

In order to ensure all interested members of the public are able to participate, ODOT has scheduled six in-person meetings over a two-week time period. The meetings will be hosted in an open-house format with no formal presentation. The same information will be available at all in-person meetings. Please stop by to provide input at any time during the meeting hours indicated.

In-Person Meetings 1 & 2

When: Tuesday, August 6, 2024

Time: 12:00PM - 2:00 PM & 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM

Location: Nationwide Hotel and Conference Center, North Carolina Building*,

100 Green Meadows Drive, Lewis Center, OH 43035

* Event venue at SR 750 entrance nearest to U.S. 23

In-Person Meetings 3 & 4

When: Wednesday, August 14, 2024

Time: 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM & 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM

Location: Delaware County Fairgrounds, Ag Building

236 Pennsylvania Avenue, Delaware, OH 43015

In-Person Meetings 5 & 6

When: Thursday, August 15, 2024

Time: 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM & 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM

Location: Brookshire Event Venue,

405 Greif Parkway, Delaware, Ohio 43015

Online Q&A Sessions

All materials displayed at the public meeting will also be available on the website. If you are unable to attend an in-person meeting, ODOT will host two online question & answer sessions as well. A brief presentation will be given at the beginning of each online session. Following this presentation, the project team will answer questions from the public. Online session information is as follows:

Online Session 1
When: Wednesday, August 7, 2024

Time: 12:00PM
Location: publicinput.com/23Connect | Join by phone at: (855) 925-2801, code: 4637

Online Session 2
When: Tuesday, August 13, 2024
Time: 6:00PM
Location: publicinput.com/23Connect | Join by phone at: (855) 925-2801, code: 4637

Individuals who require interpretation services or a reasonable accommodation to participate in these meetings should contact Hannah Salem at 740-833-8268 no later than July 30, 2024. Public participation is solicited without regard to race, color, sex, age, national origin, or disability.

Learn more and submit comments online!

Project information, meeting materials, and an online comment form are located on the project website: publicinput.com/23Connect

Questions and comments can be submitted on the project website and by mail, email, or phone.

Please submit your comments by Monday, September 16, 2024 to be considered during this phase of the study.
   
   
Sent on behalf of Ohio DOT by PublicInput
2409 Crabtree Blvd, Suite 107, Raleigh, NC 27604

   

[Rothman]

Eesh.  Section 106 and 4(f) will be a bear for this project (historical resources and parkland, e.g.).

[TempoNick]

I think I like the "most freeway like" proposals from I-70 through about Home Road. Just shut off all those secondary roads and feed them through service roads or through some other way.

[TempoNick]

Eesh.  Section 106 and 4(f) will be a bear for this project (historical resources and parkland, e.g.).

It's beginning to look a lot like the US 31 solution in the Indianapolis area. I don't know if it's good or bad to have an overpass where a traffic light used to be if you are a property owner. The property owners who are losing street level access, aren't going to be happy. We'll see I guess.

There is also some interesting utility work in that area, particularly with the sewer lines. I know Sheetz had to put in a pump station when they opened their new store.

[thenetwork]

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966, it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Many of the State and US routes in and around Toledo have flip-flopped alignments  over the decades (like the SR 199/US 23 flip flop) -- the biggest, and most recent was the Toledo reroutings of 1986, where pretty much all non-interstate numbered routes were either re-routed (SR 120), swapped (portions of US 24 and SR 25 traded alignments), truncated (US 223) or extended (SR 65 & SR 51).  US 20 was left unaffected as was SR 246 and SR 420.

So any changing of numbered route alignments is somewhat normal for that area.

Here's a very simple solution for the SR-15 debacle -- move US 23 to the current SR-15 alignment, then duplex 23 along I-75  to I 475...

Then extend **US 68** from it's current northern terminus in Findlay (at the I 75/SR 15 interchange), east along the relocated US 23 to Carey, then US 68 would follow the old 23 alignment north to US 20, then replace the short SR 420 segment, ending at the Ohio Turnpike/I 80/I 90.

For those of you who didn't know, at one time US 68 ran all the way up to, and ended in, Toledo. Now it returns (close) to it's original terminus town.

US-23 is now on it's most logical routing on all limited access highways from Carey to Perrysburg and Fostoria still gets a US route (68) running through it. US 68 also becomes a "bypass route" of sorts for those travelers wanting to avoid I-75 to access the eastern fringe of Toledo and points east.

[edwaleni]

I would put in a rail commuter service instead. Marion>Columbus, with stops at Waldo, Delaware, OSU, Fairgrounds and the Convention Center/Nationwide Arena.

[seicer]

There can be both. But I'm a little disappointed that right-in and right-out intersections are being considered in the ultimate build-out scenario.

