I-475/US23 projects in Toledo

[Terry Shea]

Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?

Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?

Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing

If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?

Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.

Because there is no point to do it.

No point to seamless connectivity, consistency and making things less confusing to travelers?

Obviously not, because it doesn't benefit him because he's local and knows the road.

Okay, if you're not local and not a roadgeek, have little to no knowledge about highways and where they go, and live anywhere between Toledo and south Florida, how are you going to get to Flint?  You're either going to have to look at maps or atlases, or use GPS, which should send you up US-23.  I don't imagine that Flint is used as a control city on I-75 anywhere from Toledo south, so why would anyone get the crazy idea to take I-75 from Toledo to Flint?

[Terry Shea]

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.

This is still all fictional. Let it go.

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.

This is still all fictional. Let it go.

I've reported this thread to the moderators more than once over the last several days as being mostly off topic and belonging in fictional highways.  I got verbally reprimanded for reporting it more than once.  Apparently, they aren't going to do anything about it.  It's a shame that a legitimate post gets sidetracked with all this off topic blather and nonsense.  It's a bigger shame that the moderators refuse to do anything about such obvious infractions.  It should be obvious that if people want to discuss changing the number on US-23 to I-475 or any other number, that they should do so in a separate thread in the appropriate, Fictional Highways, forum...especially when the forum rules specifically state so!

[Flint1979]

How does keeping it US-23 make it more confusing to travelers? This doesn't make any sense. It's been US-23 since 1926 so for 96 years it has been US-23. Furthermore US-23 has been a freeway for over 60 years it's not like they just made it into a freeway 20 years ago or something. What is the problem with keeping the number US-23? People seem to think just because it's a freeway that it should be an Interstate. MDOT and ODOT have no desire to make it into an Interstate when it's already US-23.

[Terry Shea]

How does keeping it US-23 make it more confusing to travelers? This doesn't make any sense. It's been US-23 since 1926 so for 96 years it has been US-23. Furthermore US-23 has been a freeway for over 60 years it's not like they just made it into a freeway 20 years ago or something. What is the problem with keeping the number US-23? People seem to think just because it's a freeway that it should be an Interstate. MDOT and ODOT have no desire to make it into an Interstate when it's already US-23.

but even if people do think that, why would anyone think that this thread is the proper place to do so?

[Flint1979]

How does keeping it US-23 make it more confusing to travelers? This doesn't make any sense. It's been US-23 since 1926 so for 96 years it has been US-23. Furthermore US-23 has been a freeway for over 60 years it's not like they just made it into a freeway 20 years ago or something. What is the problem with keeping the number US-23? People seem to think just because it's a freeway that it should be an Interstate. MDOT and ODOT have no desire to make it into an Interstate when it's already US-23.

but even if people do think that, why would anyone think that this thread is the proper place to do so?

I'm not sure on that. This thread was something about widening I-475 in Ohio I have no idea how or why it got to be about US-23 in Michigan.

[Rothman]

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.

This is still all fictional. Let it go.

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.

This is still all fictional. Let it go.

I've reported this thread to the moderators more than once over the last several days as being mostly off topic and belonging in fictional highways.  I got verbally reprimanded for reporting it more than once.  Apparently, they aren't going to do anything about it.  It's a shame that a legitimate post gets sidetracked with all this off topic blather and nonsense.  It's a bigger shame that the moderators refuse to do anything about such obvious infractions.  It should be obvious that if people want to discuss changing the number on US-23 to I-475 or any other number, that they should do so in a separate thread in the appropriate, Fictional Highways, forum...especially when the forum rules specifically state so!

Verbally?  They called you up?

[TempoNick]

You "stick to the topic" people must not know how conversations work in real life. You sit at the table, you have a beer with somebody. You talk. One subject leads to a related subject. The related subject may relate to another related subject. You have a few more beers. You laugh, you argue a little. You go home.

If you stick to just one topic when you're having a beer with somebody, that makes for a pretty boring conversation. And that's all this is. Just another form of having a conversation.

[TempoNick]

P.S. The road is already there so it is not a fantasy topic. It could easily be given a single unified identity. Since so many of you pretend to have an engineering mindset, engineers like to distill and simplify, not complicate. Having three numbers for a road that could easily have one or two numbers is called complicating things.

