Stopping for school buses

[Duke87]

There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.

See but that's the thing. WA may have restrictive rules about school bus stop placement, and force the school bus to turn around to get kids on the other side of the street. But this is WA being special. NY will not do this - they will have the bus stop on one side of that street for kids who live on both sides of it. They would advise that anyone who needs to cross to the other side do so at the corner rather than midblock, but d'ya think all the kids follow that advice?

As for disabled kids, I don't know what WA does, but around here regular school buses are not handicapped-accessible. There are dedicated accessible buses for disabled kids and those will always stop directly in front of the house of each passenger (so there wouldn't be a need to cross the median). But the law does not treat these accessible school buses differently from the regular ones, especially since they can and sometimes are used to transport non-handicapped students who would be perfectly capable of crossing such a barrier.

[jakeroot]

There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.

See but that's the thing. WA may have restrictive rules about school bus stop placement, and force the school bus to turn around to get kids on the other side of the street. But this is WA being special. NY will not do this - they will have the bus stop on one side of that street for kids who live on both sides of it. They would advise that anyone who needs to cross to the other side do so at the corner rather than midblock, but d'ya think all the kids follow that advice?

It's not about turning around. Routes are designed from the on-set to eliminate crossing more than one lane. Arterials often have two separate routes, and right turns are very common. Route design is apparently a hell of a lot more clever than what is seen in NY, especially if there's an expectation that students need to mount a freakin' median. Buses should at least stop at the corner. Though, if that's the case, you've been relying on a straw-man argument.

The WAC (which determined the two-lane max rule for children crossing) does permit buses to load children from both sides of 3+ lane or divided roadways, but only when a separate traffic control device (signal, marked crosswalk, flagger) is present, permitting the children to cross to that side without the aid of a school bus. In the case of your example, rather than forcing children to mount the median, they'd either stop at Route 1 (near the signal), or near the Jefferson/Adams intersection, where traffic would be required to stop without the median.

(As far as handicapped accessible buses, I realize this is a moot point since even those in crutches could simply walk around the median via the corner, if for some reason the bus did actually stop mid-block).



My problem with NY really isn't that stopping would be required on a small two-lane divided road. It's that stopping would be required on roads that are basically expressways. I understand stopping one direction of major roads, in case some kid runs the wrong way, but both directions is overkill, in light of the view that oncoming traffic would have.

[1995hoo]

That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?

The bus driver stops and calls for a tow + replacement. The kids will be late, but it's unsafe/inadvisable/illegal(?) to operate a bus without operable lights.

Source: my grandfather is a school bus driver.

See, but even then, the kids have to get off the "problem"  bus somewhere. They're not likely to back them up to each other and tell the kids to use the emergency doors to jump from one bus to another.

I really don't think Virginia is unusual in requiring you to stop. I've seen more than one state with signs saying "Stop for school bus loading or unloading children–State Law."  They don't put "when lights are flashing"  after "children."  The other vehicles' drivers have the responsibility to stay alert. I really don't think it's a big deal.

[jeffandnicole]

That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?

If it's just the yellow/red flashing lights, the bus could continue straight to the school and unload the kids there.  A 2nd bus can be sent to get the other kids.  If it's another issue that needs more immediate attention, and the bus can't make it to the school or a parking lot, a 2nd bus can pull up behind the first bus, and the kids can just walk from one to the other.  If it's necessary, a cop can pull up to the scene and assist. 

There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.

See but that's the thing. WA may have restrictive rules about school bus stop placement, and force the school bus to turn around to get kids on the other side of the street. But this is WA being special. NY will not do this - they will have the bus stop on one side of that street for kids who live on both sides of it. They would advise that anyone who needs to cross to the other side do so at the corner rather than midblock, but d'ya think all the kids follow that advice?

I would wonder if this is a school district issue...and resident issue.  I'm sure some towns have Beverly Goldberg-type moms who demand individual stops at every house, no road crossings, etc, and will fight non-stop until they get what they want.  Other areas or towns may not have this issue, and parents are more permissible in allowing kids to cross the street.

Also depends on school policy, sidewalks, etc.  The bus departments for schools should be extremely familiar with the entire town, and no doubt do drive-bys (which we'll never be aware of because they're in regular vehicles) seeing what conditions exist.  They have to make sure their buses can move around as well, and will probably try to avoid conditions such as tight turns or bus stops in blind spots if at all possible.

Also, as mentioned, just because the kids live on opposite sides of the street doesn't mean the bus needs to turn around.  If the area has multiple buses passing by, they can easily have two different buses picking up kids in the area.

[webny99]

My problem with NY really isn't that stopping would be required on a small two-lane divided road. It's that stopping would be required on roads that are basically expressways. I understand stopping one direction of major roads, in case some kid runs the wrong way, but both directions is overkill, in light of the view that oncoming traffic would have.

