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Author Topic: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?  (Read 13076 times)

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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2018, 02:17:14 PM »

And that's why a lot of us still want locking brakes. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
ABS is unquestionably superior on dry and wet roads--it is with winter precipitation that the picture gets cloudy.
If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack.  The underlying reality is that driving for which ABS routinely makes a difference is high-risk driving.

Such as being able to drive safely on snowy roadways rather than not being able to?  Granted, that judgment can be somewhat subjective.

Traction control (2-wheel drive) systems are usually activated by the ABS system on the driving axle's wheels.  It can make a huge difference for starting from a stopped position.  No ABS means no traction control.

In many areas the main roads are well plowed within a day, but the local roads may take several days or more.  Anything that can help negotiate the small percentage of local roads on a trip, so that you can get to the main roads, is welcome.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2018, 03:02:09 PM »

If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack. 
I just pulled the ABS fuse in that situation. Easily reversible, quick, no skills required. 
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J N Winkler

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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2018, 03:39:04 PM »

Such as being able to drive safely on snowy roadways rather than not being able to?  Granted, that judgment can be somewhat subjective.

Traction control (2-wheel drive) systems are usually activated by the ABS system on the driving axle's wheels.  It can make a huge difference for starting from a stopped position.  No ABS means no traction control.

In many areas the main roads are well plowed within a day, but the local roads may take several days or more.  Anything that can help negotiate the small percentage of local roads on a trip, so that you can get to the main roads, is welcome.

What I mean is that when the ABS actuates, it indicates the car is right at the edge of its performance envelope for the given conditions.  The same is also true of traction control.

It is more consistent with a layered approach to safety that includes avoidance of risk compensation to treat ABS as an added resource for accident prevention, rather than as a device for expanding mobility under poor driving conditions.  I personally try to drive well within the performance envelope, keeping in mind that ice can cut tire/pavement friction by a factor of ten.  With the exception of deliberate tests, generally by jumping on the brakes on a snow- or ice-coated side street, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have had the ABS actuate.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PM »

Such as being able to drive safely on snowy roadways rather than not being able to?  Granted, that judgment can be somewhat subjective.
Traction control (2-wheel drive) systems are usually activated by the ABS system on the driving axle's wheels.  It can make a huge difference for starting from a stopped position.  No ABS means no traction control.
In many areas the main roads are well plowed within a day, but the local roads may take several days or more.  Anything that can help negotiate the small percentage of local roads on a trip, so that you can get to the main roads, is welcome.
What I mean is that when the ABS actuates, it indicates the car is right at the edge of its performance envelope for the given conditions.  The same is also true of traction control.
It is more consistent with a layered approach to safety that includes avoidance of risk compensation to treat ABS as an added resource for accident prevention, rather than as a device for expanding mobility under poor driving conditions.  I personally try to drive well within the performance envelope, keeping in mind that ice can cut tire/pavement friction by a factor of ten.  With the exception of deliberate tests, generally by jumping on the brakes on a snow- or ice-coated side street, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have had the ABS actuate.

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.

The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.

This obviously depends on how slippery these roads are at the time, but winter driving can often involve a small percentage of a trip's roads that have problems, when the vast percentage of a trip's roads may be decent.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2018, 11:28:44 AM »

And that's why a lot of us still want locking brakes. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.

ABS is unquestionably superior on dry and wet roads--it is with winter precipitation that the picture gets cloudy.

If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack.  The underlying reality is that driving for which ABS routinely makes a difference is high-risk driving.
Then maybe a better long-term solution is to tighten road test requirements for licensing. Stop letting people who can't demonstrate proper evasive braking techniques get licensed.
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J N Winkler

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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2018, 12:13:47 PM »

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.

The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.

I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared.  The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.

The majority of my ABS and traction control actuations have indeed been on subdivision roads, but neither has noticeably reduced the likelihood that I get stuck.  The north end of my street tends to develop drifts when there is a lot of snow on the ground and I have gotten stuck there both in an old RWD car with no ABS or traction control and in a much newer FWD car with both ABS and stability control.  The last time this happened, about seven years ago, I actually walked up with a snow shovel and tried to blade off enough snow within the intersection throat to reduce the likelihood of vehicles getting stuck.

