So I was on the ADOT website the other day. According to ADOT, more than 75% of US 93 in Arizona is 4 lane divided highway. Definitely better than back in the early 1990s. Any thoughts? Unlike the Nevada section, I don't see much conversion towards a future I-11 anytime soon, but I guess that could change.
The Antelope Wash section will be finished in a couple months. The SR 71 to SR 89 section is starting construction soon. The Carrow-Stephens section (search Google Maps for Gunsight Canyon, Arizona) is in design, and was scheduled for construction in FY2016 but got bumped tentatively to FY2023. The Cane Springs section is a 2016 design, and whenever they get money construction (probably FY2027 or later unless money starts raining from the sky). That leaves the east I-40 interchange, a couple miles on the north side of Wikieup, 20+ miles between the Santa Maria River and SR 71 (i.e. where the Joshua trees are), and whatever ends up happening with Wickenburg. It's good progress, but there's a lot of work to go, and no real plans on what will be done or when besides the handful of projects I just mentioned. Arizona is broke and everything that can be deferred is being deferred to free up money for pavement preservation, so it may be another 15 years before anything else gets rolling.
I wouldn't hold my breath for a future I-11 conversion either, but the way things are going, we just might get to see it within the next 25 years or so.
My main hope is that they get US 93 updated to four lanes as soon as possible. In the mean time, they should redirect at least the truck traffic from Las Vegas to Phoenix down I-17. My family often uses all of US 93 and the congestion along the narrow sections worries me at times.
I've subscribed to updates from ADOT. Recently I got an email updating the progress on US 93. Seems ADOT is fairly optimistic that the four lane conversion will be done around 2016. The email goes as follows:
Day work requires minimal delays this week on US 93 west of Wickenburg
Work scheduled Tuesday and Wednesday
Work continues on the expansion project on US 93 (mileposts 185-190) west of Wickenburg and will require minimal delays this week on Tuesday and Wednesday, March 24 and 25 between 7 a.m. and 5 p.m. as crews place temporary concrete barrier and restripe the roadway. Drivers will be guided with flaggers and stopped intermittently at various locations throughout the work zone.
ADOT began this expansion project in February to widen US 93 between State Route 71 and State Route 89. The $12.5 million project, reconstructing the highway into four lanes, is expected to be completed in 2016.
The work zone will be clearly marked by temporary barricades and signage. ADOT advises drivers to allow additional time to reach their destinations and to proceed through the work zone with caution, comply with the reduced speed limit, and be alert for construction equipment and personnel.
For more information about this project, please call Tricia Lewis at 928-606-2420 or email tlewis@azdot.gov.
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Don't know if this will help, but the news article below states Arizona approved a $15 Million Environmental Study for I-11 in December 2014. It also seems the proposed extension to Tucson/Nogales for the project hasn't died either.
http://kjzz.org/content/78150/arizona-state-transportation-board-approves-15m-i-11-environmental-study
How long before we see Interstate 11 shields along US 93? I'd say it will be quite some time before that happens.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
How long before we see Interstate 11 shields along US 93? I'd say it will be quite some time before that happens.
Do you mean signs designating the future I-11 corridor?
If so, there were some signs put up quite a while ago; I believe they were near the hoover dam bypass. There may be others.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1745&bih=903&q=I-+11+future+corridor&oq=I-+11+future+corridor&gs_l=img.3...2348.11926.0.12333.23.7.0.16.0.0.124.733.3j4.7.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.64.img.. (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1745&bih=903&q=I-+11+future+corridor&oq=I-+11+future+corridor&gs_l=img.3...2348.11926.0.12333.23.7.0.16.0.0.124.733.3j4.7.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.64.img..)
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
How long before we see Interstate 11 shields along US 93? I'd say it will be quite some time before that happens.
Not sure, but my guess is between 2021 and 2026.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
How long before we see Interstate 11 shields along US 93? I'd say it will be quite some time before that happens.
Well, the linked article mentions that the Arizona environmental study for the Nogales–Wickenburg portion (includes Phoenix) is going to take 3 years. Add a couple years to finalize design and another couple years for construction, assuming you could build it all at once...means 707's guess of 2021-2026 might be a pretty good one.
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on March 25, 2015, 05:38:31 PMDo you mean signs designating the future I-11 corridor?
If so, there were some signs put up quite a while ago; I believe they were near the hoover dam bypass. There may be others.
Most of those pictures are the show signs for the press day with the Governors, which were on the Hoover Dam.
The real ones are southbound south of where the Hoover Dam bypass ends, northbound north of I-40 at Kingman and southbound south of I-40 exit 71 (and northbound at Wickenburg?), interestingly they mark out the non-freeway portions of the road, presumably so they don't have to move signs when earlier parts of the project open (Boulder City bypass, Kingman bypass) and can allow proper I-11 signs on the freeway portions.
Quote from: roadfro on March 26, 2015, 01:54:39 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
How long before we see Interstate 11 shields along US 93? I'd say it will be quite some time before that happens.
Well, the linked article mentions that the Arizona environmental study for the Nogales–Wickenburg portion (includes Phoenix) is going to take 3 years. Add a couple years to finalize design and another couple years for construction, assuming you could build it all at once...means 707's guess of 2021-2026 might be a pretty good one.
Except that it's likely there will be a decade or two of nothing in between when the design is finished and construction starts because Arizona has no money to pay for it. As it stands now, there will be around 30 miles of US 93 still undivided by the end of 2026, and upgrading those sections would have to be a priority over any freeway construction except the new Kingman interchange. And the environmental stuff on about 20 miles of that will be a fun battle with the environmental groups because of the impacts to the Joshua tree forest. Plus another 5 miles for a bypass of Wikieup.
Quote from: dfwmapper on March 26, 2015, 06:25:46 PM
Quote from: roadfro on March 26, 2015, 01:54:39 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
How long before we see Interstate 11 shields along US 93? I'd say it will be quite some time before that happens.
Well, the linked article mentions that the Arizona environmental study for the Nogales—Wickenburg portion (includes Phoenix) is going to take 3 years. Add a couple years to finalize design and another couple years for construction, assuming you could build it all at once...means 707's guess of 2021-2026 might be a pretty good one.
Except that it's likely there will be a decade or two of nothing in between when the design is finished and construction starts because Arizona has no money to pay for it. As it stands now, there will be around 30 miles of US 93 still undivided by the end of 2026, and upgrading those sections would have to be a priority over any freeway construction except the new Kingman interchange. And the environmental stuff on about 20 miles of that will be a fun battle with the environmental groups because of the impacts to the Joshua tree forest. Plus another 5 miles for a bypass of Wikieup.
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/7464/traffic-switch-on-us-93-near-wikieup-scheduled-for-sept-21/
The three miles of four-laning between milepost 119 to 116 will be completed this fall and traffic has been rerouted to northbound lanes until work on the southbound is completed. There are not a lot of stretches north of SR 97 still needing twinning; most are between Wickenburg and fifteen miles north of SR 71. The road between SR 74 and SR 89 is being four-laned with round-abouts.
Grade separation south of I-40, for interstate status is another story.
Considering how wasteful I-11 is planned to be south of Wickenburg I would settle with a fully four lane US 93 to I-40. Given the US 93/I-40 interchange is being upgraded that would really solve the majority of the remaining traffic problems that were present between AZ 303 and Las Vegas. I think we'll probably see an I-11 between I-15 and I-40, the rest I would probably would say is a 50/50 likelihood at this point.
If Interstate 11 is eventually built as presently proposed in Arizona, along US 93 and beyond, I wonder where mile 0 will be. Usually north-south Interstates have their mile 0 at their southern terminus, or their southern entry point. However, I can see Interstate 11's mile 0 being at the Nevada/Arizona border, with mileposts and exit numbers increasing as one went south. That way they wouldn't have to keep renumbering the exits, like they would if mile 0 was at Interstate 11's future southern terminus, wherever that may be.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 02, 2020, 04:34:14 PM
If Interstate 11 is eventually built as presently proposed in Arizona, along US 93 and beyond, I wonder where mile 0 will be. Usually north-south Interstates have their mile 0 at their southern terminus, or their southern entry point. However, I can see Interstate 11's mile 0 being at the Nevada/Arizona border, with mileposts and exit numbers increasing as one went south. That way they wouldn't have to keep renumbering the exits, like they would if mile 0 was at Interstate 11's future southern terminus, wherever that may be.
I second this idea, given the exact length and placement of the route south of Wickenburg has yet to be fully determined. Plus, it would be less expensive to arrange the mileposts exactly as shown on US 93. Given Arizona's tendency to recycle pre-existing mileposts on new highways, I wouldn't put it past ADOT to leave it as is.
Alternatively, while on the subject of US 93 mileposts, I've been hypothesizing that the mileposts are leftovers from the US 466 extension into Arizona in 1935 or from the SR 93/Nogales Extension Pipedream days. Some anecdotal evidence from Richard Weingroff's writings and studies on the Federal Highway Administration's official website seem to hint US 466's entry into Arizona predated US 93 by as much as a few months. If that is indeed the case, it would be against usual ADOT practice to place US 466 as the primary highway over US 93, though documentation as far back as 1939 shows US 466 being the primary designation on the route despite the US 93/US 466 duality being extant. Then when US 466 was decommissioned from Arizona, they left the mileposts as is similar to the case with US 60, as it saved time and money to redo the entire highway by changing the location of MP 0.00. My other guess is the mileposts have always reflected US 93, but due to Arizona's constant ambitions of extending US 93 to Phoenix, Casa Grande and/or Nogales, it made more sense to put MP 0.00 at the Hoover Dam rather than at the southern end. The logic there being if US 93 was extended south incrementally, the location of MP 0.00 would need to be changed quite frequently and it would save a lot of time and expenses to have it the other way around. The earliest ADOT logs available also show all mileposts and associated mileage on SR 93 being a direct continuation of US 93's, which would help support the second hypothesis. If I had to choose one or the other, I'd go with hypothesis number two, given it makes more logical sense than US 93 being subversive to US 466. And if number two is indeed the case, that would suggest which direction ADOT would go with the I-11 mileposts when completed.
Carrow to Stephens, milepost 116 to 119
https://www.spl.usace.army.mil/Media/Public-Notices/Article/1393419/spl-2014-00259-jmr-us-93-carrow-to-stephens/
Cane Springs, mp 106 to 108.9, will be next, and seems to be scheduled for design next year, shown in future projects, and the map shows in 2023 for construction.
Pierce Ferry Road seems to be the next up for a freeway grade interchange. I agree it's the busiest of all the intersections still at-grade between I-40 and the NV state line.
Study info here- https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/media/2020/09/TW1-US93-PierceFerry-082120.pdf
I would put a full diamond interchange at this location. I looked at the two alternatives from the study, and neither one of them makes sense to me.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 07:30:10 PM
I would put a full diamond interchange at this location. I looked at the two alternatives from the study, and neither one of them makes sense to me.
+1. Can't figure out why they don't go whole hog with a full diamond since Alt 1 already get them halfway there. Alt 2 is just stupid. Take lots of land and an expensive flyover for a single directional move.
Quote from: rte66man on October 13, 2020, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 07:30:10 PM
I would put a full diamond interchange at this location. I looked at the two alternatives from the study, and neither one of them makes sense to me.
+1. Can't figure out why they don't go whole hog with a full diamond since Alt 1 already get them halfway there. Alt 2 is just stupid. Take lots of land and an expensive flyover for a single directional move.
I guess they are just trying to figure out what they can get done as fast as possible with as little cost as possible to resolve the backups from southbound traffic turning left. I agree if you are doing part just do it all, but at least Alt A gets them halfway and isn't a "throwaway" improvement for the full interstate improvements.
It's Half a diamond interchange. (Alt 1) Sure seems stupid, though, to build Half of it instead of the whole thing at once. How much more would it really be to just build the whole thing? You would have the construction company all set up at that remote location. At least it's not Design Regressive, though, it does appear to conform to established standards.
Quote from: DJStephens on October 13, 2020, 09:03:47 PM
It's Half a diamond interchange. (Alt 1) Sure seems stupid, though, to build Half of it instead of the whole thing at once. How much more would it really be to just build the whole thing? You would have the construction company all set up at that remote location. At least it's not Design Regressive, though, it does appear to conform to established standards.
A similar situation to Alt 1 was proposed for US 60 at SR 79 back in the 90s when there was a pressing need to address the number of fatal accidents, as the vast majority were attributable to northbound traffic failing to yield to eastbound traffic.
It was refreshing to see good sense prevail when the roadway was relocated and a full diamond was constructed in 2003.
Similarly, it makes sense to go ahead and build a full diamond in this instance, especially when Interstate Standard is the long term goal. Plus there's plenty of room so I'm at a loss as to why they would propose such an asinine idea here.
Quote from: JKRhodes on November 15, 2020, 10:34:54 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 13, 2020, 09:03:47 PM
It's Half a diamond interchange. (Alt 1) Sure seems stupid, though, to build Half of it instead of the whole thing at once. How much more would it really be to just build the whole thing? You would have the construction company all set up at that remote location. At least it's not Design Regressive, though, it does appear to conform to established standards.
A similar situation to Alt 1 was proposed for US 60 at SR 79 back in the 90s when there was a pressing need to address the number of fatal accidents, as the vast majority were attributable to northbound traffic failing to yield to eastbound traffic.
It was refreshing to see good sense prevail when the roadway was relocated and a full diamond was constructed in 2003.
Similarly, it makes sense to go ahead and build a full diamond in this instance, especially when Interstate Standard is the long term goal. Plus there's plenty of room so I'm at a loss as to why they would propose such an asinine idea here.
Two theories:
1. They aren't anticipating funds to be available for a full diamond through the next STIP cycle
2. Whoever is in charge of the project was told to focus on safety only.
The half-diamond isn't ... bad. It's just weird. I mean, to me it seems like if you're going to do the half diamond, at least make it a full interchange with a left exit with ramps.
Something tells me that I-11 will be finished to Kingman before the parts south to Phoenix/Tucson/Nogales/wherever are. In this case, it would make sense, especially considering the uncertainty of its route past Wickenburg.
The "Carrow Springs" project north of Wikieup is pretty much finished and all four lanes open when I drove this a little over a week ago. Now there's only one section between Wikieup and I-40 where it's not widened besides the interchange. It looks like the other- the "Cane Springs" is up next after the widening through Wickenburg.
The only major issues now are still the usual backups at the I-40/93 Beale St interchange, and what's called the "Big Jim Wash" section.
The Big Jim Wash area, mainly southbound has become a real problem over the past couple of years. With the increasing amount of truck traffic and an incline when heading SB and no passing lanes for about 6 miles, it's become the slowest part of the drive. Trucks tend to slow to 35-40 MPH because of the incline and NB traffic is to the point it's not possible to safely pass them. This is the area just immediately south of the original widened section of 93, about halfway between Wickenburg and Wikieup.
I noticed this section popped up as planned for a 2023 widening though.
Quote from: Henry on November 18, 2020, 11:07:41 AM
Something tells me that I-11 will be finished to Kingman before the parts south to Phoenix/Tucson/Nogales/wherever are. In this case, it would make sense, especially considering the uncertainty of its route past Wickenburg.
That's probably a good assessment; the section from Kingman to the NV line hosts not only traffic originating in southern AZ but E-W traffic from I-40 as well -- it's doing "double duty" in that regard, particularly with regards to commercial transport. It's pretty clear that ADOT has a game plan for the remainder of the route, at least the part that will basically overlay US 93 -- build as much as they can out to at least Interstate geometry but without grade separations -- job #1 in outlying areas. The next step likely won't be taken until the alignment between Wickenburg and Phoenix and/or I-10 is finalized; that would include step-by-step buildout to full Interstate standards as well as doing something about Wikieup that'll satisfy I-standards but won't result in the town's demise. Considering that the I-11 designation only happened eight years ago (infancy by current corridor development standards), the fact that much of US 93 is now a much safer 4-lane facility -- and there's more of the same to come to fill in the gaps -- speaks volumes. But with the impending I-40/I-11 interchange in Kingman, it would be expected that more attention would be paid (or diverted) to Kingman-NV simply because it effectively functions as its own "SIU" independent of any segment to the south.
I'm not 100% convinced whether Interstate 11 will ever make it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Perhaps Interstate 11 will eventually be built to the Phoenix metropolitan area, and the DOT might leave the southern terminus there.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
I'm not 100% convinced whether Interstate 11 will ever make it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Perhaps Interstate 11 will eventually be built to the Phoenix metropolitan area, and the DOT might leave the southern terminus there.
IMO it'll likely get to Casa Grande to serve as a Phoenix bypass -- but since it's largely duplicative south of there around Tucson to the border, those plans will eventually be eliminated. Part of the impetus for those was longstanding frustration regarding freeways in the Tucson area with the "solution" being an outer I-11 western bypass. But the need for extra capacity Tucson-Nogales is obviated by the fact that OEM production facilities south of the border have largely been supplanted by similar Asian (principally Chinese) production, particularly in the area of consumer products. With that no longer a factor, the expense and disruption of building a duplicate freeway from Nogales to Casa Grande will in all likelihood be enough to sink the conceptual project. Also, the "Sonoran" corridor from I-19 east to I-10 is likely to deflect much of the efforts of ADOT and local freeway enthusiasts for quite a while.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
I'm not 100% convinced whether Interstate 11 will ever make it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Perhaps Interstate 11 will eventually be built to the Phoenix metropolitan area, and the DOT might leave the southern terminus there.
Am normally pro construction, but anything south of Phoenix metro for I-11 is simply duplication and waste. Was under the impression that was the purpose of six laning the entire I-10 corridor between Tucson and Phoenix, anyway.
Quote from: DJStephens on November 28, 2020, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
I'm not 100% convinced whether Interstate 11 will ever make it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Perhaps Interstate 11 will eventually be built to the Phoenix metropolitan area, and the DOT might leave the southern terminus there.
Am normally pro construction, but anything south of Phoenix metro for I-11 is simply duplication and waste. Was under the impression that was the purpose of six laning the entire I-10 corridor between Tucson and Phoenix, anyway.
Since expansion of I-10 through the Gila reservation seems to be stuck in neutral, a I-11 western Phoenix bypass (Casa Grande-Buckeye-Wickenburg) may well serve as a "relief route" -- functioning as a virtual "x10" southern bypass/shortcut of greater PHX. While improving the Phoenix-Tucson direct route would, of course, be optimal, at least -- if the I-10/Gila impasse persists, a I-11 swinging around the southern 'burbs would ostensibly redirect commercial I-10 "pass through" traffic. But seeing as how an actual alignment for the proposed facility has yet to be finalized, it's entirely possible that I-10 expansion could be done well before I-11 makes it that far south.
Quote from: sparker on November 29, 2020, 06:07:18 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 28, 2020, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
I'm not 100% convinced whether Interstate 11 will ever make it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Perhaps Interstate 11 will eventually be built to the Phoenix metropolitan area, and the DOT might leave the southern terminus there.
Am normally pro construction, but anything south of Phoenix metro for I-11 is simply duplication and waste. Was under the impression that was the purpose of six laning the entire I-10 corridor between Tucson and Phoenix, anyway.
Since expansion of I-10 through the Gila reservation seems to be stuck in neutral, a I-11 western Phoenix bypass (Casa Grande-Buckeye-Wickenburg) may well serve as a "relief route" -- functioning as a virtual "x10" southern bypass/shortcut of greater PHX. While improving the Phoenix-Tucson direct route would, of course, be optimal, at least -- if the I-10/Gila impasse persists, a I-11 swinging around the southern 'burbs would ostensibly redirect commercial I-10 "pass through" traffic. But seeing as how an actual alignment for the proposed facility has yet to be finalized, it's entirely possible that I-10 expansion could be done well before I-11 makes it that far south.