[westerninterloper]

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966, it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Many of the State and US routes in and around Toledo have flip-flopped alignments  over the decades (like the SR 199/US 23 flip flop) -- the biggest, and most recent was the Toledo reroutings of 1986, where pretty much all non-interstate numbered routes were either re-routed (SR 120), swapped (portions of US 24 and SR 25 traded alignments), truncated (US 223) or extended (SR 65 & SR 51).  US 20 was left unaffected as was SR 246 and SR 420.

So any changing of numbered route alignments is somewhat normal for that area.

Here's a very simple solution for the SR-15 debacle -- move US 23 to the current SR-15 alignment, then duplex 23 along I-75  to I 475...

Then extend **US 68** from it's current northern terminus in Findlay (at the I 75/SR 15 interchange), east along the relocated US 23 to Carey, then US 68 would follow the old 23 alignment north to US 20, then replace the short SR 420 segment, ending at the Ohio Turnpike/I 80/I 90.

For those of you who didn't know, at one time US 68 ran all the way up to, and ended in, Toledo. Now it returns (close) to it's original terminus town.

US-23 is now on it's most logical routing on all limited access highways from Carey to Perrysburg and Fostoria still gets a US route (68) running through it. US 68 also becomes a "bypass route" of sorts for those travelers wanting to avoid I-75 to access the eastern fringe of Toledo and points east.

As a nearly 20-year resident of NW Ohio, I can think of not a single person who is confused with the current numbering. Everyone knows SR 15 is the way to Columbus. Regarding US 23 through Fostoria, I've heard over the years that pressure has been strong to maintain the US route through Fostoria; we should also think about parallel, emergency routes -- US 23 *does* serve as an unsigned alternate between about Carey and Toledo, particularly between Cygnet and Findlay, where the old US 25 was not expanded to four lanes as it was north of Cygnet, through Bowling Green.

[Molandfreak]

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966, it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Many of the State and US routes in and around Toledo have flip-flopped alignments  over the decades (like the SR 199/US 23 flip flop) -- the biggest, and most recent was the Toledo reroutings of 1986, where pretty much all non-interstate numbered routes were either re-routed (SR 120), swapped (portions of US 24 and SR 25 traded alignments), truncated (US 223) or extended (SR 65 & SR 51).  US 20 was left unaffected as was SR 246 and SR 420.

So any changing of numbered route alignments is somewhat normal for that area.

Here's a very simple solution for the SR-15 debacle -- move US 23 to the current SR-15 alignment, then duplex 23 along I-75  to I 475...

Then extend **US 68** from it's current northern terminus in Findlay (at the I 75/SR 15 interchange), east along the relocated US 23 to Carey, then US 68 would follow the old 23 alignment north to US 20, then replace the short SR 420 segment, ending at the Ohio Turnpike/I 80/I 90.

For those of you who didn't know, at one time US 68 ran all the way up to, and ended in, Toledo. Now it returns (close) to it's original terminus town.

US-23 is now on it's most logical routing on all limited access highways from Carey to Perrysburg and Fostoria still gets a US route (68) running through it. US 68 also becomes a "bypass route" of sorts for those travelers wanting to avoid I-75 to access the eastern fringe of Toledo and points east.

As a nearly 20-year resident of NW Ohio, I can think of not a single person who is confused with the current numbering. Everyone knows SR 15 is the way to Columbus. Regarding US 23 through Fostoria, I've heard over the years that pressure has been strong to maintain the US route through Fostoria; we should also think about parallel, emergency routes -- US 23 *does* serve as an unsigned alternate between about Carey and Toledo, particularly between Cygnet and Findlay, where the old US 25 was not expanded to four lanes as it was north of Cygnet, through Bowling Green.

A potential rerouting wouldn't be for the benefit of locals, just visitors. Whatever, if Fostoria needs a US highway, they can have US 23A, US 23 Business, or US 223. Mainline 23 should be consistent in quality.

[edwaleni]

There can be both. But I'm a little disappointed that right-in and right-out intersections are being considered in the ultimate build-out scenario.

There can, however, by leaving the traffic lights in on US-23 north, and not converting them makes the train service more desirable.

Sometime DOT's will forgo large expensive expansions of existing highways in order to build up transit demand.

Spending billions to upgrade an urban highway to get maybe on average 7-12 minutes of travel improvement seems to be a difficult trade off. So let demand shift to transit over the next 20-25 years, then if demand still warrants it, upgrade the highway in parts.

[TempoNick]

As a nearly 20-year resident of NW Ohio, I can think of not a single person who is confused with the current numbering. Everyone knows SR 15 is the way to Columbus. Regarding US 23 through Fostoria, I've heard over the years that pressure has been strong to maintain the US route through Fostoria; we should also think about parallel, emergency routes -- US 23 *does* serve as an unsigned alternate between about Carey and Toledo, particularly between Cygnet and Findlay, where the old US 25 was not expanded to four lanes as it was north of Cygnet, through Bowling Green.

