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[AlexandriaVA]

Highways, however, RELY on federal funding.  Without federal funding, the projects don't move forward

As do defense contractors...as does Medicare/Medicaid...as does [federal function]. Again, everyone's issue is the Most Important One in their own minds. Where the money goes is a political issue, and highways are just one of several lobbies gunning for their piece of the pie.

That, by the way, is the whole point of the political process. The people own that money, and the elected representatives (not unelected transportation bureaucrats) are the stewards of that cash. If the people want gas tax monies to pay for free dessert for everyone, and the legislature signs off, then everyone get their ice cream spoons out.

Without federal funding, states can't maintain their roads...Many states are already declaring that certain roads and bridges will not be maintained and will just be closed when they are no longer safe.  Homes and businesses accessed through those roads will no longer be accessible.  This is happening NOW, with current funding levels. 

Sounds some states built too many roads.

Many states have high gas taxes but below average transportation funding because the funds are raided.

That's my whole point. Money is money. It shouldn't matter how a state government got its hands on it. If you need to spend money on roads, spend it. I don't care if it came from a gas tax, income tax, or bubblegum tax.

How would you keep the infrastructure maintained and accessible to all?

By spending money from the general fund, just as Congress is doing now. And I would spend monies from the general fund on any and all transportation projects that needed funding...highways, mass transits, airports, etc. Because clearly our Highway System is not self-sustaining anymore, and like all other major transportation, it will require subisides.

[AlexandriaVA]

So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

This seems like a needless non sequitur.

[froggie]

So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

Val, did you stop to consider that perhaps he lives in Alexandria?  Wouldn't be the first time we had a user on here who used their location of residence in their username...

[cpzilliacus]

I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.

Left unsaid, of course, is volume as well.

That's because speed limit is independent of volume. Set properly, the speed limit is the 85th percentile of free-flow speed - i.e. when traffic is light enough to go the speed that the roadway design warrants.

You are, of course, correct about 85th percentile.

But perhaps more than any other freeway in the D.C. area, the speeds on the Southeast/Southwest Freeway (I-695 and I-395 respectively) tend to vary widely (and wildly). 

Because it is so short (3.4 miles from the Virginia side of the 14th Street Bridge to the Anacostia River and 3.5 miles in the other direction), the difference in travel time is so small as to be almost irrelevant, regardless of if the speed limit is 35, 40, 45 or 50 (maximum posted limit in the District of Columbia is 50).

[vdeane]

Highways, however, RELY on federal funding.  Without federal funding, the projects don't move forward

As do defense contractors...as does Medicare/Medicaid...as does [federal function]. Again, everyone's issue is the Most Important One in their own minds. Where the money goes is a political issue, and highways are just one of several lobbies gunning for their piece of the pie.

That, by the way, is the whole point of the political process. The people own that money, and the elected representatives (not unelected transportation bureaucrats) are the stewards of that cash. If the people want gas tax monies to pay for free dessert for everyone, and the legislature signs off, then everyone get their ice cream spoons out.

Without federal funding, states can't maintain their roads...Many states are already declaring that certain roads and bridges will not be maintained and will just be closed when they are no longer safe.  Homes and businesses accessed through those roads will no longer be accessible.  This is happening NOW, with current funding levels. 

Sounds some states built too many roads.

Many states have high gas taxes but below average transportation funding because the funds are raided.

That's my whole point. Money is money. It shouldn't matter how a state government got its hands on it. If you need to spend money on roads, spend it. I don't care if it came from a gas tax, income tax, or bubblegum tax.

How would you keep the infrastructure maintained and accessible to all?

By spending money from the general fund, just as Congress is doing now. And I would spend monies from the general fund on any and all transportation projects that needed funding...highways, mass transits, airports, etc. Because clearly our Highway System is not self-sustaining anymore, and like all other major transportation, it will require subisides.

When the Highway Trust Fund was set up, the federal government made a promise.  A promise is the same thing as an obligation.  And the federal government has been delinquent on that obligation through its refusal to raise the gas tax.  The fact is, the gas tax has been effectively shrinking due to inflation, construction cost increases, etc. for DECADES now, and still nothing has been done.  Now, most of the public is so financially illiterate it's hard to believe they're still even alive, but it is the job of politicians and the media to educate the public so that they are not.  BOTH have been delinquent in that duty, and I suspect maliciously so.  There's been a push for quite some time now for a mileage tax, and I believe that the gas tax and the highway trust fund are belong deliberately sabotaged in order to pave the way for a mileage tax (as that is the only way to get Americans to consent to GPS tracking of their cars, along with whatever other draconian things that will be pushed through with the tax).

