News:

The AARoads Wiki is live! Come check it out!

Main Menu

Advisory Bike Lanes?

Started by Ned Weasel, April 06, 2022, 09:58:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ned Weasel

https://twitter.com/nbcsandiego/status/1510293768146194432

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/youre-playing-chicken-mira-mesa-neighbors-caught-off-guard-by-new-street-striping/2910379/

Has anyone here heard of this kind of setup, and does anyone have any thoughts on it?  It seems to be getting a lot of hate.  But the concept isn't really that foreign if you've ever used a yield street.  This is basically a yield street with bike lanes, so, when two cars are about to meet head-on, one of them has to pull into the bike lane instead of the parking lane.  The biggest problem I can foresee, however, is a driver failing to check his or her mirrors when suddenly veering into the bike lane, which could be catastrophic for a bicyclist.  I don't know how often this occurs in the real world, though.  Another possible problem is that this has a wider travel space than a traditional yield street, which generally entices drivers to go faster, which is definitely not good when they are about to meet head-on or interact with bicyclists.

As for this example in San Diego, I think there could have been at least two possible alternatives for integrating bicycle infrastructure: (1) Remove parking from one side of the street and use normal car lanes and normal bike lanes.  (2) Make the street one-way for cars, possibly leaving enough space for a buffered two-way cycle track.  Alternative 1 would probably piss some people off, and Alternative 2 would probably piss off more people than Alternative 1.  But I think both options would be more familiar to road users.

EDIT:  Oh yeah, if you watch the video in the Tweet, that definitely is not a good advertisement for those bike lanes attracting bicyclists, because you can count with no hands the number of bicyclists in that video.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.


Scott5114

What happens in the (unlikely, but possible) event that there are bikes in both lanes, such that two cars in the car lanes cannot move right to avoid one another?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Ned Weasel

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2022, 10:07:40 PM
What happens in the (unlikely, but possible) event that there are bikes in both lanes, such that two cars in the car lanes cannot move right to avoid one another?

The cars gotta stop and wait for a chance to pull into the bike lane.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

Bruce

That's just about the worst design you could come up with for both parties. Door zone for cyclists, head-on conflicts for drivers.

SectorZ

More bike infrastructure designed by people that haven't been on a bicycle since junior high school.

hotdogPi

Two of the comments to the tweet say that the design exists and works in the Netherlands. Since I agree that this is a bad idea, there must be some fundamental differences between this one and the working ones there, but I don't know what they are.

Two of the comments also said that there should be no April Fools' jokes on April 2. (The tweet was posted on April 2, not today.)
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

webny99

^ One fundamental difference is that biking as a means of transport is way more common in the Netherlands. It makes more sense if there's a lot more bike traffic than car traffic.

However, I don't see how this is better than just striping the road normally with "bikes in lane" or similar signage.

kphoger

Just stripe it like any old street, and then put up some R4-11 signs.

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JoePCool14

I was recently in the car with my father in Michigan. We had gone to the wrong address for a township office that took us in the middle of Ann Arbor's university housing for some reason. He was the one driving. As we tried to get out of the neighborhood, we ended up on this street here. He was extremely confused as to what was supposed to be happening here, and that sign on the right didn't exactly make things much clearer. He is a civil engineer by the way, not your average driver.

It's great to see new things being tried, but something like this just isn't it. I propose just adding the permissive bike symbol (I'm not sure what the official name for it is) and yellow share the road signs to emphasize that this is a bike-friendly street are less confusing and just as effective.

This also sounds like a valid idea:
Quote from: kphoger on April 07, 2022, 09:48:39 AM
Just stripe it like any old street, and then put up some R4-11 signs.



:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

7/8

Quote from: JoePCool14 on April 07, 2022, 09:49:52 AM
I was recently in the car with my father in Michigan. We had gone to the wrong address for a township office that took us in the middle of Ann Arbor's university housing for some reason. He was the one driving. As we tried to get out of the neighborhood, we ended up on this street here. He was extremely confused as to what was supposed to be happening here, and that sign on the right didn't exactly make things much clearer. He is a civil engineer by the way, not your average driver.