[skluth]

P.S. The road is already there so it is not a fantasy topic. It could easily be given a single unified identity. Since so many of you pretend to have an engineering mindset, engineers like to distill and simplify, not complicate. Having three numbers for a road that could easily have one or two numbers is called complicating things.

It's a fantasy topic as there is no call to change the number or to change to interstate status. When you find an actual public official make a call for such action, it will no longer be fantasy. I've created a thread for all those highways some here insist need to be interstates. Feel free to discuss your US 23 highway and other Michigan interstate fantasies there.

[Terry Shea]

You "stick to the topic" people must not know how conversations work in real life. You sit at the table, you have a beer with somebody. You talk. One subject leads to a related subject. The related subject may relate to another related subject. You have a few more beers. You laugh, you argue a little. You go home.

If you stick to just one topic when you're having a beer with somebody, that makes for a pretty boring conversation. And that's all this is. Just another form of having a conversation.

There are many different forums here with thousands of topics available.  You're free to comment on any of them or start a new topic in the appropriate forum.  Now what part of this do you not understand?

Copied from Fictional Highways forum:
Title: Posting about fictional highways
Post by: Scott5114 on October 15, 2009, 09:08:31 AM
"One common roadgeek pastime is to fantasize about what one would do were one to be in control of the highway system. However, it is necessary to keep fact extracted from fiction. in a discussion about real highway systems, one cannot avoid considering the political, fiscal, and environmental forces that shape them. In any such discussion, completely made-up designations and highways not seriously considered by the pertinent road agency are likely to distract.

This section of the forum, then, is intended to contain these musings upon what would be nice if anything were possible. It is provided as an oasis from the reality of the world that prevents the highways we really want from coming to fruition. We are aware here that many of the ideas posted here are financially untenable, or would be otherwise doomed to die by the hands of NIMBYs and environmentalists. But this section of the forum is just for fun, would-be-neat-to-have projects. Sure, if you can point out a way to improve an idea by avoiding a crowded neighborhood or environmental feature do that, but outright dismissing an idea here as "costing too much" or something like that just spoils the fun for others. Obviously, if all of these things were possible, many of them would be actually done.

On the other hand, many of us are interested in debate regarding those very forces which are not considered in this section. There are many other facets to I-99 than its number, for instance; maybe a thread could start off focused on the acid rock deposits and how they were dealt with or the future expansion of the highway towards New York. Threads like these don't need to be derailed by your bright idea for renumbering it. And please, nothing in the main forums about extending I-40 to Bakersfield unless you're talking about solid plans put out by Caltrans. Those sorts of things should be kept here and only here. Please help keep threads in the other boards on-topic by removing fictional highway ideas to this board. Thank you for your consideration of those who may not wish to have their examination of the system that exists interfered with by ideas which are obviously impossible."

It couldn't be any clearer!  All you're doing is derailing the thread and going about it in a bullying manner!

[Terry Shea]

P.S. The road is already there so it is not a fantasy topic. It could easily be given a single unified identity. Since so many of you pretend to have an engineering mindset, engineers like to distill and simplify, not complicate. Having three numbers for a road that could easily have one or two numbers is called complicating things.

US-23 is a single, unified identity!  You just contradicted yourself.  Moreover, engineers don't establish route numbers, nor do I see anyone who isn't an engineer attempting to be an engineer. And once again, what part of this do you not understand?

Copied from Fictional Highways forum:
Title: Posting about fictional highways
Post by: Scott5114 on October 15, 2009, 09:08:31 AM
"One common roadgeek pastime is to fantasize about what one would do were one to be in control of the highway system. However, it is necessary to keep fact extracted from fiction. in a discussion about real highway systems, one cannot avoid considering the political, fiscal, and environmental forces that shape them. In any such discussion, completely made-up designations and highways not seriously considered by the pertinent road agency are likely to distract.

This section of the forum, then, is intended to contain these musings upon what would be nice if anything were possible. It is provided as an oasis from the reality of the world that prevents the highways we really want from coming to fruition. We are aware here that many of the ideas posted here are financially untenable, or would be otherwise doomed to die by the hands of NIMBYs and environmentalists. But this section of the forum is just for fun, would-be-neat-to-have projects. Sure, if you can point out a way to improve an idea by avoiding a crowded neighborhood or environmental feature do that, but outright dismissing an idea here as "costing too much" or something like that just spoils the fun for others. Obviously, if all of these things were possible, many of them would be actually done.