Your argument also hinges on whether representatives represent the people in practice in addition to theory.  That is dangerous assumption to make.  Plus, do you really trust the public to make transportation decisions?  I don't.  A large chunk of them doesn't even know that roads cost money to maintain, not just to build.  And the politicians can't be trusted either, as they'll just let everything rot while their pet project gets done.  I can count the number of ethical politicians on one hand, and that includes federal, state, AND local levels combined, as well as foreign governments.  Plus, most people in budget offices don't have a clue how much transportation stuff REALLY costs and give much less money than needed.  It doesn't help that politicians have a habit of slicing and dicing funds to the point where you can't spend it on what you need because every dollar has a very specific purpose that can't go to anything else (especially an issue in NY right now as Cuomo likes to micromanage).

The states I'm thinking of aren't the ones building/proposing pie in the sky things like I-11 between Vegas and I-80.  They're just maintaining the same system they've always had, except the money supply is shrinking every year.

Alas, "money is money" CAUSES these problems.  And taking from the general fund doesn't work.  For example, one of the ways they are "paying" for highway projects is by forcing the IRS to use private debt collectors to collect unpaid taxes.  They claim this will save money.  That's also what they claimed the last time they tried to do that, and it ended up COSTING money.  That's how it works.  They pay for stuff now through "savings" that are supposed to come "later" but then the savings never come.  There are various reasons for this, but it all comes down of incompetent buffoonery (and corruption) in the end.  The civil service system isn't perfect, but I'd argue politicians are worse.

So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

This seems like a needless non sequitur.

In response to that which you deleted last night: the policies of Alexandria affect those outside of Alexandria.  Someone should not be forced to move because of that.

So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

Val, did you stop to consider that perhaps he lives in Alexandria?  Wouldn't be the first time we had a user on here who used their location of residence in their username...

I've figured that for a long time now.  Still, it's interesting, especially given that his posting history suggests that he agrees with the NIMBYs.  It's as if he's saying "Ha!  Look at the guy who's from the place that ruined the I-95/395 HOT lane project who is now on a highway forum!".

[AlexandriaVA]

I suspect that the careers of many on here are predicated on the expectation of federal highway funding, so it makes sense that they would get defensive if the funding is at risk (or perceived to be at risk), but again, I still don't really see how any of this is fundamentally different than any other political issue with interested parties. You could replace the words pertaining to roads with military/security or health/retirement and you'd basically be talking about defense budget or the non-discretionary non-defense budget (Medicare/Medicaid/SS).

Regarding the "promises", politicians have made and broken promises countless times, many of which have been much more serious than delays in highway appropriations. Talk to some Indians about government promises.

Generally people blame legislators when they should be blaming themselves. This appears to be no different.

[AlexandriaVA]

The fact is, the gas tax has been effectively shrinking due to inflation, construction cost increases, etc. for DECADES now, and still nothing has been done.

Many voters would fail to see any issue with this. Seeing the way people react to changes in gas prices, I think that most politicians have decided that boosting the gas tax is a non-starter for them.

Now, most of the public is so financially illiterate it's hard to believe they're still even alive

Your argument also hinges on whether representatives represent the people in practice in addition to theory.  That is dangerous assumption to make

Plus, do you really trust the public to make transportation decisions?  I don't

And the politicians can't be trusted either, as they'll just let everything rot while their pet project gets done

The civil service system isn't perfect, but I'd argue politicians are worse

Contempt for constituents and the people for whom they vote is not typically a winning strategy.

[AlexandriaVA]

I've figured that for a long time now.  Still, it's interesting, especially given that his posting history suggests that he agrees with the NIMBYs.  It's as if he's saying "Ha!  Look at the guy who's from the place that ruined the I-95/395 HOT lane project who is now on a highway forum!".

As you may know, 395/95 is the responsibility of the state (Virginia) government as it is part of the Interstate Highway System. Perhaps Arlington and Alexandria carry more clout in Richmond than counties and independent cities in the commuter belt, but that's not my problem.

[vdeane]

The fact is, the gas tax has been effectively shrinking due to inflation, construction cost increases, etc. for DECADES now, and still nothing has been done.

Many voters would fail to see any issue with this. Seeing the way people react to changes in gas prices, I think that most politicians have decided that boosting the gas tax is a non-starter for them.