This one looks a bit better than the one in the OP (in my opinion) for a few reasons
a) On-street parking is only on side of the street, which makes the road narrower.
b) The actual centre driving lane also looks narrower, which psychologically should encourage slower driving speeds.
c) The large trees close to the roads obscures sight lines to driveways, and again makes the road feel narrower and should slow drivers down.

Honestly, if done right, I think the concept has good potential to encourage slow driver speeds and a safe environment for cycling. Really the key is to have a narrow asphalt road (ideally no on-street parking) and a narrow centre lane for the cars. If cars speeds can be lowered to 30 km/h or less, I think the concept can work. Obviously it's not a design for arterials, but it looks good for low-traffic residential streets.

kphoger

Yeah, less is more in these situations.  If I saw all those different kinds of pavement markings and that confusing sign, my reaction would be this:
Ignore everything, drive down the middle of the street, and move out of the way whenever a conflict arises.  So, basically, the same as it would be with no pavement markings and no signs.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Big John


CardInLex

I feel like this set up has less to do with accommodating bicycles and more to do with controlling speed of vehicles by making the road "narrower."  

Ned Weasel

Quote from: CardInLex on April 07, 2022, 10:44:28 AM
I feel like this set up has less to do with accommodating bicycles and more to do with controlling speed of vehicles by making the road "narrower."  

There are far better ways to do that, but they require more than just paint.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

Amtrakprod

Those lanes can work on streets with low ATDs, but I'm not a big fan. We stick to separated bike lanes with flex posts instead, and those lanes are really popular for everyone.


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: kphoger on April 07, 2022, 09:48:39 AM
Just stripe it like any old street, and then put up some R4-11 signs.


And add in some green shared lane markings. Those are good too.


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

jay8g

Honestly, as a bicyclist, I'd rather have a typical yield street with parking on both sides, like most of Seattle's non-arterials. That has a much stronger effect on vehicle speeds and volumes (at least if parking utilization is high) than I imagine painted bike "lanes" could, and avoids the weird interaction of drivers passing bikes but also having to merge into their space (I suppose the fact that cars can't pass bikes could be considered a problem, but neighborhood streets like these are supposed to have low speeds and volumes).

NoGoodNamesAvailable

In my opinion, "visually narrowing" the roadway with paint is basically useless, especially on roads primarily for passenger cars. Parked cars, medians, curb extensions, those narrow the roadway. Painted lines don't.

7/8

City of San Diego says controversial bike lanes will be repainted after CBS 8 digs into the issue.

It's a bad mistake that they changed this configuration without notifying the residents first, so I certainly respect their frustrations. Still, I hope they follow through with some other locations (with proper notification of course) just so we can see how they function over a longer period of time where people get over the initial shock of a new street design.

fwydriver405

Quote from: kphoger on April 07, 2022, 09:48:39 AM
Just stripe it like any old street, and then put up some R4-11 signs.



The Washington St off-ramp off of MA Route 28 in Somerville MA used to confuse me initially both as a cyclist and driver - I've noticed on this street drivers will not use both lanes until they get to the signal:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3814241,-71.0902546,3a,15.3y,173.42h,84.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBl8Wn3Par2QXsJ2yET_8-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Jet380

Spot the difference...





The Mira Mesa one is like someone designed it based on someone standing on a Dutch bike boulevard and describing it to them over a very scratchy phone line.

kphoger

2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

hotdogPi

Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

SectorZ

Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
2 differences:

A.  Pavement coloring.

B.  There's actually enough room for two cars to begin with.

C. Bikes are actually using the street in one of the two photos.

All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

kphoger

Quote from: SectorZ on April 12, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
All those enlightened Europeans, not one wearing a helmet...

If they're so smart, then why did someone apparently buy a Seat?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.