Michigan Notes

[GaryV]

If recent similar work in Wisconsin is any guide, wideninig US-23 between Toledo and Flint requires a sum in the neighborhood of $6-$10 Billion. Or, in other words, 2 to 3 years of the ENTIRE budget for all of MDOT. Oh, and that's *just* for the 90 or so miles of US-23 between the state line and Flint. Add another $3-$5 Billion to punch it up to the north I-475 exit.

Plus the 24-25 miles from Bay City to Standish (concurrent with I-75).

[The Ghostbuster]

The portions with the highest traffic volumes should be expanded first. The portions with lower traffic volumes can be expanded at a later date.

[thenetwork]

But what does it take? I mean they should have known 20-25 years ago that US-23 and I-94 both should be widened.

If recent similar work in Wisconsin is any guide, wideninig US-23 between Toledo and Flint requires a sum in the neighborhood of $6-$10 Billion. Or, in other words, 2 to 3 years of the ENTIRE budget for all of MDOT. Oh, and that's *just* for the 90 or so miles of US-23 between the state line and Flint. Add another $3-$5 Billion to punch it up to the north I-475 exit.

I-94? We're looking at roughly 140-150 miles of upgrades (assuming we simply 6 lane the remaining 4-lane sections between Benton Harbor and Ypsilanti). Figure another $10-$15 Billion - which is the ENTIRE planned 5 year budget for MDOT, or one year of the Michigan general fund allotment.

Conspicuous by its absence in this discussion is I-96, which could use the same treatment. This has about 130 miles of 6-laning necessary - so another $9-$14 Billion.

US-131 between I-94 and M-46 in Cedar Springs - another 70 miles, including 10 miles of heavily urban area. Call it another $9-$12 Billion.

We're easily looking at $55 Billion, for only FOUR highways! The entire budget of the ENTIRE state government for one year? $82.5 Billion.

Let's say it takes us 20 years to do all of these projects. If inflation holds at current rates, now we're at $90 Billion. We have to come up with $4.5 Billion EXTRA per year to pull this off.

Our current fuel tax revenues bring in $1.5 Billion per year. We would need to quadruple the fuel taxes to pull it off. So, instead of 27 cents per gallon, we'll need $1.10 per gallon in fuel taxes - maybe more like $1.20 to $1.30 to fight off the sharp decline in fuel use once they hit.

Anyone standing in line to pay $4/gallon for gas again? I'm a f***ing weirdo who would be fine with it, actually, since it would mean a monumental improvement to traffic congestion and would bring considerable economic benefit. But I'm in a very small minority.

What's really interesting is that one state south in Ohio, they have a moderate gas tax, and their license plate renewals (last time I renewed there) were a flat rate based on the municipality you lived in, and not based on the value and/or weight of the car.  I used to pay a bit north of $40/year for a standard plate.  Despite the low license fees, Ohio can adequately fund most highway rebuilds and expansions when the need arises.

IIRC, Michigan has a higher gas tax and much higher license plate renewal fee than Ohio.  Where is all that money going to?

[michiganguy123]

But what does it take? I mean they should have known 20-25 years ago that US-23 and I-94 both should be widened.

If recent similar work in Wisconsin is any guide, wideninig US-23 between Toledo and Flint requires a sum in the neighborhood of $6-$10 Billion. Or, in other words, 2 to 3 years of the ENTIRE budget for all of MDOT. Oh, and that's *just* for the 90 or so miles of US-23 between the state line and Flint. Add another $3-$5 Billion to punch it up to the north I-475 exit.

I-94? We're looking at roughly 140-150 miles of upgrades (assuming we simply 6 lane the remaining 4-lane sections between Benton Harbor and Ypsilanti). Figure another $10-$15 Billion - which is the ENTIRE planned 5 year budget for MDOT, or one year of the Michigan general fund allotment.

Conspicuous by its absence in this discussion is I-96, which could use the same treatment. This has about 130 miles of 6-laning necessary - so another $9-$14 Billion.