Yes, agreed that this is obtuse. Take a road like this, for example. It totally defies one's expectations to have to stop for a bus five or six lanes away - and yes, buses do stop on this section of Mt. Read. 

I would wonder if this is a school district issue...and resident issue.  I'm sure some towns have Beverly Goldberg-type moms who demand individual stops at every house, no road crossings, etc, and will fight non-stop until they get what they want.  Other areas or towns may not have this issue, and parents are more permissible in allowing kids to cross the street.

The extent to which the stereotypical overprotective moms get involved probably really depends on the roadway - and neighborhood - character. Around here, buses may do several stops within a neighborhood, but not necessarily every house. The more houses that have kids to pick up, the less likely the bus is to stop for each one individually. Take this neighborhood, for example. The cul-de-sac on the right has about 8 houses. The bus is not going to actually go down that cul-de-sac and do individual stops. All the kids from those houses can come to the corner and get on at once. Where I would draw the line is for areas that aren't actually "neighborhoods". Anything with a double solid yellow line should probably not have kids crossing the street - too dangerous with the additional through traffic and drivers potentially not expecting it.

In my own neighborhood, some kids got their own stop, while there were some bulk stops. At one point kids from 4 houses got on at our stop, but now that we don't have any bus riders, the bus stop has moved down the street to reduce the amount of kids walking to the bus stop.

[1995hoo]

I've been on school buses that broke down or were in traffic accidents where we had to change to other buses. In no case did we go directly from one bus to the other without getting off the first bus. I can definitely think of one case where traffic did not stop, though: We were on our way back from Richmond when the bus started leaking diesel fuel on I-95 and the driver pulled way off on the right shoulder. We all had to get off and go wait up on top of the grass hill next to the highway. The red lights never came on and traffic, understandably, didn't stop (that would have caused a pileup!).

[RobbieL2415]

School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic.  The law really should require them to pull over when this happens.  I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house.  Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.

[mrsman]

I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train.  Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time.  He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing.  The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit.  25 people died.

While not really serving as precedent, this famous video that many of us watched while we were kids used school bus stopping at RR crossings as the basis for explaining how a bill becomes a law.  I assume it is a federal requirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0

Watch the whole video, it's only 3 minutes, but the relevant part is at 0:45.

It is a federal requirement. However, the "I'm Just a Bill" video takes a bit of a liberty on the issue, according to its Wikipedia page:

The Bill is for the law that school buses must stop at railroad crossings. In the song, the Bill becomes a law; in reality, such a bill has never been approved by the United States Congress, but an equivalent regulation was codified by the United States Department of Transportation at 49 C.F.R. 392.10.

The law applies to all buses carrying passengers (not just school buses), as well as a variety of commercial vehicles that transport fuels and chemicals. And the required stopping distance is within 15—50 feet of the tracks.

Thanks for the complete story.  I suppose for the purposes of kids who watched this umpteen times on Saturday mornings back in the 70's and 80's they wanted to pick a rule that was relateable to the 5 to 10 year olds who were watching.  And I suppose most of the kids watching have ridden school buses and may or may not have noticed their buses coming to a complete stop (and even opening their doors) on the approach to railroad crossings.  In any event, as a kid, I found it informative and the song very memorable!

[mrsman]

School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic.  The law really should require them to pull over when this happens.  I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house.  Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.

There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that.  Stopping at every house is ridiculous.  In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.

Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.

[Duke87]

In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.

In the snow, uphill both ways?


At any rate, it is worth noting that requiring vehicles to stop for school buses is rather unusual and extreme, globally speaking. While ubiquitous in US and Canada, it is unheard of elsewhere. In most of the world, the law either prescribes a maximum speed at which a stopped school bus may be passed, or simply says you need to be careful while doing so. Any vehicles passing a stopped school bus are, naturally, expected to yield to any children crossing the street, if there are any.

This is why ultimately I would argue that requiring all traffic to stop whenever a school bus does is needlessly dictatorial, and something which should be done away with in favor of less restrictive measures such as "do not pass a stopped school bus at more than 20 mph, yield to any children crossing the street". The rest of the world gets by on this just fine and isn't seeing kids run over left and right because of it.

[Rothman]

The issue with that idea here is that the Internet is replete of videos of drivers behaving badly around school buses.

I am fine with getting rid of the "stop at all rail crossings" laws, but stopping for school buses seems still to be prudent.

[jakeroot]

The issue with that idea here is that the Internet is replete of videos of drivers behaving badly around school buses.

Most of the videos just seem to be violations that would otherwise be legal maneuvers outside North America.

I would argue that requiring all traffic to stop whenever a school bus does is needlessly dictatorial, and something which should be done away with in favor of less restrictive measures such as "do not pass a stopped school bus at more than 20 mph, yield to any children crossing the street". The rest of the world gets by on this just fine and isn't seeing kids run over left and right because of it.

