NYC Congestion Pricing

[kalvado]

Academy got cut off from running the local routes because they were not actually running all the trips that they were contractually supposed to be running and the state got sick of the scam.

Other private operators like Decamp and Coach USA (aka ONE Bus) are in the process of ending all their public bus routes and now only doing charter routes, because they're not profitable for them anymore. They also received state subsidies in the form of free leased buses to use on their commuter routes.

The only reason they lasted so long was receiving government subsidies, which were only given in the first place because NJ Transit is legally prohibited from competing with private bus companies.

The very fact that there are "trips that they were contractually supposed to be running" diminishes the private-ness of the business model.

It's a sticky situation.  Heavy government investment seems to be the only way to make a public transit network actually work well.  But, as soon as the government takes the reins, it becomes responsible to the public for how it spends their money, therefore it seeks to trim the budget as much as it can.  So the government shares a bed with private enterprise, and in the process limiting the very freedom and flexibility that makes private enterprise an attractive solution in the first place.

Amtrak anyone?

I still remember when certain Pace bus routes (Chicago suburban bus service) started getting contracted out to Laidlaw and First Student, and they ran a lot of those schedules with yellow school buses.  The paper timetables said all Pace buses had bike racks, yet none of those yellow buses had bike racks.

After much thought, I still think that subsidizing riders rather than transit system makes at least some sense. At least it forces transit to attract riders and not just go after government money.
We are used to transit being much cheaper than any alternative, while transit is in fact expensive. People don't value something they get on a cheap, moreso free stuff.

[Rothman]

Academy got cut off from running the local routes because they were not actually running all the trips that they were contractually supposed to be running and the state got sick of the scam.

Other private operators like Decamp and Coach USA (aka ONE Bus) are in the process of ending all their public bus routes and now only doing charter routes, because they're not profitable for them anymore. They also received state subsidies in the form of free leased buses to use on their commuter routes.

The only reason they lasted so long was receiving government subsidies, which were only given in the first place because NJ Transit is legally prohibited from competing with private bus companies.

The very fact that there are "trips that they were contractually supposed to be running" diminishes the private-ness of the business model.

It's a sticky situation.  Heavy government investment seems to be the only way to make a public transit network actually work well.  But, as soon as the government takes the reins, it becomes responsible to the public for how it spends their money, therefore it seeks to trim the budget as much as it can.  So the government shares a bed with private enterprise, and in the process limiting the very freedom and flexibility that makes private enterprise an attractive solution in the first place.

Amtrak anyone?

I still remember when certain Pace bus routes (Chicago suburban bus service) started getting contracted out to Laidlaw and First Student, and they ran a lot of those schedules with yellow school buses.  The paper timetables said all Pace buses had bike racks, yet none of those yellow buses had bike racks.

Just keep it public.  It's providing a public service that will never be profitable, which shouldn't be a goal anyway.

[kalvado]

Academy got cut off from running the local routes because they were not actually running all the trips that they were contractually supposed to be running and the state got sick of the scam.

Other private operators like Decamp and Coach USA (aka ONE Bus) are in the process of ending all their public bus routes and now only doing charter routes, because they're not profitable for them anymore. They also received state subsidies in the form of free leased buses to use on their commuter routes.

The only reason they lasted so long was receiving government subsidies, which were only given in the first place because NJ Transit is legally prohibited from competing with private bus companies.

The very fact that there are "trips that they were contractually supposed to be running" diminishes the private-ness of the business model.

It's a sticky situation.  Heavy government investment seems to be the only way to make a public transit network actually work well.  But, as soon as the government takes the reins, it becomes responsible to the public for how it spends their money, therefore it seeks to trim the budget as much as it can.  So the government shares a bed with private enterprise, and in the process limiting the very freedom and flexibility that makes private enterprise an attractive solution in the first place.

Amtrak anyone?

I still remember when certain Pace bus routes (Chicago suburban bus service) started getting contracted out to Laidlaw and First Student, and they ran a lot of those schedules with yellow school buses.  The paper timetables said all Pace buses had bike racks, yet none of those yellow buses had bike racks.