US-131 between I-94 and M-46 in Cedar Springs - another 70 miles, including 10 miles of heavily urban area. Call it another $9-$12 Billion.

We're easily looking at $55 Billion, for only FOUR highways! The entire budget of the ENTIRE state government for one year? $82.5 Billion.

Let's say it takes us 20 years to do all of these projects. If inflation holds at current rates, now we're at $90 Billion. We have to come up with $4.5 Billion EXTRA per year to pull this off.

Our current fuel tax revenues bring in $1.5 Billion per year. We would need to quadruple the fuel taxes to pull it off. So, instead of 27 cents per gallon, we'll need $1.10 per gallon in fuel taxes - maybe more like $1.20 to $1.30 to fight off the sharp decline in fuel use once they hit.

Anyone standing in line to pay $4/gallon for gas again? I'm a f***ing weirdo who would be fine with it, actually, since it would mean a monumental improvement to traffic congestion and would bring considerable economic benefit. But I'm in a very small minority.

What's really interesting is that one state south in Ohio, they have a moderate gas tax, and their license plate renewals (last time I renewed there) were a flat rate based on the municipality you lived in, and not based on the value and/or weight of the car.  I used to pay a bit north of $40/year for a standard plate.  Despite the low license fees, Ohio can adequately fund most highway rebuilds and expansions when the need arises.

IIRC, Michigan has a higher gas tax and much higher license plate renewal fee than Ohio.  Where is all that money going to?

I'm pretty sure Michigan doesn't fund roads with the sales tax part of gasoline

[JREwing78]

Public Act 33, recently signed into law, allows the speed limit on a particular roadway to be set as low as the 50% percentile of speeds (the speed of which half of traffic travels at or below) after a speed study. Previously, the rule of thumb was the 85th percentile speed.

Michigan law changes how communities can adjust speed limits in their area
https://upnorthlive.com/news/local/michigan-law-changes-how-communities-can-adjust-speed-limits-in-their-area-vehicles-grand-traverse-county-road-commission-michigan-state-police-speeding-roads-driving-driver-travel

[JREwing78]

Over the past few years, MDOT has made a number of safety upgrades to the US-131 corridor south of Portage. This includes the Constantine bypass, and the reconstruction of US-131 through the west side of Three Rivers with Michigan Lefts (J-turns).

The past couple of construction seasons has featured reconstruction work between the Shaver Rd intersection south of Portage (north of which US-131 becomes a freeway) and the north side of Three Rivers. Michigan Lefts and median barriers were added throughout, eliminating a stoplight at M-216. It also featured significant reconstruction and improvement to downtown Schoolcraft.

However, US-131 - and all its attendant traffic - still barrels right through the downtown Schoolcraft business district as before. The stoplights at Shaver Rd, U Ave, Lyons St, and Eliza Ave also remain, as well as the level railroad crossing just south of Schoolcraft. This is likely why a 55 mph speed limit remains in place in the rural sections despite the safety improvements. However, the resulting driving experience is calmer, with fewer median crossing locations and fresh, smooth pavement.

This is likely the last of any major US-131 changes south of I-94 for several years, assuming no radical funding changes arise. There are no planned projects on the 2025-2029 Five Year Plan, for instance.


$51M project to add Michigan Lefts to U.S. 131 nears completion
https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/2024/10/51m-project-to-add-michigan-lefts-to-us-131-nears-completion.html

[The Ghostbuster]

There was a proposal in the 1990's to build a western bypass of US 131 in Schoolcraft: https://michiganhighways.org/listings/US-131.html. All that it took to kill it was the objection of one Prairie Ronde Township trustee (there may have been more opposition than the website lets on). Would it have been possible to build an eastern bypass of Schoolcraft?

[afguy]

MDOT is hosting an open house on Nov 7th to discuss the first phase of the I-94 modernization project in Detroit. The first phase is between Barrett and Burns Ave on the city's East Side. Work is anticipated to begin in 2026.

