News:

The AARoads Wiki is live! Come check it out!

Main Menu

Mackinac Bridge congestion

Started by JREwing78, July 09, 2024, 10:04:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Molandfreak

Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 11:04:04 PM
QuoteIt seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.

I don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.
So it's about refusing to accept/implement some of the conveniences of the modern world just to prove a point? Why doesn't the entire state just convert to a Mennonite community?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.


froggie

Quote from: GaryV on July 12, 2024, 11:09:41 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2024, 10:01:59 AMFirst option would be to charge double the toll but to only charge it southbound since the toll plaza is on the Upper Peninsula.  The existing toll plaza could probably be reconfigured to provide two free-flowing northbound lanes while providing both an ETC lane and additional cash lanes southbound.
This might ultimately be the answer. They would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case. Folks from the U.P. would effectively pre-pay their return trip, and the "Trolls" - the ones who live "under the bridge", pay up leaving the U.P.  The tolls are far cheaper than other ways to get over or around the lake, so being a toll scofflaw doesn't get you anywhere.

Not having backups to get into the U.P. would be a boon to encouraging more U.P. tourism, and devoting all tollbooths to SBD traffic would dramatically improve throughput. More throughput = more toll revenue.

Did you miss the part of the OP's videos showing US-2 backed up for miles in the "southbound" direction?


Did you miss the part where I mentioned making the existing toll southbound only would enable them to reconfigure the toll plaza to have more southbound lanes?

SEWIGuy

Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 11:04:04 PM
QuoteIt seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.

I don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

Every state in the midwest that utilizes tolling is EZ Pass compatible - except Michigan.

Flint1979

Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.
I've used the Mackinac Bridge Northbound only before but I was driving so far west in the U.P. and then down to Madison, Wisconsin so it made sense to go back to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan via Chicago. I had to drive from Houghton to Ontonagon to Ironwood then Madison, WI.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2024, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.
I've used the Mackinac Bridge Northbound only before but I was driving so far west in the U.P. and then down to Madison, Wisconsin so it made sense to go back to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan via Chicago. I had to drive from Houghton to Ontonagon to Ironwood then Madison, WI.


Going all the way west to Ironwood seems out of the way.

Rothman

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2024, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.
I've used the Mackinac Bridge Northbound only before but I was driving so far west in the U.P. and then down to Madison, Wisconsin so it made sense to go back to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan via Chicago. I had to drive from Houghton to Ontonagon to Ironwood then Madison, WI.


Going all the way west to Ironwood seems out of the way.

Psst.  This is the AARoads forum...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2024, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2024, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.
I've used the Mackinac Bridge Northbound only before but I was driving so far west in the U.P. and then down to Madison, Wisconsin so it made sense to go back to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan via Chicago. I had to drive from Houghton to Ontonagon to Ironwood then Madison, WI.


Going all the way west to Ironwood seems out of the way.

Psst.  This is the AARoads forum...

He said he "had" to drive that way.

Rothman

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2024, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2024, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.
I've used the Mackinac Bridge Northbound only before but I was driving so far west in the U.P. and then down to Madison, Wisconsin so it made sense to go back to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan via Chicago. I had to drive from Houghton to Ontonagon to Ironwood then Madison, WI.


Going all the way west to Ironwood seems out of the way.

Psst.  This is the AARoads forum...

He said he "had" to drive that way.

Psst.  This is the AARoads forum...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

webny99

#58
Quote from: Rothman on July 12, 2024, 11:44:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PMI don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

No.

What a great value add to the conversation. Thank you for your insight.

KelleyCook

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 13, 2024, 01:48:13 AMSo it's about refusing to accept/implement some of the conveniences of the modern world just to prove a point? Why doesn't the entire state just convert to a Mennonite community?

Tolling is one of the conveniences of the modern world?

Seems a strange hill to die on; but to each, his own.

