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Downstate Illinois Notes

Started by 3467, September 26, 2022, 08:17:53 PM

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edwaleni

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 22, 2022, 07:19:59 PM
What else is there to improve, road wise, in Cairo? Rt 51 is a 4 lane road thru town. The Mississippi River bridge wouldn't hurt, but that would require MoDOT cooperation, and the I-57 bridge also crosses the river not far upstream

The only thing I can come up with is that Cairo will become the Loves/TA/Pilot/FlyingJ/Bucees of the barge worker community with its central location.

This aggregation of barge workers will support a gaggle of Microtel/LaQuinta/Super8/Motel6 hotels to house barge pilots who are awaiting their return back orders.

That in turn will bring a casino and a few places to eat in fast/near fast realm.

All the rails in Cairo proper are still in place (most in weeds) thanks to the State of Illinois not allowing them to be abandoned.

The port will be on the west side of Cairo between Cedar Street and Levee Road, so really the only road improvements I can see is between US-51 and the new port for any heavy trucks to come in and out.

I just looked at the KyDOT road bridge preferred alternative for the new Cairo Bridge which will be just north of the current one, with a roundabout on the Illinois side.

So I would imagine, there will be a truck tie in just north of the roundabout. This would mean any trucks coming and going to Kentucky or Missouri wouldn't have to traverse the town.



Revive 755

#26
Quote from: edwaleni on October 22, 2022, 10:14:29 PM
All the rails in Cairo proper are still in place (most in weeds) thanks to the State of Illinois not allowing them to be abandoned.

Not entirely true; the at grade one near the northern floodgate has been pulled up.

[edited to fix url typo]

edwaleni

Quote from: Revive 755 on October 22, 2022, 10:57:24 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 22, 2022, 10:14:29 PM
All the rails in Cairo proper are still in place (most in weeds) thanks to the State of Illinois not allowing them to be abandoned.

Not entirely true; the at grade one near the northern floodgate[url] has been pulled up.

If going by that GM view it would appear out of service, but they technically still are.

Actually Cairo is served 2 ways today by rail.

There is a CN yard at Future City north of Cairo. It mostly serves the Bunge grain terminal on the Cairo riverfront. That yard has a lead north of the tunnel and then come underneath into the city. That line is very active.

On the other side of the yard, CN built a wye to the former MoPac line from Thebes to service the remaining customers of MoPac and when the GM&O line was taken out north of town.

This led to a metals scrapper, a water plant and to a large yard/dock complex on the west side of Cairo. The rails to the scrapper on Commerce Street are still there.

There is a switch at 36th Street that allowed locals to back in to their customers not on the Bunge line.

Even though the streets have become pretty much dirt roads now, there are still active crossbucks at each crossing all the way to 17th Street until the rails end at 12th.

This particular route is currently choked with weeds, but the crossing you reference at US-51 is still technically "active". The signal box still has a meter and is connected to the utility.

But I would guess it hasn't had a delivery on it in 15 years. It appears CN pulls some cars down for storage periodically, but never cross the highway here.

Knowing railroads they would have dropped these sidings like a hot potato ages ago, but Illinois wants them kept around in anticipation of this new port.


ilpt4u

Quote from: edwaleni on October 22, 2022, 10:14:29 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 22, 2022, 07:19:59 PM
What else is there to improve, road wise, in Cairo? Rt 51 is a 4 lane road thru town. The Mississippi River bridge wouldn't hurt, but that would require MoDOT cooperation, and the I-57 bridge also crosses the river not far upstream

The only thing I can come up with is that Cairo will become the Loves/TA/Pilot/FlyingJ/Bucees of the barge worker community with its central location.

This aggregation of barge workers will support a gaggle of Microtel/LaQuinta/Super8/Motel6 hotels to house barge pilots who are awaiting their return back orders.

That in turn will bring a casino and a few places to eat in fast/near fast realm.


