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Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered at https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33904.0
Corrected several already and appreciate your patience as we work through the rest.

Poll

What cycle do you like?

original HAWK
modified HAWK
what is a HAWK signal?
I like RYG ped signals.

Author Topic: HAWK Thread  (Read 44782 times)

kphoger

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #275 on: October 28, 2022, 09:24:48 AM »

Just because it’s in the MUTCD, doesn’t make it right.

Cities like Seattle will use PHB warrants for half signals. Cities in my area will program PHBs to not include the flashing red phase while FDW is on.

The MUTCD is a document, sure. And it’s helpful in many cases, yes. But how good of an engineer are you if you follow it blindly?

It sounds like those engineers aren't following the MUTCD.  That doesn't make the MUTCD 'wrong'.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #276 on: October 29, 2022, 05:12:57 AM »

The MUTCD is, has been, and will continue to be a flexible document, meant primarily to keep things consistent from state to state. It's a book of standards. There is always room for personal interpretation and innovation, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #277 on: October 30, 2022, 09:52:02 PM »

Just because it’s in the MUTCD, doesn’t make it right.

Cities like Seattle will use PHB warrants for half signals. Cities in my area will program PHBs to not include the flashing red phase while FDW is on.

The MUTCD is a document, sure. And it’s helpful in many cases, yes. But how good of an engineer are you if you follow it blindly?

It sounds like those engineers aren't following the MUTCD.  That doesn't make the MUTCD 'wrong'.
Never said wrong. It’s helpful as a starting point, but it’s good to modify and take a look at it in further, especially regarding the context. For PHBs specifically;
- are there many bicyclists that cross here.
-  What’s the population, high % of school children or elderly?
- Is there a multi threat conflict?

Maybe it makes sense to go to Alt R right when FDW starts, or maybe you do a delay so pedestrians can get into the final lane, or maybe you just go Alt R after the FDW stops. It all depends!


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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #278 on: October 31, 2022, 12:36:59 AM »

I seem to recall the original LA-style HAWK (three-head signal) had no solid red phase. Solid green > Solid Yellow > Flashing Red > Solid green.

In theory, drivers have a flashing red, and must stop anytime the signal is active. So the danger to pedestrians should be very minimal unless they just straight up run the flashing red.

Amtrakprod

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #279 on: October 31, 2022, 04:24:29 PM »

I seem to recall the original LA-style HAWK (three-head signal) had no solid red phase. Solid green > Solid Yellow > Flashing Red > Solid green.

In theory, drivers have a flashing red, and must stop anytime the signal is active. So the danger to pedestrians should be very minimal unless they just straight up run the flashing red.
Which they do, hence why I prefer the solid red. I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.


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Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #280 on: October 31, 2022, 04:27:11 PM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #281 on: October 31, 2022, 05:31:25 PM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


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Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Scott5114

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #282 on: October 31, 2022, 06:04:22 PM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


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Requiring cars to idle at a red light increases energy use, so it's actually bad for the environment.
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Amtrakprod

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #283 on: October 31, 2022, 06:29:46 PM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


iPhone

Requiring cars to idle at a red light increases energy use, so it's actually bad for the environment.
There’s no evidence behind that, even if it seems true, especially with the adoption of automatic engine off cars that have become popular.

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

So we’ll keep prioritizing pedestrians, bicyclists, and buses, while restricting turns on red.


iPhone
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Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Rothman

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #284 on: October 31, 2022, 06:31:18 PM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


iPhone

Requiring cars to idle at a red light increases energy use, so it's actually bad for the environment.
There’s no evidence behind that, even if it seems true, especially with the adoption of automatic engine off cars that have become popular.

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

So we’ll keep prioritizing pedestrians, bicyclists, and buses, while restricting turns on red.


iPhone
Who's "we"? :D
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formulanone

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #285 on: October 31, 2022, 07:53:35 PM »

Curiously, I found a HAWK signal placed before a school zone in Bermuda. The setup doesn't span both travel lanes.



(Yes, that small sign behind the signal says "kill your speed, not me".)