That doesn't make it right.  Most people don't seem to realize that inflation is a thing that happens regardless of whether their wages are going up.  Then they blame the government if prices go up regardless of what really caused the price increase.  As I said, the politicians should be EDUCATING people on why this is not so (honestly, I'd support a test that people would be required to pass to vote to nullify this effect).  These are the same people who will invariably complain when many roads are congested and others are outright closed.  Of course, by then it will be too late, which is why education needs to start now.  I can't think of any alternative to the gas tax that isn't somehow worse.

Now, most of the public is so financially illiterate it's hard to believe they're still even alive

Your argument also hinges on whether representatives represent the people in practice in addition to theory.  That is dangerous assumption to make

Plus, do you really trust the public to make transportation decisions?  I don't

And the politicians can't be trusted either, as they'll just let everything rot while their pet project gets done

The civil service system isn't perfect, but I'd argue politicians are worse

Contempt for constituents and the people they vote for is not typically a winning strategy.

It's hard to have any faith in politicians when one reads as many news stories from alternative media as I do.  It doesn't help that I'm essentially a fish out of water on this planet.

[AlexandriaVA]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just think that one needs to be realistic about the political lay of the land.

Like any other department or recipient of outlays, highway advocates need to fight for every dollar. Previous promises are just words on paper to politicians, whether it's fair or not.

And there's no need to make it personal. I live extremely close to an Interstate, probably closer than most of the people on this forum (lest I be called a NIMBY) and I use it on a near-daily basis. I also like to see it kept maintained properly. I don't particularly care where the money for maintenance comes from...gas tax, income tax, sales tax, soda tax, bear tax, Homer tax, etc etc.

And, I wouldn't vote for a politician who didn't support proper subsidization of the highway system, along with transit and pedestrian improvements as well. Like with highways, I couldn't care less where the funding for those projects come from either.

[AlexandriaVA]

(honestly, I'd support a test that people would be required to pass to vote to nullify this effect)

A (financial) literacy test as a requirement for voting? Perhaps you should re-read your US history...

[mrsman]

I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.

Left unsaid, of course, is volume as well.

That's because speed limit is independent of volume. Set properly, the speed limit is the 85th percentile of free-flow speed - i.e. when traffic is light enough to go the speed that the roadway design warrants.

You are, of course, correct about 85th percentile.

But perhaps more than any other freeway in the D.C. area, the speeds on the Southeast/Southwest Freeway (I-695 and I-395 respectively) tend to vary widely (and wildly). 

Because it is so short (3.4 miles from the Virginia side of the 14th Street Bridge to the Anacostia River and 3.5 miles in the other direction), the difference in travel time is so small as to be almost irrelevant, regardless of if the speed limit is 35, 40, 45 or 50 (maximum posted limit in the District of Columbia is 50).

I absolutely consider the 40 MPH zone on an interstate highway with a speed camera to be a revenue trap.

[cpzilliacus]

I suspect that the careers of many on here are predicated on the expectation of federal highway transportation funding, so it makes sense that they would get defensive if the funding is at risk (or perceived to be at risk), but again, I still don't really see how any of this is fundamentally different than any other political issue with interested parties.

FTFY.

Much (not all) of my personal income comes from federal, state and some local transportation funding. 

To expand on what Valerie wrote above, politicians and others made a commitment many decades ago that current politicians (even those that bow to anti-tax (as well as anti-highway and anti-transit) activists) are obligated to meet.  We have a very expensive system (in part because of the size of the nation) that mostly relies on those taxes for upkeep and in many cases reconstruction.  And that specifically includes transit systems like the Washington Metro, Bay Area BART, SEPTA and the huge system in metropolitan New York, some of which were built using dollars other than federal motor fuel taxes, but now are profoundly reliant on those to clear (some of) their maintenance backlogs (there's not much expansion going on, so I am not going to discuss that here).

In general, the only parts of the system that rely entirely on non-federal sources of dollars are low-functional-class roads and streets (depending on the jurisdiction, funding for those may be from private homeowners associations, condo associations, county or municipal property taxes, state motor fuel taxes and sometimes special tax districts of various kinds).  But the higher functional classification parts of the network (arterials and freeways) usually rely on state and federal motor fuel taxes, with the exceptions of toll roads and toll crossings, which tend to be self-funded in terms of maintenance.

