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Mackinac Bridge congestion

Started by JREwing78, July 09, 2024, 10:04:27 PM

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SectorZ

Quote from: seicer on July 11, 2024, 03:30:18 PMYou've not driven on open-road tolled facilities before? You either pay with EZ-Pass or with a pay-by-plate model. If you obscure your plates, or if you fail to pay your bill, you are a scofflaw. A deadbeat.

What part of 500 mile detour didn't resonate here?

I have, near me, I-90 (MA), Everett Turnpike (NH), and I-95 (NH) as tolled highways, and I can avoid them with US 20, US 3, and US 1 respectively. I have a choice.

The Mackinac tolls are not a choice. It's heavy handed to expect governments of a foreign nation to give their drivers info out to collect tolls. This is a bridge where the example of having tolls taken on location are likely a smarter operation.


seicer

Oh no! Tolls on a bridge! It's not as if there aren't tolls on other crossings in the United States (and world) where detours are many miles long. I'm sure you'll survive paying a few dollars or having your plate read (and billed).

JREwing78

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 10, 2024, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 10, 2024, 09:57:21 AMHow often do these backups actually happen?  If it's a recurring thing, then that's something to consider.  But if it's only happening a handful of holidays a year, then expanding the toll plaza isn't very cost-effective.

With this thought, also keep in mind southbound from the toll plaza you're trying to rapidly funnel a bunch of traffic onto a nearly 60-year old non-Interstate standard bridge.
My guesstimate (since I couldn't find statistics for this) is maybe 15 or 20 days out of the year. Obviously Memorial Day, the 4th, and Labor Day are big weekends. Judging by the numbers the Bridge Authority posts, peak months are in July and August. May-October sees 2/3 of the yearly traffic on the Bridge.

Bridge capacity is not an issue. On peak days AADT is about 20,000 vpd (vehicles per day), which is fairly light traffic levels for a 4-lane freeway. Your issue would instead be with northbound coming off the bridge, which has only a short distance for cars to funnel into the correct lane to take their toll.

E-ZPass does you no good if the backups are long enough to back up onto the causeway with non E-ZPass holders. They could try posting signage for non E-ZPass to keep right, but at some point folks who don't get the memo will clog up the roadway anyway. Ultimately, it's not going to be an E-ZPass solution alone - it would have to be combined with AET to really solve the congestion problem.

It would also require higher tolls on at least the pay-by-mail travelers, to the wailing and gnashing of teeth of those who paid hundreds of dollars in fuel to lug their motorhomes and travel trailers north. "Oh noes! We have to pay $20 now to cross the bridge, EACH WAY!"

Flint1979

Quote from: SectorZ on July 11, 2024, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 10, 2024, 10:09:32 AMPay-by-plate/EZ-Pass is the best solution for these types of situations. Michigan should already have agreements with surrounding states and provinces to collect tolls from scofflaws.

How is someone a scofflaw when the only way to avoid the tolled bridge involves a 500 mile detour? They supposed to ford the Mackinac Strait or something?

Really don't think calling people deadbeats when this is literally the only transportation choice they have makes a ton of sense.
Only 500 miles? It's about 900 miles to drive around the lake.

SectorZ

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2024, 01:13:32 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 11, 2024, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 10, 2024, 10:09:32 AMPay-by-plate/EZ-Pass is the best solution for these types of situations. Michigan should already have agreements with surrounding states and provinces to collect tolls from scofflaws.

How is someone a scofflaw when the only way to avoid the tolled bridge involves a 500 mile detour? They supposed to ford the Mackinac Strait or something?

Really don't think calling people deadbeats when this is literally the only transportation choice they have makes a ton of sense.
Only 500 miles? It's about 900 miles to drive around the lake.

Fair enough, I was just trying to post a number I didn't think was hyperbole without checking. Just drives my point home that much more.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: SectorZ on July 12, 2024, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2024, 01:13:32 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 11, 2024, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 10, 2024, 10:09:32 AMPay-by-plate/EZ-Pass is the best solution for these types of situations. Michigan should already have agreements with surrounding states and provinces to collect tolls from scofflaws.

How is someone a scofflaw when the only way to avoid the tolled bridge involves a 500 mile detour? They supposed to ford the Mackinac Strait or something?

Really don't think calling people deadbeats when this is literally the only transportation choice they have makes a ton of sense.
Only 500 miles? It's about 900 miles to drive around the lake.

Fair enough, I was just trying to post a number I didn't think was hyperbole without checking. Just drives my point home that much more.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and thought you were taking the SS Badger across the lake.

hobsini2

I know this sounds crazy but what if there was a twin span built? You then can have both bridges be 3 thru lanes and with a right shoulder. Would spending $828 million (what it cost the original span in 2023 equal money) be worth it? Have the old span be Southbound and the new span be Northbound. You then could have the current plaza just for southbound and build the new plaza on the new bridge north of Huron St in Mackinaw City.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

froggie

#32
Not the exact same scenario, but there are two other similar entities with long, rural crossings with few (or lengthy) alternatives that I would put in the same "peer group" as the Mackinac Bridge:  the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel (CBBT) and the Confederation Bridge.