Molandfreak

Quote from: KelleyCook on July 13, 2024, 02:50:56 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 13, 2024, 01:48:13 AMSo it's about refusing to accept/implement some of the conveniences of the modern world just to prove a point? Why doesn't the entire state just convert to a Mennonite community?

Tolling is one of the conveniences of the modern world?

Seems a strange hill to die on; but to each, his own.
Tell me you didn't understand the point without telling me you didn't understand the point. If they could make the Mac free to cross, that would obviously be the best option. However, since that will never happen, implementing a toll-by-plate system and beginning to accept E-ZPass would be the next best option. Because that improves the lives of people by not forcing them to stop at a toll booth during peak traffic. It's completely insane to say that stopping at a toll booth adds to your quality of life, which is the implication being made here.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

JREwing78

Quote from: GaryV on July 12, 2024, 11:09:41 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2024, 10:01:59 AMFirst option would be to charge double the toll but to only charge it southbound since the toll plaza is on the Upper Peninsula.  The existing toll plaza could probably be reconfigured to provide two free-flowing northbound lanes while providing both an ETC lane and additional cash lanes southbound.
This might ultimately be the answer. They would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case. Folks from the U.P. would effectively pre-pay their return trip, and the "Trolls" - the ones who live "under the bridge", pay up leaving the U.P.  The tolls are far cheaper than other ways to get over or around the lake, so being a toll scofflaw doesn't get you anywhere.

Not having backups to get into the U.P. would be a boon to encouraging more U.P. tourism, and devoting all tollbooths to SBD traffic would dramatically improve throughput. More throughput = more toll revenue.

Did you miss the part of the OP's videos showing US-2 backed up for miles in the "southbound" direction?
I opened this topic! That video is why we're having this discussion!

My concern isn't specifically that there's a backup for southbound traffic - it's that there's backups at all for a bridge that is wide enough to handle all the traffic thrown at it. Having backups of several miles in each direction points to an inability to keep the traffic flowing.

Those epic backups definitely go both ways; NBD has been known to back up beyond Mackinac City and sometimes beyond the US-31 interchange on really bad days. They're only occasional backups, but they're at the times of year that the U.P. needs to be able to cash in on the tourist traffic. If folks end up avoiding the area because of hours-long waits to cross the bridge, that's bad for everyone.

My goal was to kick around ideas to boost the throughput of the toll taking operation itself, to minimize backups on the busy days. Ultimately, it's to get those tourist dollars to the U.P. and to improve the lives of those who make their home in the U.P. This would also bring more money into the Bridge Authority coffers so that the existing Mackinac Bridge remains in good condition, the tolls themselves can stay at reasonable levels, and that the Authority is able to fund a 2nd or replacement span if and when that becomes necessary.

Again, since this is only an issue maybe 30 days out of the year, major infrastructure changes aren't necessarily needed or feasible. But on those days, they need to figure out how to keep that traffic moving!

vdeane

Quote from: Rothman on July 12, 2024, 11:44:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 11:04:04 PM
QuoteIt seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.

I don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

No.
I think it's fair.  Remember all the comments the last time this came up that could be summed up as "we have a slower-paced lifestyle here" and "why are you in such a hurry?"?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Rothman

Quote from: vdeane on July 13, 2024, 04:34:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 12, 2024, 11:44:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 12, 2024, 11:04:04 PM
QuoteIt seems like it's in large part a desire to preserve a slower pace of life where you stop, wait in line, and then pay in cash (aside from the locals for whom MacPass actually makes sense) and to distance themselves, at least psychologically, from "toll road country" (note that there have also been many who are passionate about MI using "fare" instead of "toll" on signs).  This may be a broader regional trend, because E-ZPass usage is lower than in the Northeast, even along the toll road corridors.  Even in NY, E-ZPass utilization was lower around Buffalo than anywhere else in the state, despite the fact that the Thruway is needed there just to get to some of the suburbs on a freeway.  And Ohio was very late to adopting E-ZPass or even any transponder at all, even though, unlike Michigan, they "have a toll road".  Indiana doesn't even have ORT lanes.  Illinois seems to be the main exception.  So it definitely seems like there's something cultural going on.
That's silly. I feel no more connected to Illinois and points east by virtue of being in a state utilizing E-ZPass than I did before that switch was made. It's simply much more convenient for me not to have a separate account since I also visit Illinois often.