I believe that ADOT and the Gila River tribe have been working over the past year or so on finally getting improvements to I-10 done. Currently open for public comments.
http://i10wildhorsepasscorridor.com/
Quote from: Sonic99 on November 30, 2020, 02:51:24 PM
Quote from: sparker on November 29, 2020, 06:07:18 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 28, 2020, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
I'm not 100% convinced whether Interstate 11 will ever make it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Perhaps Interstate 11 will eventually be built to the Phoenix metropolitan area, and the DOT might leave the southern terminus there.
Am normally pro construction, but anything south of Phoenix metro for I-11 is simply duplication and waste. Was under the impression that was the purpose of six laning the entire I-10 corridor between Tucson and Phoenix, anyway.
Since expansion of I-10 through the Gila reservation seems to be stuck in neutral, a I-11 western Phoenix bypass (Casa Grande-Buckeye-Wickenburg) may well serve as a "relief route" -- functioning as a virtual "x10" southern bypass/shortcut of greater PHX. While improving the Phoenix-Tucson direct route would, of course, be optimal, at least -- if the I-10/Gila impasse persists, a I-11 swinging around the southern 'burbs would ostensibly redirect commercial I-10 "pass through" traffic. But seeing as how an actual alignment for the proposed facility has yet to be finalized, it's entirely possible that I-10 expansion could be done well before I-11 makes it that far south.
I believe that ADOT and the Gila River tribe have been working over the past year or so on finally getting improvements to I-10 done. Currently open for public comments.
http://i10wildhorsepasscorridor.com/
Expanding I-10 to at least 6 overall lanes would be quite helpful for interregional travel. Although a I-11 facility between Buckeye and Casa Grande
would function as a Phoenix metro bypass for I-10 traffic, much of the push for its development along that segment has come from Maricopa-area developers who desire to have freeway access to the various housing tracts and commercial zones they're attempting to proffer. Fortunately, they don't much care if it extends south of Casa Grande as long as it connects with I-8 or I-10 at the southeast end and I-10 and the future northward I-11 at the other end. But a lot of the pressure -- if not rationale -- for I-11 anywhere south of I-10 near Buckeye -- will dissipate once I-10 is in the process of expansion; development of that segment will likely depend upon the continued influence of land developers with state and local AZ agencies.
I was under that impression but after driving between Phoenix and Tucson a few times recently, I see how there is a future need for a bypass even with an improved I-10.
Now I-10 is 6 lanes all the way from the north end of Casa Grande through Tucson. It's already a heavily traveled route, especially with truck traffic, and felt like a fourth lane is already necessary at times.
This is with current development in the area. With the future continued suburbanization coming from both directions, as the towns along the route like Eloy, Red Rock and Casa Grande expand this route will become more like an urban freeway, serving the local areas as well as the cross country traffic. A bypass to the west would allow the cross country traffic to bypass this future congested area. It may not be truly needed for 20 years but its time to at least talk about it now.
Whatever happens here, I would like to see SR 85 fully upgraded to Interstate standards and an Interstate number assigned to the route. If I-11's south terminus is at I-8 or the border at Lukeville, so be it. If the upgraded SR 85 is a 3DI spur route off of I-8, I-10, or I-11, that would work for me, too.
I see no reason to have parallel Interstate highways from Casa Grande to the Marana area. Widening I-10 should be sufficient.
I could, however, see the utility of a western bypass of Tucson that would cross I-19 south of the city and swing around and reconnect with I-10 in the SR 83/Houghton Road area, and I understand studies have been conducted at least for the section east of I-19. Such a road could provide an alternative for long-haul international truck traffic that now goes through central Tucson, and that would be a good thing. However, with the ongoing aversion to freeway construction in the Tucson area and the city's progressive politics, it's hard to envision this happening anytime soon.
I can't believe people are talking about AZ 85 being upgraded. My father lived in Ajo and Lukeville when he was a kid and the last time I was down there (early 1990s), two lanes was plenty. :D
Quote from: Rothman on December 04, 2020, 12:55:03 AM
I can't believe people are talking about AZ 85 being upgraded. My father lived in Ajo and Lukeville when he was a kid and the last time I was down there (early 1990s), two lanes was plenty. :D
I think that the only section of AZ 85 under present consideration for upgrades is that between Gila Bend (I-8) and Buckeye (I-10); much of that is already expressway with some provision for future interchanges. Since that is the effective "direct route" between the two major metros of Phoenix and San Diego, it's ripe for expansion -- IMO should have been brought out to Interstate standards in the late '80's or early '90's. South of Gila Bend the traffic is much more sparse, consisting of local traffic to and from Ajo and recreational/fishing traffic to and from the border crossing and the Gulf of California beyond. At present, no need to expand that facility beyond a few passing lanes here and there.
Quote from: sparker on December 04, 2020, 04:08:01 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 04, 2020, 12:55:03 AM
I can't believe people are talking about AZ 85 being upgraded. My father lived in Ajo and Lukeville when he was a kid and the last time I was down there (early 1990s), two lanes was plenty. :D
I think that the only section of AZ 85 under present consideration for upgrades is that between Gila Bend (I-8) and Buckeye (I-10); much of that is already expressway with some provision for future interchanges. Since that is the effective "direct route" between the two major metros of Phoenix and San Diego, it's ripe for expansion -- IMO should have been brought out to Interstate standards in the late '80's or early '90's. South of Gila Bend the traffic is much more sparse, consisting of local traffic to and from Ajo and recreational/fishing traffic to and from the border crossing and the Gulf of California beyond. At present, no need to expand that facility beyond a few passing lanes here and there.
It goes back even farther than that. AZ state route 85 between Interstates 8 and 10 was proposed as an Interstate connector in the late sixties. As one of the "first" round of chargeable additions, 1968 to best of belief.
Quote from: sparker on December 04, 2020, 04:08:01 AM
South of Gila Bend the traffic is much more sparse, consisting of local traffic to and from Ajo and recreational/fishing traffic to and from the border crossing and the Gulf of California beyond. At present, no need to expand that facility beyond a few passing lanes here and there.
At the risk of getting political here, if AZ 85 is widened (or upgraded to Interstate standards) south of Gila Bend, Mexico should pay for it.
Quote from: DJStephens on December 04, 2020, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: sparker on December 04, 2020, 04:08:01 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 04, 2020, 12:55:03 AM
I can't believe people are talking about AZ 85 being upgraded. My father lived in Ajo and Lukeville when he was a kid and the last time I was down there (early 1990s), two lanes was plenty. :D
I think that the only section of AZ 85 under present consideration for upgrades is that between Gila Bend (I-8) and Buckeye (I-10); much of that is already expressway with some provision for future interchanges. Since that is the effective "direct route" between the two major metros of Phoenix and San Diego, it's ripe for expansion -- IMO should have been brought out to Interstate standards in the late '80's or early '90's. South of Gila Bend the traffic is much more sparse, consisting of local traffic to and from Ajo and recreational/fishing traffic to and from the border crossing and the Gulf of California beyond. At present, no need to expand that facility beyond a few passing lanes here and there.
It goes back even farther than that. AZ state route 85 between Interstates 8 and 10 was proposed as an Interstate connector in the late sixties. As one of the "first" round of chargeable additions, 1968 to best of belief.
That was still signed as US 80 back in '68; it was still a rural 2-lane facility for the most part until well after 80 was decommissioned and AZ 85 extended north over its former alignment. Until I-10 was completed and the direct connector (including the semi-directional interchange) to AZ 85 was built, with the latter realigned over the connector, AZ 85 was signed over the original US 80 route into downtown Phoenix. The proposed Interstate connector was one of the corridors "washed out" when the 1968 additions were pared down to 1500 miles from the original proposed 4500. No indication as to what it would have been designated, since numbers for even the corridors that "made the final cut" weren't selected until a year or so later.
Quote from: kdk on December 02, 2020, 07:02:17 PM
I was under that impression but after driving between Phoenix and Tucson a few times recently, I see how there is a future need for a bypass even with an improved I-10.
Now I-10 is 6 lanes all the way from the north end of Casa Grande through Tucson. It's already a heavily traveled route, especially with truck traffic, and felt like a fourth lane is already necessary at times.
This is with current development in the area. With the future continued suburbanization coming from both directions, as the towns along the route like Eloy, Red Rock and Casa Grande expand this route will become more like an urban freeway, serving the local areas as well as the cross country traffic. A bypass to the west would allow the cross country traffic to bypass this future congested area. It may not be truly needed for 20 years but its time to at least talk about it now.
Would agree that an eight lane cross section would be useful in the Casa Grande environs. The most recent "add a lane" appears to have been a cheap job of widening to the inside. Also was of opinion that the ancient trumpet of the I-8 interchange was to be replaced. Instead, it lives on.
About 40 miles to go before all of US 93 in Arizona is widened.
https://azdot.gov/adot-news/us-93-widened-four-lanes-north-wikieup
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on December 09, 2020, 03:02:05 PM
About 40 miles to go before all of US 93 in Arizona is widened.
https://azdot.gov/adot-news/us-93-widened-four-lanes-north-wikieup
I still wonder how ADOT is planning on handling Wikieup itself. A "pure" bypass, likely with a "biz route" directional exit/entrance at either end and one interchange in the middle would likely decimate any on-road business unless funds were provided the on-road businesses to relocate to the new facility. It would seem that there just might be room to put 4 lanes (with a narrow/K-rail median and the absolute minimum shoulders to meet Interstate criteria) plus 2 lanes of TX-style directional frontage road on either side could be done with minimal structure demolition or moving (the saving grace of small towns like this is that buildings tend to be widely spaced and set back from the roadway). Throw in an overpass or two for cross-town access plus making roadside facililties on the opposite side of the freeway accessible from either direction, and a "mini-Texas" situation might be feasible. Preferably, the freeway should be at-grade, with a few slip ramps, for visual purposes -- accompanied by Big Blue Signs with restaurant/refueling/convenience store listings on them. Also ADOT should install EV recharging facilities within the fuel stations (we call 'em "Tesla plugs" around here! -- IMO, this is something that should be a feature of all new "aftermarket" Interstates). Basically, seeing as how Wikieup is the only piece of civilization between Wickenburg and Kingman, it would behoove ADOT planners to maximize localized access here by putting a little thought into how the freeway will interface with what the town needs to remain viable. And if multiple slip ramps mean I-11 speed will reduce to 55 or so through town, that's simply the "cost of doing business" in this instance.
Quote from: sparker on December 10, 2020, 06:57:11 PM
I still wonder how ADOT is planning on handling Wikieup itself. A "pure" bypass, likely with a "biz route" directional exit/entrance at either end and one interchange in the middle would likely decimate any on-road business unless funds were provided the on-road businesses to relocate to the new facility. It would seem that there just might be room to put 4 lanes (with a narrow/K-rail median and the absolute minimum shoulders to meet Interstate criteria) plus 2 lanes of TX-style directional frontage road on either side could be done with minimal structure demolition or moving (the saving grace of small towns like this is that buildings tend to be widely spaced and set back from the roadway). Throw in an overpass or two for cross-town access plus making roadside facililties on the opposite side of the freeway accessible from either direction, and a "mini-Texas" situation might be feasible. Preferably, the freeway should be at-grade, with a few slip ramps, for visual purposes -- accompanied by Big Blue Signs with restaurant/refueling/convenience store listings on them. Also ADOT should install EV recharging facilities within the fuel stations (we call 'em "Tesla plugs" around here! -- IMO, this is something that should be a feature of all new "aftermarket" Interstates). Basically, seeing as how Wikieup is the only piece of civilization between Wickenburg and Kingman, it would behoove ADOT planners to maximize localized access here by putting a little thought into how the freeway will interface with what the town needs to remain viable. And if multiple slip ramps mean I-11 speed will reduce to 55 or so through town, that's simply the "cost of doing business" in this instance.
Wikieup is a wide spot in the road with one good souvenir shop/convenience store, two overpriced gas stations across the highway (both of whom charge $1-1.50 per gallon above market price), and a couple of decent restaurants at the north end of town. Most of whatever else used to exist along US 93 has long been abandoned.
There's no way I can see ADOT not routing I-11 on a bypass around what's left of that town (population about 300). I stop there on my way to and from Vegas or Laughlin once or twice a year, and outside of the souvenir shop and a good Chicago-style hot dog stand, the rest is 100% expendable.
Build the bypass and connect the current 93 to it on both sides of town. Upgrading the current 93 through town to interstate standards is just not happening. I'll be shocked if anyone outside of local residents even propose it.
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on December 09, 2020, 03:02:05 PM
About 40 miles to go before all of US 93 in Arizona is widened.
https://azdot.gov/adot-news/us-93-widened-four-lanes-north-wikieup
So what's left? The ramps to I-40, a Wikieup bypass, and the Joshua Tree Pkwy section NW of Wickenburg?
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 10, 2020, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on December 09, 2020, 03:02:05 PM
About 40 miles to go before all of US 93 in Arizona is widened.
https://azdot.gov/adot-news/us-93-widened-four-lanes-north-wikieup
So what's left? The ramps to I-40, a Wikieup bypass, and the Joshua Tree Pkwy section NW of Wickenburg?
And about 3 more miles at Cane Springs, between Wikieup and I-40. https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/2019/08/us-93-corridor-map.pdf
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 10, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Wikieup is a wide spot in the road with one good souvenir shop/convenience store, two overpriced gas stations across the highway (both of whom charge $1-1.50 per gallon above market price), and a couple of decent restaurants at the north end of town. Most of whatever else used to exist along US 93 has long been abandoned.
There's no way I can see ADOT not routing I-11 on a bypass around what's left of that town (population about 300). I stop there on my way to and from Vegas or Laughlin once or twice a year, and outside of the souvenir shop and a good Chicago-style hot dog stand, the rest is 100% expendable.
Build the bypass and connect the current 93 to it on both sides of town. Upgrading the current 93 through town to interstate standards is just not happening. I'll be shocked if anyone outside of local residents even propose it.
To me, a good Chicago-style hot dog stand sounds like, in itself, a good reason to preserve a town otherwise "out in the sticks". Add a couple of decent restaurants and you have a nice place to stop for lunch. But seriously -- maybe I'm sounding a bit overly empathetic here, but I've seen towns without an additional income basis (such as local agriculture or institutions such as small colleges, etc.) wither and die when bypassed because planners deemed them less than worthy (Canyonville and Gold Hill, both off I-5 in southern Oregon, San Miguel on US 101 in CA, etc.). Things like that fan the fires of the anti-mobility crowd like nothing else -- innocent folks trying to eke out a living suddenly being functionally displaced by a facility designed to shoot travelers past them at 75 mph! If I-11 brings a significant overall increase in traffic, potentially the gas stations will be able to lower their prices (and, yeah, I'd consider them to be assholes if they didn't!) with additional sales volume -- so the "vulture" aspect of the town's current status may well dissipate with the coming of the freeway. But I'm sure ADOT will weigh the cost of ROW acquisition for a bypass versus acquiring the front yards of the adjoining in-town properties. But I certainly don't share the viewpoint that a town is, by virtue of a small population and physical "outlier" status, intrinsically expendable. They depend upon US 93 traffic for their livelihood; the "greater good" surely doesn't countenance trashing that for a minute or two of extra driving time if one doesn't make a stop.
Especially if one can get a real Chicago dog there, complete with a Vienna brand sausage, a healthy dose of celery salt, and German-style mustard!
Considering what it costs per mile to build Interstate highways it might potentially be less expensive to build I-11 thru Wikieup on the existing US-93 alignment. A bypass going around Wikieup might add as much as an additional mile to the route. That ain't cheap.
Most of the existing properties in Wikieup are on the West side of US-93. Very few are on the East side. The tightest spot is on the South side of town between the Trading Post Motel and the convenience store on the opposite side of the road. There is about 150' of useable ROW between the two properties. Since a freeway exit would be needed for county road 131 nearby the I-11 main lanes could be elevated on single pier bridge structures. That would allow the main lanes to overhang above frontage roads running underneath. Immediately South of the Trading Post Motel the I-11 main lanes can go back to grade, flanked by frontage roads.
Some properties would have to be bulldozed in this scenario, but a bypass would effectively turn Wikieup into a ghost town. I don't think any of the existing service businesses would survive being bypassed. Overall, the prospect of building I-11 straight thru Wikieup looks like an easier project to complete than the I-69C upgrade of US-281 through the middle of Falfurrias, TX.
Heh, would get Nothing get a exit on I-11 I wonder? What about Santa Claus?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 12, 2020, 12:46:23 PM
Heh, would get Nothing get a exit on I-11 I wonder? What about Santa Claus?
There's nothing left in Nothing but an old sign, a bank of solar panels, and a tall cellphone tower. Even the sign is ready to fall. Probably won't get an exit, but maybe an at-grade private access road.
As far as Santa Claus goes, my guess is that there'll be frontage roads built on each side, with exits at Grasshopper Jct/Chloride (CR 125) and/or Mineral Park Rd. (CR 255).
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 12, 2020, 02:15:06 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 12, 2020, 12:46:23 PM
Heh, would get Nothing get a exit on I-11 I wonder? What about Santa Claus?
There's nothing left in Nothing but an old sign, a bank of solar panels, and a tall cellphone tower. Even the sign is ready to fall. Probably won't get an exit, but maybe an at-grade private access road.
As far as Santa Claus goes, my guess is that there'll be frontage roads built on each side, with exits at Grasshopper Jct/Chloride (CR 125) and/or Mineral Park Rd. (CR 255).
To that end I'm curious what will happen to the value of both properties? My speculation with Nothing is that it will just stay as worthless as it presently is. Santa Claus on the other hand is close enough to a population center that it may finally find a buyer interested in building a service station.
Nothing might be a good site for a rest area. And a Nine Inch Nails memorabilia store (joking). Plenty of rural interstates have exits for rural roads. There is a network of ranch access roads congregating at Nothing. So it might not be out of the question for the site to warrant an exit. Limited access exits will be harder to justify for many other spots along US-93. Some can be handled as RIRO style exits. Others will probably be gated, private gravel driveways entering the freeway main lanes -a less costly solution, but less desirable for a road trying to comply with Interstate standards.
Santa Claus, AZ looks like an easy fix. It looks like there is enough room between the existing main lanes of US-93 to build new freeway main lanes. They can build new main lanes, convert the existing lanes into frontage roads and then build some slip ramps and bridges for crossover access.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 12, 2020, 02:31:48 PM
My speculation with Nothing is that it will just stay as worthless as it presently is.
Nothing is now a T-Mobile site. The 200-foot (if not higher) tower has been there for almost a decade. The old restaurant/bar/whatever is long gone.
Sounds like Nothing lives up to its name. That said, I can see the reason for an exit, and personally, I think it would be fun to have a sign that said "Nothing - exit XX".
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 12, 2020, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 12, 2020, 02:31:48 PM
My speculation with Nothing is that it will just stay as worthless as it presently is.
Nothing is now a T-Mobile site. The 200-foot (if not higher) tower has been there for almost a decade. The old restaurant/bar/whatever is long gone.
All-Mart and a Rock Shop was what was there. The All-Mart building used to boast a population of 4. I haven't been there since 2012 so that's news that a cell tower (one that was really needed) is now there.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2020, 12:21:26 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 12, 2020, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 12, 2020, 02:31:48 PM
My speculation with Nothing is that it will just stay as worthless as it presently is.
Nothing is now a T-Mobile site. The 200-foot (if not higher) tower has been there for almost a decade. The old restaurant/bar/whatever is long gone.