Just keep it public.  It's providing a public service that will never be profitable, which shouldn't be a goal anyway.

It shouldn't be a major profit center, true. But being more or less close to breakeven is a good idea - for roads (yes, gas taxes), power, water, sewer etc. Otherwise those pretty expensive things end up in disrespect and disrepair.
Case in point, MTA farebox doesn't cover MTA payroll.  That's anything but healthy, from my perspective.

[Ellie]

Academy got cut off from running the local routes because they were not actually running all the trips that they were contractually supposed to be running and the state got sick of the scam.

Other private operators like Decamp and Coach USA (aka ONE Bus) are in the process of ending all their public bus routes and now only doing charter routes, because they're not profitable for them anymore. They also received state subsidies in the form of free leased buses to use on their commuter routes.

The only reason they lasted so long was receiving government subsidies, which were only given in the first place because NJ Transit is legally prohibited from competing with private bus companies.

The very fact that there are "trips that they were contractually supposed to be running" diminishes the private-ness of the business model.

It's a sticky situation.  Heavy government investment seems to be the only way to make a public transit network actually work well.  But, as soon as the government takes the reins, it becomes responsible to the public for how it spends their money, therefore it seeks to trim the budget as much as it can.  So the government shares a bed with private enterprise, and in the process limiting the very freedom and flexibility that makes private enterprise an attractive solution in the first place.

Amtrak anyone?

I still remember when certain Pace bus routes (Chicago suburban bus service) started getting contracted out to Laidlaw and First Student, and they ran a lot of those schedules with yellow school buses.  The paper timetables said all Pace buses had bike racks, yet none of those yellow buses had bike racks.

Just keep it public.  It's providing a public service that will never be profitable, which shouldn't be a goal anyway.

It shouldn't be a major profit center, true. But being more or less close to breakeven is a good idea - for roads (yes, gas taxes), power, water, sewer etc. Otherwise those pretty expensive things end up in disrespect and disrepair.
Case in point, MTA farebox doesn't cover MTA payroll.  That's anything but healthy, from my perspective.

This is a pretty narrow way of looking at such things. Transportation, whichever its type, enables development and commerce. Fuel taxes come nowhere near maintaining all the roads in the country; much of the money comes from property, income, and other sales taxes. New York wouldn't have nearly the same taxbase as it has now if not for the MTA; it's much better to allow the MTA to be affordable to use and to subsidize it using revenue from the development it has enabled.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Academy got cut off from running the local routes because they were not actually running all the trips that they were contractually supposed to be running and the state got sick of the scam.

Other private operators like Decamp and Coach USA (aka ONE Bus) are in the process of ending all their public bus routes and now only doing charter routes, because they're not profitable for them anymore. They also received state subsidies in the form of free leased buses to use on their commuter routes.

The only reason they lasted so long was receiving government subsidies, which were only given in the first place because NJ Transit is legally prohibited from competing with private bus companies.

The very fact that there are "trips that they were contractually supposed to be running" diminishes the private-ness of the business model.

NJ has two different business models for the private bus operators. Academy's routes were NJ transit "owned" routes which were contracted out to private companies to run for a fixed term, which isn't unusual. What is unique to NJ are the private routes "owned" by private companies, like the Coach USA ONE BUS routes which are going extinct in the next few weeks. Those routes were not run under any contract with NJ Transit, and the private companies chose their own fares and schedules. I think this situation is now extremely rare in the US, especially for local city bus routes. NJ Transit was not allowed to compete and run their own service on these lines because it's prohibited by their charter. So instead they opted to lease free buses to these companies.

[roadman65]

https://gothamist.com/news/mta-asks-to-joins-federal-lawsuit-to-fight-new-jersey-over-congestion-pricing

MTA is joining the feds against NJ over congestion pricing lawsuits.

[kalvado]

Academy got cut off from running the local routes because they were not actually running all the trips that they were contractually supposed to be running and the state got sick of the scam.

