News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

AASHTO May 5, 2013 Route Numbering Actions and Applications

Started by Grzrd, May 09, 2013, 12:45:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

CanesFan27

Let's take away the numbering for a second.

What should be looked at is the Interstate Highway System as a network of roads/corridors that serve various transportation needs/purposes.  Not as a grid of numbers - which too may in the hobby/forum seem to get caught up in.

If a road is built to Interstate standards, and fits into the overall network, why shouldn't it be signed an interstate? 

As our transportation corridors evolve and change - the need for Interstate standard highways in those areas increase.  If the additional transportation corridors and Interstate System of today existed the same way 55 years ago - I am sure many routes would have different numbers, but it isn't.

The solution isn't to renumber I-4 to I-6 so the proposed I-2 can now become I-4 or whatever the altruistic suggestions that have been made upthread are.

So you have an interstate highway proposal:

Questions in order:

1) Does it meet standards?
2) Does it fill a gap or make a logical expansion of the Interstate Highway system (Network)?

If yes to both,

Then numbering:
1) With the numbers (key word here) AVAILABLE  (/key word here)- What numbering options make the most sense?





froggie

QuoteNot always.  Some of us are in the third category.

If this were the case, then those who are "thinking decades ahead" would notice that the trend is lower VMT, not higher.  Nationally, VMT peaked even before the 2008 recession, and all indications are that it will remain that way.  Under which case, the current system is more or less adequate (local mileage may vary).

Molandfreak

#77
Quote from: froggie on May 17, 2013, 09:47:40 AM
QuoteNot always.  Some of us are in the third category.

If this were the case, then those who are "thinking decades ahead" would notice that the trend is lower VMT, not higher.  Nationally, VMT peaked even before the 2008 recession, and all indications are that it will remain that way.  Under which case, the current system is more or less adequate (local mileage may vary).




Quote from: CanesFan27 on May 17, 2013, 09:35:12 AM
Let's take away the numbering for a second.

What should be looked at is the Interstate Highway System as a network of roads/corridors that serve various transportation needs/purposes.  Not as a grid of numbers - which too may in the hobby/forum seem to get caught up in.

If a road is built to Interstate standards, and fits into the overall network, why shouldn't it be signed an interstate? 

As our transportation corridors evolve and change - the need for Interstate standard highways in those areas increase.  If the additional transportation corridors and Interstate System of today existed the same way 55 years ago - I am sure many routes would have different numbers, but it isn't.

The solution isn't to renumber I-4 to I-6 so the proposed I-2 can now become I-4 or whatever the altruistic suggestions that have been made upthread are.

So you have an interstate highway proposal:

Questions in order:

1) Does it meet standards?
2) Does it fill a gap or make a logical expansion of the Interstate Highway system (Network)?

If yes to both,

Then numbering:
1) With the numbers (key word here) AVAILABLE  (/key word here)- What numbering options make the most sense?
This. And the only extensions to the current system I would presently work on are I-49 as planned and Austin-Houston. I would consider Columbus-Frindlay and maybe the I-11 corridor in a decade or two. Most of planned I-73, 74, 69, and 66 (Kentucky) are just stupid. Also, forgive me for not wanting an I-98 over 300 freaking miles from the Canadian border (WIS 29)

Decades ahead can be rational if linking major cities. And now this is just getting too fictional.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

Brandon

Quote from: froggie on May 17, 2013, 09:47:40 AM
QuoteNot always.  Some of us are in the third category.

If this were the case, then those who are "thinking decades ahead" would notice that the trend is lower VMT, not higher.  Nationally, VMT peaked even before the 2008 recession, and all indications are that it will remain that way.  Under which case, the current system is more or less adequate (local mileage may vary).

Don't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

english si

Quote from: Steve on May 17, 2013, 12:02:26 AM
There are three camps:
Those who want Interstate designations for everything that's remotely a freeway or could be made one
Those who want to keep everything exactly as it is because state route freeways are exciting
Those who would apply rational judgment
More like 5, sorted by the size of their interstate network:
Those who want Interstate designations for everything*
Those who want Interstate designations for everything that's remotely a freeway or could be made one
Those who would apply rational judgement
Those who want to keep everything exactly as it is because state route freeways are exciting
Those who think there are too many interstates and want some to revert to US/State freeways

*This first group should be referred to as "yellow stoners".

froggie

QuoteDon't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.

Don't bet on the increase.  Even factoring out the recession and fuel economy, all indications are that the younger generations are driving noticeably less than in previous years.  Today's young adults just don't drive as much as the young adults of even 10 years ago.

Brandon

Quote from: froggie on May 18, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
QuoteDon't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.