All-Mart and a Rock Shop was what was there. The All-Mart building used to boast a population of 4. I haven't been there since 2012 so that's news that a cell tower (one that was really needed) is now there.
Upon further review, I'll estimate that the cell tower was built around 2014 or '15. In any case, since it was built, cell service in Wikieup and along 93 has been far better.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 13, 2020, 12:44:11 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2020, 12:21:26 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 12, 2020, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 12, 2020, 02:31:48 PM
My speculation with Nothing is that it will just stay as worthless as it presently is.
Nothing is now a T-Mobile site. The 200-foot (if not higher) tower has been there for almost a decade. The old restaurant/bar/whatever is long gone.
All-Mart and a Rock Shop was what was there. The All-Mart building used to boast a population of 4. I haven't been there since 2012 so that's news that a cell tower (one that was really needed) is now there.
Upon further review, I'll estimate that the cell tower was built around 2014 or '15. In any case, since it was built, cell service in Wikieup and along 93 has been far better.
That's reassuring to hear; if the COVID situation improves by either the spring or fall of '21 (
not going to the PHX area in summer!), I've got a road trip planned to visit an old buddy who moved to Chandler from SoCal a year or so ago, and plan on a return trip up the projected path of I-11 all the way to I-80. As long as there's AT&T coverage for most of the way, it's all good.
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
Quote from: splashflash on March 10, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
This is great news indeed!
Quote from: splashflash on March 10, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
This should be interstate quality. Why is AZDOT dropping the ball on this when they know it is already in need of becoming I-11?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 12, 2021, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: splashflash on March 10, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
This should be interstate quality. Why is AZDOT dropping the ball on this when they know it is already in need of becoming I-11?
IIRC, regardless of its final alignment, I-11 is supposed to connect to the current US 93 north of the 93/89 junction. The section of 93 in question was never going to be upgraded to an interstate.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 12, 2021, 05:30:00 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 12, 2021, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: splashflash on March 10, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
This should be interstate quality. Why is AZDOT dropping the ball on this when they know it is already in need of becoming I-11?
IIRC, regardless of its final alignment, I-11 is supposed to connect to the current US 93 north of the 93/89 junction. The section of 93 in question was never going to be upgraded to an interstate.
Okay for some reason I thought it was going to be a bypass of Wickenburg.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 12, 2021, 05:30:00 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 12, 2021, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: splashflash on March 10, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
This should be interstate quality. Why is AZDOT dropping the ball on this when they know it is already in need of becoming I-11?
IIRC, regardless of its final alignment, I-11 is supposed to connect to the current US 93 north of the 93/89 junction. The section of 93 in question was never going to be upgraded to an interstate.
Why so far? The logical place for I-11 to meet I-10 given Arizona's general goals (pork barrel developer giveaway aside) is at AZ 85 and to take that down to I-8 (personally, I'd take it to AZ 303 and then down AZ 303 to I-10; I'd make the remainder a 3di for the purposes of system connectivity to I-17). That would suggest a divergence point well south of there. The purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix and Las Vegas, no?
Quote from: vdeane on March 12, 2021, 10:50:36 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 12, 2021, 05:30:00 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 12, 2021, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: splashflash on March 10, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Upgrades for US93 to be four lanes and roundabouts at the Tegner gap near Wickenburg
https://wickenburgsun.com/news/8159/adot-restores-us-93-widening-project/
This should be interstate quality. Why is AZDOT dropping the ball on this when they know it is already in need of becoming I-11?
IIRC, regardless of its final alignment, I-11 is supposed to connect to the current US 93 north of the 93/89 junction. The section of 93 in question was never going to be upgraded to an interstate.
Why so far? The logical place for I-11 to meet I-10 given Arizona's general goals (pork barrel developer giveaway aside) is at AZ 85 and to take that down to I-8 (personally, I'd take it to AZ 303 and then down AZ 303 to I-10; I'd make the remainder a 3di for the purposes of system connectivity to I-17). That would suggest a divergence point well south of there. The purpose of I-11 is to connect Phoenix and Las Vegas, no?
In a perfect world, the Loop 303-to-I-10 option would prevail; a "quasi-perfect" solution would still retain the Hassayampa option but shunt over to AZ 85 for the southernmost segment. But this is AZ, which is, to the dismay of some, still rapidly growing, so developers capable of churning cash (some of which lines political pockets) are still pushing for something at least as far south as Casa Grande so they can double down on housing and commercial property in the Maricopa area (and a diagonal I-11 through that area
would make for an enticing I-10 bypass!). So despite the cost differences of the options that take advantage of existing alignments, the big southwest I-11 arc remains the locally favored routing.
Maybe Interstate 11 could be shunted south of Wickenburg, to make a direct connection with AZ 85 at Interstate 10. From there, Interstate 11 would follow existing AZ 85 along all the to Gila Bend where it would terminate at a freeway-to-freeway interchange at Interstate 8 between Exits 115 and 119. To me, that would be a much more logical terminus for Interstate 11 then sending it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Maybe Interstate 11 could then be extended to the Mexican border near Lukeville, though the existing traffic counts along AZ 85, and the terrain such a freeway would go through would likely make that proposal impractical.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 13, 2021, 12:50:15 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could be shunted south of Wickenburg, to make a direct connection with AZ 85 at Interstate 10. From there, Interstate 11 would follow existing AZ 85 along all the to Gila Bend where it would terminate at a freeway-to-freeway interchange at Interstate 8 between Exits 115 and 119. To me, that would be a much more logical terminus for Interstate 11 then sending it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Maybe Interstate 11 could then be extended to the Mexican border near Lukeville, though the existing traffic counts along AZ 85, and the terrain such a freeway would go through would likely make that proposal impractical.
That makes much more sense than anything else I've read. There is no need whatsoever for I-11 to exist south of I-8. It also doesn't need to be routed into the Phoenix city limits to be a "Phoenix-to-Las Vegas" route. Most people are smart enough to take I-10 west out of Phoenix, then hop on I-11 to get to Vegas.
Neither does it need to go to Tucson and Nogales. We have I-10 and 19 for that. A 4-lane upgrade to AZ 85 between Gila Bend and Lukeville would suffice to take care of traffic to and from Rocky Point.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 13, 2021, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 13, 2021, 12:50:15 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could be shunted south of Wickenburg, to make a direct connection with AZ 85 at Interstate 10. From there, Interstate 11 would follow existing AZ 85 along all the to Gila Bend where it would terminate at a freeway-to-freeway interchange at Interstate 8 between Exits 115 and 119. To me, that would be a much more logical terminus for Interstate 11 then sending it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Maybe Interstate 11 could then be extended to the Mexican border near Lukeville, though the existing traffic counts along AZ 85, and the terrain such a freeway would go through would likely make that proposal impractical.
That makes much more sense than anything else I've read. There is no need whatsoever for I-11 to exist south of I-8. It also doesn't need to be routed into the Phoenix city limits to be a "Phoenix-to-Las Vegas" route. Most people are smart enough to take I-10 west out of Phoenix, then hop on I-11 to get to Vegas.
Neither does it need to go to Tucson and Nogales. We have I-10 and 19 for that. A 4-lane upgrade to AZ 85 between Gila Bend and Lukeville would suffice to take care of traffic to and from Rocky Point.
The Tucson/Nogales extension, which would pass several miles west of the present Tucson developmental area, is more of an attempt by regional developers to circumvent Tucson's relatively (by AZ standards) tight land-use policies by providing an additional freeway/artery around which to place their residential and commercial properties out past Tucson Estates. There is no massive rush from Mexico's
maquiladores to U.S. distributors; China and the rest of Eastern Asia have overwhelmed
that concept, so the notion of providing more lanes down to Nogales can be chalked up to speculation. If the concept of I-11 as a through-traffic alternative to I-10 through greater PHX can be sold in the next 20 years or so, then that's what'll happen down to the vicinity of the I-8/I-10 junction. Otherwise, saving money by running I-11 down to either Loop 303 out around Surprise or straight down the Hassayampa to I-10 and thence down AZ 85 to Gila Bend/I-8 would be doable options requiring considerably less property acquisition and new-terrain construction.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 13, 2021, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 13, 2021, 12:50:15 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could be shunted south of Wickenburg, to make a direct connection with AZ 85 at Interstate 10. From there, Interstate 11 would follow existing AZ 85 along all the to Gila Bend where it would terminate at a freeway-to-freeway interchange at Interstate 8 between Exits 115 and 119. To me, that would be a much more logical terminus for Interstate 11 then sending it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Maybe Interstate 11 could then be extended to the Mexican border near Lukeville, though the existing traffic counts along AZ 85, and the terrain such a freeway would go through would likely make that proposal impractical.
That makes much more sense than anything else I've read. There is no need whatsoever for I-11 to exist south of I-8. It also doesn't need to be routed into the Phoenix city limits to be a "Phoenix-to-Las Vegas" route. Most people are smart enough to take I-10 west out of Phoenix, then hop on I-11 to get to Vegas.
Neither does it need to go to Tucson and Nogales. We have I-10 and 19 for that. A 4-lane upgrade to AZ 85 between Gila Bend and Lukeville would suffice to take care of traffic to and from Rocky Point.
I prefer that people not have to go out of their way on I-10 to get to I-11, but at least the AZ 85 option would provide a bypass of Phoenix for through traffic. Both of those are far better than the actual plan of building a duplicate parallel freeway and then replacing I-19 (especially now that they're able to widen I-10). I-19 is fine as-is. If it's going to be replaced with anything, it should be I-17, because at least then I-17's exit numbers would at least have some semblance of sense.
Quote from: vdeane on March 13, 2021, 11:37:21 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 13, 2021, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 13, 2021, 12:50:15 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could be shunted south of Wickenburg, to make a direct connection with AZ 85 at Interstate 10. From there, Interstate 11 would follow existing AZ 85 along all the to Gila Bend where it would terminate at a freeway-to-freeway interchange at Interstate 8 between Exits 115 and 119. To me, that would be a much more logical terminus for Interstate 11 then sending it to Tucson, let alone Nogales. Maybe Interstate 11 could then be extended to the Mexican border near Lukeville, though the existing traffic counts along AZ 85, and the terrain such a freeway would go through would likely make that proposal impractical.
That makes much more sense than anything else I've read. There is no need whatsoever for I-11 to exist south of I-8. It also doesn't need to be routed into the Phoenix city limits to be a "Phoenix-to-Las Vegas" route. Most people are smart enough to take I-10 west out of Phoenix, then hop on I-11 to get to Vegas.
Neither does it need to go to Tucson and Nogales. We have I-10 and 19 for that. A 4-lane upgrade to AZ 85 between Gila Bend and Lukeville would suffice to take care of traffic to and from Rocky Point.
I prefer that people not have to go out of their way on I-10 to get to I-11, but at least the AZ 85 option would provide a bypass of Phoenix for through traffic. Both of those are far better than the actual plan of building a duplicate parallel freeway and then replacing I-19 (especially now that they're able to widen I-10). I-19 is fine as-is. If it's going to be replaced with anything, it should be I-17, because at least then I-17's exit numbers would at least have some semblance of sense.
Thing is, you can make that AZ 85 Phoenix bypass without involving I-11. AZ 85 is already there, it's already a four-lane road, all you need is a direct connection to I-8 and remove the stoplights near I-10. As a bonus, you could extend AZ 85 up to Wickenburg by way of Aguila Road and Vulture Mine Road, both of which are already paved roads that wouldn't need much improvement to state route quality.
Connecting I-11 to I-10 out in Tonopah just adds inconvenience and unnecessary miles to the Phoenix-Vegas trip, and for those that live in the northern half of the Valley, at that point it's just better to use existing US-60, and now that stretch of I-11 between Wickenburg and I-10 is completely pointless.
The purpose of Interstate 11 is to connect the cities of Phoenix, Arizona and Las Vegas, Nevada. Period. End of discussion.I will die on this hill if I have to.
While an Interstate 11 from Las Vegas to Phoenix would probably be long enough, others seem to have different ideas for a longer Interstate 11. Whether or not they succeed remains to be seen.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 29, 2021, 10:08:47 PM
While an Interstate 11 from Las Vegas to Phoenix would probably be long enough, others seem to have different ideas for a longer Interstate 11. Whether or not they succeed remains to be seen.
The legal definition of the I-11 corridor extends north to I-80 in northern NV (in one of the more vague specifications of actual location in corridor authorizing legislation); south is another matter due to the machinations of S. AZ developers, who have somewhat grandiose pretensions. it remains to be seen how all that shakes out -- and who is willing to bear the cost of duplicative corridors benefiting a few well-heeled and well-placed folks!
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 29, 2021, 10:08:47 PM
While an Interstate 11 from Las Vegas to Phoenix would probably be long enough, others seem to have different ideas for a longer Interstate 11. Whether or not they succeed remains to be seen.
None of the proposed alignments bring I-11 into the city of Phoenix. It's not necessary, and it will not happen. It won't go any further east than the current Loop 303. Most of the proposals involve the Hassayampa Freeway.
And I'll be absolutely shocked if it ever is built south of I-8. Pima County/Tucson is completely anti-freeway.
https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html (https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html)
Here is a link to the map location of a late-2017 alignment selection report. Alignment W follows US 93 southwest beyond Wickenburg, continues along US60 to Morristown and then heads straight south where it links to the North Sun Valley Parkway. There was resistance to this alignment because of its going through Wickenburg and proximity to the Hassayampa River which hugs US60.
Wickenburg wanted I-11 quite close, but not without some bypass.
Quote from: splashflash on March 30, 2021, 04:05:11 PM
https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html (https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html)
Here is a link to the map location of a late-2017 alignment selection report. Alignment W follows US 93 southwest beyond Wickenburg, continues along US60 to Morristown and then heads straight south where it links to the North Sun Valley Parkway. There was resistance to this alignment because of its going through Wickenburg and proximity to the Hassayampa River which hugs US60.
Wickenburg wanted I-11 quite close, but not without some bypass.
Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall. Don't subscribe, and you get today's front page.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on March 30, 2021, 09:23:24 PM
Quote from: splashflash on March 30, 2021, 04:05:11 PM
https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html (https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html)
Here is a link to the map location of a late-2017 alignment selection report. Alignment W follows US 93 southwest beyond Wickenburg, continues along US60 to Morristown and then heads straight south where it links to the North Sun Valley Parkway. There was resistance to this alignment because of its going through Wickenburg and proximity to the Hassayampa River which hugs US60.
Wickenburg wanted I-11 quite close, but not without some bypass.
Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall. Don't subscribe, and you get today's front page.
We're lucky then the Wayback Machine saved that article. http://web.archive.org/web/20201009162132/https://www.pinalcentral.com/casa_grande_dispatch/area_news/adot-releases-report-on-possible-routes-for-i-11/article_f15f5655-9e25-5224-8b54-ddd1007815dd.html
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 10, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Wikieup is a wide spot in the road with one good souvenir shop/convenience store, two overpriced gas stations across the highway (both of whom charge $1-1.50 per gallon above market price), and a couple of decent restaurants at the north end of town. Most of whatever else used to exist along US 93 has long been abandoned.
There's no way I can see ADOT not routing I-11 on a bypass around what's left of that town (population about 300). I stop there on my way to and from Vegas or Laughlin once or twice a year, and outside of the souvenir shop and a good Chicago-style hot dog stand, the rest is 100% expendable.
Build the bypass and connect the current 93 to it on both sides of town. Upgrading the current 93 through town to interstate standards is just not happening. I'll be shocked if anyone outside of local residents even propose it.
Now there's one less reason to drive through Wikieup, and it is - or now was -- the biggest reason. The Wikieup Trading Post (the souvenir shop/convenience store mentioned above) burned to the ground early this morning. A total loss. At least nobody was hurt.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 24, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 10, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Wikieup is a wide spot in the road with one good souvenir shop/convenience store, two overpriced gas stations across the highway (both of whom charge $1-1.50 per gallon above market price), and a couple of decent restaurants at the north end of town. Most of whatever else used to exist along US 93 has long been abandoned.
There's no way I can see ADOT not routing I-11 on a bypass around what's left of that town (population about 300). I stop there on my way to and from Vegas or Laughlin once or twice a year, and outside of the souvenir shop and a good Chicago-style hot dog stand, the rest is 100% expendable.
Build the bypass and connect the current 93 to it on both sides of town. Upgrading the current 93 through town to interstate standards is just not happening. I'll be shocked if anyone outside of local residents even propose it.
Now there's one less reason to drive through Wikieup, and it is - or now was -- the biggest reason. The Wikieup Trading Post (the souvenir shop/convenience store mentioned above) burned to the ground early this morning. A total loss. At least nobody was hurt.
Opportunity for the Nothing Rock Shop to reopen and fill the void? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 24, 2021, 07:35:11 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 24, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 10, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Wikieup is a wide spot in the road with one good souvenir shop/convenience store, two overpriced gas stations across the highway (both of whom charge $1-1.50 per gallon above market price), and a couple of decent restaurants at the north end of town. Most of whatever else used to exist along US 93 has long been abandoned.
There's no way I can see ADOT not routing I-11 on a bypass around what's left of that town (population about 300). I stop there on my way to and from Vegas or Laughlin once or twice a year, and outside of the souvenir shop and a good Chicago-style hot dog stand, the rest is 100% expendable.
Build the bypass and connect the current 93 to it on both sides of town. Upgrading the current 93 through town to interstate standards is just not happening. I'll be shocked if anyone outside of local residents even propose it.
Now there's one less reason to drive through Wikieup, and it is - or now was -- the biggest reason. The Wikieup Trading Post (the souvenir shop/convenience store mentioned above) burned to the ground early this morning. A total loss. At least nobody was hurt.
Opportunity for the Nothing Rock Shop to reopen and fill the void? :rolleyes:
Or -- the owners of the Trading Post simply collect the insurance (hopefully it was at least adequate), sit on it for a bit, and rebuild wherever I-11 ends up -- either through town or on a bypass.
Quote from: sparker on May 24, 2021, 07:51:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 24, 2021, 07:35:11 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 24, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 10, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Wikieup is a wide spot in the road with one good souvenir shop/convenience store, two overpriced gas stations across the highway (both of whom charge $1-1.50 per gallon above market price), and a couple of decent restaurants at the north end of town. Most of whatever else used to exist along US 93 has long been abandoned.
There's no way I can see ADOT not routing I-11 on a bypass around what's left of that town (population about 300). I stop there on my way to and from Vegas or Laughlin once or twice a year, and outside of the souvenir shop and a good Chicago-style hot dog stand, the rest is 100% expendable.
Build the bypass and connect the current 93 to it on both sides of town. Upgrading the current 93 through town to interstate standards is just not happening. I'll be shocked if anyone outside of local residents even propose it.
Now there's one less reason to drive through Wikieup, and it is - or now was -- the biggest reason. The Wikieup Trading Post (the souvenir shop/convenience store mentioned above) burned to the ground early this morning. A total loss. At least nobody was hurt.
Opportunity for the Nothing Rock Shop to reopen and fill the void? :rolleyes:
Or -- the owners of the Trading Post simply collect the insurance (hopefully it was at least adequate), sit on it for a bit, and rebuild wherever I-11 ends up -- either through town or on a bypass.
The reason we found out about it is that we know the owner, and she sent a text with a picture of the devastation to my girlfriend first thing this morning. She has no idea what she'll do now, but has requested us to not contact her until she gets her bearings as to what she can and cannot do. We are going to respect her request. I'm sure the freeway routing has a lot to do with her future plans.