Both facilities have an ETC option (EZPass for the CBBT and "StraitPASS" for the Confederation Bridge) while also having cash lanes.  The Confederation Bridge has a single toll plaza and only charges in one direction (leaving PEI), while the CBBT has toll plazas on each side, charging users before they begin the crossing.

So two theoretical possibilities that could be options for the Mackinac.  First option would be to charge double the toll but to only charge it southbound since the toll plaza is on the Upper Peninsula.  The existing toll plaza could probably be reconfigured to provide two free-flowing northbound lanes while providing both an ETC lane and additional cash lanes southbound.

The second option, which IMO would be the better option operationally but also more problematic to implement, would be to build a second toll plaza on the Mackinaw City side for northbound traffic.  The problem here is that you have the town completely surrounding the southern approach to the bridge (plus the proximity of Exits 338 and 339) so adequate space is tight.  One possibility would be to buy out the Marathon station and Mystery Town USA and use that space for the plaza, but that would require a lot of earth given the elevation difference.  This would also require removing the northbound ramps at Exit 339.

(EDIT) In response to hobsini's post right before mine, building a second span would be wasted money.  As noted upthread, even on the busiest holidays, capacity on the bridge itself is not the issue.  I also don't think building a toll plaza on the bridge itself would be the right way to go...it would be even more expensive than the ROW buyout and earth moving I suggested.

Flint1979

Quote from: SectorZ on July 12, 2024, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2024, 01:13:32 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 11, 2024, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 10, 2024, 10:09:32 AMPay-by-plate/EZ-Pass is the best solution for these types of situations. Michigan should already have agreements with surrounding states and provinces to collect tolls from scofflaws.

How is someone a scofflaw when the only way to avoid the tolled bridge involves a 500 mile detour? They supposed to ford the Mackinac Strait or something?

Really don't think calling people deadbeats when this is literally the only transportation choice they have makes a ton of sense.
Only 500 miles? It's about 900 miles to drive around the lake.

Fair enough, I was just trying to post a number I didn't think was hyperbole without checking. Just drives my point home that much more.
I did the Lake Michigan Circle Tour one time so I knew how long it was.

Flint1979

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 12, 2024, 09:23:11 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 12, 2024, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2024, 01:13:32 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 11, 2024, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 10, 2024, 10:09:32 AMPay-by-plate/EZ-Pass is the best solution for these types of situations. Michigan should already have agreements with surrounding states and provinces to collect tolls from scofflaws.

How is someone a scofflaw when the only way to avoid the tolled bridge involves a 500 mile detour? They supposed to ford the Mackinac Strait or something?

Really don't think calling people deadbeats when this is literally the only transportation choice they have makes a ton of sense.
Only 500 miles? It's about 900 miles to drive around the lake.

Fair enough, I was just trying to post a number I didn't think was hyperbole without checking. Just drives my point home that much more.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and thought you were taking the SS Badger across the lake.
Yeah that would shorten it by about 350 miles or so. I looked on Google and it would take about two more hours to drive around the lake vs. taking the SS Badger.

JREwing78

Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2024, 10:01:59 AMFirst option would be to charge double the toll but to only charge it southbound since the toll plaza is on the Upper Peninsula.  The existing toll plaza could probably be reconfigured to provide two free-flowing northbound lanes while providing both an ETC lane and additional cash lanes southbound.
This might ultimately be the answer. They would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case. Folks from the U.P. would effectively pre-pay their return trip, and the "Trolls" - the ones who live "under the bridge", pay up leaving the U.P.  The tolls are far cheaper than other ways to get over or around the lake, so being a toll scofflaw doesn't get you anywhere.

Not having backups to get into the U.P. would be a boon to encouraging more U.P. tourism, and devoting all tollbooths to SBD traffic would dramatically improve throughput. More throughput = more toll revenue. 

Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2024, 10:01:59 AMThe second option, which IMO would be the better option operationally but also more problematic to implement, would be to build a second toll plaza on the Mackinaw City side for northbound traffic.  The problem here is that you have the town completely surrounding the southern approach to the bridge (plus the proximity of Exits 338 and 339) so adequate space is tight. 

As light as traffic is on the bridge for the vast majority of the year, the expense of running a 2nd set of toll booths and the eminent domain needed to construct the booths would be wasted, let alone constructing a twin span. You also have the grounds of the historical Fort Michilimackinac that would be impacted.

If I was on the Bridge board, I would take my chances with collecting tolls for southbound only, or going AET, long before I'd consider new tollbooths in Mackinac City. 

webny99

#36
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.

7/8

Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.

Funny enough, the two times I've crossed the Mackinac were both northbound only. Once in 2013 for a trip to Northern Ontario (returned home heading south from Sudbury) and once in 2017 (flew back home from Winnipeg to Hamilton).

