https://fox13now.com/2019/06/19/utah-will-charge-some-vehicles-for-every-mile-driven-on-the-roads/ (https://fox13now.com/2019/06/19/utah-will-charge-some-vehicles-for-every-mile-driven-on-the-roads/)
This Pay Per Mile funding is going to take into effect in 2020.
Unless this is in lieu of a vehicle registration fee, this is a no go for me.
Every vehicle should be paying by miles x weight.
I don't like the targeting of EVs and hybrids (esp. since hybrids only pay slightly less gas tax), but hopefully these pilot programs will pave the way for a change in how roads are funded nationwide.
Yep: Get rid of gas taxes altogether and replace it with VMT.
Quote from: yand on June 21, 2019, 07:32:00 PM
Every vehicle should be paying by miles x weight.
I don't like the targeting of EVs and hybrids (esp. since hybrids only pay slightly less gas tax), but hopefully these pilot programs will pave the way for a change in how roads are funded nationwide.
Vehicles that aren't electric/hybrid/hydrogen already do - it's called the gas tax. If you drive more miles and/or your car weighs more, you use more gas and pay more tax. Simple, easy (especially since it's collected at the terminal level), and since it isn't "in your face", it doesn't do double duty as a social engineering scheme to discourage driving.
The failure of the gas tax to cover funding is largely because of the unwillingness of elected officials to adjust it for inflation, increases in construction costs, and increases in fuel mileages. Why should I have to pay for their failure in the form of an additional large bill? And really, there's no good way to do a mileage tax. Either you're tracking where vehicles go or charging people for mileage driven out of state.
I largely agree with vdeane.
Quote from: vdeane on June 21, 2019, 09:03:32 PM
Quote from: yand on June 21, 2019, 07:32:00 PM
Every vehicle should be paying by miles x weight.
I don't like the targeting of EVs and hybrids (esp. since hybrids only pay slightly less gas tax), but hopefully these pilot programs will pave the way for a change in how roads are funded nationwide.
Vehicles that aren't electric/hybrid/hydrogen already do - it's called the gas tax. If you drive more miles and/or your car weighs more, you use more gas and pay more tax. Simple, easy (especially since it's collected at the terminal level), and since it isn't "in your face", it doesn't do double duty as a social engineering scheme to discourage driving.
The failure of the gas tax to cover funding is largely because of the unwillingness of elected officials to adjust it for inflation, increases in construction costs, and increases in fuel mileages. Why should I have to pay for their failure in the form of an additional large bill? And really, there's no good way to do a mileage tax. Either you're tracking where vehicles go or charging people for mileage driven out of state.
Most hybrids are just gas cars that use ~25% less gas, they already pay gas tax. the battery system is no different than any other system designed to increase fuel economy, eg. fuel injection (as opposed to carburetor). A flat rate fee for all hybrids and EVs inevitably overcharges and/or undercharges someone.
What if I drive a gas car that is just really aerodynamic or has a fancy new engine?
What if I drive a light, old car that gets 12mpg?
Road wear increases exponentially with weight. Linear gas tax just does not work if your only intent is for everyone to pay their fair share of road maintenance.
Gas tax does make sense when you add the following goal of reducing fuel consumption, which is important for energy security and environment. But then it would make no sense to penalize people for driving the most efficient vehicles on the market.
Tracking where people go is a pretty good way to do mileage tax. People can complain about their privacy but the world will move on.
I've been warming to the idea of putting roads and other transportation infrastructure on the general fund BIG TIME in recent years. Logical rationale? The higher one's personal level of taxable economic activity, the more utility that he or she derives, both directly and indirectly, from the transportation system.
I would eliminate the fuel excise tax in the process, treat retail fuel like any other consumer products that are sold at retail, and adjust other general tax rates to make up for that.
It is completely neutral WRT technologies and would end the charades and endless political games that are being played all over due to the inability of the fuel tax to respond to inflation.
Mike
From the perspective of someone who purposely doesn't live in an urban core that by default makes me one of the types that would be affected by a mileage tax negatively. More importantly (to me) is that I drive even more than I do for commuting for the purposes of recreation. I'd really have to look at how the mileage tax works in Utah to determine a fully fleshed opinion but it sounds on the surface like it would be a negative from a financial standpoint for someone like me.