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/10/28/mdot-community-meeting-nov-7-to-discuss-updates-on-i-94-modernization-project-in-detroit

[74/171FAN]

From Friday:  M-139 reopening today in Berrien County as culvert replacement project is completed

[JREwing78]

There was a proposal in the 1990's to build a western bypass of US 131 in Schoolcraft: https://michiganhighways.org/listings/US-131.html. All that it took to kill it was the objection of one Prairie Ronde Township trustee (there may have been more opposition than the website lets on). Would it have been possible to build an eastern bypass of Schoolcraft?

Possible? Yes. It would require taking more improved property and 2 additional railroad overpasses over the western alternative. However, keeping it all in Schoolcraft Twp would be politically advantageous - the folks most to benefit would likely be more willing to sacrifice.

[afguy]

I-75 could see 3 separate 'lids' along downtown freeway

One or more "lids" on I-75 in downtown Detroit could offer a small outdoor event venue, walking trails, pop-up retail, farmers market space and more, project organizers said Tuesday evening.

In fact, three separate caps over the freeway could highlight different features of Detroit's history, display local art and connect residents and visitors to shopping and downtown events, planners shared during their final public meeting on a proposed I-75 "overbuild." The Michigan Department of Transportation, Downtown Detroit Partnership and the city of Detroit are still seeking feedback from the community on what each cap should encompass. At the end of the presentation Tuesday at the Michigan State University Detroit Center downtown, attendees were invited to engage with presenters and make notes on the proposal.

"This project is all about creating a community-led vision for what reconnecting the downtown to the lower Cass and Brush Park neighborhoods could look like," James Fidler, project manager and urban evolution strategist for the DDP, told Crain's. Five Detroit-area AECOM consultants are working on the overbuild project, according to Jeromie Windsor, a multi-modal transportation planner for the infrastructure consulting firm.

AECOM consultants considered cap options along I-75 between Third Avenue to the west to Brush Street to the east, in the vicinity of Ford Field, Comerica Park and Little Caesars Arena. The first proposed cap, or the West Cap, could be located between Third and Grand River avenues or between Grand River and Second avenues.

The Central Cap would be built at Woodward Avenue.

Brush Park residents Kevin Wobbe and Ralph Scolari said Tuesday that they want to see that cap straddle Woodward, as a way to highlight Detroit's most significant byway, while providing space for residents and visitors to enjoy.

"It would be nice to have more of a community space for the people that live there already, in addition to all the people that come down for sporting events," Wobbe said.

The East Cap would be located between John R and Brush streets.

Each of three proposed caps would be 600-800 feet in length.

Scolari said that while he would prefer for the entire stretch of I-75 under consideration to be capped, he knows it's not plausible. Three separate caps, however, would ensure more neighborhoods are able to benefit from the park and community spaces.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/politics-policy/i-75-could-get-3-lids-along-downtown-detroit-freeway

[GaryV]

I-75 could see 3 separate 'lids' along downtown freeway

I hope they're better than the ones on I-696 that need replacing.

[wanderer2575]

I-75 could see 3 separate 'lids' along downtown freeway

I hope they're better than the ones on I-696 that need replacing.

Only one is being replaced (the eastern one at Church Street), and at an open house meeting I attended a few months ago the MDOT guy said that cap structures today are nothing like how they were designed in the '80s for I-696.

On a separate note:  The Woodward overpass was redecked, then demolished and completely rebuilt not long afterward to accommodate the QLine streetcars.  It would be a shame to see it demolished again if that's necessary to incorporate it into a cap.

[Flint1979]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

[thenetwork]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

You could say the freeway network was underdone during the height of the Big 4 automaker's success in the 60s and 70s.  There was no I-275, I-696 was just a small fraction of it's current self, and I-96 kinda disappeared between Novi and Detroit.

Detroit loved the cars they made, though, which is why they made those wide, multi-laned, divided boulevards (Telegraph, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, 8 Mile...) so people could drive freely around the area well before the freeway system was completed.

