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Author Topic: Ohio  (Read 247106 times)

seicer

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1200 on: November 30, 2023, 05:03:52 PM »

When US 19/Corridor L was constructed, the area experienced some of the nation's fastest growth, with Beckley briefly ranking in the top ten for population increase, largely due to the booming coal industry and the opening of new mines.

However, Sandor overlooks the fact that these corridors and interstates were built primarily to connect major population centers within the state, similar to developments in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and pretty much every state in the nation. While there's debate over whether all these routes needed to be four-lane highways, the initial two-lane construction of Corridor L and Turnpike were quickly proven inadequate, becoming congested and hazardous. Consequently, the state now avoids building two-lane roads that might become overwhelmed within a few decades, with US 52 in southwest West Virginia being an exception due to lower traffic growth projections and very high construction costs.

It's clear that these corridors and interstates have facilitated land development and enabled people to live in more affordable areas while commuting to jobs, contributing to lower accident and death rates. But broadly dismissing any infrastructure improvement in West Virginia is ignoring the basics of why migration occurs in the first place. The trend of migration from Appalachia to urban centers (in Ohio, notably) began decades before the first interstate was even finished in West Virginia, in the 1940s, as coal mines mechanized and jobs were lost. At that time, people primarily relocated by train and automobile. The availability of a four-lane highway isn't the sole factor in migration decisions; people will move to where jobs are available.

Hot Rod Hootenanny

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1201 on: December 01, 2023, 01:01:38 AM »



It's a lot harder for Sherrod Brown, J.D. Vance and Joe Manchin to bring home the bacon for Appalachian highway expansion since the public is no longer sold on it as the kind of surefire winner it was considered in the '60s '70s and '80s since the results aren't there. They can't stick their neck out for it even with how powerful Manchin seemed only a year or two ago.

All those highways have done is make it easier to leave Kentucky, West Virginia, and SE Ohio for more metropolitan locations (D.C., Cincy, Columbus, Pittsburgh for example)

OK... this is nonsense on another scale of absurdity. Drive down the US19 corridor and tell me with a straight face it had no impact Fayette and Raleigh counties in WV.

So you got the feds to pay for a big bridge along US 19. What's your point?
Population for both counties peaked in 1950. And other for a minor rebound 30 years later (I guess when US 19 was completed) their populations have decreased and gotten older.
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seicer

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1202 on: December 01, 2023, 08:59:17 AM »

Using your logic, we shouldn't build highways to alleviate safety concerns or to spur economic development. That would leave out a substantial number of highways in Ohio, but of course, you conveniently leave that out again. In other threads, you also clamor for building Interstates 73 and 74 in Ohio, the grandest of all "pork" projects, but this would require West Virginia completing their segment to interstate standards, which again, they are not. That's hypocritical of you, considering you've been railing against any modern highway spending in West Virginia.

You also ignore that highways like Corridor L (US 19) and Corridor D (OH 32/US 50) receive dedicated funding from Congress and appropriations to have these roads built. Sure, the "feds" helped build the New River Gorge Bridge, but they also helped build the new Interstate 90 bridges over the Cuyahoga River. What's your point?

Buck87

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1203 on: December 01, 2023, 09:43:27 AM »


That intersection has been dangerous for years, so it's good to see the improvements being made. OH 601/Greenwich Milan Townline Road has always had a large traffic volume as a quasi-bypass of Norwalk for US 250 WB/OH 13 NB traffic.

Indeed, and I have a cousin that was involved in an accident there just this past summer, luckily no injuries to anyone. She was westbound on 18 and someone going straight south from 601 to Greenwich Milan pulled out in front of her and she blasted their quarter panel at at about 60. 

Quote
My question is if they're running those oversized loads like that truck above, and they are big enough that they need to take a "notch" out of these roundabouts, how do they make the corner in Milan at OH 113? It seems like a truck that long would have quite a few difficulties maneuvering there.

Very carefully! I found a video of it maneuvering this turn here:
https://www.cleveland19.com/2019/11/26/orion-spacecraft-transport-could-slow-traffic-it-travels-sandusky/

There were several places along the route that had to temporarily have traffic lights removed to make clearance, and all utility lines that needed it were raised in the years leading up to this move. It also would not fit under the Ohio Turnpike and Norfolk Southern underpasses on US 250 in Avery, so they used OH 13 instead, which crosses both on overpasses.   
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Rothman

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1204 on: December 01, 2023, 11:12:15 AM »

Building roads for economic development is a fool's errand in a lot of cases (albeit not all, such as when the Army holds a knife to a DOT's throat to build or have BRAC descend...(I-781)).  I can think of many more new roads that didn't realize their intended potential than roads that did.
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Black-Man

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1205 on: December 01, 2023, 01:11:46 PM »

So you got the feds to pay for a big bridge along US 19. What's your point?
Population for both counties peaked in 1950. And other for a minor rebound 30 years later (I guess when US 19 was completed) their populations have decreased and gotten older.