That said, if mileage was in place of registration we're talking a different ball game. I would save a ton of money on one of my cars if I was taxed on mileage usage versus the current registration fee. Granted I'm talking California registrations which aren't exactly on the cheap side.
I've read that the gas tax is obsolete due to more fuel-efficient cars, and gas tax money diversions to other purposes (such as things that have nothing to do with roads or transportation). Perhaps a mile-based fee will be a sufficient replacement for the gas tax, although I suppose the jury is still out on that.
Quote from: yand on June 21, 2019, 11:25:37 PM
Most hybrids are just gas cars that use ~25% less gas, they already pay gas tax. the battery system is no different than any other system designed to increase fuel economy, eg. fuel injection (as opposed to carburetor). A flat rate fee for all hybrids and EVs inevitably overcharges and/or undercharges someone.
What if I drive a gas car that is just really aerodynamic or has a fancy new engine?
What if I drive a light, old car that gets 12mpg?
Road wear increases exponentially with weight. Linear gas tax just does not work if your only intent is for everyone to pay their fair share of road maintenance.
Gas tax does make sense when you add the following goal of reducing fuel consumption, which is important for energy security and environment. But then it would make no sense to penalize people for driving the most efficient vehicles on the market.
Tracking where people go is a pretty good way to do mileage tax. People can complain about their privacy but the world will move on.
If I have to pay a smidge more to factor in hybrids, fine. It probably wouldn't even come out of more than a dollar or two per tank (and it's not like I refuel more than once every three weeks absent a road trip). Meanwhile, if I got a bill at 5 cents per mile for the year, I'd be looking at a payment the size of a rent check. Given that, other than insurance, I don't really pay a whole lot to have my car (it's all paid off and I don't intend to replace it for a decade (if ever - I don't really like the way the car industry is going), and registration in NY is $50 once every two years), I have no interest in having to have such a bill presented to me.
Tracking is absolutely not fine. We've already compromised privacy too much, no need to further our dystopia. Do you really want to live in 1984? I guarantee you, if this actually happened, it wouldn't be long before the data was shared with law enforcement for "national security" reasons. Then they'd start using algorithms to find suspicious travel patterns, and next thing you know, roadgeeks will get pulled over, arrested, and forced to prove our innocence because our driving patterns aren't "normal" (I'm the type of person who regularly takes clinching trips with loops and deadheads and all kinds of crazy stuff with no destination of any kind). So force me to put some device in my car to report where and how much I drive to big brother? NO THANKS. Besides, such a device could (and probably, eventually, would) do other things like give you a ticket every time you speed (a big problem given that just about every freeway and many arterials around here are posted too low). And don't think it can't happen - the EU is already mandating that cars have GPS-based speed limiters in the future.
I don't want to live in 1984, which is why I'm a proponent of 21st century solutions.
It's not illegal to clinch roads so I'm not sure what crime the government can be suspicious about.
If a government really wanted to mess with people, it would make laws then rarely enforce them, so that people get used to breaking the law, then the government has a legal reason to ruin the day of anyone they don't like. Now THAT's 1984
Quote from: yand on June 23, 2019, 01:41:52 AM
If a government really wanted to mess with people, it would make laws then rarely enforce them, so that people get used to breaking the law, then the government has a legal reason to ruin the day of anyone they don't like. Now THAT's 1984
You mean speeding?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 22, 2019, 03:34:35 PM
I've read that the gas tax is obsolete due to more fuel-efficient cars, and gas tax money diversions to other purposes (such as things that have nothing to do with roads or transportation). Perhaps a mile-based fee will be a sufficient replacement for the gas tax, although I suppose the jury is still out on that.
If gas tax money is diverted to other purposes, what makes you think a mileage-based fee is immune from the same fate?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2019, 10:01:54 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 22, 2019, 03:34:35 PM
I've read that the gas tax is obsolete due to more fuel-efficient cars, and gas tax money diversions to other purposes (such as things that have nothing to do with roads or transportation). Perhaps a mile-based fee will be a sufficient replacement for the gas tax, although I suppose the jury is still out on that.
If gas tax money is diverted to other purposes, what makes you think a mileage-based fee is immune from the same fate?
Yep: Stop pilfering transportation taxes for other purposes.