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CoreySamson

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #286 on: October 31, 2022, 08:23:13 PM »

I seem to recall the original LA-style HAWK (three-head signal) had no solid red phase. Solid green > Solid Yellow > Flashing Red > Solid green.

In theory, drivers have a flashing red, and must stop anytime the signal is active. So the danger to pedestrians should be very minimal unless they just straight up run the flashing red.
Which they do, hence why I prefer the solid red. I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

iPhone
Just a quick question, but why do you believe a solid red makes any difference over a flashing red? They pretty much accomplish the same thing, and in my experience (ofc yours might be different) drivers seem to treat them the same.
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Scott5114

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #287 on: October 31, 2022, 08:50:22 PM »

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

I wasn't aware that forcing cars to wait at red lights would do something about the 60 mph wind and 117% humidity here...
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algorerhythms

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #288 on: October 31, 2022, 10:27:07 PM »

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

I wasn't aware that forcing cars to wait at red lights would do something about the 60 mph wind and 117% humidity here...
When I was last in Oklahoma, I found walking outside in January actually quite pleasant. Walking outside along 12th Avenue in Norman, not so much.
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jakeroot

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #289 on: November 01, 2022, 01:22:10 AM »

I seem to recall the original LA-style HAWK (three-head signal) had no solid red phase. Solid green > Solid Yellow > Flashing Red > Solid green.

In theory, drivers have a flashing red, and must stop anytime the signal is active. So the danger to pedestrians should be very minimal unless they just straight up run the flashing red.
Which they do, hence why I prefer the solid red. I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

Are you saying that drivers frequently run flashing red lights? I'm not sure that I would agree with that. Many drivers do California stops, sure. That is common even here in Japan. But I've never seen intersections where drivers just straight up blow through a flashing red. That's exceptionally unusual.

JoePCool14

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #290 on: November 01, 2022, 09:49:41 AM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights—specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


iPhone

Requiring cars to idle at a red light increases energy use, so it's actually bad for the environment.
There’s no evidence behind that, even if it seems true, especially with the adoption of automatic engine off cars that have become popular.

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

So we’ll keep prioritizing pedestrians, bicyclists, and buses, while restricting turns on red.

My family has a car that has an auto-engine stop. There's a button to disable it, but you have to press it each time you start the car. Guess what I do every time I drive it?

Also, I see lots of drivers ignoring NTOR, especially in situations where the prohibition isn't justified due to a lack of sight or very high speeds. So NTOR can end up being a nuisance to those who obey it, and doesn't stop people from ignoring it anyways. NTOR should only be used where it is absolutely justified.
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Amtrakprod

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #291 on: November 01, 2022, 04:42:05 PM »

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

I wasn't aware that forcing cars to wait at red lights would do something about the 60 mph wind and 117% humidity here...
Pleasant meaning safer, obviously.


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Amtrakprod

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #292 on: November 01, 2022, 04:42:48 PM »

I seem to recall the original LA-style HAWK (three-head signal) had no solid red phase. Solid green > Solid Yellow > Flashing Red > Solid green.

In theory, drivers have a flashing red, and must stop anytime the signal is active. So the danger to pedestrians should be very minimal unless they just straight up run the flashing red.
Which they do, hence why I prefer the solid red. I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

Are you saying that drivers frequently run flashing red lights? I'm not sure that I would agree with that. Many drivers do California stops, sure. That is common even here in Japan. But I've never seen intersections where drivers just straight up blow through a flashing red. That's exceptionally unusual.
I’m saying California stops, which IMO, is running a flashing red. Full stops is what the signal is requiring, it’s not a flashing yellow arrow !


iPhone
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Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Amtrakprod

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #293 on: November 01, 2022, 04:44:06 PM »

I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


iPhone

Requiring cars to idle at a red light increases energy use, so it's actually bad for the environment.
There’s no evidence behind that, even if it seems true, especially with the adoption of automatic engine off cars that have become popular.

