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Started by mgk920, May 30, 2012, 02:33:31 AM

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SEWIGuy

Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

Yeah those are improvements, but what they are fixing aren't really "glaring deficiencies." For instance the lower speed limit for SB I-39 doesn't really cause issues. In fact it doesn't really slow people down much at all.


thspfc

For a WI-78 northern terminus rerouting I've always imagined it continuing east along Old U Rd to a new interchange with 39/90/94, where it would end.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 06:00:59 PMFor a WI-78 northern terminus rerouting I've always imagined it continuing east along Old U Rd to a new interchange with 39/90/94, where it would end.


I wouldn't create another interchange just before the Cascade interchange though.

I guess I don't understand the problem of continuing to use Cascade as the current end for WI-78. There isn't a ton of traffic, so the left hand exit from I-39/90/94 NB to WI-78 SB isn't that big of a deal. Extending it to end at Cascade Mountain Road seems unnecessary.

thspfc

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 15, 2024, 09:39:07 AM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 06:00:59 PMFor a WI-78 northern terminus rerouting I've always imagined it continuing east along Old U Rd to a new interchange with 39/90/94, where it would end.


I wouldn't create another interchange just before the Cascade interchange though.

I guess I don't understand the problem of continuing to use Cascade as the current end for WI-78. There isn't a ton of traffic, so the left hand exit from I-39/90/94 NB to WI-78 SB isn't that big of a deal. Extending it to end at Cascade Mountain Road seems unnecessary.
I agree that it's not necessary, but if WISDOT insists on rerouting it, I think Old U Rd is the way to go.

I remember one time when going from Devils Lake to Madison, Google Maps told us to take CTH-DL to WI-78 to the Cascade interchange. In that scenario my proposal would be much more intuitive than the current setup or what WISDOT proposes. But WI-78 near its northern terminus is used by less than 2,000 VPD, so it's not worth the money.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: thspfc on December 15, 2024, 12:30:02 PMBut WI-78 near its northern terminus is used by less than 2,000 VPD, so it's not worth the money.

Right, which is why I don't know why they wouldn't just do something that is similar to the current set up. 2,000 VPD doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

mgk920

Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

The current interchange has no 'non-freeway' connections between WI 78 (at al) southwest of I-90/94 and the local roads to the northeast and east.  This includes no safe and legal pedestrian or bicycle connections.

Mike

thspfc

Quote from: mgk920 on December 15, 2024, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

The current interchange has no 'non-freeway' connections between WI 78 (at al) southwest of I-90/94 and the local roads to the northeast and east.  This includes no safe and legal pedestrian or bicycle connections.

Mike
Lol. There's no bicycles or pedestrians out there. Vehicles can continue from WI-78 onto I-39 and use the Cascade Mtn Rd exit.

mgk920

Quote from: thspfc on December 16, 2024, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 15, 2024, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

The current interchange has no 'non-freeway' connections between WI 78 (at al) southwest of I-90/94 and the local roads to the northeast and east.  This includes no safe and legal pedestrian or bicycle connections.

Mike
Lol. There's no bicycles or pedestrians out there. Vehicles can continue from WI-78 onto I-39 and use the Cascade Mtn Rd exit.

I don't know about what things are like in Minnesota, but here in Wisconsin, we take such issues a bit more seriously.

Mike

SEWIGuy

Quote from: mgk920 on December 16, 2024, 12:53:37 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 16, 2024, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 15, 2024, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

The current interchange has no 'non-freeway' connections between WI 78 (at al) southwest of I-90/94 and the local roads to the northeast and east.  This includes no safe and legal pedestrian or bicycle connections.

Mike
Lol. There's no bicycles or pedestrians out there. Vehicles can continue from WI-78 onto I-39 and use the Cascade Mtn Rd exit.

I don't know about what things are like in Minnesota, but here in Wisconsin, we take such issues a bit more seriously.

Mike

I think your initial premise is wrong though. Cascade Mountain Road crosses I-90/94 just west of the Cascade interchange. So you can get from WI-78 to Portage on a bike for instance.

The Ghostbuster

I believe the Cascade Mountain Rd. interchange is too close to the Interstate 39/90/94/STH 78 interchange, so it makes sense to remove the interchange and downgrade the connection between the Interstates and Cascade Mountain Rd. and Johnson Rd.

Molandfreak

Bikes could also use CTH-U from Merrimac to Portage.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

thspfc

Quote from: mgk920 on December 16, 2024, 12:53:37 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 16, 2024, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 15, 2024, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

The current interchange has no 'non-freeway' connections between WI 78 (at al) southwest of I-90/94 and the local roads to the northeast and east.  This includes no safe and legal pedestrian or bicycle connections.

