NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway go MUTCD!

[Alps]

I have the authoritative knowledge, but I'm not actually allowed to divulge it. Is it related to the FHWA and funding? Yes. Is it as you state? No.

Sounds like we need to get together and buy Steve dinner.  And if that doesn't work, buy him a few drinks.  And if that doesn't work, buy him some shots...

I accept. You won't get information, but I'll be happy.

[Alps]

Maybe I should file a "Freedom-of-Information-Request" with Steve. You'd think it would be public information.

I don't believe that Steve works for the State of New Jersey, so that would be pretty pointless.

Basically, because they are one of my company's clients, I get privileged information. I'm not saying it to open up any cans of any worms. I just want to say that yes, there is in fact knowledge of the exact reason, so I can shoot down any wild speculation. As an example, I don't want the wrong idea to get out there that anyone has a gun to their head for compliance - you still have a few items in the new documents that aren't in the MUTCD, so clearly there's a bigger story. And I can say this much - in 100% honesty, no one knows what the FHWA will really do over the next several years, probably not even the FHWA itself, in regards to enforcement of some or all of the MUTCD provisions. Remember, they're run by people too, and different people have different views.

[djsinco]

I always liked the unique nature of the signs on the NJT and will be sorry to see them go, but I am a sucker for any nostalgia. Growing up in northern NJ, I "lived" at the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza for several months, sleeping in my gigantic 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood... Who else can lay claim to actually living on the Turnpike? Another memory - my best friends father was on the NJT Commission Board in the early '70's. He was the founder and owner of Taggart Driving Schools, among other things. My friends father would sometimes use Taggarts car. It had a special license plate which required only slowing to 15MPH to cruise through the toll booths. Wouldn't that be the worlds first known EZ-Pass?

[jeffandnicole]

I always liked the unique nature of the signs on the NJT and will be sorry to see them go, but I am a sucker for any nostalgia. Growing up in northern NJ, I "lived" at the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza for several months, sleeping in my gigantic 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood... Who else can lay claim to actually living on the Turnpike? Another memory - my best friends father was on the NJT Commission Board in the early '70's. He was the founder and owner of Taggart Driving Schools, among other things. My friends father would sometimes use Taggarts car. It had a special license plate which required only slowing to 15MPH to cruise through the toll booths. Wouldn't that be the worlds first known EZ-Pass?

I've never heard of such a tag for the NJ Turnpike.  Even the police were required to stop and get a ticket (ok, many of them did not, but the fact is EVERYONE was required to stop).  Are you sure he just didn't toll evade for many years and didn't get caught???!!!

[djsinco]

I always liked the unique nature of the signs on the NJT and will be sorry to see them go, but I am a sucker for any nostalgia. Growing up in northern NJ, I "lived" at the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza for several months, sleeping in my gigantic 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood... Who else can lay claim to actually living on the Turnpike? Another memory - my best friends father was on the NJT Commission Board in the early '70's. He was the founder and owner of Taggart Driving Schools, among other things. My friends father would sometimes use Taggarts car. It had a special license plate which required only slowing to 15MPH to cruise through the toll booths. Wouldn't that be the worlds first known EZ-Pass?

I am absolutely sure. The license plate was not only specially marked at the bottom, but was NJT-1, as he was the president of the Commission.

I've never heard of such a tag for the NJ Turnpike.  Even the police were required to stop and get a ticket (ok, many of them did not, but the fact is EVERYONE was required to stop).  Are you sure he just didn't toll evade for many years and didn't get caught???!!!

As far as that goes, police officers paying a traffic fine in NJ? That is the most corrupt state in that manner. The only state I know of (and I know about every one) with those ridiculous PBA shields in the back window of every Tom, Dick and Harriet who is a third cousin to some LEO. Not to mention the "get out of jail free" calling cards that LEO hand out to their buddies, which get the bearer out of a speeding ticket, DUI, or even much worse. Please don't get me going on this...

[agentsteel53]

I always liked the unique nature of the signs on the NJT and will be sorry to see them go, but I am a sucker for any nostalgia. Growing up in northern NJ, I "lived" at the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza for several months, sleeping in my gigantic 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood... Who else can lay claim to actually living on the Turnpike? Another memory - my best friends father was on the NJT Commission Board in the early '70's. He was the founder and owner of Taggart Driving Schools, among other things. My friends father would sometimes use Taggarts car. It had a special license plate which required only slowing to 15MPH to cruise through the toll booths. Wouldn't that be the worlds first known EZ-Pass?