On the other hand, many of us are interested in debate regarding those very forces which are not considered in this section. There are many other facets to I-99 than its number, for instance; maybe a thread could start off focused on the acid rock deposits and how they were dealt with or the future expansion of the highway towards New York. Threads like these don't need to be derailed by your bright idea for renumbering it. And please, nothing in the main forums about extending I-40 to Bakersfield unless you're talking about solid plans put out by Caltrans. Those sorts of things should be kept here and only here. Please help keep threads in the other boards on-topic by removing fictional highway ideas to this board. Thank you for your consideration of those who may not wish to have their examination of the system that exists interfered with by ideas which are obviously impossible."

[Rothman]

This thread is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

[74/171FAN]

This thread is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

I guess Toledo and Ann Arbor are claiming to not be Hollaback Girls either.   

[The Ghostbuster]

This thread went from talking about a new interchange at US 20 Alternate and took an off-ramp to crazy land. That to me is Illinoing (Ave.).

[Flint1979]

This thread went from talking about a new interchange at US 20 Alternate and took an off-ramp to crazy land. That to me is Illinoing (Ave.).

The first 5 posts were fine, then the 6th post starts talking about the US-23 freeway in Michigan for some unknown reason. People really need to can it with this US-23 needs to be an Interstate stuff. I can't for the life of me figure out why people who probably rarely if ever use US-23 between Flint and Toledo care about what route number the freeway has. I use US-23 between Flint and Toledo frequently and would think it'd be stupid to make it into an Interstate because it serves no purpose.

[sprjus4]

This thread went from talking about a new interchange at US 20 Alternate and took an off-ramp to crazy land. That to me is Illinoing (Ave.).

The first 5 posts were fine, then the 6th post starts talking about the US-23 freeway in Michigan for some unknown reason. People really need to can it with this US-23 needs to be an Interstate stuff. I can't for the life of me figure out why people who probably rarely if ever use US-23 between Flint and Toledo care about what route number the freeway has. I use US-23 between Flint and Toledo frequently and would think it'd be stupid to make it into an Interstate because it serves no purpose.

Off-topic.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe they want every roadway to be an Interstate, even their own driveways.

[tolbs17]

Maybe they want every roadway to be an Interstate, even their own driveways.

I hope this is sarcasm.

[SkyPesos]

Maybe they want every roadway to be an Interstate, even their own driveways.

That's more FritzOwl specifically.

[SEWIGuy]

Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?

Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?

Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing

If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?

Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.

Why does every moderately sized city need to be connected with a numbered route?  Why does there need to be a highway with a common number from Columbus to Flint via Toledo?  Is there a lot of Toledo to Flint traffic that is currently confused by the US-23 designation or is taking I-75 through Detroit?

Most people when they are taking a trip between cities like Toledo and Flint, and its not a regular route for them, will look it up on their phone or GPS.  Do you think the general public would see I-475 an automatically assume that its a bypass of Detroit that goes all the way to Flint?

It seems to me that a lot of roadgeeks have no idea how "normal" people navigate.

[sprjus4]

^ Again, off topic.

A new thread was created in fictional highways regarding the proposal, and discussion was dropped here. If it's off topic to discuss hypotheticals in here, then it's also off topic to "attack"  or argue them.

[Flint1979]

Here's people talking about it 19 years ago and the same said then can be said today.

https://groups.google.com/g/misc.transport.road/c/fG5c3OR4RT8/m/gqz2YxMCz8cJ?pli=1

[SEWIGuy]

^ Again, off topic.

A new thread was created in fictional highways regarding the proposal, and discussion was dropped here. If it's off topic to discuss hypotheticals in here, then it's also off topic to "attack"  or argue them.

Are you a moderator?  Because apparently they don't agree with you.

And unless it's a moderator saying it's off topic then I will follow up discussions here.

Thanks.

[sprjus4]

^ Again, off topic.

A new thread was created in fictional highways regarding the proposal, and discussion was dropped here. If it's off topic to discuss hypotheticals in here, then it's also off topic to "attack"  or argue them.

Are you a moderator?  Because apparently they don't agree with you.

And unless it's a moderator saying it's off topic then I will follow up discussions here.

Thanks.

Then discussion in any regard of an interstate designation along US-23 should be allowed to continue on this thread without any objections.

[Flint1979]

There is nothing fictional about the US-23 freeway in Michigan.