Mike
Lol. There's no bicycles or pedestrians out there. Vehicles can continue from WI-78 onto I-39 and use the Cascade Mtn Rd exit.

I don't know about what things are like in Minnesota, but here in Wisconsin, we take such issues a bit more seriously.

Mike
MSP is the most bike-friendly metropolitan area in the country. I always thought Madison was a great city for bikes. It's like Houston compared to Minneapolis.

SEWIGuy

WIDOT published the EIS with preferred alternatives for the I-39/90/94 upgrade project.

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/399094/environ.aspx

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 16, 2024, 01:08:29 PMI think your initial premise is wrong though. Cascade Mountain Road crosses I-90/94 just west of the Cascade interchange. So you can get from WI-78 to Portage on a bike for instance.

That's a long detour, though.

Mike

Rothman

Quote from: thspfc on December 17, 2024, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 16, 2024, 12:53:37 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 16, 2024, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 15, 2024, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 14, 2024, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 14, 2024, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 14, 2024, 12:12:55 PMRe-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike
What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.
As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

The current interchange has no 'non-freeway' connections between WI 78 (at al) southwest of I-90/94 and the local roads to the northeast and east.  This includes no safe and legal pedestrian or bicycle connections.

Mike
Lol. There's no bicycles or pedestrians out there. Vehicles can continue from WI-78 onto I-39 and use the Cascade Mtn Rd exit.

I don't know about what things are like in Minnesota, but here in Wisconsin, we take such issues a bit more seriously.

Mike
MSP is the most bike-friendly metropolitan area in the country. I always thought Madison was a great city for bikes. It's like Houston compared to Minneapolis.

Cyclists used to wax rhapsodic about Seattle...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

peterj920

Looking at the alternatives for the I-39/90/94 Interchange at County V there's a no build alternative which is contingent on Bucees funding the interchange improvement. If Bucees backs out WISDOT will have to rebuild the interchange anyways. Why doesn't WISDOT fund most of the reconstruction of that interchange to end the Bucees stalemate if the interchange is going to be rebuilt regardless if Bucees is there or not?

SEWIGuy

Quote from: peterj920 on December 18, 2024, 01:02:55 AMLooking at the alternatives for the I-39/90/94 Interchange at County V there's a no build alternative which is contingent on Bucees funding the interchange improvement. If Bucees backs out WISDOT will have to rebuild the interchange anyways. Why doesn't WISDOT fund most of the reconstruction of that interchange to end the Bucees stalemate if the interchange is going to be rebuilt regardless if Bucees is there or not?

Because Bucees would require the diverging diamond alternative, which requires complete reconstruction, ROW acquisition and wetlands mitigation. Without it, it's just improving signals and adding a couple turn lanes.

Seriously, DeForest doesn't need a Bucees. No idea why they are working so hard for this.

thspfc

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 18, 2024, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on December 18, 2024, 01:02:55 AMLooking at the alternatives for the I-39/90/94 Interchange at County V there's a no build alternative which is contingent on Bucees funding the interchange improvement. If Bucees backs out WISDOT will have to rebuild the interchange anyways. Why doesn't WISDOT fund most of the reconstruction of that interchange to end the Bucees stalemate if the interchange is going to be rebuilt regardless if Bucees is there or not?

Because Bucees would require the diverging diamond alternative, which requires complete reconstruction, ROW acquisition and wetlands mitigation. Without it, it's just improving signals and adding a couple turn lanes.

Seriously, DeForest doesn't need a Bucees. No idea why they are working so hard for this.
It'$ weird, no rea$on why Buc-ee$ would build a $tore there.

SSOWorld

#BuceesRoads

(Close friend of #BuceesJim)
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

JREwing78

The last I read was that the difference between the project costs and what Buc-ees was willing to fund was about $8 million. DeForest is trying to get someone else to cover the difference, either Buc-ees or WisDOT. Clearly, WisDOT is not leaping at the opportunity. And so, we have a stalemate.

WisDOT just rebuilt the interchange at exit 119 (Hwy 60), and it's only wide enough for 2 lanes of Hwy 60 underneath I-39/90/94. Would the $8 million offer Buc-ees made towards rebuilding exit 126 (County V) sufficeintly improve throughput at Hwy 60 to support a Buc-ees? Hard to say.