I don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

No.
I think it's fair.  Remember all the comments the last time this came up that could be summed up as "we have a slower-paced lifestyle here" and "why are you in such a hurry?"?

Sure, but luddism should never be justified.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Flint1979

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2024, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on July 12, 2024, 02:39:51 PMThey would lose out on funds from anyone going northbound only, but that's not a particularly common use case.

I would think that's pretty rare, and even when it does occur, it should be close to a wash with those using the bridge southbound only.

Ironically, I've used the Mackinac bridge southbound only twice - both times returning from the Upper Midwest on trips when we had gone through Chicagoland on the outbound trip. So we would have essentially paid double if a southbound only toll was in place, but that barely even registers in the overall trip cost on a trip of that length.
I've used the Mackinac Bridge Northbound only before but I was driving so far west in the U.P. and then down to Madison, Wisconsin so it made sense to go back to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan via Chicago. I had to drive from Houghton to Ontonagon to Ironwood then Madison, WI.


Going all the way west to Ironwood seems out of the way.
It is out of the way if you're just driving along the lakeshore but I had to pick things up and drop them off along the way so I had to hit those towns but I wouldn't have gone to Ironwood if I didn't have to. It's the only time I have been to Ironwood now that I think of it too.

KelleyCook

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 13, 2024, 02:57:26 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on July 13, 2024, 02:50:56 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 13, 2024, 01:48:13 AMSo it's about refusing to accept/implement some of the conveniences of the modern world just to prove a point? Why doesn't the entire state just convert to a Mennonite community?

Tolling is one of the conveniences of the modern world?

Seems a strange hill to die on; but to each, his own.
Tell me you didn't understand the point without telling me you didn't understand the point. If they could make the Mac free to cross, that would obviously be the best option. However, since that will never happen, implementing a toll-by-plate system and beginning to accept E-ZPass would be the next best option. Because that improves the lives of people by not forcing them to stop at a toll booth during peak traffic. It's completely insane to say that stopping at a toll booth adds to your quality of life, which is the implication being made here.
Oh ... trust me; I hadn't missed your actual point -- even though, ironically, you did:

Every driver should always be carrying a "handy" preloaded, nationally-approved tracking device ... for the good of society.

Thank you for fully demonstrating it to everyone else for me.

Signed,
A New Mennonite

Molandfreak

#66
Quote from: KelleyCook on July 14, 2024, 01:37:17 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 13, 2024, 02:57:26 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on July 13, 2024, 02:50:56 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 13, 2024, 01:48:13 AMSo it's about refusing to accept/implement some of the conveniences of the modern world just to prove a point? Why doesn't the entire state just convert to a Mennonite community?

Tolling is one of the conveniences of the modern world?

Seems a strange hill to die on; but to each, his own.
Tell me you didn't understand the point without telling me you didn't understand the point. If they could make the Mac free to cross, that would obviously be the best option. However, since that will never happen, implementing a toll-by-plate system and beginning to accept E-ZPass would be the next best option. Because that improves the lives of people by not forcing them to stop at a toll booth during peak traffic. It's completely insane to say that stopping at a toll booth adds to your quality of life, which is the implication being made here.
Oh ... trust me; I hadn't missed your actual point -- even though, ironically, you did:

Every driver should always be carrying a "handy" preloaded, nationally-approved tracking device ... for the good of society.

Thank you for fully demonstrating it to everyone else for me.

Signed,
A New Mennonite

The least you could have done is admit this was about Alex Jones-level conspiracy hogwash from the start. Not this bait and switch technique of pretending not to understand the actual argument being made and focusing on a joke instead. Very manipulative behavior. At least the folks who don't like E-ZPass for cultural reasons have worldviews that are actually grounded in reality instead of paranoia.