All the rails in Cairo proper are still in place (most in weeds) thanks to the State of Illinois not allowing them to be abandoned.

The port will be on the west side of Cairo between Cedar Street and Levee Road, so really the only road improvements I can see is between US-51 and the new port for any heavy trucks to come in and out.

I just looked at the KyDOT road bridge preferred alternative for the new Cairo Bridge which will be just north of the current one, with a roundabout on the Illinois side.

So I would imagine, there will be a truck tie in just north of the roundabout. This would mean any trucks coming and going to Kentucky or Missouri wouldn't have to traverse the town.
If a barge port needs all that, Metropolis/Paducah ain't very far away.

Illinois isn't going to issue a 3rd Southern IL casino license, with Metropolis very close and Williamson County not that far away

Most likely would be a few smaller slot machine lounges

Revive 755

Quote from: edwaleni on October 22, 2022, 11:52:25 PM
This particular route is currently choked with weeds, but the crossing you reference at US-51 is still technically "active". The signal box still has a meter and is connected to the utility.

I should have been clearer.  Last time I was through Cairo on US 51 this year (due to the road to Wickliffe being blocked) the cantilever signals for the US 51 grade crossing were completely gone - can't recall for sure how much of the track was left.

kphoger

Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 22, 2022, 03:51:22 PM
Functional class has no relationship to whether or not the route is state-maintained.  Functional class just aims to describe the role of a roadway in the overall roadway network.

I suspected not.  However, in searching multiple roads in multiple counties, I was unable to identify a single road that (1) I know is state-maintained and (2) is marked 'Major Collector'.  That level of correlation, I though, was worth pointing out.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 22, 2022, 03:51:22 PM
Herrin Road has these mile markers that give away that it's an unmarked state highway, because these mile markers only appear on state-maintained roads in certain counties. Not all unmarked IDOT roads will have these mile markers, but all roads with these mile markers will be state-maintained roads (unless they are remnants from a past jurisdictional transfer).

https://goo.gl/maps/3Pf6abiKHw7wK2tm6

Fully aware of that.  I used to drive Herrin Road pretty much every day for a year and half.  I lived in Herrin, I drove a delivery truck all over southern Illinois and surrounding areas, and my dispatch was just east of Colp on Herrin Road.

As far as I can tell, there are no such signs on Cambria Road south of Herrin-Colp blacktop.  There are also 'END STATE MAINTENANCE' signs on the portion south of Herrin-Colp, whereas the portion north of there is inarguably FAS-907.  (Yes, I realize the state supposedly no longer refers to FAS numbers, but whatever.  Bids on FAS routes still include the number.)

Do you know of any resource to check for certain if that stretch of Cambria Road is a secondary state highway or not?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

paulthemapguy

It shows right on the map that Cambria Road is a county highway.  It has a number in a square, so it has to be county-maintained.  No stretch of road in Illinois is maintained by both a county and the state DOT, so far as I know.
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kphoger

Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 24, 2022, 03:53:17 PM
It shows right on the map that Cambria Road is a county highway.  It has a number in a square, so it has to be county-maintained.  No stretch of road in Illinois is maintained by both a county and the state DOT, so far as I know.

Alternatively:  It shows right on the map that Cambria Road is an FA Secondary Route.  It has a number in an elongated circle.

Are there county FAS routes?  I wasn't aware of that.  I thought all FAS routes were state roads.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Rick Powell

Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 24, 2022, 03:53:17 PM
No stretch of road in Illinois is maintained by both a county and the state DOT, so far as I know.

There are streets in Chicago that flip every few blocks from city, to county, to state jurisdiction or some combination of them. And some where the city limit splits the road, so technically a split jurisdiction. It wouldn't make sense for multiple entities to maintain the streets by piecework, so agreements are made. There are more maintenance agreements than streets around here, or so it seems sometimes.  OK, back to Downstate IL!

edwaleni

Quote from: Revive 755 on October 23, 2022, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on October 22, 2022, 11:52:25 PM
This particular route is currently choked with weeds, but the crossing you reference at US-51 is still technically "active". The signal box still has a meter and is connected to the utility.