One of the mandates of the ARC was to build highways to economically revitalize areas (succeeded with US19) which have been historically neglected by the federal government regarding highway construction. When these areas provided the resources to build industry for areas such as Ohio, they received little for infrastructure. Interstate highways weren't completed in West Virginia until the late 80's.

And before you spew more fallacies, you should know the Raleigh/Fayette areas are growing due to the popularity of the new National Park. And really... are there any areas losing population faster than the Cleveland area? Pot meet kettle.
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GCrites80s

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1206 on: December 01, 2023, 07:40:29 PM »

The Cleveland metro's population has remained fairly steady since 2000 and is up almost 100,000 people from its 1990 trough:

https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22959/cleveland/population

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seicer

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1207 on: December 01, 2023, 07:54:08 PM »

The Opportunity Corridor, a 3-mile surface road built in Cleveland at a cost of $331 million, is a notable example. While it has eased traffic in the city, its primary goal was to stimulate economic development. Contrary to Sandor's viewpoint, such investment in a city experiencing economic and demographic decline might seem excessive, especially given that, to date, it has only directly led to the relocation of a police station.

In contrast, Corridor D (OH Route 32/US Route 50) and Corridor B-1 (US Route 52 and OH Route 823) offer a different perspective. These routes, despite their construction, haven't significantly boosted population growth or driven major industrial or commercial development, particularly outside of Clermont and Brown counties in the Cincinnati metro area.

This discussion highlights that highways are constructed for various reasons in every state. The Appalachian Development Highway System (ADHS) corridors, for example, aim to enhance access to markets and foster growth in Appalachia. These corridors often receive specific funding from Congress. It's therefore unreasonable to single out West Virginia for receiving federal funding when Ohio benefits similarly.

Furthermore, without counterarguments or data from Sandor on the inefficacy of these corridors, it's important to consider the broader impact of the ADHS. According to a 2017 analysis, the ADHS has significantly boosted the regional economy, including job creation, worker income, business sales, and reduced travel time. This analysis estimates over 168,000 jobs created or maintained, a $9 billion increase in the gross regional product, and a saving of 231 million travel hours annually. The completion of the ADHS is projected to create an additional 47,000 jobs and add $8.7 billion in goods and services annually across 13 Appalachian states."

For more detailed information on the economic impact of the ADHS, refer to the technical report by the Appalachian Regional Commission: https://www.arc.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/ADHSEconomicAnalysisTechnicalReportJuly2017.pdf

thenetwork

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1208 on: December 02, 2023, 01:15:25 PM »

The Opportunity Corridor, a 3-mile surface road built in Cleveland at a cost of $331 million, is a notable example. While it has eased traffic in the city, its primary goal was to stimulate economic development. Contrary to Sandor's viewpoint, such investment in a city experiencing economic and demographic decline might seem excessive, especially given that, to date, it has only directly led to the relocation of a police station.


However, in the case of the Opportunity Parkway, development isn't going to spring up overnight. the parkway was routed through dead areas (abandoned railroad tracks, abandoned buildings and factories, and areas with little to no existing housing that may have been present decades ago) that need to be cleared, environmentally cleaned up and made ready for development, which takes years.  Then COVID struck in 2020 while the project was going on and pretty much most residential and commercial development stopped due to COVID laws and product shortages.

I'd say give it 5-10 years and a lot of the space around the OC will be filled with new residential and commercial and repurposed public green space, parks, etc.


And as far as widening SR-2 all the way to SR-58, it may have been needed decades ago, but now that there is a SR-58 exit on the turnpike portion of I-90, most southbound travelers are willing to "bypass" Amherst traffic for a 50 cent toll (or whatever it becomes when they flip to the new tolling system) is pretty much a "wash" as it saves a few miles and a few sips of gasoline.  SR-2's traffic counts between Elyria and Amherst will likely be looked at and reconsidered down the road when conditions warrant.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 01:28:06 PM by thenetwork »
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Buck87

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1209 on: December 05, 2023, 10:15:47 PM »



That's interesting. The OH 4 - OH 113 intersection probably was only signalized due to that extreme skew. There seems to be room to put the roundabout to the east of the intersection and avoid much taking on the western developed side of the intersection. It also remains to be seen if it's a 5-legged roundabout to accommodate the local Edmonds Road intersection just north, or if they'll just turn that into a cul-de-sac.



I was able to briefly see a print out of a possible alignment for this roundabout, and took this pic of it before I had to give it back (not sure how well it will show up on here)

Anyway, this project has a 2027 date for construction funding according to the current STIP.





« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 10:21:50 PM by Buck87 »
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Buck87

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1210 on: December 14, 2023, 02:38:56 PM »

Another future roundabout of note will be at the intersection of OH 269 and Danbury Rd in Ottawa County, just east of the northern OH 2/OH 269 interchange. If I'm understanding the STIP correctly this will be constructed in 2025.

This has always been a fascinating intersection to me, built  like an at grade interchange, with stop signs on the ramps that cross the thru movement 269 ramps: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5055456,-82.8297984,3a,75y,302.04h,83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6qudxKS2IIRgyzG9TGeDcg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu




There should be plenty of room to build the roundabout inside the footprint of the original configuration, while possibly leaving at least one of the right turns as its own separate ramp bypassing the roundabout. I could see the southbound 269 ramp staying where it is with the roundabout going south of it. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.




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PColumbus73

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1211 on: December 22, 2023, 01:02:47 PM »

Building roads for economic development is a fool's errand in a lot of cases (albeit not all, such as when the Army holds a knife to a DOT's throat to build or have BRAC descend...(I-781)).  I can think of many more new roads that didn't realize their intended potential than roads that did.

Agreed, 'if you build it, they will come' doesn't necessarily apply to highway construction, a new highway isn't going to do much good if it's not connecting places people are already trying to get to. I think when more and more people (politicians) view highway projects as 'economic development' engines, then wouldn't it dilute their potency?
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roadman65

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1212 on: January 07, 2024, 08:11:53 PM »

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/about-us/news/district-6/i-70-closed-bridge-hit

I just found this on the news feed happening this weekend. If it's been posted already, then obviously someone else saw it and I didn't find it in a post.
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Buck87

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1213 on: January 07, 2024, 08:17:25 PM »

Dang. Though it least it happened in a spot where the through traffic detours are pretty easy, full freeway, and not too far out of the way.
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TempoNick

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1214 on: January 08, 2024, 11:21:38 AM »

Dang. Though it least it happened in a spot where the through traffic detours are pretty easy, full freeway, and not too far out of the way.

Traffic was a mess yesterday afternoon I can only imagine what it's like today.

Edit: I-70 is now open, but looks like replacement of the 4th Street bridge for the crossroads project might have to be expedited. 😂

https://abc6onyourside.com/amp/news/local/semi-crashes-into-1-70-overpass-area-closed-long-term-central-columbus-ohio-january-2024
« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 12:09:00 PM by TempoNick »
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GCrites80s

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1215 on: January 08, 2024, 09:22:50 PM »

That one was getting rusty! It made Columbus look "older".
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amroad17

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1216 on: January 11, 2024, 06:34:57 AM »

While looking at GSV yesterday, I see that Ohio DOT has a sign replacement project on US 35 in Gallia County.  Exit numbers are being added to the four interchanges along US 35 (160, 165, 169, 173) plus the mileage signs are also being replaced and updated with the correct mileages.

A couple of mileage signs…
Aug 2022: https://maps.app.goo.gl/q4PDpprQC7RGGGRV6
Jun 2023: https://maps.app.goo.gl/XvSH2dDxdwqdodrg6
Aug 2022: https://maps.app.goo.gl/cB2YPAM6vEHM8LPr5
Jun 2023: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pCWew25uXsNuEdDG7

Example of new exit sign (with old one still up): https://maps.app.goo.gl/otZwWawiU6CYApkJ7

All new signs are in Highway Gothic. (yesssss!!!!!  :thumbsup:)

I guess the rest of US 35 in Ross and Jackson Counties will be upgraded eventually.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 06:38:33 AM by amroad17 »
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seicer

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1217 on: January 11, 2024, 09:25:43 AM »

They are doing overhead sign structure replacements in Chillicothe, so I'm not sure if ODOT is installing new signs as part of that project.

TempoNick

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1218 on: January 11, 2024, 06:14:35 PM »

That one was getting rusty! It made Columbus look "older".

I don't understand why either ODOT or the city doesn't keep those things painted so they are looking nice. They don't have to paint the whole thing. Just paint the beams that the public sees. ODOT can do it the right way later on when it's time to send the professional painters out to sandblast and repaint everything.