If anything, it's those surface streets that are overdone, not the freeways themselves.
 

[Rothman]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

You could say the freeway network was underdone during the height of the Big 4 automaker's success in the 60s and 70s.  There was no I-275, I-696 was just a small fraction of it's current self, and I-96 kinda disappeared between Novi and Detroit.

Detroit loved the cars they made, though, which is why they made those wide, multi-laned, divided boulevards (Telegraph, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, 8 Mile...) so people could drive freely around the area well before the freeway system was completed.

If anything, it's those surface streets that are overdone, not the freeways themselves.
 

The fact MI concluded that I-96 could be fully closed for construction some years back shows that the system is overbuilt.

[wanderer2575]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

You could say the freeway network was underdone during the height of the Big 4 automaker's success in the 60s and 70s.  There was no I-275, I-696 was just a small fraction of it's current self, and I-96 kinda disappeared between Novi and Detroit.

Detroit loved the cars they made, though, which is why they made those wide, multi-laned, divided boulevards (Telegraph, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, 8 Mile...) so people could drive freely around the area well before the freeway system was completed.

If anything, it's those surface streets that are overdone, not the freeways themselves.
 

The fact MI concluded that I-96 could be fully closed for construction some years back shows that the system is overbuilt.

The main detour routes during that I-96 closure were various combinations of Telegraph, 8 Mile, and Grand River.  Not other freeways.

Where one can argue the freeways are overdone is in downtown Detroit, with I-75 and I-94 being less than a mile apart (east-west) and I-75 and M-10 being less than a mile apart (north-south).  But so much of it is outdated that it still can't handle the traffic volume.

[Rothman]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

You could say the freeway network was underdone during the height of the Big 4 automaker's success in the 60s and 70s.  There was no I-275, I-696 was just a small fraction of it's current self, and I-96 kinda disappeared between Novi and Detroit.

Detroit loved the cars they made, though, which is why they made those wide, multi-laned, divided boulevards (Telegraph, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, 8 Mile...) so people could drive freely around the area well before the freeway system was completed.

If anything, it's those surface streets that are overdone, not the freeways themselves.
 

The fact MI concluded that I-96 could be fully closed for construction some years back shows that the system is overbuilt.

The main detour routes during that I-96 closure were various combinations of Telegraph, 8 Mile, and Grand River.  Not other freeways.

Just because the detour was on surface roads doesn't mean the system isn't overbuilt.

[Revive 755]

The fact MI concluded that I-96 could be fully closed for construction some years back shows that the system is overbuilt.

Or MI is using the same thinking/analysis as INDOT given how often there's some interstate closed around Indianapolis (where the system is not overbuilt).

[bulldog1979]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

You could say the freeway network was underdone during the height of the Big 4 automaker's success in the 60s and 70s.  There was no I-275, I-696 was just a small fraction of it's current self, and I-96 kinda disappeared between Novi and Detroit.

Detroit loved the cars they made, though, which is why they made those wide, multi-laned, divided boulevards (Telegraph, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, 8 Mile...) so people could drive freely around the area well before the freeway system was completed.

If anything, it's those surface streets that are overdone, not the freeways themselves.
 

The main streets in Detroit were plotted on 120-foot-wide rights-of-way in 1805, although it took until the 1930s to expand Woodward Avenue out to its full width. It was 66 feet wide until legal disputes from 1874 were settled in 1932.

[Ted$8roadFan]

I was in Detroit last week. Even though the infrastructure was designed for a city much larger than it is now, I'm not sure I would consider the freeways overbuilt, especially I-94. The city streets are a different story.

[Flint1979]

I hate how Detroit's freeways are laid out and it's too overdone.

You could say the freeway network was underdone during the height of the Big 4 automaker's success in the 60s and 70s.  There was no I-275, I-696 was just a small fraction of it's current self, and I-96 kinda disappeared between Novi and Detroit.

Detroit loved the cars they made, though, which is why they made those wide, multi-laned, divided boulevards (Telegraph, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, 8 Mile...) so people could drive freely around the area well before the freeway system was completed.