I should have been clearer.  Last time I was through Cairo on US 51 this year (due to the road to Wickliffe being blocked) the cantilever signals for the US 51 grade crossing were completely gone - can't recall for sure how much of the track was left.

No problem. The tracks still showed as active when I checked online. Probably hasn't caught up.

paulthemapguy

Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2022, 04:01:30 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 24, 2022, 03:53:17 PM
It shows right on the map that Cambria Road is a county highway.  It has a number in a square, so it has to be county-maintained.  No stretch of road in Illinois is maintained by both a county and the state DOT, so far as I know.

Alternatively:  It shows right on the map that Cambria Road is an FA Secondary Route.  It has a number in an elongated circle.

Are there county FAS routes?  I wasn't aware of that.  I thought all FAS routes were state roads.

The federal aid definitions of routes I think just relate to how they were funded in their original constructions, and they can be state, county, or municipal roads.  (Maybe township?)

Quote from: Rick Powell on October 24, 2022, 06:50:00 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 24, 2022, 03:53:17 PM
No stretch of road in Illinois is maintained by both a county and the state DOT, so far as I know.

There are streets in Chicago that flip every few blocks from city, to county, to state jurisdiction or some combination of them. And some where the city limit splits the road, so technically a split jurisdiction. It wouldn't make sense for multiple entities to maintain the streets by piecework, so agreements are made. There are more maintenance agreements than streets around here, or so it seems sometimes.  OK, back to Downstate IL!

This is why I say "stretch of".  Sometimes the stretch is only a few lot widths, where the municipality has annexed just those few houses!
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

ilpt4u

Drove Herrin Rd from I-57 to its Cambria Rd round-about terminus today. The "Begin State Maintenance"  sign is just west of Herrin Elementary School: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pjauzXKMuaWVzjke9?g_st=ic and yes this section has the standard IL state route county-named mile markers. On the east side of Herrin, "Begin State Maintenance"  is posted at the Herrin 5th St intersection with Herrin Rd: https://maps.app.goo.gl/r5DWNNMFMDkESbeD9?g_st=ic Heavily implies Herrin Rd is maintained by Herrin between those two points thru town

The state maintained section of Cambria Rd, between Herrin Rd and IL 149, does NOT have those mile markers, fwiw. But does have Begin/End State Maintenance sign just south of the Herrin Rd round-about

kphoger

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 26, 2022, 09:47:47 PM
Drove Herrin Rd from I-57 to its Cambria Rd round-about terminus today. The "Begin State Maintenance"  sign is just west of Herrin Elementary School: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pjauzXKMuaWVzjke9?g_st=ic and yes this section has the standard IL state route county-named mile markers. On the east side of Herrin, "Begin State Maintenance"  is posted at the Herrin 5th St intersection with Herrin Rd: https://maps.app.goo.gl/r5DWNNMFMDkESbeD9?g_st=ic Heavily implies Herrin Rd is maintained by Herrin between those two points thru town

Both of locations are at the city limit line.  (I'm quite familiar with Herrin Road through there.  The big warehouse immediately east of Herrin Elementary was my dispatch location, so I drove in and out of there every day for about 1½ years.

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 26, 2022, 09:47:47 PM
The state maintained section of Cambria Rd, between Herrin Rd and IL 149, does NOT have those mile markers, fwiw. But does have Begin/End State Maintenance sign just south of the Herrin Rd round-about

Yeah, I had been hunting current and historical GSV for mile markers along that stretch because I thought I remembered it having them.  I moved away in 2008 and GSV goes back to 2009, so it's probably just a false memory on my part.