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

So we’ll keep prioritizing pedestrians, bicyclists, and buses, while restricting turns on red.


iPhone
Who's "we"? :D
At my job, in the transpo industry, just generally. It’s different in every state, but in Massachusetts, rights on red; just don’t make a lot of sense most of them.


iPhone
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Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

Rothman

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #294 on: November 01, 2022, 09:44:49 PM »



I would say that 75% of drivers do not make complete stops at stop signs, right turns on red, etc, and I’m being generous. As someone who does, I get irritated that others do not.

As a pedestrian, I've had that be much less of a problem at stop signs, but much more of a problem at stoplights–specifically the phenomenon that people turning right on red often blindly intrude into the crosswalk before stopping and looking.
I’ve only been hit by a car once, and it was at a stop sign.

As for rights on red, I prefer to propose R10-11 (No Turn On Reds) instead of allowing vehicles to turn on red. It makes for a much safer environment


iPhone

Requiring cars to idle at a red light increases energy use, so it's actually bad for the environment.
There’s no evidence behind that, even if it seems true, especially with the adoption of automatic engine off cars that have become popular.

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

So we’ll keep prioritizing pedestrians, bicyclists, and buses, while restricting turns on red.


iPhone
Who's "we"? :D
At my job, in the transpo industry, just generally. It’s different in every state, but in Massachusetts, rights on red; just don’t make a lot of sense most of them.
iPhone

So, you work in the "transpo industry."  If you mean a private contractor, I don't see how you would be able to dictate when rights on red are implemented.
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Scott5114

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #295 on: November 01, 2022, 09:51:33 PM »

Furthermore, making the environment outside of a car more pleasant, which will result in less cars on the road.

I wasn't aware that forcing cars to wait at red lights would do something about the 60 mph wind and 117% humidity here...
Pleasant meaning safer, obviously.

I mean, I'd probably be a lot safer if I went around town wearing a football helmet and pads. I'm guessing it wouldn't be very pleasant, though.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #296 on: November 01, 2022, 10:24:54 PM »

Regarding the auto-engine stop: my mom's car has one of those. I get that it's better for the environment, but it bothers me to no end whenever I have to drive her car because it also locks the steering wheel. Seems bad practice to lock a wheel in a car that you're supposed to be in full control of.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #297 on: November 01, 2022, 11:07:46 PM »

Regarding the auto-engine stop: my mom's car has one of those. I get that it's better for the environment, but it bothers me to no end whenever I have to drive her car because it also locks the steering wheel. Seems bad practice to lock a wheel in a car that you're supposed to be in full control of.

Becoming less of an issue with mild hybrid systems becoming more common. Usually nudging the steering wheel kicks the engine back on, though.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #298 on: November 01, 2022, 11:12:21 PM »

Are you saying that drivers frequently run flashing red lights? I'm not sure that I would agree with that. Many drivers do California stops, sure. That is common even here in Japan. But I've never seen intersections where drivers just straight up blow through a flashing red. That's exceptionally unusual.

I’m saying California stops, which IMO, is running a flashing red. Full stops is what the signal is requiring, it’s not a flashing yellow arrow !

Practically speaking, you really should draw a line between failure to completely stop and blowing through a stop condition. Most drivers will still yield to pedestrians under "California stop" conditions and speeds are usually very low (2-5 mph); total failure to even recognize a stop condition is a serious danger as blowing through at-speed could easily kill someone walking/riding/rolling/driving.

For example, at a HAWK, California stops are pretty reasonable. It's usually obvious enough if there is a pedestrian warranting a complete stop (and yield). But blowing through the alternating red without even slowing down is insanely dangerous. I wouldn't personally support solid red at a HAWK unless the latter has become common. Slowing down, looking for danger, and then continuing, is more than reasonable. I assume the Netherlands agrees, as they don't hardly ever use stop signs.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #299 on: November 02, 2022, 10:19:16 AM »

Most drivers will still yield to pedestrians under "California stop" conditions and speeds are usually very low (2-5 mph)

In my experience, drivers don't yield to pedestrians until they actually see one, and they don't start looking for them until they've already entered the crosswalk during their "California stop" routine.

This doesn't mean I'm against less-than-complete stops.  It just means people need to learn how to properly yield.
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