Don't bet on the increase.  Even factoring out the recession and fuel economy, all indications are that the younger generations are driving noticeably less than in previous years.  Today's young adults just don't drive as much as the young adults of even 10 years ago.


They don't own cars currently for a few factors.

1. Cars, even used ones are expensive now.  It's easier to drive mom and dad's vehicles and not report it as "owning" a car.

2. They quite often don't have the jobs necessary to buy vehicles currently.  Can you buy a $10k used car while flipping burgers?

3. The above *are* directly related to the economy.

I'll bet on an increase instead of a decrease based on that and what's occurred in the past, thankyouverymuch.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Revive 755

Quote from: froggie on May 17, 2013, 09:47:40 AM
QuoteNot always.  Some of us are in the third category.

If this were the case, then those who are "thinking decades ahead" would notice that the trend is lower VMT, not higher.  Nationally, VMT peaked even before the 2008 recession, and all indications are that it will remain that way.  Under which case, the current system is more or less adequate (local mileage may vary).

And what of truck traffic volumes, either separately or as part of the national VMT measure?  Given a likely increase in internet sales, I don't think truck traffic growth will stall out.

vdeane

Quote from: Brandon on May 18, 2013, 10:06:14 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 18, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
QuoteDon't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.

Don't bet on the increase.  Even factoring out the recession and fuel economy, all indications are that the younger generations are driving noticeably less than in previous years.  Today's young adults just don't drive as much as the young adults of even 10 years ago.


They don't own cars currently for a few factors.

1. Cars, even used ones are expensive now.  It's easier to drive mom and dad's vehicles and not report it as "owning" a car.

2. They quite often don't have the jobs necessary to buy vehicles currently.  Can you buy a $10k used car while flipping burgers?

3. The above *are* directly related to the economy.

I'll bet on an increase instead of a decrease based on that and what's occurred in the past, thankyouverymuch.
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

deathtopumpkins

Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 18, 2013, 10:06:14 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 18, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
QuoteDon't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.

Don't bet on the increase.  Even factoring out the recession and fuel economy, all indications are that the younger generations are driving noticeably less than in previous years.  Today's young adults just don't drive as much as the young adults of even 10 years ago.


They don't own cars currently for a few factors.

1. Cars, even used ones are expensive now.  It's easier to drive mom and dad's vehicles and not report it as "owning" a car.

2. They quite often don't have the jobs necessary to buy vehicles currently.  Can you buy a $10k used car while flipping burgers?

3. The above *are* directly related to the economy.

I'll bet on an increase instead of a decrease based on that and what's occurred in the past, thankyouverymuch.
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.

Many people of this generation don't want to raise a family.

I for one would be very happy living out my adult life in an urban apartment with no kids. Practically, I can live with no car too. I already do for most of the year. It would be nice to have one for fun though. It's kinda hard to be a roadgeek without one.
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

Clinched Highways | Counties Visited

DTComposer

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 18, 2013, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.

Many people of this generation don't want to raise a family.

I for one would be very happy living out my adult life in an urban apartment with no kids. Practically, I can live with no car too. I already do for most of the year. It would be nice to have one for fun though. It's kinda hard to be a roadgeek without one.

With all due respect, I think you're playing right into his point. It's very easy to make broad-brushstroke decisions about your life at age 19. I'm in the generation right above yours, and a great many of my high school and college and young adult friends wanted the urban, no-child lifestyle. Many of them (myself included) lived that lifestyle throughout our 20s and into our 30s. Over time and with experience, however, perspective changes, and most (certainly not all) have moved into some sort of raising-a-family lifestyle (although many of us have stayed in "urban" vs. "suburban" areas).

You personally may very well continue in your situation throughout your life, but if I were to hazard a guess, the vast majority of your generation will create families, like all generations before them.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Steve on May 17, 2013, 12:02:26 AMThere are three camps:

Those who want Interstate designations for everything that's remotely a freeway or could be made one

Those who want to keep everything exactly as it is because state route freeways are exciting

Those who would apply rational judgment

There is a difference between the second and third camps?
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Alps

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 19, 2013, 01:53:06 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 17, 2013, 12:02:26 AMThere are three camps:

Those who want Interstate designations for everything that's remotely a freeway or could be made one

Those who want to keep everything exactly as it is because state route freeways are exciting

Those who would apply rational judgment

There is a difference between the second and third camps?
:P I live right off I-578. That and I-395 (NJ 55) are the only conversions I'd make in this state.

PHLBOS

Quote from: DTComposer on May 18, 2013, 08:07:12 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 18, 2013, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.

Many people of this generation don't want to raise a family.

I for one would be very happy living out my adult life in an urban apartment with no kids. Practically, I can live with no car too. I already do for most of the year. It would be nice to have one for fun though. It's kinda hard to be a roadgeek without one.