Other private operators like Decamp and Coach USA (aka ONE Bus) are in the process of ending all their public bus routes and now only doing charter routes, because they're not profitable for them anymore. They also received state subsidies in the form of free leased buses to use on their commuter routes.

The only reason they lasted so long was receiving government subsidies, which were only given in the first place because NJ Transit is legally prohibited from competing with private bus companies.

The very fact that there are "trips that they were contractually supposed to be running" diminishes the private-ness of the business model.

It's a sticky situation.  Heavy government investment seems to be the only way to make a public transit network actually work well.  But, as soon as the government takes the reins, it becomes responsible to the public for how it spends their money, therefore it seeks to trim the budget as much as it can.  So the government shares a bed with private enterprise, and in the process limiting the very freedom and flexibility that makes private enterprise an attractive solution in the first place.

Amtrak anyone?

I still remember when certain Pace bus routes (Chicago suburban bus service) started getting contracted out to Laidlaw and First Student, and they ran a lot of those schedules with yellow school buses.  The paper timetables said all Pace buses had bike racks, yet none of those yellow buses had bike racks.

Just keep it public.  It's providing a public service that will never be profitable, which shouldn't be a goal anyway.

It shouldn't be a major profit center, true. But being more or less close to breakeven is a good idea - for roads (yes, gas taxes), power, water, sewer etc. Otherwise those pretty expensive things end up in disrespect and disrepair.
Case in point, MTA farebox doesn't cover MTA payroll.  That's anything but healthy, from my perspective.

This is a pretty narrow way of looking at such things. Transportation, whichever its type, enables development and commerce. Fuel taxes come nowhere near maintaining all the roads in the country; much of the money comes from property, income, and other sales taxes. New York wouldn't have nearly the same taxbase as it has now if not for the MTA; it's much better to allow the MTA to be affordable to use and to subsidize it using revenue from the development it has enabled.

Thanks for the boilerplate response.
How much growth occurred in NYC despite the stagnant MTA system falling into disrepair? Is NYC further growth actually a good idea at all?
Nothing is truly free - and money for transportation coming from elsewhere are still more or less the same money as would be collected at the farebox, but with inefficiencies and bureaucracy stapled on top.

[LilianaUwU]

I guess extortion is now legal.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/mta-board-approves-nyc-congestion-pricing-plan-what-to-know-about-tolls-exemptions-and-more/4926113/

[1995hoo]

This paragraph appears to answer my question further up the thread about driving into the zone, parking for a few days in a garage, and then leaving—apparently, that will incur only one charge upon the initial entry. I wonder if it really means what it appears to say, though, because this would seem to leave a giant loophole for someone already in the zone to drive to other locations within the zone—say, driving from the Financial District to Madison Square Garden—without paying.

Drivers would only be charged to enter the zone, not to leave it or stay in it. That means that residents who enter the CBD and circle their block to look for parking won't be charged.

[The Ghostbuster]

If Manhattan's congestion pricing plan is successful (from a congestion-reduction standpoint), I wouldn't be surprised if it spread to NYC's bridges, tunnels, freeways, and parkways. Since New York's road system can't be expanded without massive condemning of homes and businesses, congestion pricing may be the only option to reduce congestion on NYC's road system.

[kalvado]

If Manhattan's congestion pricing plan is successful (from a congestion-reduction standpoint), I wouldn't be surprised if it spread to NYC's bridges, tunnels, freeways, and parkways. Since New York's road system can't be expanded without massive condemning of homes and businesses, congestion pricing may be the only option to reduce congestion on NYC's road system.

Millenials are now inventing tolls?

[vdeane]

If Manhattan's congestion pricing plan is successful (from a congestion-reduction standpoint), I wouldn't be surprised if it spread to NYC's bridges, tunnels, freeways, and parkways. Since New York's road system can't be expanded without massive condemning of homes and businesses, congestion pricing may be the only option to reduce congestion on NYC's road system.

Note that the current plan actually exempts a freeway - FDR Drive, to be specific.

[mrsman]

While it is nice to see some level of toll crediting being proposed, a far more comprehensive tolling structure change is needed to make this more fair.