If anything, it's those surface streets that are overdone, not the freeways themselves.
 

Also both Oakland and Macomb counties have more than twice the population than they did back then, same for western Wayne County. There's about a million more people living in Metro Detroit today than in 1950 with Detroit proper having 1.2 million less residents. I would say the freeways are to blame for the sprawl as well as the 1967 riots but that was early on in the freeway building days too.

I was on Mound Road last night from 16 Mile all the way to Mt. Elliot in Detroit that is one of those roads they overbuilt with a freeway in mind, the overbuilt interchange at I-696 and Mound Road is evidence of that which is pretty well known. Some of the freeways are overbuilt such as I-96 on the west side of Detroit and some of them are underbuilt such as I-94 through the entire state of Michigan.

[wanderer2575]

MDOT will be letting a contract (12/06/2024, item number 2412-010) for reconstruction and rehabilitation around the US-131/BS US-131 interchange on the northwest side of Kalamazoo, and the project will include constructing new ramps for the missing movements at that interchange -- nbd US-131 to sbd BS US-131, and nbd BS US-131 to sbd US-131 (which will be a left-hand merge).



Interestingly, plans for the new signs at the northern BS US-131 terminus make no reference to M-43's what-the-heck concurrency with US-131.

[Great Lakes Roads]

MDOT will be letting a contract (12/06/2024, item number 2412-010) for reconstruction and rehabilitation around the US-131/BS US-131 interchange on the northwest side of Kalamazoo, and the project will include constructing new ramps for the missing movements at that interchange -- nbd US-131 to sbd BS US-131, and nbd BS US-131 to sbd US-131 (which will be a left-hand merge).



Interestingly, plans for the new signs at the northern BS US-131 terminus make no reference to M-43's what-the-heck concurrency with US-131.

100% going to be a game-changer to the Kalamazoo region! 

[wanderer2575]

MDOT is hosting an open house on Nov 7th to discuss the first phase of the I-94 modernization project in Detroit. The first phase is between Barrett and Burns Ave on the city's East Side. Work is anticipated to begin in 2026.

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2024/10/28/mdot-community-meeting-nov-7-to-discuss-updates-on-i-94-modernization-project-in-detroit

I attended the open house, up to the Q&A at the end.  (The questions are always about "What's being done for community involvement even though I personally have ignored every communication for the past 20 years" and numbers of city residents being hired.  Also, there was a boatload of pizza and I was going to create a gluttonous scene if I stayed much longer.)

Anyway, the presentation was primarily about two changes to the phase 1 plans.

• Construction of a drainage tunnel along at least part of the length, probably similar to what was built for I-75 at I-696.  They didn't say if it will be extended west during later phases.
• Change to the design of the Iron Belle bike path in front of Wayne County Community College.  Part of it needs to be bridged to avoid an earth stabilization issue and they showed a few possible concepts.

Construction of the tunnel is anticipated to be in 2026 thru 2028, and construction of remaining bridges, service drives, and freeway anticipated to be 2028 thru 2031.  Mind you, this phase is a two-mile length, less than one-third of the total.  I predict this whole thing won't be done in my lifetime.

A few other items I gleaned from the displays:

• The Conner Avenue interchange will be replaced with a diverging diamond, with the Iron Belle trail on its own bridge a bit to the west.
• The tight Gratiot Avenue B-2 parclo interchange will be replaced with a fairly tight diamond.  This I knew, but the display showed the factoid that the current interchange has the highest number of wrong-way driver incidents in the state.
• The French Road interchange ramps will be eliminated to allow for longer ramps at the Gratiot and Conner interchanges.  The service drives will be extended under the railroad tracks west of Conner to help preserve access.

ETA:  The open house scheduled for tomorrow at the Hazel Park library to present the findings of the feasibility study of the I-75/M-102 interchange replacement has been postponed until later this year or early 2025.  The reason for postponement is "so that the project team can refine their designs before presenting them to the public."