You are more liberal on this topic than I would have expected. I would be fine with this, so long as we eliminate stops that pickup from both sides of the street. Everything would need to be right-side only.

[mrsman]

In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.

In the snow, uphill both ways?


At any rate, it is worth noting that requiring vehicles to stop for school buses is rather unusual and extreme, globally speaking. While ubiquitous in US and Canada, it is unheard of elsewhere. In most of the world, the law either prescribes a maximum speed at which a stopped school bus may be passed, or simply says you need to be careful while doing so. Any vehicles passing a stopped school bus are, naturally, expected to yield to any children crossing the street, if there are any.

This is why ultimately I would argue that requiring all traffic to stop whenever a school bus does is needlessly dictatorial, and something which should be done away with in favor of less restrictive measures such as "do not pass a stopped school bus at more than 20 mph, yield to any children crossing the street". The rest of the world gets by on this just fine and isn't seeing kids run over left and right because of it.

I agree.  To some extent, it would be nice if it was treated a lot more like transit buses.  No expectation that you would be able to just cross the street as soon as you get off the bus.  You get off on the right side and you wait to cross when it is safe.  Busier streets should be crossed at traffic lsignals.

I guess as an open question, for a divided street, in most states, only the traffic on the side of the street with the bus has to stop, but not the side opposite.  Why?  Because for the most part, you don't expect kids to cross the street.  So why have the traffic stop at all? 

It is especially hard when the bus reaches the school.  Imagine in a city, without a bus parking lot, and the bus is on the street on the side of the school.  IT could take close to 10 minutes to unload a bus.  Should all traffic be stopped for this, especially when everyone is not even crossing the street?  I think in this circumstance, the bus does not flash their lights, but I don't know that for sure.

[PurdueBill]

I've been on school buses that broke down or were in traffic accidents where we had to change to other buses. In no case did we go directly from one bus to the other without getting off the first bus. I can definitely think of one case where traffic did not stop, though: We were on our way back from Richmond when the bus started leaking diesel fuel on I-95 and the driver pulled way off on the right shoulder. We all had to get off and go wait up on top of the grass hill next to the highway. The red lights never came on and traffic, understandably, didn't stop (that would have caused a pileup!).

I can recall a bad pileup years ago north of Boston, and maybe someone else from around there can remember it, where a school bus had pulled over to the side of either I-93 or I-495 and when they opened the door, the red lights activated and just enough people instinctively slowed/stopped (even though they were on the expressway mainline) that it caused a bad pileup that blocked the road for hours afterward.  It was on either 93 or 495, near the intersection of those two roads, and involved a broken-down school bus that had pulled over and inadvertently activated its lights.  I can't remember exactly when, but it was quite a few years back.

[kphoger]

I guess as an open question, for a divided street, in most states, only the traffic on the side of the street with the bus has to stop, but not the side opposite.  Why?  Because for the most part, you don't expect kids to cross the street.  So why have the traffic stop at all? 

I'd say the difference is that there is a reasonable expectation school children will cross minor streets and roads (two lanes) but much less so that they will cross major thoroughfares (divided).

[jeffandnicole]

I guess as an open question, for a divided street, in most states, only the traffic on the side of the street with the bus has to stop, but not the side opposite.  Why?  Because for the most part, you don't expect kids to cross the street.  So why have the traffic stop at all? 

I'd say the difference is that there is a reasonable expectation school children will cross minor streets and roads (two lanes) but much less so that they will cross major thoroughfares (divided).

I think it's expected, although I also think schools are increasingly attempting to create bus routes and stops where kids don't have to cross the street, especially on county and state roads.  In developments, it's probably more likely kids will be asked to cross the street.

There's always the not-really-thinking factor:  Kid's getting on or off a bus, and something flies out of their hand.  Out of instinct, they run after it, crossing the road.

And before you say anything about kids need to be more aware of their surroundings, one of the major cited reasons for auto accidents by adults - inattentiveness.   Adults are constantly not giving a second though about their actions.  While it's way more innocent, think about the times someone in a supermarket just walks in front of you (and in many cases, without a sorry, or worse, they act like you're at fault). 

[jakeroot]

There's always the not-really-thinking factor:  Kid's getting on or off a bus, and something flies out of their hand.  Out of instinct, they run after it, crossing the road.

Washington State has attempted to deter incidents like this, by installing crossing arms on the front of school buses. It's a yellow bar that extends from the bumper when the red lights are flashing. This forces children to walk around the yellow bar. The primary idea is to make sure children cross where the bus driver can see them, but it's also used to deter incidents where children go flying into the street, immediately after getting off the bus. The bar basically trips them up.

I've seen these in other states, as well as some places in Canada. But they are standard here, and have been for some time, following an incident.