This means that all NYC toll crossings need to be adjusted.

Lincoln and Holland Tunnels should be $5 more expensive than the other PA crossings.  Those crossing at Lincoln/Holland should not incur any additional fees, but those using the other crossings and then further driving into CBD should pay more at the additional crossing point.

MTA East River crossings should all be one-way, charged as you leave Brooklyn/Queens.  The rates are currently too high.  They should be lowered and should be time dependent (rush hours are higher than off-peak and even less if traveling between midnight and 5 am).  Each crossing should charge a basic toll, but the following connections should be completely free:

Battery tunnel to either FDR or West Side Highway
Brooklyn Bridge to FDR
Queensboro Bridge (either level) to Upper East Side*

* This may necessitate moving the charging boundary to 57th street for 1st and 2nd Ave so that there if free travel between Queens and the Upper East Side in both directions on both levels.

Beyond the basic toll, any travel on a crossing that leads into Manhattan CBD shuold be subject to the surcharge.  All travel on Manhattan Bridge, Williamsburg Bridge, Midtown Tunnel, Brooklyn Bridge (except to FDR), and Batter Tunnel (except to FDR or WS Hwy) and all travel crossing the 60th street boundary should be subject to the exact same tolling structure.

So if the basic toll on a non-Manhattan crossing is $5, add an additional $5 charge on any of the above crossings to account for the congestion.

[vdeane]

I wouldn't be surprised if travel in the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels incurs the charge no matter what, as they don't have direct connections to West Street; traveling local streets for 3-4 blocks is required.

I agree that moving the boundary south to accommodate travel to/from the upper part of Manhattan on the Queensboro Bridge is a good idea.

[Alps]

I wouldn't be surprised if travel in the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels incurs the charge no matter what, as they don't have direct connections to West Street; traveling local streets for 3-4 blocks is required.

I agree that moving the boundary south to accommodate travel to/from the upper part of Manhattan on the Queensboro Bridge is a good idea.

but they can make so much money off Qboro Bridge traffic if they don't!

anyway, note that Holland/Lincoln is a different agency, and you really can't collect tolls for two agencies at a single point, so you will not see an increased toll for those tunnels - you will just incur an additional toll once your car comes out the other side.

[1995hoo]

^^^^

Sure you can. You just have to get the agencies to cooperate and then program the electronics to keep track of it. The Dulles Greenway in Virginia is privately owned and operated. Traffic going straight through from VDOT's Dulles Toll Road onto the Dulles Greenway pays an extra toll compared to people entering the Greenway from I-366 VA-28. The extra amount represents the cost of "exiting" the Dulles Toll Road. But it's all collected at the Greenway toll plaza in a single transaction to avoid having two toll plazas back-to-back in quick succession. It's surely feasible to connect the tunnel toll and the congestion charge if the agencies cooperate. I have no idea, however, what sort of programming is involved or what it would cost to set it up.

[Rothman]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

[jeffandnicole]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

Hotel prices vary widely in NYC to begin with. Sunday nights especially - Hilton and Marriott branded hotels can be had for about $100 plus taxes on occasion.

For the most part, people staying at hotels aren't driving and parking, so it probably won't factor in too much. Not much different than the parking surcharge most garages charge if one had an SUV.

[Alps]

^^^^

Sure you can. You just have to get the agencies to cooperate and then program the electronics to keep track of it. The Dulles Greenway in Virginia is privately owned and operated. Traffic going straight through from VDOT's Dulles Toll Road onto the Dulles Greenway pays an extra toll compared to people entering the Greenway from I-366 VA-28. The extra amount represents the cost of "exiting" the Dulles Toll Road. But it's all collected at the Greenway toll plaza in a single transaction to avoid having two toll plazas back-to-back in quick succession. It's surely feasible to connect the tunnel toll and the congestion charge if the agencies cooperate. I have no idea, however, what sort of programming is involved or what it would cost to set it up.

Hm. I've never heard of any two agencies collecting at a single toll plaza. It's good to know there's an example out there.