Quote from: yand on June 23, 2019, 01:41:52 AM
It's not illegal to clinch roads so I'm not sure what crime the government can be suspicious about.
But outside of the roadgeek community, nobody does. Such wouldn't likely be seen as a "normal" activity by the general populace, elected officials, the police, etc. - or even though of as the first possible explanation for an odd itinerary. They might think you're running drugs, or plotting out some other crime/terrorism. You can gauge how people might react today - try crossing the border into Canada and tell the border guards you're clinching roads. See what kind of reaction you get.
Quote
If a government really wanted to mess with people, it would make laws then rarely enforce them, so that people get used to breaking the law, then the government has a legal reason to ruin the day of anyone they don't like. Now THAT's 1984
It's amazing how many laws are only enforced sometimes. I'd estimate the first three on this list are things most people wouldn't even think of as illegal. Most people break the law in their lives, and many never even know it.
https://www.businessinsider.com/most-commonly-broken-laws-in-america-2013-10
Into Canada? Just a month ago or so, the Canadian customs official didn't care much what my answers were on the way into Canada. This was at Alexandria Bay.
It was on the way back that the U.S. guy asked to search my empty trunk.
We'll see how things go later this summer at Calais and Houlton, hopefully.
Quote from: vdeane on June 23, 2019, 09:42:18 PM
You can gauge how people might react today - try crossing the border into Canada and tell the border guards you're clinching roads. See what kind of reaction you get.
I've done that once, wasn't a big deal.
Quote from: vdeane on June 23, 2019, 09:42:18 PM
Quote
If a government really wanted to mess with people, it would make laws then rarely enforce them, so that people get used to breaking the law, then the government has a legal reason to ruin the day of anyone they don't like. Now THAT's 1984
It's amazing how many laws are only enforced sometimes. I'd estimate the first three on this list are things most people wouldn't even think of as illegal. Most people break the law in their lives, and many never even know it.
https://www.businessinsider.com/most-commonly-broken-laws-in-america-2013-10
It's socially acceptable to obey most of those laws except for traffic laws.
Traffic laws are much easier to enforce than most of the other laws on the list. Even without traffic cameras, enforcement can be increased just by changing the guidelines for how police do enforcement.
Also worth noting that we can't trust the government to keep data safe. First the hack of security clearance data (and those get VERY detailed, so you'd think they'd be especially well protected), now border patrol:
https://knowtechie.com/border-patrol-hack-update/
Odometers don't tell location. The privacy argument is specious.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 24, 2019, 11:00:34 PM
Odometers don't tell location. The privacy argument is specious.
GPS-based systems do, down to a 3-4 meter radius of accuracy.
Mike
Exactly. We have no reason to assume that an odometer-based system will be used, especially given that they don't solve the out of state driving problem and can be tampered with.
From the article:
Quote
The state is already contracting with a third-party to handle GPS tracking to avoid privacy concerns.
Quote from: yand on June 26, 2019, 05:24:44 AM
From the article:
Quote
The state is already contracting with a third-party to handle GPS tracking to avoid privacy concerns.
Is there a better way to
escalate privacy concerns?
This is really simple math. If you assume a fully electric car, you simply take the miles driven, which can be determined by a simple look at the odometer once a year, either as a part of the "inspection sticker" process if the state has one, or simply dropping by the police station or DMV or whatever, then you take the MPG of a gasoline car of similar size and power and determine how much gas tax that car's owner paid, and bill the electric's owner for the same.
Of course, there is the issue of driving out of state, but that is always an issue. So what? I drive across North Carolina at least 10 times per year, but never buy gas there, as Virginia and South Carolina are cheaper. It all works out in the end.
Quote from: yand on June 26, 2019, 05:24:44 AM
From the article:
Quote
The state is already contracting with a third-party to handle GPS tracking to avoid privacy concerns.
Facebook has an excellent track record to handle this :D
The vehicle miles tax is also a recurring theme in Dutch politics over the past 25 years. The problem in the Netherlands is not a lack of funding for roads since the taxes on motoring are far higher than what is spent on infrastructure.
The proposal is highly controversial, especially because most proposed systems include a congestion charge, which is seen by many as a punishment for going to work. People don't sit in traffic if they have reasonable alternatives. Going to work at 5 a.m. or using public transport which on average takes twice as long is not seen as a reasonable alternative. The potential for cycling and public transport are pretty much maxed out - leaving 75% of travel by car.