There has been no news coverage, either in Phoenix or Kingman media, of the fire. Facebook pictures (the only coverage there's been) show what is left. I cannot put those pictures here without permission of the owners.
There is, AFAIK, no fire station in Wikieup, either. At least the gas tanks didn't explode.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 24, 2021, 10:34:56 PM
At least the gas tanks didn't explode.
Update: Was up that way this week. The trading post is rubble, but the Union 76 gas station is being rebuilt. Not yet open, though.
Big problem: US 93 is completely closed from I-40 to SR 71. One wreck just south of I-40, and another on the two-lane section northwest of Wickenburg.
The only ways to get between Phoenix and Las Vegas today are I-17 or SR 89 north to I-40 west, or I-10 west (or US 60 west to I-10, if already in or near Wickenburg) to US 95 north.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 10, 2021, 03:28:36 PM
Big problem: US 93 is completely closed from I-40 to SR 71. One wreck just south of I-40, and another on the two-lane section northwest of Wickenburg.
The only ways to get between Phoenix and Las Vegas today are I-17 or SR 89 north to I-40 west, or I-10 west (or US 60 west to I-10, if already in or near Wickenburg) to US 95 north.
Or via Southwest! :-/ Seriously, the 4-laning of this corridor can't come soon enough, with or without I-11!
Quote from: sparker on July 10, 2021, 06:29:36 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 10, 2021, 03:28:36 PM
Big problem: US 93 is completely closed from I-40 to SR 71. One wreck just south of I-40, and another on the two-lane section northwest of Wickenburg.
The only ways to get between Phoenix and Las Vegas today are I-17 or SR 89 north to I-40 west, or I-10 west (or US 60 west to I-10, if already in or near Wickenburg) to US 95 north.
Or via Southwest! :-/ Seriously, the 4-laning of this corridor can't come soon enough, with or without I-11!
This seems to be acknowledged in the latest 5 year plan but omits the Cane Springs widening and any widening work between SR 89 and SR 71. The Tegner to SR89 Gap project remains intact but is almost completed paid by Maricopa County, isn't it? At least the Kingman interchange is there.
From the list:
Kabba Wash Bridge
Project Limits US 93 Bridge 492 milepost 97.5 to 98.5 (1 mile)
Description Design/Construct Bridge Rehabilitation
$4M
Project Name Sycamore Creek Bridge NB, Gray Wash Bridge
Route US 93
Project Limits US 93 Bridge 640 milepost 127.63 to 128.63 (1 mile), US 93 Bridge 641 milepost 128.63 to 129.63 (1 mile)
Bridge Rehabilitation
$1.1M
Project Name S of Nothing - S of Jct SR-97
Route US 93
Project Limits US 93 from S of Nothing to Jct SR-97 milepost 144 to 156 (12 mile)
Description Pavement Rehabilitation
$27 million
Project Name MP 160-180.6, Wickieup
Route US 93
Project Limits US 93 milepost 160 to 180.6 (20.6 mile)
Description Center line rumble strips
$361K
Project Name Tegner St - Wickenburg Ranch Way
Route US 93
Project Limits US 93 from Tenger Street to SR-89 milepost 193 to 198 (5 mile)
Description US93: Tegner Street - SR89 "The Gap": Construct Divided Highway Local ID: DOT18-707 & DOT20-724
$54,981,000
Project Name US-93/I-40 West Kingman TI
Route I 40
Project LimitsInterchange on I 40 at I-40 West Kingman and US-93
Description Right of Way, Design, and Construct TI
$84 million
https://www.abc15.com/traffic/deadly-gamble-update-adot-to-make-us-93-safety-improvements
https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/media/2021/03/2022-2026-tentative-5yr-plan.pdf
Article about applying for federal funding to advance these projects.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/AZDOT/bulletins/31965f1?fbclid=IwAR0W_Eenip9O-1m6ljmRfmklIH6rgaQU4g4IzyKoIq60r47CouCoen1-No4
They could also focus on this instead of wasting time planning for I-11 south of Phoenix but you know do your thing ADOT.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 26, 2022, 01:30:43 AM
Article about applying for federal funding to advance these projects.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/AZDOT/bulletins/31965f1?fbclid=IwAR0W_Eenip9O-1m6ljmRfmklIH6rgaQU4g4IzyKoIq60r47CouCoen1-No4
They could also focus on this instead of wasting time planning for I-11 south of Phoenix but you know do your thing ADOT.
Glad to hear. it almost seems like the US 93 projects have all stalled out since the last segment opened north of Wikieup about 2 years ago. The "Gap" project widening through Wickenburg still hasn't started as of last week still.
The Big Jim Wash section is the most urgent in my opinion. Heading north it's not a big deal, but heading south it's where the road narrows from four lanes to two, and there's a fairly steep incline heading SB and no passing lanes for several miles. Most trucks slow down to about 50 here to make the incline and traffic really backs up fast and you see some dangerous passing happening as well.
If only the FHWA had a Fictional Roads section to force these state DOTs into...
Upgrading US 93 will likely be a long, slow process. Even longer for a US 93-to-Interstate 11 conversion. Also, I think the interchange at AZ 71 should receive an exit number (as either Exit 182 or 183).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 01, 2022, 10:19:20 PM
Upgrading US 93 will likely be a long, slow process. Even longer for a US 93-to-Interstate 11 conversion.
Actually, most of it is done. The biggest hassles now are the ramps at I-40 and through the 25 mile stretch of the Joshua Tree Highway of Death northwest of Wickenburg. Interchanges at AZ 89 and AZ 97 also need to be constructed to bring the highway closer to Interstate status, but neither is a priority.
It's not out of the question that I-11 south of I-40 will never see the light of day. It could "demoted" back to AZ 93 since US 93 will end in Las Vegas once I-11 between Kingman and Nevada is built/upgraded. That, at least, will happen.
QuoteAlso, I think the interchange at AZ 71 should receive an exit number (as either Exit 182 or 183).
That would happen only when 93 becomes a full Interstate.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on June 01, 2022, 11:39:29 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 01, 2022, 10:19:20 PM
Upgrading US 93 will likely be a long, slow process. Even longer for a US 93-to-Interstate 11 conversion.
Actually, most of it is done. The biggest hassles now are the ramps at I-40 and through the 25 mile stretch of the Joshua Tree Highway of Death northwest of Wickenburg. Interchanges at AZ 89 and AZ 97 also need to be constructed to bring the highway closer to Interstate status, but neither is a priority.
It's not out of the question that I-11 south of I-40 will never see the light of day. It could "demoted" back to AZ 93 since US 93 will end in Las Vegas once I-11 between Kingman and Nevada is built/upgraded. That, at least, will happen.
QuoteAlso, I think the interchange at AZ 71 should receive an exit number (as either Exit 182 or 183).
That would happen only when 93 becomes a full Interstate.
ADOT numbers other exits on non-freeway interchanges.
On AZ 87 Bush Highway is numbered exit 199
On US 60 the interchange for AZ 79 is numbered exit 212 (and US 60 isn't a freeway in the area). Not to mention all of the interchanges along Grand Ave. have numbers even though Grand Ave. isn't a freeway
On US 93 the interchange for AZ 68 is numbered exit 67
On US 89A the partial diamond interchange for McConnell Dr is exit 341 (which is an I-17 number even though the highway isn't I-17 at this point)
Virtual public meeting for Kingman Interchange
Jan 25 6pm
https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40-us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange-project/virtual
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on June 01, 2022, 11:39:29 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 01, 2022, 10:19:20 PM
Upgrading US 93 will likely be a long, slow process. Even longer for a US 93-to-Interstate 11 conversion.
Actually, most of it is done. The biggest hassles now are the ramps at I-40 and through the 25 mile stretch of the Joshua Tree Highway of Death northwest of Wickenburg. Interchanges at AZ 89 and AZ 97 also need to be constructed to bring the highway closer to Interstate status, but neither is a priority.
It's not out of the question that I-11 south of I-40 will never see the light of day. It could "demoted" back to AZ 93 since US 93 will end in Las Vegas once I-11 between Kingman and Nevada is built/upgraded. That, at least, will happen.
QuoteAlso, I think the interchange at AZ 71 should receive an exit number (as either Exit 182 or 183).
That would happen only when 93 becomes a full Interstate.
Well, it's already a given that I-11 will never enter Phoenix proper, so I can see the remaining parts that will be untouched by the Interstate become AZ 93. Although I still think they should keep it US 93, especially since the conversion may not be finished for a very long time.
Quote from: Henry on January 24, 2023, 10:27:47 AM
Well, it's already a given that I-11 will never enter Phoenix proper, so I can see the remaining parts that will be untouched by the Interstate become AZ 93. Although I still think they should keep it US 93, especially since the conversion may not be finished for a very long time.
Well, US 93 doesn't get to Phoenix, either. It ends in Wickenburg. :-P So there won't be any untouched parts left other than maybe a small stub in Wickenburg itself if a bypass is built around that town.
Quote from: splashflash on January 24, 2023, 06:37:52 AM
Virtual public meeting for Kingman Interchange
Jan 25 6pm
https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40-us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange-project/virtual
Shouldn't this be a full directional interchange for when US 93 is upgraded to interstate standards?
There are various existing interstates that only have partial interchanges. One example is the I-95 at the PA Turnpike that opened a few years ago. I-95/I-276/I-295.
Also, not only does ADOT have exit numbers for some random non-interstate highways, but many of them (if not most of them) happen to be mileage-based.
If I recall correctly ADOT is buying up enough ROW for the I-11/I-40 interchange in Kingman to be able to build a full Y interchange. They're just going to build the initial configuration with 2 ramps between I-11 & I-40 (SB I-11 to EB-I-40 & WB I-40 to NB I-11).
Over time they'll be able to add the second pair of ramps some time in the future. It's certainly not optimal to force EB I-40 traffic heading for NB I-11 to go thru a short "Breezewood" via US-93 to get there. But not nearly as many vehicles will be taking that movement compared to the number of vehicles traveling between the Vegas and Phoenix regions.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 24, 2023, 04:59:52 PM
If I recall correctly ADOT is buying up enough ROW for the I-11/I-40 interchange in Kingman to be able to build a full Y interchange. They're just going to build the initial configuration with 2 ramps between I-11 & I-40 (SB I-11 to EB-I-40 & WB I-40 to NB I-11).
Over time they'll be able to add the second pair of ramps some time in the future. It's certainly not optimal to force EB I-40 traffic heading for NB I-11 to go thru a short "Breezewood" via US-93 to get there. But not nearly as many vehicles will be taking that movement compared to the number of vehicles traveling between the Vegas and Phoenix regions.
I would think that most of the traffic coming from Barstow and points south and west of there would take I-15 to Vegas or get off of I-40 at US 95 to get to Laughlin.
There are other towns and locations directly South of Kingman that can have traffic heading to/from Las Vegas. There's Lake Havasu City, Parker and various other little resorts spots along AZ-95. Over the long term it's possible the Kingman area could add population as well.
ADOT likely purchased the extra ROW needed for a full Y interchange just in case.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 24, 2023, 07:58:03 PM
There are other towns and locations directly South of Kingman that can have traffic heading to/from Las Vegas. There's Lake Havasu City, Parker and various other little resorts spots along AZ-95. Over the long term it's possible the Kingman area could add population as well.
ADOT likely purchased the extra ROW needed for a full Y interchange just in case.
The 2 "missing" ramps (EB 40 to NB 93 & SB 93 to WB 40) are to be built in "Phase II" of the West Kingman Interchange project, which has an indeterminate starting date due to lack of funding and (alleged) low traffic volume. I'm sure that the final design of Phase I takes the origin/terminus points of those future ramps into consideration though. If you view the simulated flyover video shown at the recent Public Meeting (tab on the project website), you can kinda see where those points will someday be located along the new terrain US 93 roadway.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 24, 2023, 07:58:03 PM
There are other towns and locations directly South of Kingman that can have traffic heading to/from Las Vegas. There's Lake Havasu City, Parker and various other little resorts spots along AZ-95. [/i]
It's 12 miles shorter and slightly faster for them to go to Vegas via Needles rather than Kingman.
Quote from: armadillo speedbumpIt's 12 miles shorter and slightly faster for them to go to Vegas via Needles rather than Kingman.
People driving from Lake Havasu or Parker up to Vegas might save a few miles going by way of Needles and US-95. But here's a couple important points:
Gasoline in that part of Arizona is quite a bit less expensive than it is on California's side of the Colorado River. And fuel prices in NW AZ are still less than the prices in Southern Nevada.
All of existing US-93 between Kingman and the Hoover Dam is 4-lane divided. And there is at least a plan for all of that to be upgraded to Interstate standards. US-95 from Needles up to the I-11 junction is a mix of 2-lane, 4-lane divided and 4-lane not-divided.
Don't forget to mention the need for expensive direct connectors because of once a year military movements and the obligatory, "It will help with hurricane evacuations!"
They're at least going to have the land available to make the I-11/I-40 interchange in Kingman a complete "Y" interchange.
I wouldn't think hurricane evacuation routes would be important for NW AZ. When I was a kid my dad was stationed at MCAS Yuma; we were close enough to the Gulf of California that we experienced tropical storm force winds a couple times via hurricanes coming ashore in Baja California and moving into Arizona. Still, it wasn't all that big a deal compared to other far more hurricane-prone places we lived.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 21, 2023, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: armadillo speedbumpIt's 12 miles shorter and slightly faster for them to go to Vegas via Needles rather than Kingman.
People driving from Lake Havasu or Parker up to Vegas might save a few miles going by way of Needles and US-95. But here's a couple important points:
Gasoline in that part of Arizona is quite a bit less expensive than it is on California's side of the Colorado River. And fuel prices in NW AZ are still less than the prices in Southern Nevada.
All of existing US-93 between Kingman and the Hoover Dam is 4-lane divided. And there is at least a plan for all of that to be upgraded to Interstate standards. US-95 from Needles up to the I-11 junction is a mix of 2-lane, 4-lane divided and 4-lane not-divided.
Historically, almost all the traffic between Havasu and Vegas uses I-40 and 95. All but 25 miles of that stretch are 4-lanes and the rural speed limit north of NV 163 is 75 mph. Through traffic is going to stick to the west side of the river, methinks.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 21, 2023, 07:12:04 PM
They're at least going to have the land available to make the I-11/I-40 interchange in Kingman a complete "Y" interchange.
I wouldn't think hurricane evacuation routes would be important for NW AZ. When I was a kid my dad was stationed at MCAS Yuma; we were close enough to the Gulf of California that we experienced tropical storm force winds a couple times via hurricanes coming ashore in Baja California and moving into Arizona. Still, it wasn't all that big a deal compared to other far more hurricane-prone places we lived.
Yeah, hurricane evacuation is a non-issue in the southwest. In all of recorded history, only two storms have ever impacted Arizona with tropical storm force winds: Joanne 1972 and Nora 1997. More common is tropical remnants and moisture getting caught up in the monsoon flow, which happens several times a decade and often results in lots of severe thunderstorms and flash flooding across the southwest.
Quote from: US 89 on March 05, 2023, 01:07:42 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 21, 2023, 07:12:04 PM
I wouldn't think hurricane evacuation routes would be important for NW AZ.
Yeah, hurricane evacuation is a non-issue in the southwest.
It was heavy sarcasm.
In the Texas section, a lot of arguments for proposed half useless or unneeded upgrades to freeways usually and predictably devolve into desperate cut-n-paste, "But we MUST!!! build it for hurricane evacuations (250 miles inland?)/military needs (saving 15 minutes once a year?)/mythical truck corridors like Calgary-BFE-Mexico Muh NAFTA (what's the actual demand numbers?)/SaFeTy!!!"
The "Gap" widening project through Wickenburg is finally well underway. At least the southern portion of it is under construction from the northern end of the Wickenburg Interim Bypass to the Wickenburg Ranch roundabout. I believe the northern part won't start until after the southern segment is finished.
Quote from: kdk on June 23, 2023, 05:29:05 PM
The "Gap" widening project through Wickenburg is finally well underway. At least the southern portion of it is under construction from the northern end of the Wickenburg Interim Bypass to the Wickenburg Ranch roundabout. I believe the northern part won't start until after the southern segment is finished.
It's odd that they didn't include another paltry 0.7 miles up to 89 in this project, since that's where the traffic splits.
And I wonder if, when they get around to the remaining 32 miles or so, it will be 4-lane expressway, necessitating a later upgrade to Interstate freeway standards, or if they'll make it freeway right away. Doesn't look like a lot of driveways out there.
I wonder if US 93 from Interstate 40 to Wickenburg will ever become a freeway, since there is basically nothing (no pun intended) along the corridor until one reaches Wickenburg. Except for a "mini" bypass around Wikieup, most of US 93 could be upgraded on-alignment.
Quote from: pderocco on June 28, 2023, 11:56:46 PM
Quote from: kdk on June 23, 2023, 05:29:05 PM
The "Gap" widening project through Wickenburg is finally well underway. At least the southern portion of it is under construction from the northern end of the Wickenburg Interim Bypass to the Wickenburg Ranch roundabout. I believe the northern part won't start until after the southern segment is finished.
It's odd that they didn't include another paltry 0.7 miles up to 89 in this project, since that's where the traffic splits.
And I wonder if, when they get around to the remaining 32 miles or so, it will be 4-lane expressway, necessitating a later upgrade to Interstate freeway standards, or if they'll make it freeway right away. Doesn't look like a lot of driveways out there.
I mentioned in an another thread (can't locate it right now) that ADOT is putting out bids for a DCR/Environmental Assessment for the extension of US 93/I-11 from the current end of the four-lane north of SR 89 down to I-10, which would run right through the western part of the future Teravalis development. Once that DCR/EA is finished in about two years, it could very likely end up suggesting that the current routing of US 93 from Tegner St to current SR 89 will end up being an extension of SR 89, and that the only norhtbound connection to new US 93/I-11 will be using SR 89 and SR 71.
Quote from: brad2971 on June 29, 2023, 07:38:32 PM
I mentioned in an another thread (can't locate it right now) that ADOT is putting out bids for a DCR/Environmental Assessment for the extension of US 93/I-11 from the current end of the four-lane north of SR 89 down to I-10, which would run right through the western part of the future Teravalis development. Once that DCR/EA is finished in about two years, it could very likely end up suggesting that the current routing of US 93 from Tegner St to current SR 89 will end up being an extension of SR 89, and that the only norhtbound connection to new US 93/I-11 will be using SR 89 and SR 71.
I found this PDF that has various maps (from 2019) showing I-11 alignments passing through the various developments in the area. Most look like fantasies. Things may be more nailed down by now, although it doesn't look like the original MPC layouts were figuring on an Interstate passing through.
https://arizonacrew.org/getmedia/d4ecf887-6b56-4640-91d0-086e87066f88/AZCREW-Nov19-Presentation.pdf.aspx (https://arizonacrew.org/getmedia/d4ecf887-6b56-4640-91d0-086e87066f88/AZCREW-Nov19-Presentation.pdf.aspx)
I don't understand why I-11 have to go to Noagles (I can understand the need for it to go to Reno to connect with I-80). There is already I-19 serving that area.
I thought the reason I-11 exist is to connect Las Vegas and Phoenix, nothing more further than those two cities..... unless I am missing something?
I would have stopped Interstate 11 at its junction with Interstate 10, or connected it with the northern terminus of AZ 85, and run it down 85 to Interstate 8. Nogales is already served by Interstate 19, and does not need another Interstate running to it.
Quote from: Strider on July 02, 2023, 11:53:38 AM
I don't understand why I-11 have to go to Noagles (I can understand the need for it to go to Reno to connect with I-80). There is already I-19 serving that area.