With all due respect, I think you're playing right into his point.
Her point.  Vdeane is one of AAroads female members.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

texaskdog

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 20, 2013, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on May 18, 2013, 08:07:12 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 18, 2013, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.

Many people of this generation don't want to raise a family.

I for one would be very happy living out my adult life in an urban apartment with no kids. Practically, I can live with no car too. I already do for most of the year. It would be nice to have one for fun though. It's kinda hard to be a roadgeek without one.

With all due respect, I think you're playing right into his point.
Her point.  Vdeane is one of AAroads female members.

There are women on AAroads?  So that's why my fiancee doesn't like me being on the forums!!!

Brandon

Quote from: texaskdog on May 20, 2013, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 20, 2013, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on May 18, 2013, 08:07:12 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 18, 2013, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.

Many people of this generation don't want to raise a family.

I for one would be very happy living out my adult life in an urban apartment with no kids. Practically, I can live with no car too. I already do for most of the year. It would be nice to have one for fun though. It's kinda hard to be a roadgeek without one.

With all due respect, I think you're playing right into his point.
Her point.  Vdeane is one of AAroads female members.

There are women on AAroads?  So that's why my fiancee doesn't like me being on the forums!!!

Of all amazing things, female roadgeeks do exist!  They are not some fantasy.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Alps

Quote from: Brandon on May 20, 2013, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on May 20, 2013, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 20, 2013, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on May 18, 2013, 08:07:12 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 18, 2013, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Also, lets ask those people about car ownership a decade or two from now.  Living in the big city and re-creating your college experience is one thing when you're right out of college, and another when you're trying to raise a family.

Many people of this generation don't want to raise a family.

I for one would be very happy living out my adult life in an urban apartment with no kids. Practically, I can live with no car too. I already do for most of the year. It would be nice to have one for fun though. It's kinda hard to be a roadgeek without one.

With all due respect, I think you're playing right into his point.
Her point.  Vdeane is one of AAroads female members.

There are women on AAroads?  So that's why my fiancee doesn't like me being on the forums!!!

Of all amazing things, female roadgeeks do exist!  They are not some fantasy.
Ever seen a meet photo?

vtk

Quote from: froggie on May 18, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
QuoteDon't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.

Don't bet on the increase.  Even factoring out the recession and fuel economy, all indications are that the younger generations are driving noticeably less than in previous years.  Today's young adults just don't drive as much as the young adults of even 10 years ago.


In the long term, population growth will drown out generation-to-generation noise in VMT. Personal aircraft will not replace ground vehicles as long as they waste energy forcing air downwards to stay aloft. If trains become a dominant mode, they'll probably mirror where we have freeways now, and we'll have similar discussions about numbering train routes.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

texaskdog

Quote from: vtk on May 20, 2013, 09:21:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 18, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
QuoteDon't bet that things will be in the future as they are currently.  VMT is depressed right now due to the current depression and the higher fuel prices.  Once the economy gets going again, and fuel prices drop (either by physically dropping or by more fuel-efficient vehicles), expect VMT to rise again.

Don't bet on the increase.  Even factoring out the recession and fuel economy, all indications are that the younger generations are driving noticeably less than in previous years.  Today's young adults just don't drive as much as the young adults of even 10 years ago.


In the long term, population growth will drown out generation-to-generation noise in VMT. Personal aircraft will not replace ground vehicles as long as they waste energy forcing air downwards to stay aloft. If trains become a dominant mode, they'll probably mirror where we have freeways now, and we'll have similar discussions about numbering train routes.

and all that expensive gas

NE2

Quote from: vtk on May 20, 2013, 09:21:26 PM
If trains become a dominant mode, they'll probably mirror where we have freeways now, and we'll have similar discussions about numbering train routes.
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/42434-amtrak-train-numbers/ :bigass:
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

texaskdog


Alex

Was trying to find out more on that Spokane Valley business loop addition, but http://www.transportation.org/ doesn't work. I looked a week or two ago and the site did not work then as well. Is their site ko'd?

Grzrd


texaskdog

Well in the "perfect grid" the 50 longest roads each direction would be 2-dis

Alex

Quote from: Grzrd on June 21, 2013, 01:34:40 PM
^ It just worked for me. Try this link for the Applications:

http://route.transportation.org/Documents/Binder-all%20applications%20May%202013.pdf

and the Actions Report to SCOH:

http://route.transportation.org/Documents/Report%20to%20SCOH%20from%20USRN%20SM2013%20May%203.pdf

Both links timed out, and I get this message from Chrome:
QuoteThe connection to route.transportation.org was interrupted.
and
QuoteError 101 (net::ERR_CONNECTION_RESET): The connection was reset.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.