[1995hoo]

Kids chasing objects they dropped are also a reason many newer school buses have flat fronts. When I was a kid, school buses had the engine under a hood, but that was found to make it harder for bus drivers to spot small children. The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.

[jeffandnicole]

Kids chasing objects they dropped are also a reason many newer school buses have flat fronts. When I was a kid, school buses had the engine under a hood, but that was found to make it harder for bus drivers to spot small children. The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.

I thought the front bar was basically a standard design in all states now. If not all, then many.

I've seen a few buses at one time with flat fronts, but they never really gained much traction here in NJ. Nearly all current buses I've seen have the engine under the hood.

[1995hoo]

Kids chasing objects they dropped are also a reason many newer school buses have flat fronts. When I was a kid, school buses had the engine under a hood, but that was found to make it harder for bus drivers to spot small children. The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.

I thought the front bar was basically a standard design in all states now. If not all, then many.

I've seen a few buses at one time with flat fronts, but they never really gained much traction here in NJ. Nearly all current buses I've seen have the engine under the hood.

I didn't mean to imply the flat front is used in lieu of the bar. School buses in Fairfax County these days usually have both. I think there are still some that don't have the flat front (especially the smaller buses for special ed kids), but they all have the bar as far as I know.

[jakeroot]

I think you two are describing buses that are either cabover, or conventional. Cabover buses have a flat front with the engine below, whereas conventional buses have the engine in front of the driver.

Virtually all school buses in Washington State are cabover. This is not true in British Columbia, where conventional is more popular.

The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.

I thought the front bar was basically a standard design in all states now. If not all, then many.

It may be. They're on all WA buses, and have been since 1992. But it's not in the FMVSS.

[UCFKnights]

School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic.  The law really should require them to pull over when this happens.  I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house.  Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.

There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that.  Stopping at every house is ridiculous.  In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.

Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.

for some reason, Florida seems to love keeping buses on main streets and not pulling into subdivisions. Where I live now, all 6 buses that serve us stop outside of our 1000+ home community and load/unload the ENTIRE BUS on the main artery, causing 15-20 minutes of severe backup 6 times a day. I really don't understand why they can't pull into the communities around here.

[rickmastfan67]

School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic.  The law really should require them to pull over when this happens.  I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house.  Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.

There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that.  Stopping at every house is ridiculous.  In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.

Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.

for some reason, Florida seems to love keeping buses on main streets and not pulling into subdivisions. Where I live now, all 6 buses that serve us stop outside of our 1000+ home community and load/unload the ENTIRE BUS on the main artery, causing 15-20 minutes of severe backup 6 times a day. I really don't understand why they can't pull into the communities around here.

I would think that the community is banning them from entering if they are doing their stuff on the main road.

[UCFKnights]

School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic.  The law really should require them to pull over when this happens.  I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house.  Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.

There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that.  Stopping at every house is ridiculous.  In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.

Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.

for some reason, Florida seems to love keeping buses on main streets and not pulling into subdivisions. Where I live now, all 6 buses that serve us stop outside of our 1000+ home community and load/unload the ENTIRE BUS on the main artery, causing 15-20 minutes of severe backup 6 times a day. I really don't understand why they can't pull into the communities around here.

I would think that the community is banning them from entering if they are doing their stuff on the main road.

Nope. The last community I was in I was president of the HOA, we tried to convince the school district to bring the bus into the community as it was a 2 mile walk to the bus stop from the furthest house and we didn't want kids dropped off on a road with a 50mph speed limit. They said no, it would be a liability as its private roadways.

Now I'm in a community with public roadways, and again asked the district if they can pull into the community, due to the traffic issues the bus causes, and was told no, the buses are on a tight schedule, and leaving the main roadways would add several minutes to the dropoff and make them need more buses. I've lived in 5 counties throughout the state of Florida and not one of them was pulling the buses into neighborhoods, unless there is someone handicapped that is unable to make the bus stop.

I grew up in Jersey and the bus went to the corner down the street from my house and an easy walk. Here, everyone drives to the community entries and waits with their kids, which makes traffic even more of a mess as you get like 20-30 cars now parked at that intersection as well. Total insanity. But its a couple miles from home to the bus stop for some of the people, so who can blame them.

When I first moved to Florida as student, no bus was offered to me and I had to walk over 2 miles to school, my parents tried to get them to get a bus for me as the policy was that distance should have had a bus offered to me, but they refused, initially claiming they measure as the crow flies (apparently I should fly or swim to school?), and after my parents argued how ridiculous that was, they then argued the bus wouldn't go into the community, and if they added a bus, it'd be at the intersection on the major road, which was over half way there and within the distance they don't offer bus service so I was forced to walk.

[mrsman]

Disastrous.

They really should implement European style stopping in that kind of situation.  Nobody is going to cross a multi-lane arterial anyway.