I thought the reason I-11 exist is to connect Las Vegas and Phoenix, nothing more further than those two cities..... unless I am missing something?
Phoenix-Las Vegas is how this all started out before the rampant real estate speculation on the Arizona end of things got involved. Worth noting that Arizona hasn't pursued any official applications from AASHTO for I-11. I would be highly amused that if someone I-11 gets built toward Nogales decades from now and AASHTO refuses to approve a multiplex of I-19.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 02, 2023, 12:59:38 PM
I would have stopped Interstate 11 at its junction with Interstate 10, or connected it with the northern terminus of AZ 85, and run it down 85 to Interstate 8. Nogales is already served by Interstate 19, and does not need another Interstate running to it.
AZ 85 was submitted for supplemental mileage in believe 1968. Vietnam pared down the mileage approved from 4500 to 1500. Foolish. It would be a worthy 3DI connector between 8 and 10. Am of opinion running 11 down to there is stupid. It should be re-introduced onto the Grand Avenue corridor, the original intent. At least get it down to Loop 101.
The problem with Grand is the right of way costs will be prohibitively expensive. Two alternates options come to mind:
- Route I-11 down US 60 and AZ 303 to I-10 in Goodyear.
- Route I-11 along the corridor of AZ 74 to I-17 in northern Phoenix.
Regardless of whether it's called "I-11" or something else, the segment of US-60 between Wickenburg and the 303 loop needs to be updated to Interstate standards. It's likely I-11 could remain stuck as a Las Vegas to Kingman corridor for a long time.
I couldn't care less about building a freeway from Wickenburg to a spot on I-10 way out past Buckeye. It could be decades before such a thing is actually built (if ever). Sun Valley Parkway is already a good enough corridor for what is built out there. I'm skeptical about the big proposed plans developers have for that desert area West of the White Tank Mountains becoming a reality.
How would you build an Interstate Standard freeway along the US 60 corridor (Wickenburg-to-Phoenix) when much of the corridor is closely paralleled by railroad tracks adjacent to the westbound lanes (especially southeast of Morristown)?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 02, 2023, 04:38:49 PM
How would you build an Interstate Standard freeway along the US 60 corridor (Wickenburg-to-Phoenix) when much of the corridor is closely paralleled by railroad tracks adjacent to the westbound lanes (especially southeast of Morristown)?
Plenty of room until you get inside of 303 in Surprise. South of 303 it ain't happening given the rail corridor and frontage property on Grand. All the same, that's why I suggested AZ 74 in my last post. That's already a planned freeway corridor and used presently by a ton of traffic trying to get towards Wickenburg.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 02, 2023, 04:38:49 PM
How would you build an Interstate Standard freeway along the US 60 corridor (Wickenburg-to-Phoenix) when much of the corridor is closely paralleled by railroad tracks adjacent to the westbound lanes (especially southeast of Morristown)?
Plenty of room until you get inside of 303 in Surprise. South of 303 it ain't happening given the rail corridor and frontage property on Grand. All the same, that's why I suggested AZ 74 in my last post. That's already a planned freeway corridor and used presently by a ton of traffic trying to get towards Wickenburg.
There's no room SE of Circle City, about halfway between Wickenburg and the US 60/AZ 303 interchange. The tracks hug US 60 all the way into Phoenix.
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
The bottom line is that there will never be an upgrade to US 60 along Grand Ave. That horse was shot years ago. Don't bother beating it.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 02, 2023, 11:49:35 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 02, 2023, 04:38:49 PM
How would you build an Interstate Standard freeway along the US 60 corridor (Wickenburg-to-Phoenix) when much of the corridor is closely paralleled by railroad tracks adjacent to the westbound lanes (especially southeast of Morristown)?
Plenty of room until you get inside of 303 in Surprise. South of 303 it ain't happening given the rail corridor and frontage property on Grand. All the same, that's why I suggested AZ 74 in my last post. That's already a planned freeway corridor and used presently by a ton of traffic trying to get towards Wickenburg.
There's no room SE of Circle City, about halfway between Wickenburg and the US 60/AZ 303 interchange. The tracks hug US 60 all the way into Phoenix.
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
The bottom line is that there will never be an upgrade to US 60 along Grand Ave. That horse was shot years ago. Don't bother beating it.
I literally drive by BNSF main freight line tracks south of Fresno which are presently in the process of being shifted out of a desired right of way daily. There is no overwhelming challenges between Morristown and AZ 303 to do something similar.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 03, 2023, 12:17:26 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 02, 2023, 11:49:35 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 02, 2023, 04:38:49 PM
How would you build an Interstate Standard freeway along the US 60 corridor (Wickenburg-to-Phoenix) when much of the corridor is closely paralleled by railroad tracks adjacent to the westbound lanes (especially southeast of Morristown)?
Plenty of room until you get inside of 303 in Surprise. South of 303 it ain't happening given the rail corridor and frontage property on Grand. All the same, that's why I suggested AZ 74 in my last post. That's already a planned freeway corridor and used presently by a ton of traffic trying to get towards Wickenburg.
There's no room SE of Circle City, about halfway between Wickenburg and the US 60/AZ 303 interchange. The tracks hug US 60 all the way into Phoenix.
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
The bottom line is that there will never be an upgrade to US 60 along Grand Ave. That horse was shot years ago. Don't bother beating it.
I literally drive by BNSF main freight line tracks south of Fresno which are presently in the process of being shifted out of a desired right of way daily. There is no overwhelming challenges between Morristown and AZ 303 to do something similar.
There is development directly on the other side of those tracks in Surprise and Wittman. No way are those tracks going to be moved without LOTS of taxpayer's money funding the relocation. The chances of that happening are orders of magnitude less than zero. In fact, I've never heard the subject brought up in my 30 years here.
Any talk about upgrading US 60/Grand Ave. to a freeway needs to be moved to Fictional Highways. It's just not gonna happen.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 03, 2023, 12:29:23 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 03, 2023, 12:17:26 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 02, 2023, 11:49:35 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 02, 2023, 04:38:49 PM
How would you build an Interstate Standard freeway along the US 60 corridor (Wickenburg-to-Phoenix) when much of the corridor is closely paralleled by railroad tracks adjacent to the westbound lanes (especially southeast of Morristown)?
Plenty of room until you get inside of 303 in Surprise. South of 303 it ain't happening given the rail corridor and frontage property on Grand. All the same, that's why I suggested AZ 74 in my last post. That's already a planned freeway corridor and used presently by a ton of traffic trying to get towards Wickenburg.
There's no room SE of Circle City, about halfway between Wickenburg and the US 60/AZ 303 interchange. The tracks hug US 60 all the way into Phoenix.
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
The bottom line is that there will never be an upgrade to US 60 along Grand Ave. That horse was shot years ago. Don't bother beating it.
I literally drive by BNSF main freight line tracks south of Fresno which are presently in the process of being shifted out of a desired right of way daily. There is no overwhelming challenges between Morristown and AZ 303 to do something similar.
There is development directly on the other side of those tracks in Surprise and Wittman. No way are those tracks going to be moved without LOTS of taxpayer's money funding the relocation. The chances of that happening are orders of magnitude less than zero. In fact, I've never heard the subject brought up in my 30 years here.
Any talk about upgrading US 60/Grand Ave. to a freeway needs to be moved to Fictional Highways. It's just not gonna happen.
As far as I'm concerned "preferred alternatives" are only "so real" until shovels are in the ground. So much about I-11 has been planned in Arizona has been questionable at best. You act as I don't know US 60 isn't going be upgraded. If you would have told me in 2001 that US 93 would he fully four lanes potentially one day in Arizona and the Hoover Dam was going to be bypassed I would have been content with that.
Aside from that, if you want to shit can my replies ping a mod.
I suppose time will tell what happens. Right now, there is far too much uncertainty to accurately predict what will happen.
Perhaps someone can chime in regarding rails? I'm not seeing anything regarding Interstate design standards which dictate a minimum divide between a freeway and railroad grade. Both Wittman and Circle City seem to be easy enough places to bypass and use existing Grand as frontage roads.
For quite some time the US has been decommissioning far more miles of existing railroad than doing upgrades, much less building anything new. That rail line next to US-60 is not a nothing type route. But it sure isn't remotely on par with the Southern Transcon either. With the way the rail industry is going I expect to see many thousands more miles of track get decommissioned and ripped out of the ground. I figure it's only a matter of time before the one rail line we have left in my town gets removed.
Regarding Circle City, there is enough space to build a freeway there along the existing alignment. It doesn't necessarily need frontage roads. Two intersections there have streets bowing out away from the highway seemingly to make room for ramps. The main lanes of US-60 can be built closer to the rail line too. Check out how closely I-40 in downtown OKC was re-built alongside an existing rail line.
The town of Whitman has more than enough space for 2x2 freeway main lanes flanked by continuous frontage roads. The existing utility lines running parallel to the highway would need to be relocated so the current dirt road can be expanded into a proper 2-lane frontage road. But that's not all that big a problem.
Upgrading "Grand Ave" outside the 303 loop to Interstate standards is do-able. It's a different animal than trying to upgrade Grand inside of Loop 303. If anyone wants to get technical about it, ANY version of I-11 to the South of Kingman is very much "fictional" at this point. All that real estate crap various con artists are trying to promote way out past Buckeye could be a pipe dream. The real estate market in the US is in extremely absurd, NOT-sustainable territory. It's a bubble very primed to explode like an H-bomb. That 100,000 or 300,000 or whatever amount of homes they're talking about building out there is probably not ever going to happen. It would be darkly funny as hell if they ended up building I-11 to I-10 way the f*** out there and the whole location well West of Phoenix still remained as vacant desert.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 02, 2023, 11:49:35 PM
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
Running I-11 over to I-17 would be less useful, because there is no likely future extension beyond that point. Where would it go? To the Beeline Highway? Extending it south to I-10 would likely be followed up with an extension to I-8, which would be a useful Phoenix bypass. Not every truck coming from Vegas is going to the Phoenix area.
Quote from: pderocco on July 04, 2023, 04:31:56 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 02, 2023, 11:49:35 PM
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
Running I-11 over to I-17 would be less useful, because there is no likely future extension beyond that point. Where would it go? To the Beeline Highway? Extending it south to I-10 would likely be followed up with an extension to I-8, which would be a useful Phoenix bypass. Not every truck coming from Vegas is going to the Phoenix area.
Here's the thing though, much of those freight corridor out of Las Vegas going elsewhere don't necessarily need even get close to Phoenix. Much of the freight traffic heading south out of the Vegas towards the border uses US 95, CA 62, AZ 95 Truck, AZ 95 and US 95 due to somewhat gentle gradient. For sun belt states east of Arizona likely following US 93 and I-40 towards New Mexico is going to a better way to go than attempting to pass through Phoenix to get to I-10.
Also, I'm not arguing there is some sort of utility of in a continuation of the semi-bypass functionality that AZ 85 already has for the Phoenix area. Does that corridor necessarily have to be I-11 though? I-11 was branded as the Phoenix-Las Vegas Interstate, having it bypass Phoenix doesn't serve that function. I get the theory is "if you built they will come" with the freight but that doesn't necessarily need to have a non-chargeable Interstate shield slapped to that.
Quote from: pderocco on July 04, 2023, 04:31:56 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 02, 2023, 11:49:35 PM
AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that. Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant. Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished. Lotsa luck there.
Running I-11 over to I-17 would be less useful, because there is no likely future extension beyond that point. Where would it go? To the Beeline Highway? Extending it south to I-10 would likely be followed up with an extension to I-8, which would be a useful Phoenix bypass. Not every truck coming from Vegas is going to the Phoenix area.
Why would it need to go anywhere? I-11 was sold as the Vegas-Phoenix interstate, not the Vegas-Nogales interstate. I-19 already goes to Nogales. I can see value in having a Phoenix bypass for thru traffic, but that could just as easily be a 3di, if Arizona could get over its aversion to them (it's not like I'm proposing to make every freeway in Phoenix an interstate for the sake of it or anything; such would form a logical backbone in combination with I-10 and I-17 for traffic going to/from/through/around Phoenix).
Quote from: vdeane on July 04, 2023, 03:51:09 PM
Why would it need to go anywhere? I-11 was sold as the Vegas-Phoenix interstate, not the Vegas-Nogales interstate. I-19 already goes to Nogales. I can see value in having a Phoenix bypass for thru traffic, but that could just as easily be a 3di, if Arizona could get over its aversion to them (it's not like I'm proposing to make every freeway in Phoenix an interstate for the sake of it or anything; such would form a logical backbone in combination with I-10 and I-17 for traffic going to/from/through/around Phoenix).
Doesn't really matter what it was "sold as". It's not as though they've already appropriated the billions of dollars to build I-11, and people would be pissed off if it didn't go where they thought it would go.
It's clear that it's never going to go to downtown Phoenix along the US-60 corridor, nor is anyone dreaming of that. It could easily go to 303, and maybe 101. But either way, it would be a dangling 2di. To avoid that, I suppose 303 could be turned into a 3di, but ending a 2di at a 3di is uncommon too. Or, it could go to I-17 or I-10. But my narrow point was only that, of the two, I-10 would be more useful, as it could continue to I-8.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 03, 2023, 11:25:21 PM
For quite some time the US has been decommissioning far more miles of existing railroad than doing upgrades, much less building anything new. That rail line next to US-60 is not a nothing type route. But it sure isn't remotely on par with the Southern Transcon either. With the way the rail industry is going I expect to see many thousands more miles of track get decommissioned and ripped out of the ground. I figure it's only a matter of time before the one rail line we have left in my town gets removed.
Regarding Circle City, there is enough space to build a freeway there along the existing alignment. It doesn't necessarily need frontage roads. Two intersections there have streets bowing out away from the highway seemingly to make room for ramps. The main lanes of US-60 can be built closer to the rail line too. Check out how closely I-40 in downtown OKC was re-built alongside an existing rail line.
If BNSF can repurchase the O'Neill (NE) to Sioux City line 16 years after giving it to a short-line carrier, and if BNSF can take over Montana Rail Link's lines, they will very likely retain that connection from the Transcon to Phoenix. And very likely keep the line running through your town (if BNSF is the railroad in your town). Which means putting in a parallel I-11 from Wickenburg to Loop 303 is likely out of the question. Which means the best option for ADOT remains running I-11 through Teravalis to I-10, then widening I-10 to 6 lanes from that point to SR 85.
I'll just note here as someone who lives a mile away from the current BNSF yard next to Grand in Surprise, getting any kind of Interstate inside the 303 loop is never going to happen in a bazillion years. Development is packed up to the edge of the road on the Grand side, and up next to the BNSF tracks on the Sun City West side. Even outside the 303 loop, development is happening FAST and any build needs to have the ROW protected immediately. Since that's seemingly on nobody's radar, it's not gonna happen. Alsosince someone brought up the possibility of tracks being deleted, BNSF has announced plans for yet another large transit yard a few miles out from the 303, somewhere around Morristown IIRC. BNSF seems to be looking at that line and thinking the polar opposite of any type of "removal" of their trackage. Again, if there's ANY movement of BNSF tracks to accommodate future freeway ROW, it has to happen NOW or else it never will. I personally feel like the only way I-11 is getting to the "Phoenix metro" is the proposed route west of the White Tanks. It certainly would be very helpful if ADOT worked on the Grand/US 60 corridor and expanded it towards Wickenburg, but I think the hope of the Wickenburg/Phoenix portion of I-11 along US 60 is completely dead.
I don't think anyone here is seriously proposing an Interstate be built on Grand Avenue inside the 303 loop.
Regarding the BNSF line parallel to US-60, even if they added a second track alongside the existing single track line and built the second pair of rails inboard closer to US-60 there would still be enough room for freeway main lanes and frontage roads. In Morristown the rail line is positioned even farther away from US-60.
I just don't see how there should be any big challenge converting US-60 to Interstate standards from outside Wickenburg down to the interchange with AZ-303.
As an Arizona resident I'll offer the opinion that if I-11 were to find its way to the I-10/AZ 85 interchange it would be just fine with me. If Chicago can be used as a control city on I-80, then Phoenix can be used as a control city on I-11. It would make sense for the spur route into central Phoenix (on the current US 60 alignment) to have a route number derived from I-11, whether it be a state or Interstate route.
I would be OK with I-11 extending south to I-8 via the AZ 85 corridor. This would create an all-Interstate bypass pf metropolitan Phoenix (as, of course, would hanging an Interstate shield on AZ 85 between I-8 and I-10). If it ever made sense from a capacity standpoint, I-11 could be extended south to the international border at Lukeville.
I do not think there is a need for parallel Interstate routes between Casa Grande to Nogales. Widen I-8, I-10, and I-19. A western (or eastern, for that matter) bypass of Tucson would be nice, but Tucson is freeway-averse, and the path to getting it built will face hurdle after hurdle.
I've lived in Arizona before yet I still believe the currently proposed I-11 path is wasteful stupidity. It would be a government handout to real estate speculators.
Quote from: KonzaAs an Arizona resident I'll offer the opinion that if I-11 were to find its way to the I-10/AZ 85 interchange it would be just fine with me.
I-11 wouldn't be built to the I-10/AZ-85 interchange. It would be built down to I-10
even farther west of that interchange -way out in the middle of nowhere. The White Tank Mountains (and some existing development West of it) is an obstacle to connecting I-11 directly into AZ-85.
Quote from: KonzaIf Chicago can be used as a control city on I-80, then Phoenix can be used as a control city on I-11.
I-80 might not technically cross into Chicago city limits, but it crosses the Southern suburbs of Chicagoland within about 6 miles of the city limits border. Basically it goes well into very developed parts of the Chicago metro. This proposal for I-11 does NOT get into any developed areas of the Phoenix metro at all. It only crosses through land where some real estate developers may
or may not build thousands of new homes.
New arrivals to the Phoenix area are having to find out the hard way about water conservation (green lawns getting banned in many places, restrictions put on swimming pools, etc). This coming week the actual air temperatures (not heat index) is supposed to be well above 110°F. Some of those areas West of Phoenix get even hotter.
Yeah, I totally so want to buy some over-priced real estate out there.Quote from: KonzaI do not think there is a need for parallel Interstate routes between Casa Grande to Nogales.
Most people would agree on that. I don't even know how they would manage to get the parallel route through the Tucson area considering how that city has a hatred for freeways but seems to love row after row after row of traffic signals. I'm not even sure I-19 needs much widening. Far more commerce from Mexico enters the US in Texas.
Quote from: Konza on July 08, 2023, 12:38:54 AM
As an Arizona resident I'll offer the opinion that if I-11 were to find its way to the I-10/AZ 85 interchange it would be just fine with me. If Chicago can be used as a control city on I-80, then Phoenix can be used as a control city on I-11. It would make sense for the spur route into central Phoenix (on the current US 60 alignment) to have a route number derived from I-11, whether it be a state or Interstate route.
I would be OK with I-11 extending south to I-8 via the AZ 85 corridor. This would create an all-Interstate bypass pf metropolitan Phoenix (as, of course, would hanging an Interstate shield on AZ 85 between I-8 and I-10). If it ever made sense from a capacity standpoint, I-11 could be extended south to the international border at Lukeville.
I do not think there is a need for parallel Interstate routes between Casa Grande to Nogales. Widen I-8, I-10, and I-19. A western (or eastern, for that matter) bypass of Tucson would be nice, but Tucson is freeway-averse, and the path to getting it built will face hurdle after hurdle.
I-11 from a point north of Wickenburg, south to I-10, east for a few miles along I-10 (to avoid the White Mountains, etc.), south along AZ 85 to a newly built terminus at I-8 in Gila Bend makes the most sense. This isn't the 1950s anymore, where interstate highways HAVE to go downtown. Besides, does the central part of the metro really NEED more traffic congestion?