It shouldn't be that expensive to just spray a coat of paint on the front side of two steel beams. You don't have to sandblast it, just paint it. Is that so complicated?
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GCrites80s

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1219 on: January 11, 2024, 06:44:00 PM »

I saw that beam sitting in the staging area at I-71 and Frank Road yesterday. At least what looked like it.
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Bitmapped

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1220 on: January 31, 2024, 10:24:10 PM »

The draft 2024 TRAC project list is out: https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580/01-31-2024+January+2024+TRAC+Draft+List.pdf

Two notable projects stand out in the Tier II - Preliminary Engineering tier:
- Widening OH 161 from US 62 to OH 37 to 6 lanes. This is for the Intel megasite. This section of freeway is less than 15 years old to begin with.
- Widening the two-lane section of US 22 in Harrison County between the Cadiz bypass and SR 151 at Hopedale, where it widens back to 4-lanes heading east to the state line. This Super-2 portion was built on a new alignment in 1962 at the same time as the adjoining parts. Traffic counts have been close to 8500 VPD in recent years and aren't significantly different than the adjoining 4-lane parts, so it makes sense to widen this part to complete the corridor to Cadiz.
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Great Lakes Roads

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1221 on: January 31, 2024, 11:15:24 PM »

The draft 2024 TRAC project list is out: https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580/01-31-2024+January+2024+TRAC+Draft+List.pdf

Two notable projects stand out in the Tier II - Preliminary Engineering tier:
- Widening OH 161 from US 62 to OH 37 to 6 lanes. This is for the Intel megasite. This section of freeway is less than 15 years old to begin with.
- Widening the two-lane section of US 22 in Harrison County between the Cadiz bypass and SR 151 at Hopedale, where it widens back to 4-lanes heading east to the state line. This Super-2 portion was built on a new alignment in 1962 at the same time as the adjoining parts. Traffic counts have been close to 8500 VPD in recent years and aren't significantly different than the adjoining 4-lane parts, so it makes sense to widen this part to complete the corridor to Cadiz.

It's also great to see ODOT add a bunch of widening projects for I-70 for Tier II! (Indiana State Line to US 127, Palmer Road to SR 158, and Upper Lewisburg-Salem Road to SR 48)
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TempoNick

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1222 on: February 01, 2024, 01:37:37 AM »

The draft 2024 TRAC project list is out: https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580/01-31-2024+January+2024+TRAC+Draft+List.pdf

Two notable projects stand out in the Tier II - Preliminary Engineering tier:
- Widening OH 161 from US 62 to OH 37 to 6 lanes. This is for the Intel megasite. This section of freeway is less than 15 years old to begin with.
- Widening the two-lane section of US 22 in Harrison County between the Cadiz bypass and SR 151 at Hopedale, where it widens back to 4-lanes heading east to the state line. This Super-2 portion was built on a new alignment in 1962 at the same time as the adjoining parts. Traffic counts have been close to 8500 VPD in recent years and aren't significantly different than the adjoining 4-lane parts, so it makes sense to widen this part to complete the corridor to Cadiz.

It's also great to see ODOT add a bunch of widening projects for I-70 for Tier II! (Indiana State Line to US 127, Palmer Road to SR 158, and Upper Lewisburg-Salem Road to SR 48)

So where is that US 33 widening? Or is that something outside of TRAC? Looks like a pretty skimpy list to me if that's all they're going to do.

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580/01-31-2024+January+2024+TRAC+Draft+List.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE.Z18_M1HGGIK0N0JO00QO9DDDDM3000-7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580-oRy7MV2
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Bitmapped

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1223 on: February 01, 2024, 08:40:41 AM »

The draft 2024 TRAC project list is out: https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580/01-31-2024+January+2024+TRAC+Draft+List.pdf

Two notable projects stand out in the Tier II - Preliminary Engineering tier:
- Widening OH 161 from US 62 to OH 37 to 6 lanes. This is for the Intel megasite. This section of freeway is less than 15 years old to begin with.
- Widening the two-lane section of US 22 in Harrison County between the Cadiz bypass and SR 151 at Hopedale, where it widens back to 4-lanes heading east to the state line. This Super-2 portion was built on a new alignment in 1962 at the same time as the adjoining parts. Traffic counts have been close to 8500 VPD in recent years and aren't significantly different than the adjoining 4-lane parts, so it makes sense to widen this part to complete the corridor to Cadiz.

It's also great to see ODOT add a bunch of widening projects for I-70 for Tier II! (Indiana State Line to US 127, Palmer Road to SR 158, and Upper Lewisburg-Salem Road to SR 48)

So where is that US 33 widening? Or is that something outside of TRAC? Looks like a pretty skimpy list to me if that's all they're going to do.

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580/01-31-2024+January+2024+TRAC+Draft+List.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE.Z18_M1HGGIK0N0JO00QO9DDDDM3000-7691a737-dfe5-4861-87d1-88bca0906580-oRy7MV2

The draft list is just for additions to the existing list. The US 33 widening in Athens and Meigs Counties remains in Tier II. It is funded for preliminary engineering and design, not for construction.
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Buck87

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Re: Ohio
« Reply #1224 on: February 01, 2024, 01:22:35 PM »

Here's a full list of the 28 projects that applied for TRAC funding:
https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/programs/trac/past-apps/2023-apps

You can click on any of them to see the pdf of the application, which include basic maps if you scroll down far enough

18 of the projects were selected for the draft list, and the final list will be voted on at the Feb 28 TRAC meeting
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