Admittedly, though, these are all level roads, and intersection throats tend to be problematic even when there is no drifting, because the city's usual approach toward addressing drainage without nearby storm drain inlets is to run the street crossfall off into a concrete slab that is essentially a very shallow basin.  When temperatures are above freezing, traffic passing by simply splashes water out and it evaporates over time, but in cold weather this mechanism doesn't work unless the albedo is sufficiently reduced that the sun will melt snow or ice by heating the pavement underneath.

This obviously depends on how slippery these roads are at the time, but winter driving can often involve a small percentage of a trip's roads that have problems, when the vast percentage of a trip's roads may be decent.

The main reason I like having ABS is an incident that happened many years ago when I was trying to find a business alongside an arterial that had a five-lane curb-and-gutter section with center turn lane and 40 limit.  This was in winter, but the weather was sunny and the roads were clear and dry.  I knew the business was on the left, so my eyes were locked in a side-of-the-road search pattern and I failed to see a stopped car in front of me until it was almost too late.  I jumped on the brakes, ABS deployed, and the pedal kept pulsating until I just barely tapped the back bumper of the car in front.  Neither vehicle was left with any noticeable marks.  If the car I was then driving had not had ABS, stopping distance would have been longer, and although I don't think any person in either car would have been injured, both cars would assuredly have needed body work.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2018, 01:30:06 PM »

Getting stuck and braking are separate issues in my thinking.  Getting stuck is a matter of not being able to maintain speed, whereas ABS only helps to diminish your speed.  Rule #1 of winter driving is to never come to a complete stop.

Of course, if you get into an accident because you couldn't stop in time, then I suppose that could qualify as getting stuck...
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2018, 01:43:43 PM »

Getting stuck and braking are separate issues in my thinking.  Getting stuck is a matter of not being able to maintain speed, whereas ABS only helps to diminish your speed.  Rule #1 of winter driving is to never come to a complete stop.

Yes, they are separate issues, and this is part of the reason I don't regard ABS or traction control as panaceas for winter driving.  On the other hand, I would not consider disabling either, as many people in the snowbelt do.  I consider that in the absence of risk compensation, ABS confers an added layer of safety, and while traction control will not free a stuck car, it will help protect the differential from damage.  Having one drive wheel spin while the other stays fixed is a recipe for a grenading differential pin.

The snowbelt is a different country altogether:  one with separate sets of winter wheels, "winter beaters," engine block heaters, dipstick heaters, battery warmers, battery maintainers, synthetic oil and ATF chosen for the lowest pour points available, rusted brake lines, rusted engine cradles, aftermarket underbody treatments, and a desperate lust for salvaged underbody parts from Arizona.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2018, 05:23:50 PM »

Getting stuck and braking are separate issues in my thinking.  Getting stuck is a matter of not being able to maintain speed, whereas ABS only helps to diminish your speed.  Rule #1 of winter driving is to never come to a complete stop.

That is a goal, and you can plan ahead for the next quarter mile or so as you drive, but I can't always come to a complete stop, such as at a traffic light, sometimes you have to come to a complete stop.  Likewise when you are parked you are by definition stopped, and that is where traction control can be helpful.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2018, 01:38:12 PM »

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared.  The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.

That is not good at all.  Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
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J N Winkler

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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2018, 01:49:20 PM »

That is not good at all.  Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.

We are expected to pull on our big boy pants and deal with it, so that the mill levy can remain at the same level it has been since 1994.  And actually the tax take is now capped in nominal terms (meaning a vote is required to raise it, except for public safety and certain other exempt purposes), which translates to a slightly but steadily decreasing millage.

Some of the outlying cities, such as Bel Aire, do plow subdivision roads.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2018, 02:03:42 PM »

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared.  The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.

That is not good at all.  Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.

I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2018, 02:38:51 PM »

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared.  The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all.  Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.