The Buckeye exit currently sits 12 miles from 303, 22 miles from 101, and about 30 miles from I-17. Not far at all for people traveling directly between the city centers of Phoenix and Las Vegas.
Besides, AZ 85 to I-8 is intended as a southern bypass of I-10. I-11 would work great as a part of this scenario, plus as a connector to I-8 WB to Yuma, San Diego, etc.
However, the way I see it, I-8 in Gila Bend would be the southern terminus of I-11. No eastbound duplex of I-8/11 to I-10 to wrap around Tucson or whatever goofy idea they have, and absolutely NO duplex along I-19 to Nogales! I think truckers are smart enough to know how to take multiple routes to reach their destinations.
Quote from: Fighting IrishThis isn't the 1950s anymore, where interstate highways HAVE to go downtown.
Who the hell is saying I-11 has to go into downtown Phoenix? Or is this just a strawman you have talking?
The US-60/AZ-303 interchange is NOT in downtown Phoenix or even near it. But that location is at least into the actual metro area. That crap out past the White Tanks is not. It's way the hell out of the way. If I-11 is actually built to go way out past Buckeye I can guarantee the vast majority of traffic moving between Vegas and Phoenix will get off I-11 in Wickenburg and continue along US-60.
Quote from: Fighting IrishBesides, AZ 85 to I-8 is intended as a southern bypass of I-10.
AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2023, 07:21:02 PM
AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.
I wonder if AZDOT has data on that. Truckers going from CA across the southern states probably use it to bypass Phoenix. Indeed, ag shippers from the San Joaquin Valley generally prefer I-40 to I-10 due to traffic, especially now that CA-58 is four lanes divided from Bakersfield to Barstow, so they might prefer an I-11 from Kingman to Buckeye.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2023, 07:21:02 PM
Quote from: Fighting IrishThis isn't the 1950s anymore, where interstate highways HAVE to go downtown.
Who the hell is saying I-11 has to go into downtown Phoenix? Or is this just a strawman you have talking?
The US-60/AZ-303 interchange is NOT in downtown Phoenix or even near it. But that location is at least into the actual metro area. That crap out past the White Tanks is not. It's way the hell out of the way. If I-11 is actually built to go way out past Buckeye I can guarantee the vast majority of traffic moving between Vegas and Phoenix will get off I-11 in Wickenburg and continue along US-60.
Quote from: Fighting IrishBesides, AZ 85 to I-8 is intended as a southern bypass of I-10.
AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.
Believe the "original" idea was to improve Grand Avenue from I-17 westward towards Wickenburg. As part of the early - mid eighties discussions leading to the 1985 bond/sales tax issue. Some improvements have been made, to difficult six way intersections. But am of opinion most do not meet Interstate design guidelines.
Grand Avenue inside the 303 loop is a lost cause. The random grade separations with some crossing streets is about the only thing that can be done.
If the rail line was somehow relocated it might be possible to convert US-60 to a freeway from Loop 303 to Loop 101. But that would require some elevated structures and very tight slip ramps. It's a scenario that's probably not worth pursuing ever.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 08, 2023, 07:21:02 PM
AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.
A couple of thoughts here:
Most of AZ 85 between I-10 and I-8 was originally US 80, so, of course, it was built for traffic from Phoenix to Yuma, and, yes, eventually, San Diego.
The big green signs on westbound I-10 just before the intersection with I-8 near Casa Grande promote I-8/AZ 85 as a "Phoenix Bypass Route". I'll assume there are similar signs on eastbound I-10 just west if the AZ 85 interchange. That may not be why AZ 85 was built, but it is certainly the reason it remains in the state highway system and has been improved to its current configuration.
I note that Google Maps labels AZ-85 and the eastern part of I-8 as the "Phoenix Bypass Route", and it is signed as such on I-10 at both ends. However, I found some AADT data online, and it shows that the traffic on I-8 west of Gila Bend is quite a bit higher than east of Gila Bend, about 14.5K at Citrus Valley Rd vs 6.7K at Freeman Rd (in 2021). So that suggests that AZ-85 is being used more for going to Phoenix than for bypassing Phoenix, by over 2-to-1. (I'm assuming no one ever goes to Ajo. I did once, and that was enough.)
Ajo is weird enough that I thought it was interesting. Then again, how many semi-remote desert mining towns are there nowadays? Globe/Miami/Superior far more civilized and nominally more temperate due to higher elevations.
In practical purpose, I used AZ 85 south of I-8 to go hiking out at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument. On occasion I would go that way to hit the border en route to Rocky Point. I suspect those who live in Why had a sense of where they lived when the state ordered the community name be lengthened to three letters.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 09, 2023, 05:12:24 PM
Globe/Miami/Superior far more civilized and nominally more temperate due to higher elevations.
Very cosmopolitan.
Call me a sucker for the aesthetic the Superior/Miami/Globe corridor. I loved working out in that area, it had way much more going on than Ajo ever did. The Burger House on US 60 alone in Miami was worth the day trip.
Quote from: pderocco on July 09, 2023, 05:03:15 PM
I note that Google Maps labels AZ-85 and the eastern part of I-8 as the "Phoenix Bypass Route", and it is signed as such on I-10 at both ends. However, I found some AADT data online, and it shows that the traffic on I-8 west of Gila Bend is quite a bit higher than east of Gila Bend, about 14.5K at Citrus Valley Rd vs 6.7K at Freeman Rd (in 2021). So that suggests that AZ-85 is being used more for going to Phoenix than for bypassing Phoenix, by over 2-to-1. (I'm assuming no one ever goes to Ajo. I did once, and that was enough.)
AZ 85 north of I-8 really should be AZ's first 3di (I-208). It's the most direct route between the Phoenix area and Yuma / San Diego and carries a lot of that traffic (including truck traffic from all of the distribution facilities in the western part of the Phoenix metro area. I know there are plans to update the first few miles (from I-10 to future AZ 30 at MC 85) but the whole thing should've been an interstate (similar to I-505 in California).
Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.
Having driven both AZ-85 and US-93 recently, I think it's a long away away for them to be upgraded. Lots of work has to be done to make a bypass to Kingman and Gila Bend.
Between Kingman & the Colorado River on US-93, there were a couple of brand new traffic signals. I don't think AZDOT is prioritizing this project.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2023, 08:17:24 PM
Having driven both AZ-85 and US-93 recently, I think it's a long away away for them to be upgraded. Lots of work has to be done to make a bypass to Kingman and Gila Bend.
Between Kingman & the Colorado River on US-93, there were a couple of brand new traffic signals. I don't think AZDOT is prioritizing this project.
Yeah I noticed those also on US 93, definitely not a step forward there.
What gets me is that ADOT seems to be prioritizing I-11 south of I-10 with the exception of the Kingman Bypass. Once that project gets completed I think the next logical step will be to upgrade that project's northern extent limits to the Nevada border to connect with the current section of I-11 through Boulder City. That would provide a nice section of I-11 through LV(once NDOT gets that finished) to I-40. At the same time ADOT does that they could find funding for the I-40 project through Kingman which will widen it to 4 lanes each way(IIRC) and upgrade the existing infrastructure where needed.
After that is done hopefully by the early 2030s they could have competed planning and studies for the alignments from I-40 to the Phoenix metro. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to see sections of that started by 2040 possibly the mid 2030s.
Once all of that is done then AZ can look at completing I-11 to the Mexico border if they really want to which doesn't make much sense to me unless they replace I-19 with I-11 which I could see.
Interstate 19 of course replaced US 89 between Tucson and Nogales. There is no need to replace 19 with another Interstate designation.
Isn't there branding to present I-11 as a Mexico to Canada interstate?
I highly doubt Interstate 11 will make it to Mexico, it definitely won't make it to Canada. Insufficient traffic demand will likely confine Interstate 11 to Arizona and Nevada.
I think the most important part will be Phoenix to Vegas. The next most important part would be Vegas to Reno.
I think the Vegas to Reno segment of I-11 would be easier to sell if it was built as part of a larger I-11 highway to connect into I-5 in Oregon. The Southern Oregon area (from Klamath Falls to Medford and Grants Pass) would be easier. The other alternative would be going up thru Bend and then taking the US-26 corridor by Mount Hood up into the Portland area. The Dalles and I-84 would be an even easier option. But it would have I-11 ending roughly 80 miles East of Portland rather than connecting into Portland.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 10, 2023, 08:06:09 PM
Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.
I could be wrong, but is part of the reason the Phoenix loop system doesn't have "Interstate" designations because it's funded through local taxes and not Federal dollars?
Quote from: Sonic99 on July 11, 2023, 02:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 10, 2023, 08:06:09 PM
Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.
I could be wrong, but is part of the reason the Phoenix loop system doesn't have "Interstate" designations because it's funded through local taxes and not Federal dollars?
As long as the highways meet the specifications, they could still apply for designation.
Quote from: Sonic99 on July 11, 2023, 02:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 10, 2023, 08:06:09 PM
Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.
I could be wrong, but is part of the reason the Phoenix loop system doesn't have "Interstate" designations because it's funded through local taxes and not Federal dollars?
That's more or the reason I was given by a ADOT rep when I asked them. None of the corridors were chargeable and nobody was interested in the red tape of petitioning AASHTO or the FHWA for route numbers.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:15:42 AM
Quote from: Sonic99 on July 11, 2023, 02:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 10, 2023, 08:06:09 PM
Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.
I could be wrong, but is part of the reason the Phoenix loop system doesn't have "Interstate" designations because it's funded through local taxes and not Federal dollars?
That's more or the reason I was given by a ADOT rep when I asked them. None of the corridors were chargeable and nobody was interested in the red tape of petitioning AASHTO or the FHWA for route numbers.
The loops do receive some amount of federal aid funding, as they are designated part of the NHS.
Quote from: 707 on July 11, 2023, 12:55:11 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:15:42 AM
Quote from: Sonic99 on July 11, 2023, 02:32:52 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 10, 2023, 08:06:09 PM
Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.
I could be wrong, but is part of the reason the Phoenix loop system doesn't have "Interstate" designations because it's funded through local taxes and not Federal dollars?
That's more or the reason I was given by a ADOT rep when I asked them. None of the corridors were chargeable and nobody was interested in the red tape of petitioning AASHTO or the FHWA for route numbers.
The loops do receive some amount of federal aid funding, as they are designated part of the NHS.
They don't "receive" the NHPP funding (STBG funds could also be used), but would be eligible for the overall apportionment.
Makes you wonder when the loops were added to the federal-aid system, given their local funding.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 10, 2023, 11:37:09 PM
I think the Vegas to Reno segment of I-11 would be easier to sell if it was built as part of a larger I-11 highway to connect into I-5 in Oregon. The Southern Oregon area (from Klamath Falls to Medford and Grants Pass) would be easier. The other alternative would be going up thru Bend and then taking the US-26 corridor by Mount Hood up into the Portland area. The Dalles and I-84 would be an even easier option. But it would have I-11 ending roughly 80 miles East of Portland rather than connecting into Portland.
I could see I-11 roughly following US-395 up to Alturas, then something near to CA-139 to Klamath Falls, then US-97 and US-197 up to the Columbia River.
In about fifty years.
Is there sufficient traffic demand to warrant an Interstate Standard freeway along these alignments? I would say no, and I've never been to California or Oregon.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 11, 2023, 08:38:53 PM
Is there sufficient traffic demand to warrant an Interstate Standard freeway along these alignments? I would say no, and I've never been to California or Oregon.
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
Considering how much cheaper fuel prices are outside of California (not to mention what a pain in the ass it is to drive thru California) a long distance, high quality bypass route might be very worthwhile.
Traffic counts on the existing 2-lane corridor North of Las Vegas are miniscule because it's a very desolate and arguably dangerous road. I personally hate driving on rural 2-lane roads as part of long distance road trips. Head on collisions are a real possibility (especially with so many people unable to put down the damned phones while driving). Lots of people go well out of their way to stay on 4-lane roads or even Interstates.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Quote from: pderocco on July 11, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Both which the current corridor of US 95 lacks. Find me a compelling reason to open a gas station in the likes of Coaldale or Goldfield. That and where to draw employees from.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 10, 2023, 11:37:09 PM
I think the Vegas to Reno segment of I-11 would be easier to sell if it was built as part of a larger I-11 highway to connect into I-5 in Oregon. The Southern Oregon area (from Klamath Falls to Medford and Grants Pass) would be easier. The other alternative would be going up thru Bend and then taking the US-26 corridor by Mount Hood up into the Portland area. The Dalles and I-84 would be an even easier option. But it would have I-11 ending roughly 80 miles East of Portland rather than connecting into Portland.
That would be interesting to think about. It'll take an entirely new mentality in Oregon to support a new long distance interstate through there unfortunately. One last fictional comment and I'm done but at some point it might be worth looking into to creating an interstate from I-80 around Winnemucca and pointing north towards Boise if they keep up their growth.
I love the Oregon idea but I bet we'd have a better shot at resurrecting the I-710 tunnel in LA before Oregon starts building new freeways again.
I think Oregon is on the verge of going through serious economic and political upheaval due to the worsening shit-show in the Portland area. My boss' youngest son lives in Portland. He liked living there at first several years ago. Now he hates it and wants to leave (and maybe even move back to Oklahoma). He's not the only "Portlander" looking to escape. The city has been losing population since 2020. The exodus may accelerate dramatically because city (and state) leadership appears to be completely out of touch. Residents and business owners are feeling like they have no recourse. So they're starting to move to other locations, such as the Boise metro, or Phoenix or various places in Texas.
With that being said, it might be politically feasible in the future to extend a new Interstate from the Reno area to I-5 in Southern Oregon.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 11, 2023, 08:38:53 PM
Is there sufficient traffic demand to warrant an Interstate Standard freeway along these alignments? I would say no, and I've never been to California or Oregon.
Of course not. That's why I said, "In fifty years." LV to Reno is the most desolate part, and the least likely to be upgraded. But over the next two generations, I could imagine significant development happening in NE California, around Susanville and in the Pitt River valley. And the same for the US-97 corridor in Oregon: Klamath Falls, La Pine, Bend, Madras, The Dalles. I think an Interstate through there is more likely than, say, extending I-70 into California, as some people persist in dreaming about.
Of course, if we all have flying cars by then, we won't need roads...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhSC4C43wgc.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: pderocco on July 11, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Both which the current corridor of US 95 lacks. Find me a compelling reason to open a gas station in the likes of Coaldale or Goldfield. That and where to draw employees from.
Believe Goldfield was the town featured in the cult film "Vanishing Point" (1971), in which a speed pill addled driver (Barry Newman) finds himself in a situation where he needs to get a car (1970 Dodge Challenger) from Denver to California as fast as possible. There was a radio DJ in Goldfield "Super Soul" (Cleavon Little) who became aware of the chase, and urged Newman to continue, and evade the cops.
Quote from: DJStephens on October 01, 2023, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: pderocco on July 11, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Both which the current corridor of US 95 lacks. Find me a compelling reason to open a gas station in the likes of Coaldale or Goldfield. That and where to draw employees from.
Believe Goldfield was the town featured in the cult film "Vanishing Point" (1971), in which a speed pill addled driver (Barry Newman) finds himself in a situation where he needs to get a car (1970 Dodge Challenger) from Denver to California as fast as possible. There was a radio DJ in Goldfield "Super Soul" (Cleavon Little) who became aware of the chase, and urged Newman to continue, and evade the cops.
Yes and for some reason they note Goldfield to be in Utah.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 01, 2023, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 01, 2023, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: pderocco on July 11, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Both which the current corridor of US 95 lacks. Find me a compelling reason to open a gas station in the likes of Coaldale or Goldfield. That and where to draw employees from.
Believe Goldfield was the town featured in the cult film "Vanishing Point" (1971), in which a speed pill addled driver (Barry Newman) finds himself in a situation where he needs to get a car (1970 Dodge Challenger) from Denver to California as fast as possible. There was a radio DJ in Goldfield "Super Soul" (Cleavon Little) who became aware of the chase, and urged Newman to continue, and evade the cops.
Yes and for some reason they note Goldfield to be in Utah.
Maybe they confused it with Gold Hill?
Well, the US 93/Interstate 40 interchange begins construction next year, with a completion date of 2026: https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange.
Quote from: DJStephens on October 01, 2023, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: pderocco on July 11, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Both which the current corridor of US 95 lacks. Find me a compelling reason to open a gas station in the likes of Coaldale or Goldfield. That and where to draw employees from.
Believe Goldfield was the town featured in the cult film "Vanishing Point" (1971), in which a speed pill addled driver (Barry Newman) finds himself in a situation where he needs to get a car (1970 Dodge Challenger) from Denver to California as fast as possible. There was a radio DJ in Goldfield "Super Soul" (Cleavon Little) who became aware of the chase, and urged Newman to continue, and evade the cops.
It's a fun movie. "Huh. Just watching him drive around is getting boring. Let's through in a naked woman on a motorcycle." -- Screenwriter, probably.
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2023, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on October 01, 2023, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: pderocco on July 11, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 11, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
There isn't even viable traffic count north of Las Vegas to justify an Interstate. So much of this CANAMEX stuff is predicated on "build it and the trucks will come" rather than actual current traffic counts and projections.
They might actually come. I think nothing pleases truckers more than freeways with little other traffic, as long as there is the occasional truck stop. And in Nevada, some other things...
Both which the current corridor of US 95 lacks. Find me a compelling reason to open a gas station in the likes of Coaldale or Goldfield. That and where to draw employees from.
Believe Goldfield was the town featured in the cult film "Vanishing Point" (1971), in which a speed pill addled driver (Barry Newman) finds himself in a situation where he needs to get a car (1970 Dodge Challenger) from Denver to California as fast as possible. There was a radio DJ in Goldfield "Super Soul" (Cleavon Little) who became aware of the chase, and urged Newman to continue, and evade the cops.
It's a fun movie. "Huh. Just watching him drive around is getting boring. Let's through in a naked woman on a motorcycle." -- Screenwriter, probably.
Even still, Vanishing Point has some of the best "driving around" scenes in film history.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 01, 2023, 10:35:22 PM
Well, the US 93/Interstate 40 interchange begins construction next year, with a completion date of 2026: https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange.
Very happy to see this starting! The backups have been worse my last few trips even outside of the usual weekends where it's always been an issue.
Quote from: kdk on October 02, 2023, 06:16:28 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 01, 2023, 10:35:22 PM
Well, the US 93/Interstate 40 interchange begins construction next year, with a completion date of 2026: https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange.
Very happy to see this starting! The backups have been worse my last few trips even outside of the usual weekends where it's always been an issue.
Yeah, this one was LONG overdue!
I think the US 93-to-Interstate 11 conversion between the Arizona/Nevada border and Interstate 40 in Kingman will be the first leg of 11 to be completed. I suspect the segment beyond Interstate 40 will take significantly longer to complete, although it will depend on how much of a priority building out the proposed Interstate 11 corridor in Arizona is.
The segment from Kingman up to the Colorado River should be an easy upgrade. Beyond the short bypass of Beale Street in Kingman there should be little if any need to acquire and remove any buildings possibly in the way. Most of the project would just involve removing at-grade intersections.
It's a similar story from I-40 down to Wickenburg. Wikieup might need a short bypass. But that's about it. It doesn't look like US-93 has out of date geometry.
The toughest tasks are going to be building I-11 South of Wickenburg to/around the Phoenix area. In the meantime they could handle the easy stuff (as funding allows).