Exit 115 at County CS is getting awfully close to the Dells, but it's just south of the WisDOT rest area. It hasn't had its interchange rebuilt yet, so now would be the time for the Buc-ees folks to snag up property. This is really the only other option that captures all of the Interstate traffic in the area without slamming into Madison-level property values.

mgk920

Quote from: JREwing78 on December 21, 2024, 10:19:02 PMThe last I read was that the difference between the project costs and what Buc-ees was willing to fund was about $8 million. DeForest is trying to get someone else to cover the difference, either Buc-ees or WisDOT. Clearly, WisDOT is not leaping at the opportunity. And so, we have a stalemate.

WisDOT just rebuilt the interchange at exit 119 (Hwy 60), and it's only wide enough for 2 lanes of Hwy 60 underneath I-39/90/94. Would the $8 million offer Buc-ees made towards rebuilding exit 126 (County V) sufficeintly improve throughput at Hwy 60 to support a Buc-ees? Hard to say.

Exit 115 at County CS is getting awfully close to the Dells, but it's just south of the WisDOT rest area. It hasn't had its interchange rebuilt yet, so now would be the time for the Buc-ees folks to snag up property. This is really the only other option that captures all of the Interstate traffic in the area without slamming into Madison-level property values.

It is very common in Wisconsin for suburban townships (and their successors) to pass their legitimate service costs off onto other entities (ie, a township not installing sidewalks and then having the school district, funded mainly by taxes on residents of the adjacent city, bus the kids around the deficient street).

Mike

SEWIGuy

Quote from: JREwing78 on December 21, 2024, 10:19:02 PMThe last I read was that the difference between the project costs and what Buc-ees was willing to fund was about $8 million. DeForest is trying to get someone else to cover the difference, either Buc-ees or WisDOT. Clearly, WisDOT is not leaping at the opportunity. And so, we have a stalemate.

WisDOT just rebuilt the interchange at exit 119 (Hwy 60), and it's only wide enough for 2 lanes of Hwy 60 underneath I-39/90/94. Would the $8 million offer Buc-ees made towards rebuilding exit 126 (County V) sufficeintly improve throughput at Hwy 60 to support a Buc-ees? Hard to say.

Exit 115 at County CS is getting awfully close to the Dells, but it's just south of the WisDOT rest area. It hasn't had its interchange rebuilt yet, so now would be the time for the Buc-ees folks to snag up property. This is really the only other option that captures all of the Interstate traffic in the area without slamming into Madison-level property values.

I think they prefer the municipal services of DeForest versus those of Arlington or Poynette.

on_wisconsin

QuoteBuild it and they did come. Western Wisconsin sees big growth after new bridge.
Matt McKinney
The Minnesota Star Tribune

...
Whether by happenstance or by design, thousands have made the same move into western Wisconsin since the four-lane St. Croix Crossing Bridge opened in 2017 and slashed commute times to the Twin Cities and the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. The rural hamlet of Roberts has grown 20% since the bridge opened, with some of its 2,100 residents moving into a subdivision jokingly referred to as "Little Woodbury."
...
The first locale across the bridge, St. Joseph Township, has seen modest growth of 8% since the bridge opening, while it's 19% in New Richmond.
...
The result is the city's footprint has grown from 6,183 acres in 2015 to 7,674 acres today, said New Richmond City Administrator Noah Wiedenfeld.
https://www.startribune.com/new-residents-flood-wisconsin-over-st-croix-crossing-bridge/601197830
"Speed does not kill, suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson

mgk920

Quote from: on_wisconsin on December 29, 2024, 06:38:21 AM
QuoteBuild it and they did come. Western Wisconsin sees big growth after new bridge.
Matt McKinney
The Minnesota Star Tribune

...
Whether by happenstance or by design, thousands have made the same move into western Wisconsin since the four-lane St. Croix Crossing Bridge opened in 2017 and slashed commute times to the Twin Cities and the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. The rural hamlet of Roberts has grown 20% since the bridge opened, with some of its 2,100 residents moving into a subdivision jokingly referred to as "Little Woodbury."
...
The first locale across the bridge, St. Joseph Township, has seen modest growth of 8% since the bridge opening, while it's 19% in New Richmond.
...
The result is the city's footprint has grown from 6,183 acres in 2015 to 7,674 acres today, said New Richmond City Administrator Noah Wiedenfeld.
https://www.startribune.com/new-residents-flood-wisconsin-over-st-croix-crossing-bridge/601197830

" In other news, the Sun rose in the east yet again this morning . . . "

 :cool:

Mike

The Ghostbuster

There is a DOT study about preserving the existing STH 64 Expressway Corridor: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/nw/wis64freeway/default.aspx. Although they don't plan to expand STH 64 east of STH 65 at the present time, it is possible it may happen at some point in the future.



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