Of course it's not confusing for you. It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from. It's confusing for them. That's who you're designing it for, not to mention that it's simply bad form.

Or, if they want to be stubborn about it, they could just sign everything from Carey to Columbus as Ohio 15 running concurrently with US 23. Not a great solution, but at least there will be consistent numbering.

[GaryV]

It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

[Molandfreak]

It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

Not everyone wants to rely on their GPS 100% of the time, or is able to in the case of foreign visitors.

[TempoNick]

It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

[Molandfreak]

Seriously, what even is the point of having highway numbers or AASHTO if they can go in random, unimportant tangents like this for no good reason? They are supposed to be helpful guides for motorists to navigate without having to rely on external devices or maps. We might as well just go back to using auto trails.

[GaryV]

It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

If they can't follow maps or GPS, maybe they can follow signs.
Like this one:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUKGaExiugACqhGq6
Followed by this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gcK3EsdfDj4jhyo17

If they don't know the way from Columbus to Toledo, maybe they shouldn't be trying to drive it.

When the US system was created nearly a century ago, the current routing of US-23 was the shortest and fastest way between Columbus and Toledo. Now it's still shortest, but not fastest.

[Molandfreak]

It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

If they can't follow maps or GPS, maybe they can follow signs.
Like this one:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUKGaExiugACqhGq6
Followed by this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gcK3EsdfDj4jhyo17

If they don't know the way from Columbus to Toledo, maybe they shouldn't be trying to drive it.

When the US system was created nearly a century ago, the current routing of US-23 was the shortest and fastest way between Columbus and Toledo. Now it's still shortest, but not fastest.

Nope, now SR 199 has taken over the original route of US 23. US 23 is on a random back road that has no historical relevance, not that historical relevance has any meaning to today's traffic patterns whatsoever.

Why do you have to be so pretentious about your ability to read maps? Why shouldn't these highway numbers be a helpful supplement and follow the traffic patterns of today?

[GaryV]

If someone doesn't know how to read a map, how do they know which number to follow?

And I wasn't aware of the Ohio 199 routing being the original US-23, sorry. But that route wouldn't make any more sense in today's travels either.

[vdeane]

It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

If they can't follow maps or GPS, maybe they can follow signs.
Like this one:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUKGaExiugACqhGq6
Followed by this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gcK3EsdfDj4jhyo17

If they don't know the way from Columbus to Toledo, maybe they shouldn't be trying to drive it.

When the US system was created nearly a century ago, the current routing of US-23 was the shortest and fastest way between Columbus and Toledo. Now it's still shortest, but not fastest.

This is the same state as this sign, which sends motorists on a wild goose chase through downtown Cleveland.  Much faster to continue straight to Carnegie and loop around to the ramp accessible only from the other direction of 9th.

[Molandfreak]

If humans were 100% logical like computers and not subject to grogginess or wandering thoughts, maybe the "just read the map correctly" argument would have some merit. Actually, if we were 100% logical, this would never fly in anyone's mind and 23 would already follow SR 15 and I-75.

The fact that some hand-holding still needs to be done with the "15 north to 75" signs is pretty much a tacit admission by the DOT that the way the highways are aligned makes no sense. Put yourself in the mindset of a low-income motorist from Kentucky with a limited data plan on their phone, or a foreigner who wants to rent a car and explore this part of the country without racking up exorbitant roaming charges--they just want to have a nice vacation to northern Michigan and follow the best route possible. With just two exceptions up to this point--I-270 to bypass Columbus and US 23 Truck to bypass Portsmouth, their best route has followed US 23 the entire time. At this point, would this motorist think the current arrangement makes any sense? Absolutely not. Something like this would get the point across in a much more direct way:


Or, you could substitute US 23A with US 23 Business, US 223, SR 420, or whatever else you want. Go nuts with it. The point is that this is significantly less confusing to these sets of motorists who are unfamiliar with the area. An alternate doesn't even have to be signed with this amount of fanfare; ODOT posts an alternate route for I-76/US 224 in Akron, which amusingly is picked up by Google Maps even though it is obviously not the primary highway number. They can and should do the same to provide an alternate route for I-75/US 23 in this area, if it is needed.

There is a time and a place where US Highways are useful as alternate routes, if they are consistent in quality. Nevada had the right idea to move US 395 to I-580, because that way it is consistent in quality as the thru north-south route people take. There is also a signed alternate that is useful for motorists in the event of an emergency or if they simply choose not to take the freeway--the point is that the thru route is very clearly designated and consistently numbered.