I wonder when they'll get around to the other I-40 interchange. As long as they're fourlaning the remaining few bits of US-93 across the hills, they ought to consider fourlaning that trumpet interchange.
I suspect it will be quite a while before anything happens to the US 93 South interchange on Interstate 40. In addition to reconstructing the interchange into a full freeway-to-freeway interchange, the at-grade intersection with Round Valley Rd. will have to be eliminated as well.
Yeah, that trumpet interchange with I-40 and US-93 probably needs to be completely re-built. That tight 25mph cloverleaf ramp for the WB I-40 to SB US-93 movement needs to be replaced with a new flyover ramp. The other existing ramps don't look like they have curve geometry good enough for rural Interstate travel speeds.
It might be possible for them to retain the existing 2-lane bridge over I-40 if it was converted to a one lane ramp for the NB US-93 to WB I-40 movement. That would allow the existing road surface to be repainted with a single lane that actually had shoulders. These days it seems more common for Interstate to Interstate interchanges to have 2-lane movements. So NB US-93 to WB I-40 really would need a bridge deck at least 40' wide to hold two modern lanes as well as proper shoulders. At any rate, the existing bridge looks pretty damned old, even if it has a fresh coat of paint.
I'm not sure that there's enough traffic that the WB I-40→SB US-93 ramp is a huge concern. After all, most traffic from points further east would be apt to take I-17 into Phoenix rather than head west to Kingman first. There aren't really a whole lot of origin points between Kingman and Flagstaff where it would make more sense to take US-93 instead of I-17, either.
Obviously, it would be nice to make the geometry friendlier while they're working on the interchange, but I'm not sure if a whole flyover is necessary.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 18, 2023, 01:41:00 AM
I'm not sure that there's enough traffic that the WB I-40→SB US-93 ramp is a huge concern. After all, most traffic from points further east would be apt to take I-17 into Phoenix rather than head west to Kingman first. There aren't really a whole lot of origin points between Kingman and Flagstaff where it would make more sense to take US-93 instead of I-17, either.
There isn't an extreme amount of traffic in most cases, but that ramp is still a huge bottleneck and needs to be upgraded. I was just on it about a month ago, and it's always the same, mostly because of truck traffic. Most of 93 north of Wickieup is now 4-lane, and I believe it's imperative to rebuild this ramp ASAP.
Yeah caught at the wrong time that ramp can cause some serious backups.
BTW, the I-40/US 93 South junction is officially called the Round Valley Interchange (after the local road that branches off to the north just after NB 93 crosses I-40).
For the record, the I-40/US 93 North junction at Beale Street is officially named the West Kingman Interchange. No word on what the new one just northeast of there will be named, or if ADOT is even still assigning names to their newer interchanges.
Is naming interchanges common in Arizona? There are plenty of named interchanges here in Wisconsin.
As much as new freeway interchanges cost it only seems appropriate for them to have names. Hell, state DOT agencies might even start selling naming rights, just like sports stadiums have been doing.
:crazy:
Quote from: SSR_317 on October 21, 2023, 02:00:02 PM
For the record, the I-40/US 93 North junction at Beale Street is officially named the West Kingman Interchange. No word on what the new one just northeast of there will be named, or if ADOT is even still assigning names to their newer interchanges.
How about the Bottleneck Eliminator Interchange? :)
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 22, 2023, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on October 21, 2023, 02:00:02 PM
For the record, the I-40/US 93 North junction at Beale Street is officially named the West Kingman Interchange. No word on what the new one just northeast of there will be named, or if ADOT is even still assigning names to their newer interchanges.
How about the Bottleneck Eliminator Interchange? :)
I like that! Though the local business lobby would likely want to call it the Revenue Killer Interchange.
Has there been any talk about what will happen with the current setup along this stretch of Beale Street once the bypass opens? Road diet? Reconfiguration of the current I-40 interchange?
I imagine the road would remain in its current configuration. Let's not forget this, uh, interchange, with US-93 and I-40 will not have all traffic movements built at the outset. Two of the ramps in this "Y" interchange will be built later. That's still going to drop a good amount of traffic onto Beale Street. Anyone coming up from the Southwest of Kingman (such as Lake Havasu City) and headed to Las Vegas will still have to take Beale Street as a "Breezewood" connection into a US-93/I-11 freeway going North to Hoover Dam.
So, something like a "road diet" applied to Beale Street before all movements are built between I-11 and I-40 would be pretty short-sighted and counter-productive (maybe even dangerous).
Quote from: SSR_317 on October 23, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 22, 2023, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on October 21, 2023, 02:00:02 PM
For the record, the I-40/US 93 North junction at Beale Street is officially named the West Kingman Interchange. No word on what the new one just northeast of there will be named, or if ADOT is even still assigning names to their newer interchanges.
How about the Bottleneck Eliminator Interchange? :)
I like that! Though the local business lobby would likely want to call it the Revenue Killer Interchange.
Only the major-chain gas stations that charge $0.50+ more per gallon than the independents a couple blocks closer to I-40. NEVER buy gas on Beale St. Fill up at the truck stops closer to the Round Valley Interchange, which are much cheaper.
Do they have an estimate on how many interchanges would be needed along the US 93 corridor between the Kingman Wash Access Road and the soon-to-be constructed interchange with Interstate 40? How about the number of interchanges along US 93 between Interstate 40 and Wickenburg?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 03:08:59 PM
Do they have an estimate on how many interchanges would be needed along the US 93 corridor between the Kingman Wash Access Road and the soon-to-be constructed interchange with Interstate 40? How about the number of interchanges along US 93 between Interstate 40 and Wickenburg?
Between Kingman & Nevada, I'm not sure how many interchanges there will be. That would most likely be determined during the NEPA process for converting it to Interstate 11.
As for I-40 (Round Valley Interchange) to the planned Wickenburg Bypass, I saw the plans several years ago online that detailed all the proposed interchanges. Not sure if I have a copy of those plans or not, will search for them in the next several days and let you know. I don't think they are still available online at ADOT. Of course, all such plans are subject to revision, especially given the time that has passed since there were first created. But given the remote, rural nature of US 93 in that area, I doubt they will have to be changed much once AZ gets the money and will to finally implement them.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 03:08:59 PM
Do they have an estimate on how many interchanges would be needed along the US 93 corridor between the Kingman Wash Access Road and the soon-to-be constructed interchange with Interstate 40? How about the number of interchanges along US 93 between Interstate 40 and Wickenburg?
While there's no formal estimate, a sensible guess is 7:
- Willow Beach
- Temple Bar Road
- White Rock
- Dolan Springs
- Chloride
- North Golden Valley
- Agua Fria
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on October 28, 2023, 07:54:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 03:08:59 PM
Do they have an estimate on how many interchanges would be needed along the US 93 corridor between the Kingman Wash Access Road and the soon-to-be constructed interchange with Interstate 40? ...
While there's no formal estimate, a sensible guess is 7:
- Willow Beach
- Temple Bar Road
- White Rock
- Dolan Springs
- Chloride
- North Golden Valley
- Agua Fria
Here is my speculated traffic interchanges in the stretch between the state line on the O'Callahan-Tilman Bridge over the Colorado River at Black Canyon and Hoover Dam and Interstate 40 at Kingman (all mileages are unofficial):
Exit | Mile | Road(s) | Places |
-- | 00.00 | NV-AZ state line | |
2 | 01.79 | Kingman Wash Access Rd | Lake Mead National Recreational Area |
14 | 14.17 | Willow Beach Rd [access fee to Willow Beach] | Lake Mead National Recreational Area |
19 | 19.17 | Temple Bar Rd [CR 143] | Temple Bar |
28 | 28.41 | While Hills Rd [CR 145] | White Hills |
40 | 40.45 | Pierce Ferry Rd [CR 25] | Dolan Springs |
45 | 45.33 | Cottonwood Rd [CR 135] | |
51 | 51.12 | Big Wash Rd | |
53 | 52.75 | Chloride Rd [CR 125] | Grasshopper Junction, Chloride |
59 | 58.68 | Mineral Park Rd [CR 235], Legend Ranch Rd | Mineral Park |
65 | 65.01 | Agua Fria Dr, Sundown Dr | |
67 | 67.10 | SR 68 WEST, Arizona Port of Entry | Golden Valley, Bullhead City |
70 | 69.84 | Beale St [Old US 93 SOUTH] | Kingman, Los Angeles (via I-40 West) |
71 | 70.94 | I-40 EAST, US 93 SOUTH | Kingman, Flagstaff, Phoenix |
Two additional optional exits were listed in the original ADOT report I used as a basis for the above list as "Proposed (to be funded by developers)", at Mile 24.5 and Mile 49.50. The exit I list at Big Wash Rd (mile 51.12) would replace the latter of those two. Also, the proposed exit numbers use the existing US 93 reference post mileage, which is the opposite of what will be needed for future Interstate 11.
I'm sure they'll have to build some frontage roads of short, limited length to maintain ranch road access, unless they plan to allow at-grade intersections along the route.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 01, 2023, 01:57:03 PM
I'm sure they'll have to build some frontage roads of short, limited length to maintain ranch road access, unless they plan to allow at-grade intersections along the route.
No, since this will become Interstate 11, no at-grade intersections will remain once full access control is established.
Quote from: SSR_317 on October 24, 2023, 04:51:00 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 03:08:59 PM
Do they have an estimate on how many interchanges would be needed along the US 93 corridor between the Kingman Wash Access Road and the soon-to-be constructed interchange with Interstate 40? How about the number of interchanges along US 93 between Interstate 40 and Wickenburg?
Between Kingman & Nevada, I'm not sure how many interchanges there will be. That would most likely be determined during the NEPA process for converting it to Interstate 11.
As for I-40 (Round Valley Interchange) to the planned Wickenburg Bypass, I saw the plans several years ago online that detailed all the proposed interchanges. Not sure if I have a copy of those plans or not, will search for them in the next several days and let you know. I don't think they are still available online at ADOT. Of course, all such plans are subject to revision, especially given the time that has passed since there were first created. But given the remote, rural nature of US 93 in that area, I doubt they will have to be changed much once AZ gets the money and will to finally implement them.
Here are the data I promised regarding US 93 proposed traffic interchanges between I-40 and Wickenburg. This data was mostly compiled from the following three ADOT source documents:
- US 93, Wikieup to I-40 - Final Location/Design Concept Report (July 2001)
- US 93: Santa Maria River to Wikieup - Final Access Management Study (date unknown - downloaded July 2017)
- US 93, Wickenburg to Santa Maria River - Final Location/Design Concept Report (September 2006)
Please note that the Exit Numbers that I list below are relative to US 93 and not to future Interstate 11. Also, it is important to note that there are only 0.92 miles between US 93 reference posts 140 and 142. A 1.09 mile equivalency adjustment is made at 140.47, which becomes 141.56 (there is no reference post 141). Also please note that Round Valley Road is planned to be connected to a new I-40 service interchange (#69 - Cedar Hills Interchange) to be built 1.75 miles west (near I-40 reference post 70.1) of the current I-40/US 93 SOUTH Interchange to which it is presently connected.
Exit | Mile | Interchange Name | Road(s) | Place(s) |
91 | 91.19 | Round Valley | I-40 | Kingman, Flagstaff |
93 | 93.10 | | new local access roads | |
96 | 95.61 | Hackberry Road | Old US 93 [CR 193], Hackberry Rd | |
99 | 99.10 | Windmill Ranch | new local access roads | |
103 | 102.60 | Bat Wash | new local access roads | |
104 | 104.40 | Antelope Wash | new local access roads | |
107 | 107.40 | Upper Trout Creek | Horse Feathers Ranch Rd, Upper Trout Creek Rd | |
112 | 111.50 | Lower Trout Creek | Lower Trout Creek Rd, Carpenter Rd | |
114 | 113.60 | Hofriders Crossing | Cyprus Rd | |
117 | 116.63 | Diamond Joe Road | Diamond Joe Rd | Carrow-Stephens Ranch (BLM) |
119 | 118.60 | Copper Road | Cyprus Bagdad Copper Rd | |
122 | 122.34 | North Wikieup | Old (existing) US 93 SOUTH, McClure Rd | Wikieup |
125 | 124.67 | South Wikieup | Old (existing) US 93 NORTH, Storing Rd | Wikieup |
128 | 127.90 | Pliocene Cliffs | Caithness Rd (proposed) | |
132 | 132.20 | Signal Road | Signal Rd, Burro Creek Crossing Rd | |
142 | 142.00 | Burro Creek | Burro Creek Campground Rd (via new access road), 17 Mile Rd (via new access road) | Burro Creek Campground |
148 | 148.10 | Rogers Ranch | Rogers Ranch Rd | Nothing |
155 | 154.80 | SR 97 | SR 97 | Bagdad |
163 | 162.70 | Santa Maria River | Santa Maria Ranch Rd (via new access road) | |
171 | 171.30 | Tres Alamos | new local access roads | |
178 | 178.20 | Alamo Road/Date Creek | Alamo Rd (via new access road), Date Creek Ranch Rd (via new access road) | Alamo Lake |
183 | 182.91 | SR 71 | SR 71 | Congress, Aguila |
191 | 190.50 | Wickenurg Bypass North | Old (existing) US 93 SOUTH | Wickenburg |
Quote from: Bobby5280I'm sure they'll have to build some frontage roads of short, limited length to maintain ranch road access, unless they plan to allow at-grade intersections along the route.
Quote from: SSR_317No, since this will become Interstate 11, no at-grade intersections will remain once full access control is established.
I don't think you understood what I meant about
short frontage roads for maintaining ranch road access. Frontage roads would be built in order to prevent ranch roads from intersecting the Interstate main lanes directly. These short frontage roads would be akin to the on/off ramps for a rest area. The frontage roads might run a bit longer
or not. They would be there to prevent situations like some guy in a beat-up pickup hauling a trailer and slowly hanging a hard right turn onto the Interstate main lanes. The ranchers would still have access to certain dirt roads via those limited frontage roads. But when they get back on the Interstate they'll have to go to the next full exit in order to cross over to "turn left" in order to go back home.
In Texas they'll be using this approach in certain locations of I-69 projects in far South Texas.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 03, 2023, 05:41:18 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280I'm sure they'll have to build some frontage roads of short, limited length to maintain ranch road access, unless they plan to allow at-grade intersections along the route.
Quote from: SSR_317No, since this will become Interstate 11, no at-grade intersections will remain once full access control is established.
I don't think you understood what I meant about short frontage roads for maintaining ranch road access. Frontage roads would be built in order to prevent ranch roads from intersecting the Interstate main lanes directly. These short frontage roads would be akin to the on/off ramps for a rest area. The frontage roads might run a bit longer or not. They would be there to prevent situations like some guy in a beat-up pickup hauling a trailer and slowly hanging a hard right turn onto the Interstate main lanes. The ranchers would still have access to certain dirt roads via those limited frontage roads. But when they get back on the Interstate they'll have to go to the next full exit in order to cross over to "turn left" in order to go back home.
In Texas they'll be using this approach in certain locations of I-69 projects in far South Texas.
Sorry I misunderstood your post. Yes, the plan all along was to have Local Access Roads (a/k/a "Frontage Roads") to provide connections to public & private properties and primitive (unmaintained dirt) roads all along the route. These would connect to the interchanges to be built when full access control is implemented, which is (of course) a prerequisite to the Interstate 11 designation. As far as I can determine from the original US 93 upgrade plans, all interchanges to be built will be "full service" junctions that would allow for "all-movements" access. None would be stand-alone slip ramps to/from a frontage or other local road.
Along US 93 between I-40 and about 10 miles north of Wickenburg, there is not a lot of development, and not a lot of private land. Most of the area is owned by either the US Bureau of Land Management (US BLM) or the State of Arizona, and as such is only served by primitive roads. There are a few gated and locked utility maintenance roads along the WAPA electrical transmission lines. The scattered private holdings are mostly large ranching operations, and they would be accessed via proposed new local roads extending from the planned interchanges.
Quote from: SSR_317 on November 07, 2023, 01:39:57 PM
Along US 93 between I-40 and about 10 miles north of Wickenburg, there is not a lot of development, and not a lot of private land. Most of the area is owned by either the US Bureau of Land Management (US BLM) or the State of Arizona, and as such is only served by primitive roads. There are a few gated and locked utility maintenance roads along the WAPA electrical transmission lines. The scattered private holdings are mostly large ranching operations, and they would be accessed via proposed new local roads extending from the planned interchanges.
There are about 30 private ranch and local/county road turnoffs along US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40. I counted them several years ago on one trip, but I don't remember the exact number. Some in or near Wickenburg are not part of what will be I-11, but there are still plenty of them. That doesn't include the necessary interchanges for access to downtown Wickenburg (what is now part of 93), AZ 89, AZ 71, and AZ 97, as well as access to Burro Creek Campground and other similar sites.
Are they actually considering building I-11 thru Wickenburg? The town looks like a pretty serious obstacle.
I'd anticipate them building a loop around Wickenburg. But even doing that wouldn't be easy due to the terrain surrounding the area. The town itself is pretty spread out as well. It doesn't look like there would be any easy path for I-11 to take through that area without clearing a decent number of properties and/or doing some deep cuts into hillsides.
Interstate 11 will likely turn to the south prior to the existing AZ 89 (former US 89)/US 93 intersection. This 2014 Corridor Analysis study from 2014 should give more information on Interstate 11's proposed alignment through Arizona: https://sonoraninstitute.org/files/pdf/proposed-interstate-11-analysis-casa-grande-to-the-mike-ocallaghan-pat-tillman-memorial-bridge-02042014.pdf.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2023, 12:47:44 PM
Are they actually considering building I-11 thru Wickenburg? The town looks like a pretty serious obstacle.
I'd anticipate them building a loop around Wickenburg. But even doing that wouldn't be easy due to the terrain surrounding the area. The town itself is pretty spread out as well. It doesn't look like there would be any easy path for I-11 to take through that area without clearing a decent number of properties and/or doing some deep cuts into hillsides.
No, it won't go through Wickenburg. It'll veer off to the west right before AZ 89, then go south to (at least) I-10.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2023, 10:05:48 PM
There are about 30 private ranch and local/county road turnoffs along US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40. I counted them several years ago on one trip, but I don't remember the exact number. Some in or near Wickenburg are not part of what will be I-11, but there are still plenty of them. That doesn't include the necessary interchanges for access to downtown Wickenburg (what is now part of 93), AZ 89, AZ 71, and AZ 97, as well as access to Burro Creek Campground and other similar sites.
The three documents I cited in my separate post above detail all such access points. There will be one of four outcomes possible for each once full access control is implemented (other than being directly part of a proposed future interchange):
1 - Future access via newly constructed local roads which connect to one of the future interchanges.
2 - Gated & locked RIRO access, to be used mainly for utility (or USBLM) primitive roads (such as those that run along the WAPA Electrical Transmission Line corridors).
3 - The existing access road to a property has a second outlet that will not involved in the US 93 access control change or will intersect one of the new access roads constructed for it. In these cases the existing US 93 access will be permanently removed.
4 - ADOT buys the access rights for the property (or the property itself) and access is to US 93 permanently terminated.
Of course in a normal situation, there would also be a 5th possibility: that of a grade separation structure being built to replace direct access for such points. But because of the isolated, rural nature of this area, there are none scheduled to be built along this stretch of US 93/fI-11 except for those at planned new interchanges (and the two existing ones at I-40 and at SR 71).
CORRECTION: There will be ONE grade separation in this section, for Chicken Springs Road west of Wikieup.
Modified on 2023/11/12 at 15:03 EST by author to add correction.