Are the MacPasses also "nationally-approved tracking devices?"
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

GaryV

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 07:52:06 AMEvery state in the midwest that utilizes tolling is EZ Pass compatible - except Michigan

Michigan only has the Mac and the international bridges and tunnel. They are more specific than general travel.

The great majority of Michigan residents don't have a Mac Pass. They don't see the need for it because they don't go across it very often (nor across to Canada). Since the residents don't see the need for a pass, why should it be made compatible for out-of-state residents? Do they need it?

IIRC, the Mac Pass was a replacement for pre-purchased toll tokens when they went out of use. There was no intent to make it especially useful for the general traveler, only for the frequent bridge crosser.


Molandfreak

Quote from: GaryV on July 14, 2024, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 07:52:06 AMEvery state in the midwest that utilizes tolling is EZ Pass compatible - except Michigan

Michigan only has the Mac and the international bridges and tunnel. They are more specific than general travel.

The great majority of Michigan residents don't have a Mac Pass. They don't see the need for it because they don't go across it very often (nor across to Canada). Since the residents don't see the need for a pass, why should it be made compatible for out-of-state residents? Do they need it?

IIRC, the Mac Pass was a replacement for pre-purchased toll tokens when they went out of use. There was no intent to make it especially useful for the general traveler, only for the frequent bridge crosser.


Kentucky only has toll bridges as well. They are still E-ZPass compatible because separating these systems makes no sense. Who specifically benefits from this nonsense other than conspiracy nutjobs who think that E-ZPass is a tracking device? How much money did the Mackinac Bridge Authority save by implementing a system that is incompatible with anything else?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: GaryV on July 14, 2024, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 07:52:06 AMEvery state in the midwest that utilizes tolling is EZ Pass compatible - except Michigan

Michigan only has the Mac and the international bridges and tunnel. They are more specific than general travel.

The great majority of Michigan residents don't have a Mac Pass. They don't see the need for it because they don't go across it very often (nor across to Canada). Since the residents don't see the need for a pass, why should it be made compatible for out-of-state residents? Do they need it?

IIRC, the Mac Pass was a replacement for pre-purchased toll tokens when they went out of use. There was no intent to make it especially useful for the general traveler, only for the frequent bridge crosser.


My response was to webtv99 when he said "since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast" when it comes to EZPass adaptability. But they really aren't. This is the only case where there isn't a system in place in the Midwest.

Rothman

Quote from: GaryV on July 14, 2024, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 07:52:06 AMEvery state in the midwest that utilizes tolling is EZ Pass compatible - except Michigan

Michigan only has the Mac and the international bridges and tunnel. They are more specific than general travel.

The great majority of Michigan residents don't have a Mac Pass. They don't see the need for it because they don't go across it very often (nor across to Canada). Since the residents don't see the need for a pass, why should it be made compatible for out-of-state residents? Do they need it?

IIRC, the Mac Pass was a replacement for pre-purchased toll tokens when they went out of use. There was no intent to make it especially useful for the general traveler, only for the frequent bridge crosser.



So, no problem with congestion, then.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

GaryV

Quote from: Rothman on July 14, 2024, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 14, 2024, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 13, 2024, 07:52:06 AMEvery state in the midwest that utilizes tolling is EZ Pass compatible - except Michigan

Michigan only has the Mac and the international bridges and tunnel. They are more specific than general travel.

The great majority of Michigan residents don't have a Mac Pass. They don't see the need for it because they don't go across it very often (nor across to Canada). Since the residents don't see the need for a pass, why should it be made compatible for out-of-state residents? Do they need it?

IIRC, the Mac Pass was a replacement for pre-purchased toll tokens when they went out of use. There was no intent to make it especially useful for the general traveler, only for the frequent bridge crosser.