Then again, other roads that I remember having those mile markers are turning up empty for me now...  (Kinlou Road between Kinmundy and Louisville stands out in my mind.)
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

NWI_Irish96

So I've been traveling quite a bit back and forth between home and the Louisville area for work. To make my trips more interesting and because I absolutely loathe I-65, I've been turning what's normally a 4.5 hour trip down into a 9-10 hour trip collecting new counties and highway mileage in southern Illinois and western Kentucky. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32015.0

My last trip took me to Cairo for the first time and man, what a depressing place. I know that roads and bridges lessened the need for a port city, but it was still sad to see. I really hope that a solution can be found to make such an historic place viable again.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
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Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
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Rick Powell

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 14, 2022, 08:12:29 AM
So I've been traveling quite a bit back and forth between home and the Louisville area for work. To make my trips more interesting and because I absolutely loathe I-65, I've been turning what's normally a 4.5 hour trip down into a 9-10 hour trip collecting new counties and highway mileage in southern Illinois and western Kentucky. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32015.0

My last trip took me to Cairo for the first time and man, what a depressing place. I know that roads and bridges lessened the need for a port city, but it was still sad to see. I really hope that a solution can be found to make such an historic place viable again.

https://www.alexandercairo.org/ The Alexander-Cairo Port District is undergoing a $40M port renovation, so hopefully the added business it hopes to pick up will provide tangible benefits to the area.

Alps

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 14, 2022, 08:12:29 AM
So I've been traveling quite a bit back and forth between home and the Louisville area for work. To make my trips more interesting and because I absolutely loathe I-65, I've been turning what's normally a 4.5 hour trip down into a 9-10 hour trip collecting new counties and highway mileage in southern Illinois and western Kentucky. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32015.0

My last trip took me to Cairo for the first time and man, what a depressing place. I know that roads and bridges lessened the need for a port city, but it was still sad to see. I really hope that a solution can be found to make such an historic place viable again.
is the one restaurant (Shemwell's) still open

edwaleni

Quote from: Alps on November 14, 2022, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 14, 2022, 08:12:29 AM
So I've been traveling quite a bit back and forth between home and the Louisville area for work. To make my trips more interesting and because I absolutely loathe I-65, I've been turning what's normally a 4.5 hour trip down into a 9-10 hour trip collecting new counties and highway mileage in southern Illinois and western Kentucky. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32015.0

My last trip took me to Cairo for the first time and man, what a depressing place. I know that roads and bridges lessened the need for a port city, but it was still sad to see. I really hope that a solution can be found to make such an historic place viable again.
is the one restaurant (Shemwell's) still open

https://www.facebook.com/Shemwells-BBQ-Emily-Meyer-785230851648552/

edwaleni

Quote from: Rick Powell on November 14, 2022, 09:50:44 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 14, 2022, 08:12:29 AM
So I've been traveling quite a bit back and forth between home and the Louisville area for work. To make my trips more interesting and because I absolutely loathe I-65, I've been turning what's normally a 4.5 hour trip down into a 9-10 hour trip collecting new counties and highway mileage in southern Illinois and western Kentucky. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32015.0

My last trip took me to Cairo for the first time and man, what a depressing place. I know that roads and bridges lessened the need for a port city, but it was still sad to see. I really hope that a solution can be found to make such an historic place viable again.

https://www.alexandercairo.org/ The Alexander-Cairo Port District is undergoing a $40M port renovation, so hopefully the added business it hopes to pick up will provide tangible benefits to the area.

I agree.  Illinois has pushed a lot of money into various historic districts, but for some reason has allowed the Cairo Historic District to fall down with very little left.

While building a port based logistics complex is unique and interesting, hopefully the new tax revenue will not be wasted and used to build something more sustainable.