[RobbieL2415]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

Hotel prices vary widely in NYC to begin with. Sunday nights especially - Hilton and Marriott branded hotels can be had for about $100 plus taxes on occasion.

For the most part, people staying at hotels aren't driving and parking, so it probably won't factor in too much. Not much different than the parking surcharge most garages charge if one had an SUV.

Frankly, if you're staying in Manhattan, don't drive to get there.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

^^^^

Sure you can. You just have to get the agencies to cooperate and then program the electronics to keep track of it. The Dulles Greenway in Virginia is privately owned and operated. Traffic going straight through from VDOT's Dulles Toll Road onto the Dulles Greenway pays an extra toll compared to people entering the Greenway from I-366 VA-28. The extra amount represents the cost of "exiting" the Dulles Toll Road. But it's all collected at the Greenway toll plaza in a single transaction to avoid having two toll plazas back-to-back in quick succession. It's surely feasible to connect the tunnel toll and the congestion charge if the agencies cooperate. I have no idea, however, what sort of programming is involved or what it would cost to set it up.

There is no way this would happen, because it would be open to political meddling from NJ through the Port Authority.

[Rothman]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

Hotel prices vary widely in NYC to begin with. Sunday nights especially - Hilton and Marriott branded hotels can be had for about $100 plus taxes on occasion.

For the most part, people staying at hotels aren't driving and parking, so it probably won't factor in too much. Not much different than the parking surcharge most garages charge if one had an SUV.

Frankly, if you're staying in Manhattan, don't drive to get there.

Why not?  I've driven into Manhattan and stayed there more than a few times.  Much more convenient than having to take a train out to the burbs or wherever every evening and come back in again.

Even the Marriott Marquis can be reasonably priced.

[Plutonic Panda]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

Hotel prices vary widely in NYC to begin with. Sunday nights especially - Hilton and Marriott branded hotels can be had for about $100 plus taxes on occasion.

For the most part, people staying at hotels aren't driving and parking, so it probably won't factor in too much. Not much different than the parking surcharge most garages charge if one had an SUV.

Frankly, if you're staying in Manhattan, don't drive to get there.

Right because who'd want to take a one seat ride to their destination in the privacy and comfort of a private car. Pft...

[MikeTheActuary]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

Hotel prices vary widely in NYC to begin with. Sunday nights especially - Hilton and Marriott branded hotels can be had for about $100 plus taxes on occasion.

For the most part, people staying at hotels aren't driving and parking, so it probably won't factor in too much. Not much different than the parking surcharge most garages charge if one had an SUV.

Frankly, if you're staying in Manhattan, don't drive to get there.

Right because who'd want to take a one seat ride to their destination in the privacy and comfort of a private car. Pft...

The one-seat private ride is certainly what I'd prefer, if I knew I had a convenient and available parking space at my destination, and if it were faster than the alternatives.

I've driven into Manhattan multiple times.  However, I always find a place to park the car, and rely on either transit or my feet to get around once parked.  It's not worth the hassle to use my own car to get around Manhattan.

[Rothman]

Makes me wonder if hotel prices north of 60th will go up...or if those below 60th will go down.

Hotel prices vary widely in NYC to begin with. Sunday nights especially - Hilton and Marriott branded hotels can be had for about $100 plus taxes on occasion.

For the most part, people staying at hotels aren't driving and parking, so it probably won't factor in too much. Not much different than the parking surcharge most garages charge if one had an SUV.

Frankly, if you're staying in Manhattan, don't drive to get there.

Right because who'd want to take a one seat ride to their destination in the privacy and comfort of a private car. Pft...

The one-seat private ride is certainly what I'd prefer, if I knew I had a convenient and available parking space at my destination, and if it were faster than the alternatives.

I've driven into Manhattan multiple times.  However, I always find a place to park the car, and rely on either transit or my feet to get around once parked.  It's not worth the hassle to use my own car to get around Manhattan.

Yep, that's what I'm talking about.  Sure, on the island you hoof it.  But there's no beating the convenience of not having to commute from some godforsaken place like Secaucus.