I've never heard of such a tag for the NJ Turnpike.  Even the police were required to stop and get a ticket (ok, many of them did not, but the fact is EVERYONE was required to stop).  Are you sure he just didn't toll evade for many years and didn't get caught???!!!

I'll bet he slowed down to 15, so that the tollbooth operator could recognize him (by person, vehicle, and/or license plate) and wave him through.  No electronics required. 

[djsinco]

That is correct, I did not imply there was an actual EZ-Pass, merely that it was the same concept.

[SignBridge]

Several pages back in this thread someone noted that on the Western Leg of the Turnpike there is no advance signing southbound for Exit-15E. I drove that stretch this weekend and noted other problems too. That poster was correct about the lack of advance signs.

I also discovered an actual sign error! Again southbound at 15E, there is a sign hung overhead from the Skyway for the beginning of the deceleration lane. And another overhead sign after the Skyway right at the split. And I realized those 2 signs are reversed. You can tell by the arrow type. The one at the split has the "S" curve type arrow normally displayed just before the deceleration lane. And the one on the Skyway structure has the arrow leaning over to the right which is normally displayed at the split. Don't know how long it's been that way. Apparently the installer reversed those 2 almost identical signs. Never thought I'd see an error like that on the NJT.

BTW, you can see this for yourself on Google Earth. Have fun!

[SignBridge]

Southbound to Exit-11 signing in general is in some disarray with a mix of new bright green signs and the older dark green ones, some of which are looking very worn out, especially around Exit-11 interchange. The old ones must be at least 35 years old, from the original dual-lane project.  I'm surprised the Authority lets them deteriorate this badly before replacing them.

I'm wondering if the Turnpike Authority has become a less efficient bureaucracy since taking over the G.S. Parkway. You used to have two reasonable size agencies running each road. Now that it's one big agency, I wonder if it's gotten too big to run efficiently and some attention to detail has been lost. I hope this is not the case, but I fear it is.  This does not bode well for the future of these two formerly well-run roads.

[Alps]

Southbound to Exit-11 signing in general is in some disarray with a mix of new bright green signs and the older dark green ones, some of which are looking very worn out, especially around Exit-11 interchange. The old ones must be at least 35 years old, from the original dual-lane project.  I'm surprised the Authority lets them deteriorate this badly before replacing them.

I'm wondering if the Turnpike Authority has become a less efficient bureaucracy since taking over the G.S. Parkway. You used to have two reasonable size agencies running each road. Now that it's one big agency, I wonder if it's gotten too big to run efficiently and some attention to detail has been lost. I hope this is not the case, but I fear it is.  This does not bode well for the future of these two formerly well-run roads.

The NJTA is very efficient, actually. The reason more signs haven't been replaced is because of the MUTCD effort that led to the new Standard Drawings and Design Manual. Now, there will be a massive sign replacement that will address all of the signs in question. Trust me, you have no reason to doubt them.

[SignBridge]

Okay Steve; I hope you're right. Question though: Are you saying all those brand new bright-green signs with the old format are going to be replaced by new MUTCD compliant signs in the near future? Sounds like an awful waste if that's true.

Also, I looked at those new sign drawings on those links I think you posted earlier. I hope that's not the final version because what I saw there was not all MUTCD compliant. For example: On Exhibit 6-5 they show the supplemental plaque with the distance to the next exit being attached to the "exit-direction" sign at the exit split (gore-point). That is not what the Manual specifies. Sec. 2E-34-03 specifically requires that plaque (if used) to be attached to the last "advance guide sign" nearest the interchange. That means the last sign showing mileage to the exit i.e. 1/2 mile or 1 mile. I'm not an engineer, but I can read a Manual. Please don't tell me they're going to screw up this project by misinterpreting the MUTCD.

[NJRoadfan]

So far they aren't mounted on the actual sign at the exit. Here is one of the advance signs at Exit 2 that they installed recently.



At the exit itself:



Also, the control cities changed here from Chester, PA to Glassboro. So much for an out of state control city. These signs could be made MUTCD on the cheap too. Just green out the Exit 2 and the arrow and tack on an exit tab and standard arrow.

[Ned Weasel]

So far they aren't mounted on the actual sign at the exit. Here is one of the advance signs at Exit 2 that they installed recently.