Wichita, KS?  They don't get more snow than central VA?  We had a 17-inch storm last year.  There have been a number of storms in the 8 to 12 inch range in the last 20 years, and several that were 15 inches or more.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2018, 03:01:49 PM »

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared.  The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all.  Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.

Wichita, KS?  They don't get more snow than central VA?  We had a 17-inch storm last year.  There have been a number of storms in the 8 to 12 inch range in the last 20 years, and several that were 15 inches or more.

I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen.  I've only lived here for ten years.  But, if it does happen, it's exceedingly rare.  Now that I think about it, there might have been 15" on the ground three years ago, but that was definitely the worst I'd ever seen.  I managed to get to work that day, although I was admittedly 45 minutes late because I-135 shut down while I was on it and I had to find a detour.  But Wichita, by and large, is pretty flat, so getting out of your neighborhood means you only have to plow through a few blocks of snow before making it out onto the main road.  Having to do so up and down hills isn't the norm here.  Ice is more our problem than snow is.

Snow here is definitely hit or miss.  You say you got a 17-inch storm last year?  It didn't snow in Wichita at all in 2017.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2018, 03:03:47 PM »

Yes, Wichita.  I think the last time we had a foot of accumulation, if ever, was in the late 1970's.  We did have very heavy snow in the winter of 2012-2013, including one storm that dropped about six inches in Wichita proper (I shoveled twice within a few hours, to keep lifts to three inches maximum) and much more in parts of central Kansas that are within an hour's drive.  Highways were closed, the National Guard was deployed, etc.

In terms of mobility within my subdivision, the winter of 2010-2011 was worse, because the snow was accompanied by heavy wind and the prevailing winds tend to deposit drifts across the tee intersections at either end of my street.  In February 2011 my mother, who was recovering from two major surgeries followed by a bout of severe sepsis, had to be taken to the hospital by ambulance when she got severely dehydrated due to electrolyte imbalance.  It had just snowed, and although the driveway was clear, EMS ended up dispatching two ambulances as well as an aid car because the first ambulance got stuck in a drift at the north end of our street.  I later got stuck in the same drift and that is when I took a shovel and tried to clear away enough of the dirty snow so that vehicles would have at least a fighting chance of not getting stuck while slowing down to negotiate the turn.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2018, 03:09:52 PM »

For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared.  The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all.  Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.
Wichita, KS?  They don't get more snow than central VA?  We had a 17-inch storm last year.  There have been a number of storms in the 8 to 12 inch range in the last 20 years, and several that were 15 inches or more.
I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen.  I've only lived here for ten years.  But, if it does happen, it's exceedingly rare.  Now that I think about it, there might have been 15" on the ground three years ago, but that was definitely the worst I'd ever seen.  I managed to get to work that day, although I was admittedly 45 minutes late because I-135 shut down while I was on it and I had to find a detour.  But Wichita, by and large, is pretty flat, so getting out of your neighborhood means you only have to plow through a few blocks of snow before making it out onto the main road.  Having to do so up and down hills isn't the norm here.  Ice is more our problem than snow is.
Snow here is definitely hit or miss.  You say you got a 17-inch storm last year?  It didn't snow in Wichita at all in 2017.

The average annual snowfall here is not that much, there have been some years with nothing.  My experience with sedans is that beyond 6 or 7 inches even on a flat grade things can get dicey, plus many streets are barely wide enough to handle that much snow as well as two vehicles meeting oncoming.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2018, 03:18:46 PM »

Now that I think about it, there might have been 15" on the ground three years ago, but that was definitely the worst I'd ever seen.

We did have very heavy snow in the winter of 2012-2013, including one storm that dropped about six inches in Wichita proper (I shoveled twice within a few hours, to keep lifts to three inches maximum) and much more in parts of central Kansas that are within an hour's drive.  Highways were closed, the National Guard was deployed, etc.