You could replace the words pertaining to roads with military/security or health/retirement and you'd basically be talking about defense budget or the non-discretionary non-defense budget (Medicare/Medicaid/SS).

Even the most ardent anti-tax activist is not going to touch Medicare and Social Security (Medicaid, because it mostly serves indigent people, is a different matter).

[The Nature Boy]

I also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

[Pete from Boston]

I also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

In the world that every interest competes for funding, and every competitor characterizes all the rest as niche players.  That's all it means.

[Pete from Boston]

It's hard to have any faith in politicians when one reads as many news stories from alternative media as I do.  It doesn't help that I'm essentially a fish out of water on this planet.

Alternative media?  I would say if one really needs to go beyond mainstream media to not have faith in politicians, one must be willfully looking the other way.  Of course, this dabbles in crossing into prohibited territory for this forum, but the most idealistic politician necessarily has to compromise his/her values eventually to appease those that are needed to stay in office.  All one needs is a little understanding of human nature to lose faith in politicians.

[froggie]

I also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

Besides what Pete said.....just the way you worded this, without any consideration of trains or planes or riverboats for "long distance travel", gives the impression of Interstate funding as a special interest.  And that may be what Pete was getting at with his niche comment.

[Pete from Boston]

I just meant that "special interests" is usually political PR shorthand for "[money-diverting] interests other than those I champion."  It's a marginalizing technique.

It's best to consider it in this context rather than take the face value too seriously.

[vdeane]

It's hard to have any faith in politicians when one reads as many news stories from alternative media as I do.  It doesn't help that I'm essentially a fish out of water on this planet.

Alternative media?  I would say if one really needs to go beyond mainstream media to not have faith in politicians, one must be willfully looking the other way.  Of course, this dabbles in crossing into prohibited territory for this forum, but the most idealistic politician necessarily has to compromise his/her values eventually to appease those that are needed to stay in office.  All one needs is a little understanding of human nature to lose faith in politicians.

Let's just say that alternative media can make it easy to cross from "the system has problems but can be fixed if we vote, call our congressman, sign petitions, etc." to being a cynical conspiracy theorist.

[The Nature Boy]

I also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

Besides what Pete said.....just the way you worded this, without any consideration of trains or planes or riverboats for "long distance travel", gives the impression of Interstate funding as a special interest.  And that may be what Pete was getting at with his niche comment.

The problem is that all of those are often prohibitively expensive for a family. It's far cheaper to put a family of 4 in the mini-van and drive down the interstate than it is to buy tickets on anything for all four. The interstate highway system is still the dominant mode of transportation for anyone doing long distance travel.

The majority of goods in this country are also carried via the interstate, even our mail is often carried from place to place via the interstate (even if its flown, it still has to get from the airport). I cannot think of a single more important asset to our economy than the interstate highway system. It literally is how we move people and things.

[Alex]

Picked up a 1942 Washington, DC map earlier this week. Just took a look at it this evening and noticed some old alignments of US routes that were new to me in addition to DC 4/5. I posted a few scans and a review at https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2016/01/20/washington-d-c-1942-map/

[cpzilliacus]

Picked up a 1942 Washington, DC map earlier this week. Just took a look at it this evening and noticed some old alignments of US routes that were new to me in addition to DC 4/5. I posted a few scans and a review at https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2016/01/20/washington-d-c-1942-map/

Have seen at least one image of a D.C. 4 sign in the downtown area near or on Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., but not D.C. 5.

But there were green signs on eastbound Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E. leading up to present-day Branch Avenue, S.E. showing signs that said "TO Route 5" not that long ago (but are all gone now).

I have seen other maps also showing U.S. 240 coming (barely) into Arlington County, Va. at the present-day interchange of the George Washington Memorial Parkway and I-395/U.S. 1.  There was also Alternate U.S. 240, which followed Connecticut Avenue, N.W. out to Maryland (U.S. 240 always followed Wisconsin Avenue north from Georgetown.

I recall seeing a U.S. 211 sign or two in Georgetown, or maybe on the Whitehurst Freeway.

[cpzilliacus]

Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.

The Circulator is a huge improvement.

[Rothman]

Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.

^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.

[cpzilliacus]

Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.

^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.

Tourists did not know how expensive it was until they boarded.

Beyond that, there was an added "bonus" - it operated on hours that were established in a contract between NPS and Tourmobile - in the 1960's, so it shut-down every afternoon (even in the peak spring and summer tourist) between 4 P.M. and 6 P.M., after that, tourists were mostly out of luck.