At the exit itself:



Also, the control cities changed here from Chester, PA to Glassboro. So much for an out of state control city. These signs could be made MUTCD on the cheap too. Just green out the Exit 2 and the arrow and tack on an exit tab and standard arrow.

I would actually support using new signs in this style.  It stays true to the NJTP format for exit numbers and arrows while replacing the "THRU TRAFFIC" signs (with their less than fully accurate down-arrow lane depictions) with something honest and functional (the MUTCD-style pull-through sign, in this case).

(The "THRU TRAFFIC" signs never really bothered me because, [1] if you're on the NJTP, you should already know what road you're on, and [2] one could make a case for omitting the right lane from the down arrows, since the right lane has to compete with merging traffic from the upcoming on-ramp, but I also don't feel that they're a strong part of what makes the NJTP signage special, and thus, I don't feel much is lost by replacing them with simpler, MUTCD-compliant pull-through signs.  But I still defend the NJTP-style advance guide signs, pre-deceleration lane directional signs, and exit gore signs.)

[jeffandnicole]

I always liked the unique nature of the signs on the NJT and will be sorry to see them go, but I am a sucker for any nostalgia. Growing up in northern NJ, I "lived" at the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza for several months, sleeping in my gigantic 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood... Who else can lay claim to actually living on the Turnpike? Another memory - my best friends father was on the NJT Commission Board in the early '70's. He was the founder and owner of Taggart Driving Schools, among other things. My friends father would sometimes use Taggarts car. It had a special license plate which required only slowing to 15MPH to cruise through the toll booths. Wouldn't that be the worlds first known EZ-Pass?

I've never heard of such a tag for the NJ Turnpike.  Even the police were required to stop and get a ticket (ok, many of them did not, but the fact is EVERYONE was required to stop).  Are you sure he just didn't toll evade for many years and didn't get caught???!!!

I'll bet he slowed down to 15, so that the tollbooth operator could recognize him (by person, vehicle, and/or license plate) and wave him through.  No electronics required. 

Unless there was some really special agreement, one of the audit checks for toll workers was to make sure the number of axles going thru a toll lane matched the tickets one had in their machine.  So if a car was 'waved thru', the axle count would be 2 greater than the machine count, which could indicate the toll collector was stealing some cash. There is some paperwork involved if someone went thru without stopping, such as evading a toll. 

BTW, the EZ Pass lanes were signed for 5 mph.  Allowing someone to go thru at 15 mph just doesn't seem reasonable during that era.

[1995hoo]

So far they aren't mounted on the actual sign at the exit. Here is one of the advance signs at Exit 2 that they installed recently.

....

At the exit itself:



Also, the control cities changed here from Chester, PA to Glassboro. So much for an out of state control city. These signs could be made MUTCD on the cheap too. Just green out the Exit 2 and the arrow and tack on an exit tab and standard arrow.

I rather like the arrow here from the standpoint that it's directing you into the deceleration lane, not to the exit itself. The later overhead sign (seen in the background) has an arrow guiding you onto the ramp itself.

But I have a bit of a contrarian streak in me anyway.

[amroad17]

The above photo should be what is at every interchange on the NJTP. 

IMO, the current advance exit signs should still be used.  This is what makes it the NJTP!  If I was able to change anything, I probably would convert the exits to mileage-based as well as adding a few mileage signs--just not after every interchange.  I probably would have one northbound after the toll booths at the south end, each side of exit 6, exit 10, and exit 13, and one southbound after the Lombardi service plaza.  Northbound would involve Camden, Newark, and New York; southbound would include Newark, Camden/Trenton, Philadelphia, and Wilmington (and maybe the mileage to Baltimore after exit 6).

I know that signs should be MUTCD compliant but, as far as the NJTP is concerned, the current advance guide signage and gore signage should remain as they are.  The pull-throughs added are an excellent addition, though.

[SignBridge]

I like those NJT arrows too; as 1995hoo points out they are very intuitive. Better get your photos soon though, 'cause if  there is a change in the forseeable future to MUTCD compliant signs as Steve predicts, those arrows will be no more. The standard arrows used everywhere else will be the new normal on the Turnpike. Those new pull-thru signs with the Turnpike Logo and destination would probably not change, as they are compliant.

I'm having trouble believing that they will scrap those exit signs so soon. Many, like those in the above photos are new as it is. And even if NJTA is ready to completely re-sign the entire road for MUTCD, it will have to take years to accomplish.