Just as an example, but not the silver bullet, river cruising is growing in popularity. With a new port and a rebuilt historic district, Cairo would make a great port of call for future Mississippi River cruises.

hobsini2

Quote from: edwaleni on November 14, 2022, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 14, 2022, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 14, 2022, 08:12:29 AM
So I've been traveling quite a bit back and forth between home and the Louisville area for work. To make my trips more interesting and because I absolutely loathe I-65, I've been turning what's normally a 4.5 hour trip down into a 9-10 hour trip collecting new counties and highway mileage in southern Illinois and western Kentucky. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32015.0

My last trip took me to Cairo for the first time and man, what a depressing place. I know that roads and bridges lessened the need for a port city, but it was still sad to see. I really hope that a solution can be found to make such an historic place viable again.
is the one restaurant (Shemwell's) still open

https://www.facebook.com/Shemwells-BBQ-Emily-Meyer-785230851648552/
A couple years ago, I did stop there at Shemwells. It was good. But yes Cairo is a depressing city. About 1/3 of the pop from its height is left.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

3467

Google maps just updated its satellite map. You can see the widening of 67 north of Monmouth from a few weeks ago. You can see one of the worst US highways turn into one of the best. I will try to get some ground pics.

3467

Well more good news street view updated . It's a few weeks before the satellite. It's not a new interstate but still fun for roadgeeks.

Rick Powell

#46
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 19, 2022, 01:17:38 PM
But yes Cairo is a depressing city. About 1/3 of the pop from its height is left.

More like 10% are left. At its height in the 1920s, there were over 15,000. 2020 Census says 1,733.  The population decline also reminded me that Cairo was once an important passenger rail stop for the IC and GM&O railroads. The GM&O discontinued passenger service south of St Louis in 1958, while all the IC's mainline passenger trains stopped there up to Amtrak in 1971 when several trains were dropped. The remaining trains continued to stop there through the Amtrak era, but apparently there were so few passengers that Amtrak finally abandoned the stop in 1987.

edwaleni

Quote from: Rick Powell on November 21, 2022, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 19, 2022, 01:17:38 PM
But yes Cairo is a depressing city. About 1/3 of the pop from its height is left.

More like 10% are left. At its height in the 1920s, there were over 15,000. 2020 Census says 1,733.  The population decline also reminded me that Cairo was once an important passenger rail stop for the IC and GM&O railroads. The GM&O discontinued passenger service south of St Louis in 1958, while all the IC's mainline passenger trains stopped there up to Amtrak in 1971 when several trains were dropped. The remaining trains continued to stop there through the Amtrak era, but apparently there were so few passengers that Amtrak finally abandoned the stop in 1987.

At one time the Illinois Central bridge over the Ohio @ Cairo was "the bridge" for any north-south traffic between Chicago and the south. (from 1889-1917) Cairo had many hotels at one time, not only for the flatboaters and paddle wheelers and later barges, but for all of the travelers who had to wait for their train to cross the bridge. Because of this it was also a large transfer point of commerce to and from different railroads, and this required Cairo to have a large yard to accommodate it all and employees to manage it.

Due to congestion at Cairo, Illinois Central built the Edgewood Cutoff and bought a share of the new Metropolis Bridge in 1925 and started redirecting traffic.

The decline really started when passenger rail began its decline in the 1950's. Then GM&O merged with IC which removed a large amount of switched freight. As railroads began to merge and reorganize and abandon ROW, many of the flags that served and utilized Cairo began to disappear. All that is left is the original carrier (CN) which bought out the IC.

edwaleni

Quote from: 3467 on November 20, 2022, 07:29:47 PM
Google maps just updated its satellite map. You can see the widening of 67 north of Monmouth from a few weeks ago. You can see one of the worst US highways turn into one of the best. I will try to get some ground pics.

I don't see it. Mine just shows a traffic backup at Henderson Creek north of Monmouth.

I agree that 2 lane was a mess and dangerous.

3467

It's from the North junction of 135 south about 5 miles. The remaining 6 starts next Spring. They are behind right now but as you point out that was a dangerously substandard stretch of road and they had to completely dig down and replace some sections.



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