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[Alps]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

Yes it is. 50,000 will justify a freeway in most states. It's at least a 4-lane highway out here.

[SectorZ]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

[Roadgeekteen]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

Massachusetts infrastructure is lacking, all these changes should be made.

[kernals12]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

They were forecasting a population boom in the Boston area that never materialized. They ignored how the gas tax would be eroded by inflation. They also drew lines on maps without detailed studies that would've probably turned up steep slopes and wetlands.

[SectorZ]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

They were forecasting a population boom in the Boston area that never materialized. They ignored how the gas tax would be eroded by inflation. They also drew lines on maps without detailed studies that would've probably turned up steep slopes and wetlands.

209 definitely falls into the wetlands problem. If 109 wasn't there I feel that would be a problem being built now in Millis and Medfield.

[DJStephens]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

They were forecasting a population boom in the Boston area that never materialized. They ignored how the gas tax would be eroded by inflation. They also drew lines on maps without detailed studies that would've probably turned up steep slopes and wetlands.

If Volpe hadn't joined the Nixon administration, quite a bit of that would likely have been built.  Enourmous mistakes were made in the 1970 timeframe.   

[Ted$8roadFan]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

They were forecasting a population boom in the Boston area that never materialized. They ignored how the gas tax would be eroded by inflation. They also drew lines on maps without detailed studies that would've probably turned up steep slopes and wetlands.

If Volpe hadn't joined the Nixon administration, quite a bit of that would likely have been built.  Enourmous mistakes were made in the 1970 timeframe.

It was Volpe’s Lt. Governor, Frank Sargent, on whose watch the highway building era ended.

[Rothman]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

That whole book is depressing. Red Line and Orange Line to 128, Blue Line to Salem, Rt 209, upgraded 128 to Gloucester. There are a dozen+ things in there that didn't happen at a minimum.

They were forecasting a population boom in the Boston area that never materialized. They ignored how the gas tax would be eroded by inflation. They also drew lines on maps without detailed studies that would've probably turned up steep slopes and wetlands.

If Volpe hadn't joined the Nixon administration, quite a bit of that would likely have been built.  Enourmous mistakes were made in the 1970 timeframe.

It was Volpe’s Lt. Governor, Frank Sargent, on whose watch the highway building era ended.

Due to public backlash from how the Turnpike Extension was handled...

[sprjus4]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

50,000 AADT is certainly enough to warrant a freeway, and may be close to 6 lane warrants depending on peak traffic flows, and would likely carry higher volumes now, in 2023, had it been built.

[paulthemapguy]

495 isn't really a circumferential of Boston southeast of Foxborough, or arguably southeast of the Mass Pike.  It would be if a ton of traffic was generated from Cape Cod, but Cape Cod is quite decidedly not a dense urban core generating a massive amount of traffic.  It generates a good amount, yes, but not a ton. 495 does serve a good purpose in its southeastern reaches, though, providing access to a lot of populated areas in southeastern Mass. And 495 is a suitable enough number, as the majority of the highway serves as a bypass.  My point is that Boston, more or less, has 1 1/2 bypasses rather than 2. (Same with I-355 in Chicagoland; I'm hesitant to call that a bypass.) I'd be more inclined to call the southern half of 495 a bypass if there was a highway running south from Wareham or Cape Cod south across the ocean to, say, the Hamptons? 

[Rothman]

495 isn't really a circumferential of Boston southeast of Foxborough, or arguably southeast of the Mass Pike.  It would be if a ton of traffic was generated from Cape Cod, but Cape Cod is quite decidedly not a dense urban core generating a massive amount of traffic.  It generates a good amount, yes, but not a ton. 495 does serve a good purpose in its southeastern reaches, though, providing access to a lot of populated areas in southeastern Mass. And 495 is a suitable enough number, as the majority of the highway serves as a bypass.  My point is that Boston, more or less, has 1 1/2 bypasses rather than 2. (Same with I-355 in Chicagoland; I'm hesitant to call that a bypass.) I'd be more inclined to call the southern half of 495 a bypass if there was a highway running south from Wareham or Cape Cod south across the ocean to, say, the Hamptons? 

Wut.

[StogieGuy7]

495 isn't really a circumferential of Boston southeast of Foxborough, or arguably southeast of the Mass Pike.  It would be if a ton of traffic was generated from Cape Cod, but Cape Cod is quite decidedly not a dense urban core generating a massive amount of traffic.  It generates a good amount, yes, but not a ton. 495 does serve a good purpose in its southeastern reaches, though, providing access to a lot of populated areas in southeastern Mass. And 495 is a suitable enough number, as the majority of the highway serves as a bypass.  My point is that Boston, more or less, has 1 1/2 bypasses rather than 2. (Same with I-355 in Chicagoland; I'm hesitant to call that a bypass.) I'd be more inclined to call the southern half of 495 a bypass if there was a highway running south from Wareham or Cape Cod south across the ocean to, say, the Hamptons? 