[Alps]

I like those NJT arrows too; as 1995hoo points out they are very intuitive. Better get your photos soon though, 'cause if  there is a change in the forseeable future to MUTCD compliant signs as Steve predicts, those arrows will be no more. The standard arrows used everywhere else will be the new normal on the Turnpike. Those new pull-thru signs with the Turnpike Logo and destination would probably not change, as they are compliant.

I'm having trouble believing that they will scrap those exit signs so soon. Many, like those in the above photos are new as it is. And even if NJTA is ready to completely re-sign the entire road for MUTCD, it will have to take years to accomplish.

The newest ones are going to stay. There's no reason to take something down that's less than 5 years old. That'd be everything south of Interchange 9 (once the current widening project is done). So the replacement is essentially Interchange 10 and north, and assorted Parkway signs.

[NJRoadfan]

The newest ones are going to stay. There's no reason to take something down that's less than 5 years old. That'd be everything south of Interchange 9 (once the current widening project is done). So the replacement is essentially Interchange 10 and north, and assorted Parkway signs.

I can't imagine much being replaced on the Parkway. Its already mostly MUTCD signing and with the widening projects, it'll be mostly replaced anyway. Heck some of the NJDOT era signing on the free part is still hanging around! I'll be happy to see those stupid yellow THRU TRAFFIC signs northbound at Exit 145 finally go though. That Exit 166 wannabe NJTP style exit sign will go though.

[akotchi]

Maybe I should file a "Freedom-of-Information-Request" with Steve. You'd think it would be public information.

I don't believe that Steve works for the State of New Jersey, so that would be pretty pointless.

Basically, because they are one of my company's clients, I get privileged information. I'm not saying it to open up any cans of any worms. I just want to say that yes, there is in fact knowledge of the exact reason, so I can shoot down any wild speculation. As an example, I don't want the wrong idea to get out there that anyone has a gun to their head for compliance - you still have a few items in the new documents that aren't in the MUTCD, so clearly there's a bigger story. And I can say this much - in 100% honesty, no one knows what the FHWA will really do over the next several years, probably not even the FHWA itself, in regards to enforcement of some or all of the MUTCD provisions. Remember, they're run by people too, and different people have different views.

But I am sure you are bursting at the seams with juicy information you want to share, but just can't.  I would be, too, as I am in a similar situation on another major NJ project.

So . . . once and for all . . . which spur does the Turnpike consider to be I-95?  Or will both spurs show I-95 shields on their pull-through signing?

[SignBridge]

Steve, you say most of the new MUTCD signs will be from Exit-10 north. Well, what kind of signing will be on the newest dual roadways from the Penn. Tpk. north to the current dual roads when that project's completed? Conventional NJT or MUTCD? Let me guess: old style NJT 'cause they were all ordered from the contractor before the decision was made to go MUTCD? LOL

And I agree with Roadfan about those yellow "Thru Traffic" signs at Exit-145. Definitely not compliant. Can't understand why they used yellow there.

[vdeane]

I'm having trouble believing that they will scrap those exit signs so soon. Many, like those in the above photos are new as it is. And even if NJTA is ready to completely re-sign the entire road for MUTCD, it will have to take years to accomplish.

Any particular reason it would have to take years?  NYSDOT can re-sign an entire road in a single construction season, and have done so in the past.

[SignBridge]

All of NJT and its branches would be a very large project Deanej. Have you ever travelled thru the mixing bowl south of Exit 15E/W thru the Newark Airport area? Lots and lots of overhead signs with 3 roadways in each direction for a few miles. And I don't think NYSDOT is quite the model of efficiency that you say. At least not on Long Island which tends to be more complex with lots more exits than upstate roadways. 

[vdeane]

I am, of course, speaking of upstate.  Downstate, signage seems to be replaced never... it feels like a completely different state down there from what I've seen (never been south of I-287 in state).  I remember reading about a couple of times where NYSDOT was able to replace every sign on the entire length of I-81 within a single construction season; note that I-81's mileage in NY is a fair bit longer than the Turnpike.  Granted, you don't see sign rehabs like that often any more, but that doesn't mean they can't be done.  Recently, region 4 replaced a good 50-70% of their freeway signage during the 2011 construction season.

[cu2010]

There are also considerably fewer signs to replace on many upstate freeways versus downstate ones.