In the past week, Arizona DOT has advertised the construction contract (TRACS H799301C) for the first phase of the redeveloped West Kingman Traffic Interchange (https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange). This establishes the free-flowing connection between US 93 and I-40 on the west side of Kingman by building a new roadway connecting the two via ramps that will serve traffic running between Las Vegas and Phoenix. Ramps to handle the Las Vegas-California movements are to be built in a later phase as funding permits.
As this project by itself will not remove the brief overlap of US 93 and I-40 through Kingman, I don't know if the new interchange will eventually become the west end of an I-11/I-40 concurrency.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2023, 05:49:54 PM
As this project by itself will not remove the brief overlap of US 93 and I-40 through Kingman,...
The overlap is about 25 miles, not a significant portion of I-40, but not brief, either.
Quote...I don't know if the new interchange will eventually become the west end of an I-11/I-40 concurrency.
AFAIK, it will be. That's the main reason for its existence. Eliminating the Beale Street Bottleneck is an added bonus.
Interestingly, ADOT isn't leaving up room for I-11 shields on the BGS's.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2023, 05:49:54 PM
In the past week, Arizona DOT has advertised the construction contract (TRACS H799301C) for the first phase of the redeveloped West Kingman Traffic Interchange (https://azdot.gov/projects/northwest-district-projects/i-40us-93-west-kingman-traffic-interchange). This establishes the free-flowing connection between US 93 and I-40 on the west side of Kingman by building a new roadway connecting the two via ramps that will serve traffic running between Las Vegas and Phoenix. Ramps to handle the Las Vegas-California movements are to be built in a later phase as funding permits.
As this project by itself will not remove the brief overlap of US 93 and I-40 through Kingman, I don't know if the new interchange will eventually become the west end of an I-11/I-40 concurrency.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on December 25, 2023, 07:44:31 PM
Interestingly, ADOT isn't leaving up room for I-11 shields on the BGS's.
Did they actually let the signing sheets yet, or is this just based on the video? I would imagine the signs in the video are for demo purposes only and won't reflect exactly what is eventually signed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 25, 2023, 11:42:13 PMDid they actually let the signing sheets yet, or is this just based on the video? I would imagine the signs in the video are for demo purposes only and won't reflect exactly what is eventually signed.
From the plans set:
(https://i.imgur.com/CHRQfbO.png)
Other sheets show a similar lack of room for I-11 shields.
Maybe it is because there are still some at-grade intersections with stoplights along US 93 between Kingman and Hoover Dam, or they just have not gotten around to scheduling the upgrading of US 93 to I-11 yet.
Yeah I think they're still a ways out from being ready to make US 93 into I-11. Multiple intersections along the way up to the Dam. It's not just a matter of the I-40 interchange and swapping some signs.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 26, 2023, 12:36:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 25, 2023, 11:42:13 PMDid they actually let the signing sheets yet, or is this just based on the video? I would imagine the signs in the video are for demo purposes only and won't reflect exactly what is eventually signed.
From the plans set:
(https://i.imgur.com/CHRQfbO.png)
Other sheets show a similar lack of room for I-11 shields.
Wow, that APL is cramped! Get rid of the exit tab, and one would assume it's a CalTrans sign... (or maybe not... there's something elegant about how it's saving space, while IMO CalTrans signs are more of an ugly cramped)
If they're able to install I-11 shields on those overhead signs within the next 10 years I'm sure they'll just swap out the US-93 shields. Well, that is unless the highway shields are printed into the sign face background (as opposed to being separate metal panels attached the green backgrounds). If the shields, lettering, etc is all "baked" into the green background they'll have to replace the entire sign face when it needs updating. That may not happen until the full "Y" interchange with I-11 and I-40 in Kingman is completed.
Quote from: vdeane on December 26, 2023, 10:57:14 AMWow, that APL is cramped! Get rid of the exit tab, and one would assume it's a CalTrans sign... (or maybe not... there's something elegant about how it's saving space, while IMO CalTrans signs are more of an ugly cramped)
I'm not a fan of the use of Series D to secure 20" UC/15" LC legend, but this use of thinner type has been Arizona DOT's SOP for system interchanges since midway through their Clearview era, when they used 4-W in lieu of 5-W.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 26, 2023, 12:51:22 PMIf they're able to install I-11 shields on those overhead signs within the next 10 years I'm sure they'll just swap out the US-93 shields. Well, that is unless the highway shields are printed into the sign face background (as opposed to being separate metal panels attached the green backgrounds). The the shields, lettering, etc is all "baked" into the green background they'll have to replace the entire sign face when it needs updating. That may not happen until the full "Y" interchange with I-11 and I-40 in Kingman is completed.
I
think ADOT has now standardized on direct-applied copy, including for shields. If that is correct, these signs could be patched when the time comes, if they aren't already due for replacement. However, this would involve dropping US 93 from the signs, and I don't know whether ADOT would go for the KDOT approach of signing "minor" routes (which can include US highways) using trailblazers at major interchanges. On the Nevada side, new signs intended for installation in the I-11 corridor have included space for I-11 shields without the need to omit any existing routes other than I-515.
(https://i.imgur.com/3gocOjR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RhSlChf.png)
Once I-11 is fully built in Arizona (or at least south to Wickenburg), is the assumption that US 93 gets truncated to Arrolime and no longer signed anywhere in the Vegas Valley?
Since it will be a long time before all of US-93 in Arizona is upgraded to Interstate standards, does anyone think that there is a possibility of I-11 being signed in bits and pieces, say, like I-69?
I think there's a possibility, depending on what section(s) are completed early on. If ADOT does a full freeway conversion starting at the Nevada state line and working south, it's more likely than if for instance a Phoenix freeway bypass is completed early on.
I wouldn't expect Interstate 11 to be signposted along the US 93 corridor until more significant portions of 93 are upgraded to freeway standards. When Interstate 11 is signposted, I too expect the US 93 signs to be eliminated, so the signs not having space for both 11 and 93 shields will become a moot point.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 01:35:03 PM
I wouldn't expect Interstate 11 to be signposted along the US 93 corridor until more significant portions of 93 are upgraded to freeway standards. When Interstate 11 is signposted, I too expect the US 93 signs to be eliminated, so the signs not having space for both 11 and 93 shields will become a moot point.
Why would they drop the US-93 signs? They have them on the existing I-11, I-515, and I-15 concurrencies. It's not as if it's a minor road, or is always concurrent with an Interstate. After Vegas, it goes all the way to Canada on its own.
Quote from: pderocco on December 27, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 01:35:03 PM
I wouldn't expect Interstate 11 to be signposted along the US 93 corridor until more significant portions of 93 are upgraded to freeway standards. When Interstate 11 is signposted, I too expect the US 93 signs to be eliminated, so the signs not having space for both 11 and 93 shields will become a moot point.
Why would they drop the US-93 signs? They have them on the existing I-11, I-515, and I-15 concurrencies. It's not as if it's a minor road, or is always concurrent with an Interstate. After Vegas, it goes all the way to Canada on its own.
It's not like US 93 would exist south of its overlap with I-11 once the interstate is fully built out. What would be the point of keeping it around south of where it splits off from I-15?
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2023, 10:01:11 PM
Quote from: pderocco on December 27, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 01:35:03 PM
I wouldn't expect Interstate 11 to be signposted along the US 93 corridor until more significant portions of 93 are upgraded to freeway standards. When Interstate 11 is signposted, I too expect the US 93 signs to be eliminated, so the signs not having space for both 11 and 93 shields will become a moot point.
Why would they drop the US-93 signs? They have them on the existing I-11, I-515, and I-15 concurrencies. It's not as if it's a minor road, or is always concurrent with an Interstate. After Vegas, it goes all the way to Canada on its own.
It's not like US 93 would exist south of its overlap with I-11 once the interstate is fully built out. What would be the point of keeping it around south of where it splits off from I-15?
Good point. I suppose it comes down to the order they do things in. While they could construct I-11 in disjoint pieces, they won't turn US-93 into disjoint pieces, so a concurrency could exist for quite a while.
I wonder what is considered more important re commercial traffic, I-11 between Hoover Dam and Kingman, or between I-40 and I-10. The former would certainly be easier.
A counterargument is that there are a few miles of US-85 signed near the Mexican border, despite a 700-mile unsigned concurrency with I-25 separating that from the rest of US-85 up to Canada. I don't think there are any real rules.
Quote from: pderocco on December 27, 2023, 11:22:43 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2023, 10:01:11 PM
Quote from: pderocco on December 27, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 01:35:03 PM
I wouldn't expect Interstate 11 to be signposted along the US 93 corridor until more significant portions of 93 are upgraded to freeway standards. When Interstate 11 is signposted, I too expect the US 93 signs to be eliminated, so the signs not having space for both 11 and 93 shields will become a moot point.
Why would they drop the US-93 signs? They have them on the existing I-11, I-515, and I-15 concurrencies. It's not as if it's a minor road, or is always concurrent with an Interstate. After Vegas, it goes all the way to Canada on its own.
It's not like US 93 would exist south of its overlap with I-11 once the interstate is fully built out. What would be the point of keeping it around south of where it splits off from I-15?
Good point. I suppose it comes down to the order they do things in. While they could construct I-11 in disjoint pieces, they won't turn US-93 into disjoint pieces, so a concurrency could exist for quite a while.
I wonder what is considered more important re commercial traffic, I-11 between Hoover Dam and Kingman, or between I-40 and I-10. The former would certainly be easier.
A counterargument is that there are a few miles of US-85 signed near the Mexican border, despite a 700-mile unsigned concurrency with I-25 separating that from the rest of US-85 up to Canada. I don't think there are any real rules.
I could see Arizona changing US 93 from Wickenburg to I-40 to AZ 93 once I-11 makes it down from Vegas to Kingman. After all, they unnecessarily truncated US 89 to Flagstaff and changed the portion south of Ash Fork to AZ 89.
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2023, 10:01:11 PM
Quote from: pderocco on December 27, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 01:35:03 PM
I wouldn't expect Interstate 11 to be signposted along the US 93 corridor until more significant portions of 93 are upgraded to freeway standards. When Interstate 11 is signposted, I too expect the US 93 signs to be eliminated, so the signs not having space for both 11 and 93 shields will become a moot point.
Why would they drop the US-93 signs? They have them on the existing I-11, I-515, and I-15 concurrencies. It's not as if it's a minor road, or is always concurrent with an Interstate. After Vegas, it goes all the way to Canada on its own.
It's not like US 93 would exist south of its overlap with I-11 once the interstate is fully built out. What would be the point of keeping it around south of where it splits off from I-15?
It HAS to be decommissioned because it VIOLATES THE GRID by going EAST OF US-91
...is what Fictional Highways would have said if it was around in 1954.
Right now, I'd be satisified with ADOT just paving the damn thing. The southbound lanes between Hoover Dam and Kingman were in pretty rough shape last time I was there, back in May.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2023, 06:48:03 AM
It HAS to be decommissioned because it VIOLATES THE GRID by going EAST OF US-91
...is what Fictional Highways would have said if it was around in 1954.
Right now, I'd be satisified with ADOT just paving the damn thing. The southbound lanes between Hoover Dam and Kingman were in pretty rough shape last time I was there, back in May.
In the same vein, "Why pick I-11 if it exists east of I-15?" is the question that Fictional Highways might be asking nowadays. I'd say we should be glad that at least it's not I-13!
BTW, US 91 has not existed in NV since it was decommissioned 50 years ago. And not acknowledging that I-11 will eventually cross the state line is an idiotic move on ADOT's part.
Quote from: Henry on December 28, 2023, 10:34:08 PM
BTW, US 91 has not existed in NV since it was decommissioned 50 years ago.
That's the joke...
Quote from: Henry on December 28, 2023, 10:34:08 PM
I'd say we should be glad that at least it's not I-13!
NDOT has better sense than to try and get an I-13 built in Las Vegas of all places. (11 has a more positive connotation—in craps, it's a win for the pass line on a come-out roll. See, I've been studying for my Nevada citizenship exam!)
Article about the West Kingman Interchange: https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/traffic/new-u-s-93-i-40-interchange-planned-for-route-between-las-vegas-phoenix-2973288/?fbclid=IwAR3Gdr6mBqr5IbVVPUMcF_aS3ZS5ZqaRQD8iyMo7QbWclCmPnoOrDrDb7L0_aem_AQF3eeOGLMZ9d1fcPgu3oI2s99_lcI4jw-uvNk5juTw0wy7AtJ8w6smGt5guEON96LU
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I guess they don't plan to upgrade it to I-11 any time soon then.
Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2024, 09:02:52 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I guess they don't plan to upgrade it to I-11 any time soon then.
Or maybe they're looking to build a bypass of the town, which may explain the signal on the current road.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I have never driven US 93 south of Nevada, so this question is just from looking at Google Maps:
Where is this Bonanza Road crossing of US 93? I traced 93's route north of I-40 and did not see it. I very well may have missed it
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 07, 2024, 01:21:45 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I have never driven US 93 south of Nevada, so this question is just from looking at Google Maps:
Where is this Bonanza Road crossing of US 93? I traced 93's route north of I-40 and did not see it. I very well may have missed it
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tar5iPU4HFiELH1s9
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2024, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 07, 2024, 01:21:45 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I have never driven US 93 south of Nevada, so this question is just from looking at Google Maps:
Where is this Bonanza Road crossing of US 93? I traced 93's route north of I-40 and did not see it. I very well may have missed it
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tar5iPU4HFiELH1s9
I was up that way in late January. Don't bother with them. Gas up in Kingman if going north, and in Nevada if going south. They were at $4.59/gallon, while Kingman was at $3.65 and Las Vegas was around $4. Those stations were always price-gougers, although not as bad as Wickieup (near $6/gallon).
I believe there were several really bad accidents there with it being an uncontrolled intersection so ADOT got the signal installed to help out in the short term. Don't think there's much to read into in terms of ADOT's intentions for I-11 later on.
Quote from: Sonic99 on March 07, 2024, 07:27:47 PM
I believe there were several really bad accidents there with it being an uncontrolled intersection so ADOT got the signal installed to help out in the short term. Don't think there's much to read into in terms of ADOT's intentions for I-11 later on.
Yep it's a short to medium term fix. Enough room there, going by the image, to construct a tight diamond interchange, with MSE retaining walls, with 11 and US 93 going over Bonanza, on current alignment.
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2024, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 07, 2024, 01:21:45 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I have never driven US 93 south of Nevada, so this question is just from looking at Google Maps:
Where is this Bonanza Road crossing of US 93? I traced 93's route north of I-40 and did not see it. I very well may have missed it
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tar5iPU4HFiELH1s9
North of Kingman? That's an odd way to describe this location. Especially since there's a Bonanza Dr
in Kingman NE of downtown. I'd never have found the right one without that link.
I would think a bypass would be more likely. There's a lot of "free" land out there.
Again, judging by image, there is frankly not much there. More cost effective and sensible to stay on alignment.
It might actually be cheaper to just upgrade on the existing alignment thru that spot. Attempting to bypass would result is significantly more new road to build.
Quote from: pderocco on March 07, 2024, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2024, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 07, 2024, 01:21:45 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2024, 08:16:40 PM
There's a traffic signal at Bonanza Road north of Kingman now. Fun.
I have never driven US 93 south of Nevada, so this question is just from looking at Google Maps:
Where is this Bonanza Road crossing of US 93? I traced 93's route north of I-40 and did not see it. I very well may have missed it
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tar5iPU4HFiELH1s9
North of Kingman? That's an odd way to describe this location. Especially since there's a Bonanza Dr in Kingman NE of downtown. I'd never have found the right one without that link.
The ZIP Code for that section of Mohave County is 86445, which covers Willow Beach and White Hills. Despite what Google Maps says, it is not a Kingman ZIP Code.
QuoteI would think a bypass would be more likely. There's a lot of "free" land out there.
Last I heard, the upgrade of US 93 to I-11 north of AZ 68 will use the existing roadway, with pavement improvements (badly needed!), frontage roads as necessary, and several interchanges. I haven't heard about any planned alternatives in recent years (but correct me if I'm wrong).
The entire US 93 corridor in Arizona goes through some truly desolate land. Outside of a short bypass of Wikieup, both segments of US 93 between the Arizona/Nevada border and Wickenburg could mostly be upgraded into Interstate 11 on its existing alignment.
Quote from: pderocco on March 07, 2024, 10:45:24 PM
North of Kingman? That's an odd way to describe this location.
I'm not really sure how else you'd describe that location besides "north of Kingman" other than maybe "south of Boulder City". Maybe you could describe it relative to Willow Beach (apparently that's the postal city for 86445, with Kingman and White Hills listed as "acceptable"), but given that US 93 doesn't actually serve Willow Beach (which as far as I can tell is just a beach and not an actual settlement), that seems awkward too. "In rural Mohave County" is true, but not really precise.
I dunno, I'm new to this whole living in the West thing, so if there's a way a local would describe this that I'm not grasping, I'm all ears.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2024, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: pderocco on March 07, 2024, 10:45:24 PM
North of Kingman? That's an odd way to describe this location.
I'm not really sure how else you'd describe that location besides "north of Kingman" other than maybe "south of Boulder City". Maybe you could describe it relative to Willow Beach (apparently that's the postal city for 86445, with Kingman and White Hills listed as "acceptable"), but given that US 93 doesn't actually serve Willow Beach (which as far as I can tell is just a beach and not an actual settlement), that seems awkward too. "In rural Mohave County" is true, but not really precise.
I dunno, I'm new to this whole living in the West thing, so if there's a way a local would describe this that I'm not grasping, I'm all ears.
Yeah, there really is no good way, if there isn't clearly a town or community name on the map. I didn't mean to sound critical. It was just a coincidence that I searched on Bonanza Dr and came up with something else much closer to Kingman. I'd probably describe this location as "south of Hoover Dam", or "25 miles south of Hoover Dam".
I wonder if they'll soon need a light at the Pilot truck stop just south of there, where CR-145 leads to a community called White Hills. I don't know if that generates any meaningful traffic, though. And eventually, if they build a freeway to Interstate standards, they'll have to choose one place for the interchange, and build frontage roads for all the abutters. So it might be easier to bypass and then call the old road BR-11.
I take it you guys aren't a fan of White Hills? Truth be told I'm more of a Chloride and Santa Claus man myself.
The widening through Wickenburg seems to be nearing completion. North of Vulture Mine traffic was now separated with NB/SB each on their respective own side of the median on the new road. One lane was closed on each so it still only had one lane in each direction in use, looked like for some finishing work on the roundabouts. One part of the segment south of Vulture Mine has a bit of work still but looks like the project should be complete in about 60 days or left.
Then I believe they'll start on the segment north of Wickenburg Ranch.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 09, 2024, 03:22:00 PMThe entire US 93 corridor in Arizona goes through some truly desolate land. Outside of a short bypass of Wikieup, both segments of US 93 between the Arizona/Nevada border and Wickenburg could mostly be upgraded into Interstate 11 on its existing alignment.
Most of it north of Wickenburg is being built over the current US 93. In fact, most of it between I-40 and AZ 89 is done, other than interchanges and ranch turnoffs. Exceptions include the potential (not yet officially defined) bypass of Wickieup, the Beale Street Bottleneck Bypass in Kingman, and the 2-lane Joshua Forest Highway segment where most of the accidents occur.
The design for an interchange was completed four years ago for Pierce Ferry Road
https://azdot.gov/planning/transportation-studies/us-93-pierce-ferry-road-feasibility-study
Then right after that study, they installed left turn lanes.
If those plans are still alive, Alt 1 looks obviously better because would take less work to turn it into a full interchange when the time comes. And a flyover seems de trop for those meager traffic levels.