That might be the one I remember, not three years ago.  I don't keep years straight in my head very well.  As I recall, we got a 12-inch snowfall followed the next day or two by a 3-inch snowfall.  I made it to work OK in our minivan (heavy front wheel drive), but it took about a week for all the ice to melt off the undercarriage from where it had scraped along the snow the whole way to work.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2018, 04:01:53 PM »

I have gone back through my old forum posts and I see that the snowstorm we are thinking of began at 3 AM on February 20, 2013.  The initial fall was six inches at a rate of two inches per hour, which badly strained state- and city-owned snow clearance assets.  Eventually we had fourteen inches, which was deemed the second heaviest on record, just behind a fifteen-incher on January 17-18, 1962.

In a number of forum posts I talked about having to do lifts of more than three inches on various parts of the driveway, especially the apron, which had accumulated nine inches by the time I could get to it.  I reported having spoil heaps as high as my chin and having to lift shovelfuls quite high so I could tip them behind the nearest heap, which was necessary to avoid having the snow avalanche back down onto the cleared surface.  I also established that three inches is the maximum for shoveling in windrows; with deeper lifts you are looking at pilot trenches and a job that takes longer per inch cleared (e.g., six inches takes a lot longer than twice the time for three inches).  When the sun comes out, a thin but cohesive ice layer forms on top of powdered snow, which results in slabbing and chunking when you attempt to shovel.  I had to deal with this, as well as cutting through two spoil heaps, when I finally got to the nine-inch accumulation on the sidewalks.

The road network was essentially unusable for about 36 hours and at our local supermarket we noticed shortages attributable to late or cancelled deliveries, e.g. no house-brand 1% milk.

Besides the snowstorm that began on February 20, there was a smaller follow-up storm on February 25 that was dispatched pretty quickly but still drove the February snowfall accumulation to a record-setting 21.5 inches.  In the vicinity of Hutchinson, snowfall that February totaled 40 inches, forcing extended road closures and National Guard deployments.

In Wichita, the two February snowstorms were followed several days later by an extended thaw.  It took 17 days from the first snowflake to disappearance of the last patch of packed dirty snow in the spoil heaps on the lawn.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2018, 04:27:37 PM »

↑  Yep, that's the one.  I found the conversation.

three-hour period starting at 3 AM when snow was falling at a rate of two inches an hour. 

By 9:00 this morning, our crew in Kansas City already had four stuck work trucks and one wrecked, and the rest of their work for the day has all been rescheduled.

The owner of the company told me, ”˜You did great, getting here in that minivan.’  Are you kidding?  Other than ground clearance issues (my battery connections got wet two blocks from my house), I'd much rather have a heavy front-wheel drive minivan than some RWD pickup in this stuff.  All in all, I really didn't worry about getting stuck except when I was behind vehicles that were getting stuck.

Funny how I now drive a rear-wheel-drive vehicle.  Granted, it has 4WD, but I keep forgetting I need to use that in winter weather.  I'm still used to the handling I had in the van.

↓  Here are the pictures I took on the canal route (before they closed it) on my way to work, that no longer display because Photobucket is a brat.



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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2018, 07:28:50 PM »

And that's why a lot of us still want locking breaks. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
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kphoger

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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2024, 02:12:10 PM »

Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.

I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.

If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS?  If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.

You can apply same logic to seatbelts, which were not present in Ford-T.  Where is my seatbelt discount?

Are you certain it doesn't cost extra to insure a car without seat belts?

Pretty sure I get a discount on my insurance because I state I use a seatbelt every time I drive. If my car didn't have seatbelts, I wouldn't be able to claim that discount, so, yeah, it still exists.

To make it clear, I never said an ABS discount didn't exist. I just said that I thought it would eventually be on its way out, likely to be replaced by a (not necessarily obvious on your statement) penalty for driving without ABS.

Insurance corporations still need to make money. They aren't going to make money by endlessly incentivising every safety feature. They will at first, because they know it's good PR, but once they become standard features, they'll eventually just start to penalise those who don't have the feature.

Well, here we are, six years later.  My new daily driver did not come equipped with ABS.  When we added the car to our insurance policy, one of the questions on the form asked if it has ABS or not.  I assume it affected our rate.
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Re: Are anti-lock brakes overrated?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2024, 09:38:28 PM »

I wonder how good of a check they have on it through the VIN.
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