Sorry, but no. For one thing, 495 very much is a bypass all the way down. Prior to the completion of 495 to the Bourne Bridge, from the west you pretty much had to go 90->128->3.  And that was hell. Now, yes, you're bypassing Boston on 128 (now 95) as well - but the bypass is of the densely populated Boston inner suburbs and 495 does that well. Also, I've had the pleasure of traveling between NH and Cape Cod a time or two and you have 3 choices: MA 3->93 through downtown (horrible traffic), MA 3 -> 93/95/128->MA 3 (bad traffic) or 495 -> US  (traffic usually moving). I've done #1 in the middle of the night, #2 late a night and #3 the rest of the time.

Also, your comment about 355 isn't correct either. It is also a bypass of sorts, providing a routing between the NW suburbs and points south. Were it not there, tens of thousands of cars would be heading to the Eisenhower (290) and on to the Tri State rather than staying on 355. Just because the bypass doesn't bypass downtown does not mean that it's not a bypass, Both examples above involve freeways to do indeed bypass very heavily traveled and congested areas that are every bit as busy as the center of a mid-sized city.

[Flint1979]

Out of these cities the metro population in 1950 vs. 2020:

Boston:
3,186,970 in 1950
4,941,632 in 2020.

Washington, DC:
1,464,089 in 1950
6,385,162 in 2020.

Atlanta:
997,666 in 1950
6,089,815 in 2020.

Seattle:
1,120,448 in 1950
4,018,762 in 2020.

Houston:
806,701 in 1950
7,122,140 in 2020.

Dallas: I only see as far back as 1980 for some reason but there is also a huge difference here.
2,794,805 in 1980
7,637,387 in 2020.

Chicago:
5,495,364 in 1950
9,618,502 in 2020.

[ran4sh]

There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.

[brad2971]

According to the 1968 MassDPW Recommended Highway and Transit Plan, the Middle Circumferential Corridor would've served less than 50,000 vehicles per day.
https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:437541510$53b

That's not nearly enough to justify a freeway.

50,000 AADT is certainly enough to warrant a freeway, and may be close to 6 lane warrants depending on peak traffic flows, and would likely carry higher volumes now, in 2023, had it been built.

50K AADT is enough to build a freeway connection, if you're someplace like Phoenix. With someplace as densely populated as Boston, it's not nearly enough to spend multiple billions of dollars on just property acquisition for the freeway.

[Flint1979]

There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.

That is not how it goes.

[pderocco]

495 isn't really a circumferential of Boston southeast of Foxborough, or arguably southeast of the Mass Pike.  It would be if a ton of traffic was generated from Cape Cod, but Cape Cod is quite decidedly not a dense urban core generating a massive amount of traffic.  It generates a good amount, yes, but not a ton.

The thing about Cape traffic is that it is extremely variable, light most of the time but huge on summer weekends. It's not sufficient to look at AADT. They should probably compute the RMS of the traffic instead, which would weight the busier times more heavily.

So that extension feels like an odd 3DI, because it's going to something rather than around it. But for most of its distance it feels like an even 3DI because it is primarily going around Boston. The only city over 100K on its route is Lowell, and no one thinks of 495 as the Lowell road, except locally.

[ran4sh]

There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.

That is not how it goes.

You stop that.

What's the alternative, don't build any more 3di when the numbers run out? Of course not.

So once again, you stop that.

[brad2971]

There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.

That is not how it goes.

You stop that.

What's the alternative, don't build any more 3di when the numbers run out? Of course not.

So once again, you stop that.

As Texas and Florida, not to mention California and Arizona, have amply demonstrated, not every freeway or tollway has to have that red, white, and blue Interstate shield.

[ran4sh]

There is no rule that odd-numbered first-digit three-digit Interstate Highways can't end at another Interstate at both ends.

Well obviously when a state runs out of even numbers for the first digit of loop/circumferential routes, they're allowed to use odd numbers for the first digit of additional such routes. That doesn't disprove the existence of such a rule.

That is not how it goes.

You stop that.

What's the alternative, don't build any more 3di when the numbers run out? Of course not.

So once again, you stop that.

As Texas and Florida, not to mention California and Arizona, have amply demonstrated, not every freeway or tollway has to have that red, white, and blue Interstate shield.

That's a non-answer

The question is, what are states allowed to do, or what *should* states do, if they run out of even-first-digit 3di numbers, but they build more 3dis. Interstate designation is valuable because interstate standards are higher than state route standards generally.

Some people think they shouldn't be allowed to use odd-first-digit 3di numbers.

That is incorrect, and I am right about that, and unless someone shows me a legitimate reference that I am incorrect about that, then I will treat it as me being right about that.