7/8

Question for those against EZPass on the bridge: What makes the MacPass better? Wouldn't you rather have a transponder that works on other tolls too?

(I would be thrilled if the 407 adopted EZPass, but it'll never happen).

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: 7/8 on July 12, 2024, 03:16:16 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.

Funny enough, the two times I've crossed the Mackinac were both northbound only. Once in 2013 for a trip to Northern Ontario (returned home heading south from Sudbury) and once in 2017 (flew back home from Winnipeg to Hamilton).

I've crossed twice. First time was northbound in 1999. Second time was southbound in 2023.
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Jim

My only crossing in 2003 was northbound.  For some reason, my long trips to the Midwest and beyond, including that 2003 trip that went as far out as Yellowstone, have been much more often gone westbound on a more northerly route and back eastbound on a more southerly route.

I don't understand why going to all electronic tolling isn't the obvious fix here.  There will be some people grumbling that they don't use the bridge often enough to justify a transponder.  Well, in that case, the higher toll for a toll-by-plate approach for those without transponders isn't going to hit you very often.
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TheHighwayMan3561

I've only ever crossed northbound (2005, 2013, 2021). I was in St. Ignace last year on a day trip from Marquette, but did not cross probably because I didn't feel like paying the toll twice.
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Molandfreak

Quote from: 7/8 on July 12, 2024, 03:18:13 PMQuestion for those against EZPass on the bridge: What makes the MacPass better? Wouldn't you rather have a transponder that works on other tolls too?

(I would be thrilled if the 407 adopted EZPass, but it'll never happen).
Yeah, the 407 is the worst in this regard. They even charge monthly user fees for their transponders. The Mackinac Bridge Authority isn't that greedy with MacPasses, they just charge $87 to set up an account--$80 of which is a direct deposit towards tolls--but that just isn't worth it for occasional vacationers from the LP. Introduce EZPass compatibility, and suddenly that $87 becomes a lot more enticing. They could offer a discounted rate for those who purchased a pass through the MBA rather than other agencies in order to keep the small revenue stream they have from this.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

Molandfreak

Would it be feasible to close the Jamet Street exits, build an exit to Central Avenue or Cadillac Street instead, then utilize the additional ROW from the former Jamet Street exit to install northbound toll lanes there?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

vdeane

Quote from: 7/8 on July 12, 2024, 03:18:13 PMQuestion for those against EZPass on the bridge: What makes the MacPass better? Wouldn't you rather have a transponder that works on other tolls too?

(I would be thrilled if the 407 adopted EZPass, but it'll never happen).
That is an interesting question.  It seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 08:33:08 PMIntroduce EZPass compatibility, and suddenly that $87 becomes a lot more enticing.
Or not.  $87 is a LOT more than what any state charges to set up E-ZPass.  I believe Virginia is the highest for regular drivers at $35.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

froggie

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 09:06:50 PMWould it be feasible to close the Jamet Street exits, build an exit to Central Avenue or Cadillac Street instead, then utilize the additional ROW from the former Jamet Street exit to install northbound toll lanes there?

I thought about that, but I don't think that's doable.  Using the existing toll plaza as a guide, you would need a space approximately 200ft x 600ft for the plaza itself and the approach lanes.  That does not include the headquarters building, state police station, or employee parking...those would all be extra.  You would also need tapers on either side.

There's 200ft of width right at Jamet, but thanks to the compactness of that interchange plus the mainline being at a slight angle to the local street grid, you don't have that width on either side of Jamet.  Something else would have to be taken...which due to the proximity of Nicolet St and a park on the east side would most likely be the I-75 Plaza but also possibly the Hampton Inn Express.

Molandfreak

Quote from: vdeane on July 12, 2024, 10:16:23 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 12, 2024, 03:18:13 PMQuestion for those against EZPass on the bridge: What makes the MacPass better? Wouldn't you rather have a transponder that works on other tolls too?

(I would be thrilled if the 407 adopted EZPass, but it'll never happen).
That is an interesting question.  It seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

GaryV

Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2024, 10:01:59 AMFirst option would be to charge double the toll but to only charge it southbound since the toll plaza is on the Upper Peninsula.  The existing toll plaza could probably be reconfigured to provide two free-flowing northbound lanes while providing both an ETC lane and additional cash lanes southbound.
This might ultimately be the answer. They would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case. Folks from the U.P. would effectively pre-pay their return trip, and the "Trolls" - the ones who live "under the bridge", pay up leaving the U.P.  The tolls are far cheaper than other ways to get over or around the lake, so being a toll scofflaw doesn't get you anywhere.

Not having backups to get into the U.P. would be a boon to encouraging more U.P. tourism, and devoting all tollbooths to SBD traffic would dramatically improve throughput. More throughput = more toll revenue.

Did you miss the part of the OP's videos showing US-2 backed up for miles in the "southbound" direction?

webny99

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 11:04:04 PM
QuoteIt seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.

I don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

Rothman

Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 11:04:04 PM
QuoteIt seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.

I don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

No.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.



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