GPS / distance-based tolling is already commonplace in Europe for semi trucks, however no country has implemented it yet for cars. Congestion charges so far use license plate recognition on single locations (so you pay per trip or passage, not by distance traveled).
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2019, 07:48:38 AM
Quote from: yand on June 26, 2019, 05:24:44 AM
From the article:
Quote
The state is already contracting with a third-party to handle GPS tracking to avoid privacy concerns.
Is there a better way to escalate privacy concerns?
I doubt there is.
Quote from: SP Cook on June 26, 2019, 10:14:06 AM
Of course, there is the issue of driving out of state, but that is always an issue. So what? I drive across North Carolina at least 10 times per year, but never buy gas there, as Virginia and South Carolina are cheaper. It all works out in the end.
And what about an ex-pat who lives in Mexico on a visa, spends 11 months out of the year driving in Mexico, but keeps his vehicle registered in the USA because he is either unable (legally) or unwilling to nationalize it in Mexico? Nearly all of the miles he drives would be outside the USA, yet he would then pay a tax to the USA based on total miles driven throughout the year.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 26, 2019, 10:14:06 AM
Of course, there is the issue of driving out of state, but that is always an issue. So what? I drive across North Carolina at least 10 times per year, but never buy gas there, as Virginia and South Carolina are cheaper. It all works out in the end.
And what about an ex-pat who lives in Mexico on a visa, spends 11 months out of the year driving in Mexico, but keeps his vehicle registered in the USA because he is either unable (legally) or unwilling to nationalize it in Mexico? Nearly all of the miles he drives would be outside the USA, yet he would then pay a tax to the USA based on total miles driven throughout the year.
They would still have to file 1040, so not really the biggest thing
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2019, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 26, 2019, 10:14:06 AM
Of course, there is the issue of driving out of state, but that is always an issue. So what? I drive across North Carolina at least 10 times per year, but never buy gas there, as Virginia and South Carolina are cheaper. It all works out in the end.
And what about an ex-pat who lives in Mexico on a visa, spends 11 months out of the year driving in Mexico, but keeps his vehicle registered in the USA because he is either unable (legally) or unwilling to nationalize it in Mexico? Nearly all of the miles he drives would be outside the USA, yet he would then pay a tax to the USA based on total miles driven throughout the year.
They would still have to file 1040, so not really the biggest thing
How does filing a 1040 make paying mileage tax on your vehicle any smaller of a thing? (FYI, non-resident aliens are not required to report foreign-sourced income on their taxes.)
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
And what about an ex-pat who lives in Mexico on a visa, spends 11 months out of the year driving in Mexico, but keeps his vehicle registered in the USA because he is either unable (legally) or unwilling to nationalize it in Mexico? Nearly all of the miles he drives would be outside the USA, yet he would then pay a tax to the USA based on total miles driven throughout the year.
What about him? That is less than 0.1%. Spillage. In any tax issue there are always going to be "what abouts" that you can come up with. What about the guy who lives in northern Kentucky who buys all his food in grocery tax free Ohio? What about the guy in Cincinnati who buys all his liquor in lower tax northern Kentucky? What about the Christiana Mall? What about the guy in Pensacola who buys all his gas in Alabama? What about...
Spillage.
Quote from: SP Cook on June 28, 2019, 10:11:28 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
And what about an ex-pat who lives in Mexico on a visa, spends 11 months out of the year driving in Mexico, but keeps his vehicle registered in the USA because he is either unable (legally) or unwilling to nationalize it in Mexico? Nearly all of the miles he drives would be outside the USA, yet he would then pay a tax to the USA based on total miles driven throughout the year.
What about him? That is less than 0.1%. Spillage. In any tax issue there are always going to be "what abouts" that you can come up with. What about the guy who lives in northern Kentucky who buys all his food in grocery tax free Ohio? What about the guy in Cincinnati who buys all his liquor in lower tax northern Kentucky? What about the Christiana Mall? What about the guy in Pensacola who buys all his gas in Alabama? What about...
Spillage.
They're all coming out ahead of the game. The ex-pat I described would paying a tax he shouldn't reasonably have to pay.