So, no problem with congestion, then.

Yes, there is a problem with congestion on some days of the year. But no, EZPass wouldn't likely have much of an impact on that congestion. I doubt very many of the people crossing the bridge and paying cash have EZPass, no more so than they have Mac Pass. I could be wrong, but since Michigan has so few tolls and most of the bridge crossings are by residents, there wouldn't be an appreciable increase of non-cash tolls by making it EZPass compatible. And consequently, not much of an effect on congestion.


CtrlAltDel

Quote from: webny99 on July 13, 2024, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 12, 2024, 11:44:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 12, 2024, 11:22:58 PMI don't think it's that EZPass necessarily connects you to those places on a cultural level, it's that there's just a regional difference in willingness to implement a system that's interoperable with other states, and that may be, at least in part, due to residents of those states being less tolerant of using those systems. And since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast in this regard, it's also fair to intuit a connection between the more slow-paced and down-to-earth lifestyle and resistance to/complacency about technological advancements.

No.

What a great value add to the conversation. Thank you for your insight.

He likes making pronouncements.
I-290   I-294   I-55   (I-74)   (I-72)   I-40   I-30   US-59   US-190   TX-30   TX-6

vdeane

#73
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 14, 2024, 01:33:26 PMMy response was to webtv99 when he said "since it's clear that the Midwest is still well behind the Northeast" when it comes to EZPass adaptability. But they really aren't. This is the only case where there isn't a system in place in the Midwest.
Except they are.  The Northeast is largely all-electronic by now.  In the Midwest, it's just Illinois and a handful of newer facilities.  Ohio only just recently provided ORT lanes on the mainline Turnpike.  Indiana still doesn't.  And, as I mentioned earlier, utilization is lower.  I think I remember someone posting here that E-ZPass utilization around Buffalo was only 40% a decade ago.  And the rationale given was the same tracking stuff that @KelleyCook posted.

Quote from: KelleyCook on July 14, 2024, 01:37:17 AMOh ... trust me; I hadn't missed your actual point -- even though, ironically, you did:

Every driver should always be carrying a "handy" preloaded, nationally-approved tracking device ... for the good of society.

Thank you for fully demonstrating it to everyone else for me.

Signed,
A New Mennonite
And how would providing the OPTION to use E-ZPass be a problem (assuming the cash lanes remain)?  Unless you're afraid that the percent of people who use the bridge who have E-ZPass is higher than people have been implying, and that they might then decide to go all-electronic.

Quote from: GaryV on July 14, 2024, 01:14:50 PMThe great majority of Michigan residents don't have a Mac Pass. They don't see the need for it because they don't go across it very often (nor across to Canada). Since the residents don't see the need for a pass, why should it be made compatible for out-of-state residents? Do they need it?

IIRC, the Mac Pass was a replacement for pre-purchased toll tokens when they went out of use. There was no intent to make it especially useful for the general traveler, only for the frequent bridge crosser.
So states should say "fuck the people from elsewhere"?  It's that type of mindset that makes me wish the federal government was much more involved in regulating toll roads and whatnot than they are.

Also, don't forget Bay City, which does take E-ZPass (although you have to dig a bit to find that out).  And the Mac and many (all?) of the international crossings have transponders.  Clearly there is an interest in electronic tolling.  Just not electronic tolling that is friendly to non-locals.  I really don't see what the downside to interoperability is, other than "why should we do anything that makes life more convenient for strangers?".

Quite frankly, E-ZPass is quite convenient even without open-road tolling.  Fumbling around for cash sucks.  Taking credit cards helps, but not as much as one would think, because if I'm the only person in the car, that means I still have to handle getting out my wallet, pulling out my card, putting it back, and putting my wallet away, all while I'm stopped there at the booth.  I have no passenger to help me.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

GaryV

I'm not saying it would be a bad idea to have EZPass. I'm saying that it's not likely that it would contribute much to relieving congestion on those heavy travel days.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.